Zoroastrianism

[quasimodo1]

"Zoroastrianism is the oldest of the revealed world-religions, and it has probably had more influence on mankind, directly and indirectly, than any other single faith." Mary Boyce. ..........I don't give this thread much of a chance for longevity but the topic has always intrigued me. It originated in the middle east about 6000 bce which dwarfs in age most other religious systems. Just was hoping a few people might post what they know. quasimodo1

[genoveva]

A friend of mine follows this religion. Here's his website with links:
efn.org/~opal/stevezphotos.htm

[quasimodo1]

The Zarathushtrian Creed is: "Good Thoughts, Good Words and Good Deeds" This is a great site, genoveva. The Hitites (not the Amish-simular group in the USA) from the middle east practiced this religion. I guess they didn't practice enough because thier history is in part warlike. quasimodo1

[quasimodo1]

avesta.org/other/z2.htm ...this link will supply some good visuals about the world of Zarathushtra and indirectly Zoroastrianism .........."Thee I conceived as holy, O Ahuramazda, when thy Good Thought appeared to me and asked me: 'Who art thou? And whose is thine allegiance?' [...]
Then I answered: 'Zarathustra am I; to the false believers a forthright enemy, but to the righteous a mighty help and joy. [...]
Thee I conceived as holy, O Ahuramazda, when thy Good Thought appeared to me. [...] A difficult thing it seemed to me, to spread thy faith among men, to do that which Thou didst say was best. "
[Yasna 43.4] quasimodo1

[Whifflingpin]

A book that I like is "The Zoroastrian Tradition" by Farhang Mehr. I am not sure that conservative Parsee type Zoroastrians approve of him, but he gives a clear account of the teachings of Zarathustra and the development of Zoroastrianism.

[quasimodo1]

accessnewage.com/articles/mystic/avest.htmlink concerned with the "Avesta" texts which is similar to the bible for Zoroastrianists, most of which was destroyed when the library at Alexandria was burned down. quasimodo1

[one_raven]

It originated in the middle east about 6000 bce which dwarfs in age most other religious systems.

Where did you get that?

Historians place the life of Zoroaster somewhere between 200 and 1100 BCE.
Even Iranians priests don't generally say that it was before 1100 BCE.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

[quasimodo1]

To one-raven: I was a little incredulous at that date also but trusted the site where I read it. It is....religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm If you are sure this is in error, please let me know. Slightly embarrased?? Good to know somebody knows this subject. PM me if you like. quasimodo1

[Whifflingpin]

"Historians place the life of Zoroaster somewhere between 200 and 1100 BCE"

200 BC is absurd, since Zoroaster is decribed by Xanthus, a Greek writer living 300 hundred years before that, as having taught "a long time ago."


Later Greek writers placed Zoroaster between 570BC & 6000BC, both extremes being unlikely.


Linguistically, the Gathas of Zoroaster are about, or maybe slightly earlier than 1800BC. There are however references to chariots, which may date them after 1600BC.

For a discussion on the subject, try cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/Oric.Basirov/zoroaster_time_and_place.htm

Make your choice.

[quasimodo1]

This quote may be accurate, it has the ring of truth but the part about Zoroastrianists having more influence than their numbers suggest, is very appealing. Quote..."While Zoroastrians once dominated an area stretching from what is now Rome and Greece to India and Russia, their global population has dwindled to 190,000 at most, and perhaps as few as 124,000, according to a survey in 2004 by the Fezana Journal The number is imprecise because of wildly diverging counts in Iran, once known as Persia -- the incubator of the faith."

'' 'Survival has become a community obsession,' said Dina McIntyre, an Indian-American lawyer in Chesapeake, Va., who has written and lectured widely on her religion."

"The Zoroastrians' mobility and adaptability has contributed to their demographic crisis. They assimilate and intermarry, virtually disappearing into their adopted cultures. And since the faith encourages opportunities for women, many Zoroastrian women are working professionals who, like many other professional women, have few children or none." 1 ....quasimodo1

[Unbeliever]

Here are some links I have to Zoroastrianism:

users.cyberone.com.au/myers/zoroastrianism.htm
zarathushtra.com/z/article/influenc.htm
hell-on-line.org/AboutZOR.htm

[quasimodo1]

Song 12/Spenta Mainyu/from the Gathas (songs) (speñtâ mainyû vahishtâcâ mananghâ
hacâ ashât shyaothanâcâ vacanghâcâ
ahmâi dãn haurvâtâ ameretâtâ
mazdå xshathrâ ârmaitî ahurô.)

Translated Text:

To him who, through progressive mentality, performs his duties best
in thoughts, words, and deeds in accordance with righteousness,
the Wise God grants wholeness and immortality
through sovereignty and serenity.

(Gathas: Song 12.1)

...

[quasimodo1]

The core of Zoroaster's new teachings appears to have been his apprehension of primeval unity in the sphere of the divine also, a counterpart to the primeval unity already held to have existed for physical things. In the beginning, he taught, there was only one good God, only one divine being worthy to be worshipped, a yazata, namely Ahura Mazda, the Lord Wisdom. At first all divine goodness was comprehended within his person, and plurality and diversity came about only because of the existence also of evil divinity - for together with Ahura Mazda in the beginning, and likewise uncreated, was another being who was opposed to him, the Hostile Spirit, Angra Mainyu. These two Zoroaster saw with prophetic eye at their original encountering: {from Yasna 30} "Now these two spirits, which are twins, revealed themselves at first in a vision. Their two ways of thinking.
users.cyberone.com.au/myers/zoroastrianism.html ...comments from this link.

[quasimodo1]

Frances Power Cobbe, Studies, new and old, of ethical and social subjects:

"Should we in a future world be permitted to hold high converse with the great departed, it may chance that in the Bactrian sage, who lived and taught almost before the dawn of history, we may find the spiritual patriarch, to whose lessons we have owed such a portion of our intellectual inheritance that we might hardly conceive what human belief would be now had Zarathushtra never existed."

FROM: --> zarathushtra.com/z/article/influenc.ht

[quasimodo1]

R.C. Zaehner, The Dawn & Twilight of Zoroastrianism:

P. 20
"Meanwhile in her encounters with the Medes and Persians, Israel had found a kindred monotheistic creed in the religion of Prophet Zarathushtra, and one of her own Prophets, Isaiah, did not hesitate to salute Cyrus, her liberator, as the Lord's anointed. From this religion too she learnt teachings concerning the afterlife altogether more congenial to her soul than had been the gloomy prospect offered her by her own tradition, teachings to which she had been a stranger before."

zarathushtra.com/z/article/influence.htm

[quasimodo1]

There are several later paintings and drawings of the Tree of Life, but this Sumerian Clay tablet (however crude it might appear) is one of the earliest, if not the first. It is among the original Sumerian Cylinders and clay tablets excavated circa 2, 500 BCE.


The ‘Holy Bible'-The Reader's Digest Association Inc., Sydney 1971

The clay tablet is prepared by rolling the carved metal seal on wet clay, which is then baked. Once baked the tablet cannot be altered. The original Sumerian (Indo-Iranian) concept was that wisdom is likened to a tree whose fruit endows those who eat it with health and longevity. The symbol of an elixir of life had already been well established in antiquity by the Indo-Iranian cultures long before Judaism, Christianity, Islam and other cultures had the opportunity to recognise it.
vohuman.org/Article/The%20Sumerian%20Tree%20of%20Life.ht This link is the source. Also image of clay impression of Tree of Life.

[quasimodo1]

Western civilization owes mainly to Zarathustra its fundamental concept of linear time, as opposed to the cyclical and essentially static concept of ancient times. This concept, which was implicit in Zarathustra's doctrines, makes the notion of progress, reform, and improvement possible. Until that time, ancient civilizations, particularly Egyptian, were profoundly conservative, believing that the ideal order had been handed down to them by the gods in some mythical Golden Age. Their task was to adhere to the established traditions as closely as possible. To reform or modify them in any way would have been a deviation from and diminution of the ideal. Zarathustra gave Persian (and through it, Greek) thought a teleological dimension, with a purpose and goal to history. All people, he declared, were participants in a supernatural battle between Good and Evil, the battleground for which was the Earth, and the very body of individual Man as well. This essential dualism was adopted by the Jews, who only after exposure to Zoroastrianism incorporated a demonology and angelology into their religion. Retroactively, what was only a snake in the Genesis tale came to be irrevocably associated with the Devil, and belief in demonic possession came to be a cultural obsession, as amply reflected in the Gospels.

source...infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/4/4zoroa94.htm

[AngelEyes714]

I think one of the biggest contribution that Zoroastrianism has made to the 3 major religions today is the concept of life after death.

It's biggest (by far) contribution was to Christianity in the form of a "world redeemer". The idea of a savior for the world originated in zoroastrian teachings, which explains the literal mentions of a coming messiah starting with Daniel and Isaiah during the babylonian captivity and persian liberation.

I found somewhere a mention that the magi that visited at Jesus' birth could have been zoroastrians. source -historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=754
Now, to spin this around, what if references to a messiah were found earlier in the old testament than Daniel? Judaism and Islam don't split until Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son (Isaac or Ishamel?). So what if there could've been a possible reference to a messiah prior to this?

FYI: There are none, unless you take on looking at some things symbolically. Like the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden (which Quasimodo mentions above) and the Ram in place of Abraham's son.

Yes, all 4 religions have a lot in common, and the 3 obviously echo Zoroastrian beliefs. But what if it wasn't so much of a predator-prey relationship (consume what you want, discard the rest), but more of a symbiotic relationship? What if Zoroastrianism took elements from older Hebrew teachings, reshaped them, and were then re-assimilated into Judaism?

[quasimodo1]

avesta.org/zglos.htm ...useful resource for this thread

[quasimodo1]

Although Zoroastrianism is almost extinct today, it lives on in its spiritual descendants. Zarathustra, a prophet beyond any in the Old Testament, still speaks today, unrecognized by his children.

"Let us worship Zarathustra,
Just the way we used ta.
I'm a Zarathustra boosta--
He's good enough for me."
(Joseph Campbell, with a tongue-in-cheek parody.)

[AngelEyes714]

Ok...here's a big question - did Zarathustra claim to be immortal? Did he claim that HE was worthy of worship?

Seems to me he promoted the worship of the one and only God Ahuramazda.

A prophet is not a god. One is mortal, the other is immortal. And I really don't think they continue to speak to people after they are dead. They don't want "followers of them" but followers of what they are preaching - so Zoroastrians, as I would understand, would be followers of Ahuramazda, following the discipline of Zarathustra.


Thee I conceived as holy, O Ahuramazda, when thy Good Thought appeared to me and asked me: 'Who art thou? And whose is thine allegiance?' [...]
Then I answered: 'Zarathustra am I; to the false believers a forthright enemy, but to the righteous a mighty help and joy. [...]
Thee I conceived as holy, O Ahuramazda, when thy Good Thought appeared to me. [...] A difficult thing it seemed to me, to spread thy faith among men, to do that which Thou didst say was best.
[Yasna 43.4]

He's not promoting faith in himself (Zarathustra), but faith in his god (Ahuramazda).

[quasimodo1]

That's probably the clearest explanation so far, as for this early religion. Personnaly I'm more of an observer and have taken an interest in comparitive religion. The most intersting fascets of Zororastrian faith are it's age and the new linear time and that it created for later religions a couple of core concepts. One being the single overriding deity and the concept of a messiah. Without these, Judaism and Catholicism never would have got off the ground. Thanks for your analysis. quasimodo1

[quasimodo1]

WHEN Zarathustra was thirty years old, he left his home and the lake of his home, and went into the mountains. There he enjoyed his spirit and his solitude, and for ten years did not weary of it. But at last his heart changed,- and rising one morning with the rosy dawn, he went before the sun, and spake thus unto it:

Thou great star! What would be thy happiness if thou hadst not those for whom thou shinest!

For ten years hast thou climbed hither unto my cave: thou wouldst have wearied of thy light and of the journey, had it not been for me, mine eagle, and my serpent.

But we awaited thee every morning, took from thee thine overflow, and blessed thee for it.


Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it.

I would fain bestow and distribute, until the wise have once more become joyous in their folly, and the poor happy in their riches.

Therefore must I descend into the deep: as thou doest in the evening, when thou goest behind the sea, and givest light also to the nether-world, thou exuberant star!

Like thee must I go down, as men say, to whom I shall descend.

Bless me, then, thou tranquil eye, that canst behold even the greatest happiness without envy!

Bless the cup that is about to overflow, that the water may flow golden out of it, and carry everywhere the reflection of thy bliss!

Lo! This cup is again going to empty itself, and Zarathustra is again going to be a man.

Thus began Zarathustra's down-going.







..........fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1891nietzsche-zara.htm

[quasimodo1]

The Zoroastrian Religion, by many perceived to be an ancient Persian religion only, is in fact the First Universal and Monotheist Religion in History.
Restored Zoroastrianism brings the Good Religion back to the World. It is not an oriental mystic sect or cult, but a World Religion for all Mankind.
Suppressed and forgotten by the World during thousands of years, it is time to recall that God was realized in the Profound Teachings of Zoroaster, a thousand and more years before any prophet brought "divine revelations".
Where later prophets described God in rather "human" terms, Zoroaster never did. He realized a Supreme Being, who is independent of being worshipped and obeyed and thus ...
God is not about fear, guilt, torment and condemnation.
Author: Ronald Delavega

FROM: zoroastrianism.cc...........zoroastrianism.cc

[quasimodo1]

INTRODUCTION.
CHAPTER I.
THE DISCOVERY OF THE ZEND-AVESTA.
THE Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty 1, and which has been called Dualism, or Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, according as its main tenet, or its supreme God 2, or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its apparent object of worship has been most kept in view. In less than a century after their defeat, nearly all the conquered people were brought over to the faith of their new rulers, either by force, or policy, or the attractive power of a simpler form of creed. But many of those who clung to the faith of their fathers, went and sought abroad for a new home, where they might freely worship their old gods, say their old prayers, and perform their old rites. That home they found at last among the tolerant Hindus, on the western coast of India and in the peninsula of Guzerat 3. There they throve and there they live still, while the ranks of their co-religionists in Persia are daily thinning and dwindling away 4.

As the Parsis are the ruins of a people, so are their





p. xii

sacred books the ruins of a religion. There has been no other great belief in the world that ever left such poor and meagre monuments of its past splendour. Yet great is the value which that small book, the Avesta, and the belief of that scanty people, the Parsis, have in the eyes of the historian and theologist, as they present to us the last reflex of the ideas which prevailed in Iran during the five centuries which preceded and the seven which followed the birth of Christ, a period which gave to the world the Gospels, the Talmud, and the Qur’ân. Persia, it is known, had much influence on each of the movements which produced, or proceeded from, those three books; she lent much to the first heresiarchs, much to the Rabbis, much to Mohammed. By help of the Parsi religion and the Avesta, we are enabled to go back to the very heart of that most momentous period in the history of religious thought, which saw the blending of the Aryan mind with the Semitic, and thus opened the second stage of Aryan thought.

{dates somewhere between 1080 BCE and 630 BCE}.................................




sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm

[Logos]

Topic closed because there is little to no discussion going on here, it's merely a bunch of copy and pasted stuff and links and promotion of other sites.