A question about the Bible

[Liina]

I have been wondering about one specific thing in the bible for some time and nobody has been able to answer (I haven´t asked from priests though). So I was thinking that mybe you could say what you think about it.
Okay, here comes the question. The bible starts with god creating the world and then there`s the fall of Adam and Eve. They were the first people that god created right? (I hope I`m not missing something) They had two SONS - Kain and Abel (I`m not sure how the names are in english). How could all humans descend from them?????? There`s no logic or maybe I`m missing some additional people that god created. Did Kain and Abel had children with their mother or what? Just tell me what do you people think.

[Taliesin]

If I am not mistaken, Adam and Eve had other children too. I remember one who was called Set or smth.
Particularry, I have heard quite an interesting interpretation of the story.
It claims that Kain and Abel were two tribes; Kain was the farmer's tribe and Abel was the animal herders tribe. (you know, Kain was a farmer and Abel an animal herder) The murder of Abel was supposed to mean the killing of herders by the farmer's so that they could get more land. The story was the herder's tribe propaganda against the farmers.

[Liina]

Really hmm...I didn`t know that they had other children. Thanks for enlightening me:) But it`s still gross - then we all descend from marriages between relatives....*tries not to picture it*

I guess the bible can be interpreted in many ways, the stories are supposed to be symbolistic anyway.

[crisaor]

As you say, is meant to be symbolic. Taliesin just mentioned a good explanation. Another one could be that the Bible cites Adam and Eve as the first humans, but it doesn't say anywhere that they were the only humans God ever created (admittedly, it doesn't say he did, but it's another possible explanation). Another one is that humanity originated from incest, although I'm not too comfortable about this one.

[Miranda]

There are two accounts of the creation of mankind in Genesis. In chapter one, it says ''God said, 'let us make man in our own image, after our likeness...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God, created he him; male and female created he them.' If this were the only account in the bible, the answer to the question would be simple..God created many men and women, not just a man and then a woman..as happens in the second account of the creation of man in Genesis chapter 2.

Here it says 'God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.' Then in verse 18 'And the Lord God said, 'It is not good that man shall be alone, I will make him a help meet for him.' And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.'...'but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; and the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto man.'

I really think that God made many men and women, but that he took Adam and put him in the garden of Eden and made him and then Eve special because God breathed His spirit into them and so they became spiritual beings. I think this is the sense in which they were in 'God's image.' - but these are only my own thoughts and I may well be wrong. Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden after they fell..and so I think maybe had to live with the rest of mankind that were really wild and uncivilised. After Cain murders Abel, he is sent out of God's presence to be a 'fugitive and a vagabond' and goes to live in the Land of Nod - where he it says, 'he knew his wife' and she concieved'. So it seems that Cain got his wife from the Land of Nod..and there is no hint of incest in his story. I think the answer is that there were other men and women beside Adam and Eve but that they were made special by God who put them in Eden.

In Genesis chapter 4, it says men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born to them...and that the 'sons of God' saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.' I think that 'sons of God 'where descendants of Adam and Eve..started to take wives of the 'daughters of men'..which were 'mankind' that had been outside of Eden.

We have laws that protect against intermarriage now, and traditions bred into our thinking that make incest abhorrent to us.. but maybe in ancient times it wasnt so abhorrent. Sarah was actually Abraham's half sister. She was his father's daughter though they had a different mother.

Lot was Abraham's nephew and after Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed, he lives alone in a cave on a deserted plain with his two daughters who realise that there are no men that they can marry and have children by. So they decide get their father drunk and each concieves a child by him.. Moab and Ben-am-mi who became the founders of the Moabites and the Ammonite nations. What is unacceptable to us now was maybe more acceptable in ancient times and incest was maybe not thought of as being as bad then as it seems to us now.

These are only my own thoughts and suppositions on this subject and I can't prove any of them and maybe other Christians would not agree with them

[Liina]

Geez, MIranda, have you learned the bible by heart.... :cool: Anyway, thanks for a good explanation. I admit I have thought about this myself as well but as I haven`t really bothered to take the bible and read all parts concerning this theme, I didn`t believe it. But after reading your quotations of the necessary parts in the bible, it seems logical. But on the other hand, the bible is an illogical piece of writing..... But - thanks you for enlightening me:)

[Miranda]

Well its just my opinon Liina, based on how I interpret the bible. I don't know it by heart, but I know roughly where to find things. It's like any other book, if your read it enough, you get familiar with it. I don't find it an illogical book, though some parts are hard to understand and I don't pretend to understand it all - but I do believe it.

[sycho_warrior]

Well, in my opinion, only Adam and Eve were created and from them everyone descends, remember, later on everybody drowns in the flood, only Noah and his family is left, ONLY them, so its quite possible that only Adam and Eve was created

[Miranda]

Could you answer the original question then, S.W - where did Cain get his wife from? Did he make love to his sister? Or his mother?

[sycho_warrior]

sister would be my guess, in that spesific time, God would have allowed it I think, it just doesnt make sense that He would create multiple people and only tell about two. I could be wrong though, in general I dont think/talk about stuff like this because it causes unnecessary strife and arguments.

[Miranda]

I agree S.W that it may not have at that time wrong for Cain to make love to his sister and he might have had a sister for his wife. As I understand it, genealogies didnt always often include daughters, unless there was some specific reason so Cain and Abel could have had a sister. I think that God made other people, but made Adam and Eve special and had a special relationship with them - but this is just a matter of opinion as you say S.W and I too could be wrong.

I understand what you mean about avoiding talking about controversial stuff like this - I have been on quite a few Christian sites where discussions between people have got quite heated and not very nice at all. I am not a member of any of these sites now, though I like discussing the bible. I found that many people have closed minds and tend to go on the attack against those whose views differ from their own. But I like discussing things in a thoughtful way and though I have my own views, I enjoy considering those of others too and looking at things from different directions. Debate should be a two way thing but sometimes it develops into argument when one person insists their view is the only one there is and refuses to accept the other's right to hold an opposing one - and the result is as you say unnecesary strife, which is a real shame.

[Liina]

But going back to my original question...Why aren`t other people, who were created with Adam and Eve, mentioned in the bible then if they existed (IF)? Correct me if I`m wrong but wasn`t there in the bible said something like ...on the sixth day god created a man and a woman... (I`m not quoting) - it wasn`t mentioned that there were other people created as well.

The bible is full of controversies and as I don`t really believe in those stories as real events then I like looking for these controversies and arguing about them. That doesn`t mean that I don`t respect other people`s beliefs though.

Oh, and if romantic relationships between brothers and sisters were allowed then why do we concider them unacceptable at present although religion and the bible are thought to be important sources of morality? (I`m not saying that such relationaships are good or anything) And if all humaity descends from a brother-sister marriage then are we all supposed to be retarded? I know that the big flood was in between of adam and eve and us but noah was also a descendant of adam and eve so...Anyway I`m interested what do you people think of it?

[Miranda]

Liina,
As I said there are two stories of the creation of mankind in the bible..first is in Genesis 1 Vs 26. And God said 'let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them and said unto them, 'Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth, and subdue it and have dominion over the
fish of the sea...

In Genesis 2: Vs 7 is the story of Adam being made out of the dust of the ground: vs 21 tells how God realising Adam's need for a partner of his own kind, creates Eve using Adam's rib.

For me both stories are true - the first is the general way in which God created man and the second is more specific.

Sometimes you can read the same story in different newspapers and they all differ in some way - but they still tell the truth, often depending on how the writer percieved the situation. Why shouldn't some of the bible be like this?

I showed you in my other posts why I believe that there were people created other than Adam and Eve..but sw's view is equally valid and niether of us know for definate - yet both of us still believe and trust what the bible says - I apologise to sw, if I have misunderstood this.

I can see Liina that you do respect other peoples beliefs and not believing them doesn't mean you can't discuss them - it's good to be challenged sometimes and I enjoy talking about these things.

You said 'Why aren`t other people, who were created with Adam and Eve, mentioned in the bible then if they existed (IF)? ' I think they are mentioned here:' and that the 'sons of God' saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose.' I think that the 'daughters of men,' were the daughters of mankind that were not related to Adam and eve, - but these are only as I said, my own thoughts and interpretations I cannot prove them. Lots of Christians won't agree with my view - but thats okay, I might be wrong - but so might they. It is not actually so very important - belief in God and having faith in Him, loving Him and one another, is much more essential.

Can I ask you a different question Liina..where does morality come from?

The laws that govern marriage between 'next of kin' are in Leviticus 18 if you want to look them up in a bible. But these laws were instituted a long time after Adam and Eve, after Israel had become a great nation - and there were other nations round about. So in the beginning such relationships were not 'illegal'. They are certainly illegal now though - not only in the bible, but in the laws that govern our lands - so why is this? Where does this morality come from because it isn't just a question of legality? There is something within most of us that makes incestuous relationships abhorrent. Where does this originate?

I don't take the story of the flood literally. There is evidence of such a great flood in the area of Mesopotamia and I believe that it happened, but that it didn't cover all the earth, only that area. If everyone created then lived in that area, it was possible for them all to be destroyed except for Noah and his family. But I've never looked at this in great detail and again I could be wrong and some christians would shoot me down in flames for saying such a thing.

[Liina]

Miranda,
There`s one thing I`d like to say: I don`t believe in the stories of the bible - to me they have never happened and I totally believe in Darwin`s theory of origin of spieces but as many people do believe in the bible and it is the base of nowadays western world, I just like to discuss it.

You migt be right about the other people created with Adam and Eve. I can`t argue with you on this because I haven`t read the bible and I can`t possibly find those paragraphs you have quoted. Basically, I`m unable to find proofs from the bible right now and therefore I just rely on the knowledge I have. You have a good point because it is much more logical that there were other people in the world too besides adam and eve.

About morality now. Bible is the basis of the western world as I already said before and people have followed the laws of the bible for about 2000 years, therefore they must believe in them. The morality that comes from the bible is good but unfortunately the people who should follow it the most and teach it to the others too, don`t really care about it. I`m telling about the clergy. Maybe the laws were too strict - taking place of the Reformation shows it but the basic moral has remained (10 commandments for example) We should follow it because it is humane to do so but we don`t - we steal, we kill, we cheat and so on and so on (I`m talking generally, not about me or you specifically). THAT shows the real "respect" for the bible and its laws. So, where does morality come from? From people who are the most immoral I would say. It used to come from the bible but now....many things have changed radically in the last centuries.
The disgust for brother-sister marriages has also developed in the last centuries - in the middle ages and also in the 17-18 century people always married to their relatives and it was concidered normal. So, what I want to say, is that people invent laws and objects to disgust and put them on the bible`s account. Thus we can say that nowadays` morality comes from people rather than from the bible.

Okay, now I have really gone far away from the original theme of this thread but I don`t mind as the thread was started by me. Feel free to talk about other things related (...or not....:P) to the original theme in this thread, I don`t mind:)

[seeker]

The general theory I have heard pertaining to the origin of females after creation is based on the idea that man was genetically perfect up to the point of the fall.

Therefore inbreeding was not a problem, at least not right away. So, unles Gos did create other humans not mentioned, then the only other girls around were Adams daughters, at least for a couple of generations.

Socially it is seen as vugar, and rightly so as it dabases a healthy relationship with siblings and parents, and this is drilled into most children because today we know that inbreeding causes deformities. But back then it may not have. The genetic pool, according to this theory, was literally perfect, with only the potential to fail, which given time, it began to do, probably about the time Moses was given the 10 commandments, as this was the when the Hebrews began to enforce the regulations against marrying relatives.

Hope that helped, and didnt confuse you!

†
pura vida
dan

[Hephzibah]

What my understanding is ~

Not everything is written out...as the world could not hold all that was experienced...and so just main things are spoken of.

There is a place in Genesis where it talks about the 'other' people.

Genesis 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Connotating they were not the only ones.

Then it jumps right to Cain and his 'new' place to live and his life there, marriage etc:

Genesis 4:16-17 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

It then begins to name more people...but they must have been around earlier too.

Hope this helps.

[Liina]

Hmm...really....well, might be...

[Johnmc]

Actually insest was pretty common in ancient times, There is a story in the old testiment about two daughters who get their father drunk so they can... well you get the picture. Anyway, Adam and eve actually had many children;

After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.(Genesis 5:4)

Seth is actually Noah's great, great, great, great ,great, great grandfather.

And really, if you look at it from a biblical perspective we are all descended from the same family. In fact, when God led the jewish people from Egypt, they were strongly discouraged from marrying outside the community, a community that was closely related. They were not discouraged out of racist motive as some would claim however, but because the practices of the neighboring peoples were incompatible with God's commandments, and those who married outside the jewish faith were often tempted to adopt their ways.