are women losing their sense of feminity?

[jon1jt]

Are women losing their sense of femininity?

women are becoming slobs, especially the ones between 18-35 but by no means limited to that age group. i've seen grandmothers behave like out of control children.


what i mean is, women have no class---they curse, yell, spit, smoke, drink beer, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention. just consider Paris Hilton. :lol:


it's not just the outrageous behavior, it rolls up to the level of female professionals who behave like barbarians in the workplace, taking on attitudes and behaviors that were once only assigned to the worst men. some women even pride themselves in having a reputation as a "*itch"


nor have i seen men make spectacles of themselves to the degree women do---not even in the tabloids. it's most often women.

there's a sense in all this that women no longer stand for that divine presence they once possessed, or in the way Chet Baker once sung about them. ahhh.

have you experienced a decline in womanhood? :D

[Virgil]

Jon, you must want to live dangerously. :lol: I thought I was the only fool who would start a thread like this. :lol:

[jon1jt]

Jon, you must want to live dangerously. :lol: I thought I was the only fool who would start a thread like this. :lol:


i figure we could get some some civility from the girls and have a real discussion on a very important subject. because they want to drive the truck doesn't mean they have to act like the truck driver. :lol:

[Lote-Tree]

What is Feminity?

Does that equate with Servility?

[jon1jt]

What is Feminity?

Does that equate with Servility?


no, it equates with decency, respect, class.

this notion of servility has provided the pretext for women to behave not-like-a woman. women have to start fessing up to that harsh truth. you can't have it both ways.

[Lote-Tree]

no, it equates with decency, respect, class.

We should all aspire to these qualities - regardless of gender?

[Mortis Anarchy]

I agree. Why do men get to spit, drink, curse, sleep around? I'm not saying those things are good, but why would gender seperate what a person can do.

I do agree though that a lot of women have lost their classiness or whatever. I love the whole feminine look but being allowed to be there own person. That there isn't restrictions on what a woman can do because she isn't a man!

I think that what you see in the tabloids is a different story altogether...ehm Paris Hilton, Britney Spears etc.

Isn't great that we can all be different...that we are all individuals...that we don't have to stick to one stereotype or one way of life or whatever?!

I am a woman, and I can say that spitting is disgusting. That goes for men as well. And sleeping around or whatever...well I don't agree with that either but again for both genders. The rest of the stuff, ok...I guess you could say in moderation. I HATE it when people tell me I can't do stuff. I HATE it. I hardly ever use the word hate, but I am deadly serious when I say it right now. But, yes there is always a but, I don't do things that I don't believe in...so I really don't think that women 'act' out because they are escaping the whole servility thing.

Why do men get to do those things without losing anything...without getting a bad reputation? Why shove it all on the woman?

and I agree with Lote-Tree, that we should aspire to decency, class and respect despite gender.

[Themis]

i figure we could get some some civility from the girls and have a real discussion on a very important subject. because they want to drive the truck doesn't mean they have to act like the truck driver. :lol:

I can assure you, I don't want to drive a truck. ;)


nor have i seen men make spectacles of themselves to the degree women do---not even in the tabloids. it's most often women.

Now, why would that be? Of course, because we've got much more to tell (and show ;) ) people.

@Topic: Some women have class, some don't. Alas, one mostly meets women who don't have class; but nobody is interested in those who do nowadays.

[Granny5]

Ok, so we aren't what we used to be, but men aren't what they used to be either. I don't remember the last time a man opened a door for me and let me walk through first..oh wait, my 5 year old grandson does it all the time.
But, in some respects, women have let some of their womanly ways fall by the wayside.

[NikolaiI]

I haven't seen a trend like this! I have friends who drink and smoke, at parties, but this doesn't make them classless and I think they are wonderful persons.

[Granny5]

I'm having a cigarette with my highball...Just joking, it's coffee. I think Virgil has corrupted the minds of some of our younger LitNeter. We women have become a bit lazy I think. It's easier to get ready for work without the makeup and doing the hair thing. I have to make an effort everyday. It's just laziness, I think. And, as a whole, folks don't play the roles like we used to. Not as many formal dress or places to go. Too many "dress casual" events.
I don't know. I think we have lost something, but I'm not sure if we lost it or if men just tossed it out.

That doesn't make much sense now that I've read what I wrote. Did we lose something or did men toss it out? That's better. Anyway, I don't scratch much and I don't spit unless I'm having a chew.

[Virgil]

I'm having a cigarette with my highball...Just joking, it's coffee. I think Virgil has corrupted the minds of some of our younger LitNeter.

:confused: Wait, what did I do to corrupt the younger ones? I'm usually really gentile with the younger people. Except if they hit a nerve. :p


As to Jon's subject, I have noticed over the years that girls have picked up many of the guy's bad habits. I even catch my wife swearing now when she never did that in the past. That doesn't excuse guys, but girls shouldn't emulate the bad habits.

[Granny5]

If they are such bad habits, why do men enjoy them so much? I've heard men brag on such thing as their ability to spit, burp, cuss, and even worse. Women do NOT have contest to see who can write their names in snow ya know. Gosh, I hope we don't pick up that bad habit! At my age..........
(Virgil, you know that you do like to stir things up on occasion.)

[Virgil]

(Virgil, you know that you do like to stir things up on occasion.)
Oh yes, I do that. But corrupt is the wrong word. I try to be fatherly, actually.



If they are such bad habits, why do men enjoy them so much? I've heard men brag on such thing as their ability to spit, burp, cuss, and even worse. Women do NOT have contest to see who can write their names in snow ya know. Gosh, I hope we don't pick up that bad habit! At my age..........
Yeah why do boys do that? I remembering doing those things, at least the spitting and cussing. I didn't burb or other bodily noises :p in public, but I know what you mean. I think it's a phase boys go through. Hopefully they grow out of it, but many don't.

[Scheherazade]

Well, damned if you do, damned if you don't... :rolleyes:

There are many threads on this Forum where women have been mocked because of their 'feminine' habits and interests and here we have this thread.

[Shalot]

Feminity is great and all, but some of it is rather restrictive. A woman who has a professional job has to take at least forty five minutes longer in the morning to get ready to go to work than a professional man. Granted, men usually have to shave in their morning, but they don't have to wash dry and style their hair, which can take an hour. Then there is the whole application of make-up which can take 15 minutes or longer, not to mention the prep time with the cleansing and the exfoliating and the moisturizing and under eye creme which women need since they have to wake up so early to do all this crap.

Then there are hose and slips and camisoles and undergarments woman have to wear under their work wear, which are all a pain in the rear and expensive too (you have to buy the right ones and the right ones are always expensive. and I bet as a man, OP, you have no idea what goes into shopping and pairing underwear with your clothes. I mean you probably think it's real easy, but there are certainly rules of underwear that I won't go into here but I am sure the ladies here know).

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.

I suppose women can acheive a classy elegant feminine look without all the prep time, but it's harder than you think it is and if some women want to be a little more casual at work, then more power to them. It is very difficult to be comfortable in hose!

and that's my two cents. Too sum up, tradional feminine clothing is very restrictive and I hate it. And it's hard to think and perform when you're worried about all this CRAP which is what it is.

[jon1jt]

excellent comments, yes!!!

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore. there's a built-in fear in them that if they want to be classy, sophisticated, they best make that a fashion statement, not a character statement. or else they're labeled JAPS or stuck up or not fun to be around by other women.

and god forbid a woman calls herself a 'stay-at-home' mom in front of other women at a Starbucks! gasp!

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

another question is, how can women find out who they are if they're so busy copying the very worst behaviors of men (a very small percentage of slobs)?


how does this all translate to kids who watch their 45-year old mothers walking around wearing little backpacks and botox lips while drinking beer till they're a drunken slob?

and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

[storybookauthor]

I thought femininity just referred to what women were considered at whatever time, not set rules.

Paris Hilton isn't exactly what most girls aspire to. At least, I really doubt it. Basing what girls are from the tabloids doesn't seem like proper representation. If it is, then a lot of babies must've been eaten by aliens.

Just a random comment.

-Anna.

[jon1jt]

We should all aspire to these qualities - regardless of gender?


no, i disagree with that. men are from mars, women are from venus, don't you know? biological differences between men and women necessitate each gender's social habits and needs. men used to watch football with the guys, no girls. :)

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

[Shalot]

Let's define our terms: what does femininity mean?

Wikipedia defines it as such:

Femininity refers to qualities and behaviors judged by a particular culture to be ideally associated with or especially appropriate to women and girls. Distinct from femaleness, which is a biological and physiological classification concerned with the reproductive system, femininity principally refers to socially acquired traits and secondary sex characteristics. In Western culture femininity has traditionally included features such as gentleness, patience and kindness.[1][2]


I always associate feminity with the clothes they wear since women always wore dresses and men always wore pants, (and then later women starting wearing pants) and I wasn't far off the mark since according to that definition above, feminity refers to socially acquired traits, and the clothes we wear as women and men are dictated by the society we live in.

So yes, feminity is in part, a clothing/fashion issue, which is a huge industry and women spend lots of money on clothes and accessories. And in my opinion, women have to spend more money on clothes than men, and we all know women make 75 cents to every dollar a man makes. So I could argue that fashion is kind of a prison. Women can't build real wealth because society dictates that they spend their money on clothes. And women have to have more clothes than men. So maybe by saying "screw it" we are banking our money and then we take it one step further and start drinking dark beer and watching football (or I am just really reaching here).

I'll address gentleness, kindness, and patience later. (I have to go prepare for a job interview....)

[storybookauthor]

I guess I'm kind of slow on posting, since two posts popped up while i was typing the last one (multitasking...).

I'm kind of confused when you say the "strangely enough," because I have no idea what point you're referring to. I'm a little bit on the slow side today. :(.

What makes you think that women are copying behaviors, or make the generalization that only a small percentage of men are slobs while a large amount of women are losing their sense of femininity? I think a lot of the 18-35 age group that you mention may not have found their identity yet, and maybe they're trying other ones. Maybe it's a way to find their own individual.

We wouldn't be losing anything I guess if we were the first ones to drink beer all the time.

Maybe Freud is right and girls have penis envy. Or maybe you're right and we're lazy, since I'm still in my pajamas from this morning since I only worked on some stuff at home today. *shrugs*

More random comments.

Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.

[Literary_Cat]

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

I find that individualism is particularly American, rather than attached to one or another gender. True, women do tend to define themselves in terms of relationships ("mother of..." / "wife of..."), but Americans as a whole, I find, have a strong individualistic streak. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is probably too complex to define as merely good or bad...but all the same, jon, I don't see that individualism is something that needs to be "reconciled." I tend to follow the school that it ought to be cultivated and praised.

Fascinating thread.

[NikolaiI]

Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.

For me it will work if I do the "remember my password" option. That was really annoying, and I lost a few posts I had written that way..

[Virgil]

Feminity is great and all, but some of it is rather restrictive. A woman who has a professional job has to take at least forty five minutes longer in the morning to get ready to go to work than a professional man. Granted, men usually have to shave in their morning, but they don't have to wash dry and style their hair, which can take an hour. Then there is the whole application of make-up which can take 15 minutes or longer, not to mention the prep time with the cleansing and the exfoliating and the moisturizing and under eye creme which women need since they have to wake up so early to do all this crap.

Then there are hose and slips and camisoles and undergarments woman have to wear under their work wear, which are all a pain in the rear and expensive too (you have to buy the right ones and the right ones are always expensive. and I bet as a man, OP, you have no idea what goes into shopping and pairing underwear with your clothes. I mean you probably think it's real easy, but there are certainly rules of underwear that I won't go into here but I am sure the ladies here know).

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.

I suppose women can acheive a classy elegant feminine look without all the prep time, but it's harder than you think it is and if some women want to be a little more casual at work, then more power to them. It is very difficult to be comfortable in hose!

and that's my two cents. Too sum up, tradional feminine clothing is very restrictive and I hate it. And it's hard to think and perform when you're worried about all this CRAP which is what it is.

I have always said women have it tougher than men in many respects and Shalot here presents why. It is unfair, but I think women ought to be proud of the extra hurdles they overcome. Reducing oneself to the lowest common denominator in any endeavor never accomplishs anything worthwhile.

[storybookauthor]

Thanks. :).

That makes sense.

-Anna.

[Shalot]

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit. You can (for the most part) cross and uncross your legs without worry and splay yourselves across any comfortable sitting surface.




I want to add another thing here men - if you are going commando please be careful of how you sit if you are wearing loose shorts or shortish shorts. I know I said I was going to prepare for my interview but I don't want to psych myself out this time about it and I thought this was an important point.

But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.

[Mortis Anarchy]

To tell you the truth...wow, its just so great, but I love being a girl. Even better, I love feeling sexy and in control...professional but unpredictable at the same time...on occassion, I've been known to let loose a naughty word...does that make me ungirlish? I don't spit, but, have any of you seen Big Daddy? Well, you know when Frankenstein spits and then sucks it back up...well I find that really entertaining...and yes, I have done that a few times. Even though I find it gross...I know thats weird.

Uhh, what else...I dunno...but you get the picture.

I like girly things. I like skirts, dresses, high heels...okay shoes in general. I paint my nails, do my hair...whatever. Does the fact that I do the above make me lose my feminity or whatever? I don't think so...

I hope I'm getting my point across...

But I have to agree with Shalot, maybe we are redefining it. I don't think there is anything wrong with, crap, I lost my train of thought....grrr...

But I think men have changed as well. What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?

[jon1jt]

What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?


maybe it ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the guys that didn't open doors for them. ;)


I want to add another thing here men - if you are going commando please be careful of how you sit if you are wearing loose shorts or shortish shorts. I know I said I was going to prepare for my interview but I don't want to psych myself out this time about it and I thought this was an important point.

But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.

you got me giggling over here, shalot! :)

so many good thoughts.

my book calls me at the moment. i'll be back (i guess i'm sort of multitasking too.) lol

[Mortis Anarchy]

maybe it ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the guys that didn't open doors for them. ;)

Okay, you got me there;)

Yes the bad boy is rather attractive, to me it used to be...but not anymore.

and every girl likes a bit old fashion manners...and I'm sure you guys miss the old, stay at home mom housewife that doesn't flash her goods to the world or get totally wasted every single night...but hey you guys out there:p I don't think the entire population is like that;)

I hope I'm not speaking for myself...:)

[jon1jt]

I thought femininity just referred to what women were considered at whatever time, not set rules.

Paris Hilton isn't exactly what most girls aspire to. At least, I really doubt it. Basing what girls are from the tabloids doesn't seem like proper representation. If it is, then a lot of babies must've been eaten by aliens.

Just a random comment.

-Anna.


sure girls aspire to paris hilton or else she wouldn't be on every other pop mag cover. in the last 25 years, the three women most responsible for setting the trend that being a sleazy female is cool goes to:

1. Madonna
2. Courtney Love
3. Britney Spears
:D

[SleepyWitch]

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

scared of women encroaching on men's territory?

[TheFifthElement]

This is an interesting thread jon1jt! I suppose you've got a point, for some reason a lot of women feel that it's necessary to emulate men in order to appear 'strong'. As many people have pointed out, the right to behave badly is genderless, women have a right to behave appaulingly, and you have a right not to like it, but for many women they simply don't see that you can be feminine and strong, you don't have to emulate the increasingly poor behaviour of men to achieve that. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander, right?

Perhaps women are (stupidly) responding to the behaviour they see from men. Is a damn long time since I've experienced gentlemanly behaviour in a bar. What happened to the days when men treated women respectfully, were polite, didn't grumble about paying the bill and then 'not getting some'? Perhaps women are simply responding to what they think men want? Men have double standards in this respect, they want their partners to be classy, feminine, sweet and kind, but then spend their evenings getting their rocks off in lap dancing bars and watching cheap porn.

I don't count myself as one of those women who feels the need to resort to 'laddish' behaviour, but then I'm lucky enough to be partnered up to one of those increasingly rare old fashioned gentlemen ;)

[Lote-Tree]

no, i disagree with that. men are from mars, women are from venus, don't you know? biological differences between men and women necessitate each gender's social habits and needs. men used to watch football with the guys, no girls. :)

beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p

You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D
And women't can't - that is patronising :D

[jon1jt]

What happened to the days when men treated women respectfully, were polite, didn't grumble about paying the bill and then 'not getting some'? Perhaps women are simply responding to what they think men want?

i'll say it again. those days ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the other guys that didn't open doors for them or pay for dinner. :D


Men have double standards in this respect, they want their partners to be classy, feminine, sweet and kind, but then spend their evenings getting their rocks off in lap dancing bars and watching cheap porn.

well, Oprah spent a full week on this subject. :) when asked whether they enjoyed having sex with their husbands, every married woman admitted to their husbands to being turned off or even repulsed by the mere thought of having to sleep with him. some went so far as to admit they'd be quite happy if the husband "got it" from somebody else so long as he protected himself in the process and kept the money coming in for the bills. :D

i say let that guy have his sad lap dance or watch a little porn if he so chooses. it's in the best interest of the marriage! :D

[amanda_isabel]

to a point, yes, women have lost their.. 'femininity', as you would say, but then again, the whole notion of femininity is based on a stereotype. who was it that created the whole stereotype again?? wasn't it.. men?

women being free from the stereotype just recently has its effects. women are now free to engage in politics. that's the plus side. on the other hand, though, being free of the stereotype has its disadvantages. like this thread here. yo say that we are losing our 'femininity.' but if you think about it, if there were a pairs hilton a few years back, then she would practically be disowned by her father. (i think at some point, she really was, even in today's more 'liberal' world.)

because of the stereotypes and the characteristics listerd under our gender roles, men being slobs and laying around drunk is more accepted in our society than if a woman does the same. just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

in response to this whole gender thing, what if we thought of it this way: women are stepping out of the stereotype. they're playing men's roles-even to a point of going into the negative stereotypes of men-drunkards, gamblers, etc. well instead of losing their femininity, what if they were just gaining their masculinity?

stereotypes aren't fair to anyone, but if you do befot the negative stereotypes included in a certain role, then at vertain times the 'consequences' are lightened. can't we just throw stereotypes out the window? (ha. i wish. easier said than done.)

[jon1jt]

You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D And women't can't - that is patronising :D


hey, in fairness, women are not the only ones doing the mimicking. more and more men today are following women to the beauty salon for a facial or to have their nails done. we call such men, metrosexuals. women's rights, men's rights, individuality, yea! yea! :banana:

[amanda_isabel]

post-script:



But I think men have changed as well. What happened to good old chivalry and opening doors for the ladies...hmm?

men who open doors for us ladies are such a rarity now that in my opinion it's a plus factor for any guy.

[Niamh]

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore.
Now this is where you are wrong. The whole point is that women can be themselves now. The rule of femininity that you seem to be looking for in a woman were rule originally set down by men in a society ruled and dictated by men. Now that women have been given much of the equal rights that they deserve, they are letting out the true woman that has been locked up inside them wanting to get out but couldnt because men expected us to behave like robots and pets. We arent either of these. We are human beings, we should be allowed to act like human beings, and be respected and treated like human being by men. Men have got to stop thinking that they are superior to us, and start accepting that this is real women.



and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?
obviously from this comment, we should all behave like good robots, in exactly the same why as everyone else? If a man can be an indevidual, so can women. I'm proud of who i'm.


and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?
We dont want to be like men. We want to be ourselves.


beer guzzling was a man's enterprise until women hijacked it. :p it started with those wine coolers and margaritas. then women graduated up to real beer. now a sexy woman walks in a bar, pulls up a seat, rolls up her flannel sleeves and snarls, "Gimme a f'n Bud will ya?!" :p
Beer is an ancient alcoholic drink. It was definitely in existance in my country as early as the Iron age. My countries mythology shows women getting drunk on beer with other men. My countries most famous legendary hero Chucullain choose his wife Emer from a group of women because she could pee the farthest. Women were worriors and fought alongside men, even commanded armies of men. They were still doing it a thousand years ago.
I'm sure it was similar in may other countries also.


What makes you think that women are copying behaviors, or make the generalization that only a small percentage of men are slobs while a large amount of women are losing their sense of femininity? I think a lot of the 18-35 age group that you mention may not have found their identity yet, and maybe they're trying other ones. Maybe it's a way to find their own individual.Here here!!:thumbs_up




Maybe Freud is right and girls have penis envy. Or maybe you're right and we're lazy, since I'm still in my pajamas from this morning since I only worked on some stuff at home today. *shrugs*
I dont see anything wrong with lazing around in pjs all day.


Does anyone know what to do if it keeps saying that you're signed out? Because it does it like every five minutes, and close to driving me insane. I must be missing that patience part.

-Anna.
If you open a second window and open up litnet, select viewing whos online. this refreshes every minute and will keep you signed on.:)


But more important is this: maybe women aren't losing their sense of feminity. Maybe they're redefining the term? But see how far I've left to go in that I have to end my assertion with a question mark.
I agree.


Okay, you got me there;)

Yes the bad boy is rather attractive, to me it used to be...but not anymore.

and every girl likes a bit old fashion manners...and I'm sure you guys miss the old, stay at home mom housewife that doesn't flash her goods to the world or get totally wasted every single night...but hey you guys out there:p I don't think the entire population is like that;)

I hope I'm not speaking for myself...:)
Yes every woman likes to see some old fashioned manners from men (even the bad ones, which can i remind you lads, not ALL women go for). You cant moan about women "loosing" their femininity (as dictated by men) in a society where men have "lost" all sense of chivelry?


You are just trying to excuse your behaviour :D
And women't can't - that is patronising :D
It is patronising.

to a point, yes, women have lost their.. 'femininity', as you would say, but then again, the whole notion of femininity is based on a stereotype. who was it that created the whole stereotype again?? wasn't it.. men?
I've already agreed with you!:thumbs_up


women being free from the stereotype just recently has its effects. women are now free to engage in politics. that's the plus side. on the other hand, though, being free of the stereotype has its disadvantages. like this thread here. yo say that we are losing our 'femininity.' but if you think about it, if there were a pairs hilton a few years back, then she would practically be disowned by her father. (i think at some point, she really was, even in today's more 'liberal' world.)
I think its time some men accepted us for who we are. We are going to be around for as long as you are. A women happens to be in the highest position my country has to offer, the seat of the president, a seat that has been held by women for almost twenty years. And they've done a very good job of it.


because of the stereotypes and the characteristics listerd under our gender roles, men being slobs and laying around drunk is more accepted in our society than if a woman does the same. just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.
:thumbs_up couldnt have said it better myself.


in response to this whole gender thing, what if we thought of it this way: women are stepping out of the stereotype. they're playing men's roles-even to a point of going into the negative stereotypes of men-drunkards, gamblers, etc. well instead of losing their femininity, what if they were just gaining their masculinity?

stereotypes aren't fair to anyone, but if you do befot the negative stereotypes included in a certain role, then at vertain times the 'consequences' are lightened. can't we just throw stereotypes out the window? (ha. i wish. easier said than done.)

well said.

[Virgil]

Beer is an ancient alcoholic drink. It was definitely in existance in my country as early as the Iron age. My countries mythology shows women getting drunk on beer with other men. My countries most famous legendary hero Chucullain choose his wife Emer from a group of women because she could pee the farthest.

Hey that's how I picked my wife!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[dramasnot6]

Men are allowed to be rude and crude, and they're also allowed to be gentlemen. Why can't women have the same freedom to behave and speak as they please? Why must the expectations to be setting the courteous, refined example be imposed on women?
I personally am sick of the constant pressure put on women to be "perfect", driven to spending masses of time, energy and money on keeping themselves physically ideal in the eyes of men. If women want to be slobs, let them. If not, that's their choice too.

Besides, is it really the WOMEN who are giving the "attention" to Paris Hilton that keeps her in micro skirts and drinks,thereby encouraging this "lack of class"?

Women are people, not to be put on pedastools. If you want an example set, maybe start with your own gender. Where do you think these "slobby women" learn from?

[TheFifthElement]

i'll say it again. those days ended when the good guys got the message that women fell for the other guys that didn't open doors for them or pay for dinner. :D

So, perhaps women stopped being feminine and classy when they realised the men fell for the other girls who "curse, drink beer (though a Bud isn't really beer - give us a proper pint of John Smiths or Worthington's any day :D ), yell, spit, smoke, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention" to quote your own example ;)

[dramasnot6]

excellent comments, yes!!!

my observation is that women, no matter how hard they try, CAN'T be themselves anymore. there's a built-in fear in them that if they want to be classy, sophisticated, they best make that a fashion statement, not a character statement. or else they're labeled JAPS or stuck up or not fun to be around by other women.

and god forbid a woman calls herself a 'stay-at-home' mom in front of other women at a Starbucks! gasp!

and strangely enough, there is still this fierce sense in women for maintaining a sense of individuality. can anyone reconcile that one for me?

another question is, how can women find out who they are if they're so busy copying the very worst behaviors of men (a very small percentage of slobs)?


how does this all translate to kids who watch their 45-year old mothers walking around wearing little backpacks and botox lips while drinking beer till they're a drunken slob?

and what is this inner drive in women to be like men all about?

I don't think it's lack of "feminity" you're criticising here Jon, more like apathy.
Why should men be allowed to spend their times at the bar and neglect the kids, while women are left to clean up the mess? It is only up until very recently that various waves of 20th and 21st century feminism has allowed women in society to be allowed the same social, political and economic oppurtunities as men. The oppression experienced and restrictions imposed on women up until then( and still occuring now to a lesser degree) caused some pretty severe resentment and hostility. Men have been doing the things you've described for centuries, why is it the women who have to clean up their act? Can you blame women for wanting a little backlash after centuries of being trapped in the domestic circle?
Inner drive to be like men? So you've copyrighted alcohol?

You forget that, although we may be seeing a rise in womens freedom of behaviour in Western society, most of the modern world is still dominated by patriarchal beliefs and rules. Women are severely abused and oppressed all around the world, the justification being that they are subservient to men and should therefore play their game.

Who puts the pressure on women to get "botox lips"? People don't undergo plastic surgery for recreation. The media, still dominated by men, re-enforces societal expectations that women should look and act ideally. This is still a man's world, some women are simply wanting a little of the action.
My question is, why don't MEN change their ways? Just because they've been acting this way for longer, doesn't make it any better.

[Pensive]

I read the first post of this thread (topic) and my head hurt badly.

[Hyacinth42]

I personally believe that it's hypocritical to shout "equal treatment" and then complain when men don't treat them as kind or open doors for them and stuff...

And I also find it annyoing that people complain that women are loosing their sense of feminity and then complain about how disney is truning their little girls into princesses ;)

I agree that the stereotypes suck, I find it so annoying that whenever my theatre teacher curses, he looks at me and gives me a guilty look... And I am notorious in other classes for... erm... expressing myself rather loudly without censoring myself... I want to kick him everytime he does it, but he's my teacher, and I dislike theatre, and I need a good a grade I can get ;)

Anyways, there is a double standard, and it also sucks... I know people have already talked about it:

just like in many cultures, it's accepted, almost expected, even for a man to have an extramarital relationship. (a bad thing for anyone of the male gender who is faithful by nature). if it were a woman, she would be called a s*ut.

But it also goes the other way... If a male teacher sleeps with a girl for grades, it's jail, do not pass go, and the girl is ridiculed... but if a female teacher sleeps with a boy for grades, it takes longer to put her in jail, and she usually gets a lesser sentence, and the guy gets congradulated for doing it with the hot teacher...

And nowadays, the US has gone insane... Some seventh grader was sent to jail for slapping girls' butts!! They got five days in jail, were charged with felony sex charges, which could have been placed on sexual predator lists for the rest of their lives, and the penalty for which is 10 years in jail...

I think, that is some cases, women are more feminine than ever, and I'd personally rather have a spitting, cursing, and drunk woman, than one who is so easily offended and gets worked up over stupid things...

[storybookauthor]

sure girls aspire to paris hilton or else she wouldn't be on every other pop mag cover. in the last 25 years, the three women most responsible for setting the trend that being a sleazy female is cool goes to:

1. Madonna
2. Courtney Love
3. Britney Spears
:D

Umm...no. Not to be mean, but no.

She's on every other pop magazine cover because she does crazy, idiotic things. It doesn't mean people respect and/or aspire to be her; you don't respect her, and I don't either. If they do, it's probably for her looks, not for what she does. I could be wrong, but I think you have to give more credit to girls than that. We're not stupid, maybe easily amused by tabloids, but not stupid.

And I recall a boy in my fourth grade class buying a book on Britney Spears from the book fair for the pictures. It's not always girls buying those books, and I don't think he respected her either.

I have no idea who Courtney Love is.

-Anna.

[dramasnot6]

What about all the men who encourage women to be sleazy? All the rappers and male celebrities objectifying women in their "art" and music? Women like the ones Jon mentioned being idolized by males as the ideal of physical beauty? What kind of message are men sending to women by showing their "appreciation" for these female celebrities?

[kilted exile]

And men do not have to wear skirts so they don't have to worry as much about crossing their ankles when they sit.

Yeah, for the rest of them. But this no underwear with kilt thing can be a real pain:lol: :p

Ok, so back on topic. I have a lot of female friends who drink, smoke & swear. I dont see them as any less feminine, less "strait-laced" perhaps but not less feminine.

[Niamh]

i'm sure all us women on litnet appreciate those works kilted!:thumbs_up
So its true about the kilt thing.:p

[EAP]

The original post is patronizing, sexist, offensive and ignorant in the extreme.

[Scheherazade]

EAP and All> If you find the OP disagreeable, please feel free to ignore this particular thread.

If you would like to take part in the discussion or challenge the OP, however, please do so without resorting to inflammatory comments.

[Lote-Tree]

The original post is patronizing, sexist, offensive and ignorant in the extreme.

It was a joke! :D
Did you not get it?

[jon1jt]

scared of women encroaching on men's territory?

i'll never tell. :p

[Riesa]

this thread makes me want to drink tequila while riding a motorcycle in silk pajamas to the nail salon to get a pedicure before running off to Mexico (by myself) to compete in a wind-sailing competition, and make my way, perhaps, (If I really felt like it) to jump off of the empire state building in a prom-dress and a bowler hat, on the way down I'll curse like a sailor. Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can. and even a rat in a trap while struggle 'till they are dead.

[kilted exile]

i'm sure all us women on litnet appreciate those works kilted!:thumbs_up


If you are referring to my "works" to prevent displaying myself when wearing a kilt, I think women are not the main ones that appreciate it;)

If it is a typo and you meant words well erm yeah

[Niamh]

typo. ment words!:blush: its amazing how typing in one letter wrong can change the intire meaning of a sentence!:blush: :lol:

I was refaring to this statement


Ok, so back on topic. I have a lot of female friends who drink, smoke & swear. I dont see them as any less feminine, less "strait-laced" perhaps but not less feminine.

[jon1jt]

I think we have lost something, but I'm not sure if we lost it or if men just tossed it out.

That doesn't make much sense now that I've read what I wrote. Did we lose something or did men toss it out? That's better.

that's an interesting point, granny, i'd like to hear you elaborate some on your idea that men contributed to the demise of women. how so? i think in some sense that is true.

this reminds me of women in the 1950s, the so-called happy homemaker. the average age a women married in the '50s was 20 or 21. but women rebelled the following decade, the 1960s, rejecting what they saw as an oppressive lifestyle.

the ideas of feminism were flourishing in the 1960s, remember?

perhaps the women who behave like slobby men today are unconsciously bitter or resentful that breaking free was not what they really wanted, it was only what they thought they wanted.

think about it this way, women in many ways have returned to that cushy life of "security" that the 1950s had offered them. and even though more women today are pursuing careers and earning six figure salaries, there still is an underlying tension in the relations between men and women. why?

my answer is that women learned that they need men, and so perhaps women are jealous because men are truly free and they are not, no matter how much they liberate themselves.

the modern woman's i-do-what-i-want-when-i-want attitude may be their silent way of saying "F-off" to the world. :p

[Nightshade]

Ive been thinking about this for the last hour or so and it occurs to me that what is going on here is a conflicit between different deffintions of feminity.
I mean look at it this way it depend on how you define what is feminie. Say there exsists a culture ( not sure there is one but whatever) where the woman does the hunting and all that other stuff- then in That culture feminie is the hunting person who _lets go with this_ smells of rotten meat and spits and curses and whatvere. And its more 'masculine' to stay home and clean.

So, if anyone is still following, my point is that we have the shall we call it pre femnist ideal of feminie and today in our PC post post modern post post feminist ( I actually had a teacher who referted to this era as that ) era we have the conflicts of the objectification and general hypocricy towards women ( see The Sun for further ref) the equality argument, and the a whole load of other arguments about gender roles and steryotypes all clashed together resulting in 'the modern woman'.

And that was me waffling meaninglessly- its good to be back:D


EDIT: Im strangly reminded of a short story from the 1920s or earlier I think. about a couple --who are jealous of each other the husband because the wife stays at home and does nothing all day and the wife because he gets to go out and she is stuck with the kids and the house- who swap bodies for the day and each find that really they were happier in the roles they had orginally. Although I do remeber thinking the woman got a bit of a bashing.

[Scheherazade]

I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:

http://flakmag.com/film/images/stepford.jpg

[Lote-Tree]

I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:


Only unintelligent men want those....

[Virgil]

This thread is hilarious. :lol: :lol:



this thread makes me want to drink tequila while riding a motorcycle in silk pajamas to the nail salon to get a pedicure before running off to Mexico (by myself) to compete in a wind-sailing competition, and make my way, perhaps, (If I really felt like it) to jump off of the empire state building in a prom-dress and a bowler hat, on the way down I'll curse like a sailor. Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can. and even a rat in a trap while struggle 'till they are dead.

Riesa, I cannot picture you as anything but feminine, no matter how much you swear and drink. :)

[jon1jt]

Of course, I am a stay-at-home mom, and what I will end up doing is cleaning toilets and picking the kids up at 2:45. but I might curse like a sailor, because I can...


funny you said that, my friend bought a Hummer recently and when i asked him why he bought a vehicle that gets only 12 miles to a gallon and is an environmental hazard, he answered half-jokingly, "because I can." :lol:

that's the highest expression of power. women must be truly free, see that? :D


I cannot help thinking that what men really want is Stepford wives:

http://flakmag.com/film/images/stepford.jpg


well, can you tell me if there is such a woman out there that has the looks of a Stepford wife with a creative intellect (and not a slob)? :D that's asking for alot, no?

[littlewing53]

riesa...can i come too???

[Bakiryu]

Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.

[Mortis Anarchy]

I'd shoot myself if I lived in the stepford society. Wow...the scariest movie I ever saw!

[EAP]

If the original post is a joke then it's not a particularly funny one; if not - then I stand by my comments.

[Lote-Tree]

If the original post is a joke then it's not a particularly funny one; if not - then I stand by my comments.

Laughter is the sun that drives the winter from the human face :D

[EAP]

Misogyny is not something to laugh about.

[Lote-Tree]

There is no mysogny in the thread it is just humourous banter :D

[papayahed]

There is no mysogny in the thread it is just humourous banter :D

Perhaps you need the definition:

mi·sog·y·ny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.



This thread has it all.

[Niamh]

Perhaps you need the definition:

mi·sog·y·ny - hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.



This thread has it all.

yes it does. I dont think the op was ment as a joke Lote.:)

[Lote-Tree]

yes it does. I dont think the op was ment as a joke Lote.:)

Sorry I am getting mixed up with my threads...i menat the chicks are cool thread is not mysogynistic :D

[NikolaiI]

Laughter is the sun that drives the winter from the human face :D

"Not by wrath, but by laughter do you kill." - Nietzsche

Although I think it's out of context here. :) I've just been wanting to use it somewhere..

[applepie]

Are women losing their sense of femininity?

women are becoming slobs, especially the ones between 18-35 but by no means limited to that age group. i've seen grandmothers behave like out of control children.


what i mean is, women have no class---they curse, yell, spit, smoke, drink beer, do shots until they babble, wear slutty clothes, and seem to go out of their way to be outrageous for attention. just consider Paris Hilton. :lol:


it's not just the outrageous behavior, it's rolls up to the level of female professionals who behave like barbarians in the workplace, taking on attitudes and behaviors that were once only assigned to the worst men. some women even pride themselves in having a reputation as a "*itch"


nor have i seen men make spectacles of themselves to the degree women do---not even in the tabloids. it's most often women.

there's a sense in all this that women no longer stand for that divine presence they once possessed. or in the way Chet Baker once sung about them. ahhh.

have you experienced a decline in womanhood? :D

:lol::lol: I've just gotten to this thread. I don't know where it has gone either. I don't behave like a lady all of the time, but I like to think I have decent manners. I often wonder when it became alright to be rude and dress like you are on a street corner. My parents would have strangled me if I behaved like most girls do, and I have to admit I would do the same to my daughter. She's a baby so lucky for me I don't have to worry over it for a long time:D I'll read the rest of this thread when I find the time, because I'm sure the ensuing tumult you've created is funny. I'm laughing it up with Virgil :lol:

[Mrs. Dalloway]

Feminity doesn't exist. It was imposed by a patriarchal society to make women inferior...

[jon1jt]

Misogyny is not something to laugh about.


you're wrong EAP that i'm a misogynist. i highly encourage you to read some of my posts where i take a stand against misogyny, particularly the Hip Hop thread. ;)

i don't "hate, dislike, or mistrust" women. that's why i've been trying to frame the issues in the form of questions...ahem...with the exception of the OP. :D c'mon, misogynistic? :goof:

hey, this is a discussion with the intention and aim to locate the sources for the decline of femininity today.


Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.


i think this is true, and i alluded to the cultural phenomena of male metrosexuals. lifestyles of men and women are changing, that's evident enough. so do you think that the decline of femininity is in some way tied to a more general change in the roles of gender? or are they separate?

[Bakiryu]

i think this is true, and i alluded to the cultural phenomena of male metrosexuals. lifestyles of men and women are changing, that's evident enough. so do you think that the decline of femininity is in some way tied to a more general change in the roles of gender? or are they separate?


It's pretty much all tied up together. With men deciding they don't really care about being manly and social standards for both sexes being relaxed. Why put the effort into being more feminine, if nobody cares?

[Redzeppelin]

Women are losing their sense of femininity as much as men are losing their sense of masculinity.

Perfectly true - and a disaster for modern relationships.


Feminity doesn't exist. It was imposed by a patriarchal society to make women inferior...

Absurd; psychology has clearly acknowledged that men and women are "wired" up differently, that - at their core - they are fundamentally different not only in body, but in emotional, psychological and relational makeup. Get real - patriarchal societies do not have the power to make women "feminine" - although it can influence them towards masculinity (as we currently see, and that's not a pretty picture). And, by the way, what would women be like had patriarchal society not foisted their phony "femininity" on them? Masculine? What?

[jon1jt]

Perfectly true - and a disaster for modern relationships.



Absurd; psychology has clearly acknowledged that men and women are "wired" up differently, that - at their core - they are fundamentally different not only in body, but in emotional, psychological and relational makeup. Get real - patriarchal societies do not have the power to make women "feminine" - although it can influence them towards masculinity (as we currently see, and that's not a pretty picture). And, by the way, what would women be like had patriarchal society not foisted their phony "femininity" on them? Masculine? What?

well said, Red. i agree---it's true, how the heck does a patriarchal society make a woman feminine??

given the fact that women are moving towards masculinity, i wonder whether the laws of evolution hold that women will eventually begin to grow a beard. :D

[Granny5]

I’ve been thinking about this and I believe, for now anyway,
that some things that make us feel feminine have fallen to the
wayside. Men have become confused, and for good reason, about
how women should be treated. Men used to open doors, sit only
after the female was seated, stand when a woman entered the room,
lift any heavy objects, and just generally be gentlemen around women.
Now I don’t know if they know what is the correct way to behave.
There is a big difference in equality in the workplace and in life.
Some women are confused too. They think it’s an insult to them
as women if a man treats them like my mother expected to be treated.
I think that if I stood by and waited for a man about to enter a door
that I was about to enter to open it, I’d be standing there a long time.
Unless the man is older, I don’t think he’d know what my problem was.
When we are dressed and going out, Poppy walks around and opens
my car door for me. On a daily basis, trips to the store and whatnot,
he’d think there was something wrong with me if I sat there and waited
for him to come around and open my door. The social climate now is
confusing for both sexes. We aren’t just losing our femininity, but
I think men have lost something too.

[jon1jt]

I’ve been thinking about this and I believe, for now anyway,
that some things that make us feel feminine have fallen to the
wayside. Men have become confused, and for good reason, about
how women should be treated. Men used to open doors, sit only
after the female was seated, stand when a woman entered the room,
lift any heavy objects, and just generally be gentlemen around women.
Now I don’t know if they know what is the correct way to behave.
There is a big difference in equality in the workplace and in life.
Some women are confused too. They think it’s an insult to them
as women if a man treats them like my mother expected to be treated.
I think that if I stood by and waited for a man about to enter a door
that I was about to enter to open it, I’d be standing there a long time.
Unless the man is older, I don’t think he’d know what my problem was.
When we are dressed and going out, Poppy walks around and opens
my car door for me. On a daily basis, trips to the store and whatnot,
he’d think there was something wrong with me if I sat there and waited
for him to come around and open my door. The social climate now is
confusing for both sexes. We aren’t just losing our femininity, but
I think men have lost something too.

you make some excellent points and come to an interesting conclusion. i have experienced women dismiss respectable, decent men time and again and settle for a "bad boy."

the problem starts and ends with women and their nutty desire to be with that kind of guy. the challenge literally consumes them. perhaps this awful drive is inspired by their motherly instinct to nurture and rehabilitate. It becomes a power struggle---a game, a game that women created and bad boys control, while the rest of the single male population sits around wondering why in the hell those women would even bother in the first place. :D

[Granny5]

Well, there are women like that but I think most of us marry good guys. There aren't a lot left, but at least I got one. Some women seem to always pick the worse kind of guy and you may be right about the mothering instinct. But I think they are not the majority of women.

[Scheherazade]

R e m i n d e r

Please do not resort to inflammatory comments.

Such posts will be deleted with or without any further warning.

[papayahed]

Well, there are women like that but I think most of us marry good guys. There aren't a lot left, but at least I got one. Some women seem to always pick the worse kind of guy and you may be right about the mothering instinct. But I think they are not the majority of women.

Yeah, after a few bad experiences I think we all come to our senses.

[Riesa]

I say all of us drinking, swearing women should get together and kick some pasty intellectual misogynist ***. and we'll do it in high-heels and lipstick. littlewing, you in? :) ;)

thanks, Virgil, that is so sweet. :blush:

and some of my favorite men go about picking flowers, and reek of sweet sentiment. so...life is complex.

I think if I had a nanny, a housekeeper, a landscaper, a cook, I'd be more inclined to be sweetly feminine.

[littlewing53]

hi riesa...i agree, life is for the living....oh, great words of wisdom...:D..i think you forgot the window washer at the end....:lol:

[Niamh]

I say all of us drinking, swearing women should get together and kick some pasty intellectual misogynist ***. and we'll do it in high-heels and lipstick. littlewing, you in? :) ;)

thanks, Virgil, that is so sweet. :blush:

and some of my favorite men go about picking flowers, and reek of sweet sentiment. so...life is complex.

I think if I had a nanny, a housekeeper, a landscaper, a cook, I'd be more inclined to be sweetly feminine.

I'm up for it if its stillettos!:p I wonder what my worrior women ansestors would do in a situation like this........?

[kilted exile]

Just an interesting (well to me anyway) point about stillettos. getting trampled by women in stillettos can be more dangerous than an elephant due to weight distribution.

[Virgil]

Just an interesting (well to me anyway) point about stillettos. getting trampled by women in stillettos can be more dangerous than an elephant due to weight distribution.

:lol: That had me chuckling out loud. I wonder how many here understand that. Actually i've got a weight distribution problem on a design right now at work. :D

[Idril]

I say all of us drinking, swearing women should get together and kick some pasty intellectual misogynist ***. and we'll do it in high-heels and lipstick. littlewing, you in? :) ;)


Hey! That sounds like a great idea! Maybe we can get a couple fierce tattoos and piercings while we're at it, something pretty and feminine like fairies or and angel wings. :p

[Niamh]

Hey! That sounds like a great idea! Maybe we can get a couple fierce tattoos and piercings while we're at it, something pretty and feminine like fairies or and angel wings. :p

And adopt a name like The Femme Fatale Faeries!

[Idril]

And adopt a name like The Femme Fatale Faeries!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

And go around spreading our version of femininity, a femininity that is defined by us, not some silly poet. ;) :p

[Riesa]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

And go around spreading our version of femininity, a femininity that is defined by us, not some silly poet. ;) :p

woohoo! FFF, good one Niamh. the triple F-words.



that is oddly reminiscent of my signature, Idril. Someone once said to me that a certain sisterhood scared the crap out of him. :p as little wings become fairy wings, the moon blots out the sun, and the men all feel like George Costanza after swimming in a cold pool. ;)

and, flip flops can be feminine, if not quite as dangerous as stilettos.

[Idril]

that is oddly reminiscent of my signature, Idril. Someone once said to me that a certain sisterhood scared the crap out of him. :p as little wings become fairy wings, the moon blots out the sun, and the men all feel like George Costanza after swimming in a cold pool. ;)

and, flip flops can be feminine, if not quite as dangerous as stilettos.

Another good question is why are men so often threatened by female friendships? Are they scared their influence with their significant others will be undermined? Are they scared they will be discussed with all their faults and foibles? Are they scared that we'll give each other good advice and that good advice might be, "turn him loose"? :lol: Now, before anyone complains, I fully realize not all men are like that but I think there are plenty who, deep down, fear their mate's female friends on some level.

And of course flip-flops can be feminine, especially if you have a nice pedicure and some cute little toe-rings. :D

[Nightshade]

I say all of us drinking, swearing women should get together and kick some pasty intellectual misogynist ***. and we'll do it in high-heels and lipstick. littlewing, you in? :) ;)




I'm up for it if its stillettos!:p I wonder what my worrior women ansestors would do in a situation like this........?


Hey! That sounds like a great idea! Maybe we can get a couple fierce tattoos and piercings while we're at it, something pretty and feminine like fairies or and angel wings. :p


And adopt a name like The Femme Fatale Faeries!



And go around spreading our version of femininity, a femininity that is defined by us, not some silly poet. ;) :p

and go blougeon people with ceramic rolling pins??

[kilted exile]

:lol: That had me chuckling out loud. I wonder how many here understand that. Actually i've got a weight distribution problem on a design right now at work. :D

Not sure but I think most people here would understand it, the theory itself is pretty simple - as always its the practicalities that cause issues;)

[jon1jt]

i leave for a day the whole s###house here goes up in flames by a band of femininites! :D

and where are the guys (i.e. virgil) to hold up the fort when i need them?? :crash:

[Riesa]

Well, the girls are busy holding up the fort, while Virgil is taking a little siesta.

:p

I just wanted to mention something. I often hold the door for other people, women with strollers, old ladies, or men with crutches, whatever. Now, does this make me masculine? or does it just show kindness and respect? Half of the time men will shove the old lady out of the way to get through the door I'm holding open for her.

[jon1jt]

Well, the girls are busy holding up the fort, while Virgil is taking a little siesta.

:p

I just wanted to mention something. I often hold the door for other people, women with strollers, old ladies, or men with crutches, whatever. Now, does this make me masculine? or does it just show kindness and respect? Half of the time men will shove the old lady out of the way to get through the door I'm holding open for her.


as far as women with strollers you must refer to my little Vacant poem. :D

wait, you just said that you hold the door for old ladies and men with crutches. perhaps. but admit to everyone that you tell them to hurry the hell up! :D

[Riesa]

As to Jon's subject, I have noticed over the years that girls have picked up many of the guy's bad habits. I even catch my wife swearing now when she never did that in the past. That doesn't excuse guys, but girls shouldn't emulate the bad habits


She's not emulating the bad habits, she's driven to it. Only you know the reasons why. :p

[jon1jt]

Another good question is why are men so often threatened by female friendships? Are they scared their influence with their significant others will be undermined? Are they scared they will be discussed with all their faults and foibles? Are they scared that we'll give each other good advice and that good advice might be, "turn him loose"? :lol: Now, before anyone complains, I fully realize not all men are like that but I think there are plenty who, deep down, fear their mate's female friends on some level.

And of course flip-flops can be feminine, especially if you have a nice pedicure and some cute little toe-rings. :D

but have you ever thought of the possibility that what you interpret to be a man's "fear" is actually a man's "frustration" that his girfriend or wife is not spending more time out of the house with her female friends so that he can relax at home in peace and quiet? :D ;)

[Riesa]

as far as women with strollers you must refer to my little Vacant poem. :D

wait, you just said that you hold the door for old ladies and men with crutches. perhaps. but admit to everyone that you tell them to hurry the hell up! :D


not here, in Texas, one says:
"Git!"
or
"come on, granma, i got cows and roosters to feed." or, "whatcha think there's rattlesnakes on t'other side of this here door?" or "what's the hold up? Jesse James robbin' your bank?"

certainly never, "hurry the hell up". :p

[NikolaiI]

I don't know; just because most men or women are a certain way doesn't mean that they are inherently this way. I was talking about this with my mother, and she told me she'd never felt biologically driven until she felt the need to comfort and feed us (my brother and me) as infants. Still, we both feel the most important thing is how people choose to think and behave, rather than what one's gender is. I mean men and women have different hormones, but each are capable of kindness or meanness or anything.

So I think our psychology has a higher determination on who and what we are, above gender, and ideas about masculinity or femininity have less to do with reality, even though men are more naturally aggressive, etc., as to do with our society's stipulations (for instance is it masculine to sit practicing zen for hours? honestly, how many would say no)

Erm, okay I realize at some point this turned into a post for the other thread, but I guess about this topic I just want to say no, I haven't noticed such a trend. For one, the number of people I have met and known and talked with is so incredibly small that I would not make a judgment about women in general from it, and secondly because I haven't noticed a trend like this at all in the women and girls I know and talk with. And that has nothing to do with my being a feminist.

[jon1jt]

not here, in Texas, one says:
"Git!"
or
"come on, granma, i got cows and roosters to feed." or, "whatcha think there's rattlesnakes on t'other side of this here door?" or "what's the hold up? Jesse James robbin' your bank?"

certainly never, "hurry the hell up". :p


good point, i almost forgot that the women who yell at old ladies to "hurry the hell up" all live in NY and NJ. :D

[Riesa]

about this topic I just want to say no, I haven't noticed such a trend. For one, the number of people I have met and known and talked with is so incredibly small that I would not make a judgment about women in general from it, and secondly because I haven't noticed a trend like this at all in the women and girls I know and talk with.

Ultimately I have to agree with you. The women I come into contact with here, in Texas, and no, it's not so out of tune with the rest of America as one might think, are for the most part very "feminine". If they drink, they drink white or red wine, or a spritzer, and very few at one time. or maybe if they are a little daring, an Appletini. They volunteer at school, go to church, bake cakes. Are "good" wives and "good" mothers. say things like, "good heavens", or "for pete's sake" (or is that idril?)

pity for me, I'd prefer to be surrounded by more of the type described by Jon we've been discussing here. :p

[jon1jt]

about this topic I just want to say no, I haven't noticed such a trend. For one, the number of people I have met and known and talked with is so incredibly small that I would not make a judgment about women in general from it, and secondly because I haven't noticed a trend like this at all in the women and girls I know and talk with. And that has nothing to do with my being a feminist.


social science found that it can make generalizations about entire populations within a very small margin of error based on the attitudes and opinions of a small population sample. it's no surprise that opinion polls drive campaign politics. we like to think we're complex. hardly true.

human beings are very predictable, more predictable now than we were fifty years ago, and fifty years before that. someday we'll stop asking "why?" and become complex creatures, like cats and dogs. :)


Ultimately I have to agree with you. The women I come into contact with here, in Texas, and no, it's not so out of tune with the rest of America as one might think, are for the most part very "feminine". If they drink, they drink white or red wine, or a spritzer, and very few at one time. or maybe if they are a little daring, an Appletini. They volunteer at school, go to church, bake cakes. Are "good" wives and "good" mothers. say things like, "good heavens", or "for pete's sake" (or is that idril?)

pity for me, I'd prefer to be surrounded by more of the type described by Jon we've been discussing here. :p


no problem, just move to Brooklyn. :D

[Riesa]

Another good question is why are men so often threatened by female friendships? Are they scared their influence with their significant others will be undermined? Are they scared they will be discussed with all their faults and foibles? Are they scared that we'll give each other good advice and that good advice might be, "turn him loose"? :lol: Now, before anyone complains, I fully realize not all men are like that but I think there are plenty who, deep down, fear their mate's female friends on some level.

And of course flip-flops can be feminine, especially if you have a nice pedicure and some cute little toe-rings. :D


this is such a good point, Idril. I wonder which would be the worse for sig. others to listen to? a 'hen' party or a poker game? I've been around men talking when they think I'm not paying attention, and while entertaining, in an often sick and disturbed way, :p relationship advice is hardly a hot topic.


no problem, just move to Brooklyn. :D

egads!

[littlewing53]

u guys are cracking me up...have really enjoyed this post...i still say long live the FFF...

[SleepyWitch]

what's wrong with drinking and cursing?
if there's anything wrong with it, why do lots of men do it all the time? seeing as they are so incredibly strooooooong and rational, they should be able to stop it anytime?

a few random observations, not directed at anyone in particular:
if psychology was genetics it wouldn't be called psychology

re: "women are this, men are that"... the appropriate phrasing would be something like "there is evidence that..." ".... seems to indicate that...".
on that note: The world is flat, yours truly, SleepyWitch

FFF girls, can I join you? I'd prefer Doc Marten's to high heels, though

[Redzeppelin]

what's wrong with drinking and cursing?
if there's anything wrong with it, why do lots of men do it all the time? seeing as they are so incredibly strooooooong and rational, they should be able to stop it anytime?

Well, a woman who drinks is not a problem; cursing comes across as a rather coarse behavior - it's not really "OK" for men, but its coarseness seems more appropriate to men and more inappropriate to women (whose refinement - both self-proclaimed and culturally-attributed - makes such behavior seem contradictory to the "softness" and "tenderness" that are associated with women). Women who act like "one of the guys" become just that - and I'm not necessarily sure that every man wants to date "one of the guys."



re: "women are this, men are that"... the appropriate phrasing would be something like "there is evidence that..." ".... seems to indicate that...".


A reasonable request, though I would assume that it's understood by most people that any statement of "are" or "is" allows for the exception to the rule.

[SleepyWitch]

Well, a woman who drinks is not a problem; cursing comes across as a rather coarse behavior - it's not really "OK" for men, but its coarseness seems more appropriate to men and more inappropriate to women (whose refinement - both self-proclaimed and culturally-attributed - makes such behavior seem contradictory to the "softness" and "tenderness" that are associated with women). Women who act like "one of the guys" become just that - and I'm not necessarily sure that every man wants to date "one of the guys."
tough luck on him then. if those women can live with some guys not wanting to date them, no harms done to anyone. so what's wrong with women behaving like "one of the guys", providet that women weren't created for the sole purpose of dating men?



A reasonable request, though I would assume that it's understood by most people that any statement of "are" or "is" allows for the exception to the rule.
eh, that's not exactly what I meant

[Niamh]

re: "women are this, men are that"... the appropriate phrasing would be something like "there is evidence that..." ".... seems to indicate that...".
on that note: The world is flat, yours truly, SleepyWitch
:lol: :thumbs_up :p


FFF girls, can I join you? I'd prefer Doc Marten's to high heels, though

Of course! Type of footwear doesnt matter, as long as they hurt when they impact with limbs!:p

[Idril]

but have you ever thought of the possibility that what you interpret to be a man's "fear" is actually a man's "frustration" that his girfriend or wife is not spending more time out of the house with her female friends so that he can relax at home in peace and quiet? :D ;)

Yeah...um...I don't think so. :p Otherwise we would hear, "Why don't you call up *insert female's friend's name here* and go out for coffee?" instead of, "Are you going out with her again?". :lol: And I've often noticed the attitude...on occasion...that when men get together with their buddies, they're bonding whereas when women get together, we're 'conspiring'. :rolleyes:

Female friendships can be incredibly empowering and that empowerment can bring about confidence and that confidence, in a woman's own mind, body, sexuality and just general worth, can be very feminine. Would you rather have a mouse or a tiger? ;)

[SleepyWitch]

Beyonce Knowles, isn't she a lovely young lady? you can even see some stubbles where she forgot to shave!

I got this pic from a thread in another forum (a nerdy Star Trek forum), where people where asked to nominate their sexiest celebrity. the guys all posted pics
like this one. so what does that tell us about the male psyche?
image of beyonce (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c169/celebrities_fun/beyonce_knowles_06.jpg)

anyways, this is another example of women/people in general losing their sense of decency, as oppposed to femininity/masculinity. what's wrong about this pic for me isn't that Beyonce behaves un-femininely, but that I'm forced to look at things I never asked to see. if a man posed that way, it would be called flashing...

[SleepyWitch]

Well, a woman who drinks is not a problem; cursing comes across as a rather coarse behavior - it's not really "OK" for men, but its coarseness seems more appropriate to men and more inappropriate to women (whose refinement - both self-proclaimed and culturally-attributed - makes such behavior seem contradictory to the "softness" and "tenderness" that are associated with women).

..the softness and tenderness that are associated with women by whom?

[AimusSage]

Well, I'm all for sexy women, I encourage that, but sexy does not mean distasteful.

Sleepy, since this is an all ages forum, I've changed the img you had of beyonce into a link, so people can choose to look at it, and not be confronted with it directly.

[SleepyWitch]

Well, I'm all for sexy women, I encourage that, but sexy does not mean distasteful.

Sleepy, since this is an all ages forum, I've changed the img you had of beyonce into a link, so people can choose to look at it, and not be confronted with it directly.

thanks Aimus:p i couldn't remember how to do it (just got up an hour ago :))

[AimusSage]

thanks Aimus:p i couldn't remember how to do it (just got up an hour ago :))
Hey, I did too! :lol: But I am a morning person ;)

[jon1jt]

..the softness and tenderness that are associated with women by whom?

by natural laws, evolution. why must women insist on making men out to be the villains?? there was never a vast conspiracy made up of men for the single purpose of controlling women.

rather, it was a band of rabble-rousing women who disrupted the course of social history. i'm not suggesting that all women were particularly "happy" about their place in the world; surely men prevented what they thought to be "normal"--that being a woman who stayed home to care for her children while the husband worked and provided. what was so wrong with that arrangement??

feminists point to history as if all were tragic, as if all men were systematically involved in the suppression of women "rights." gimme a break. it was merely a different value under which women cultivatedfeminine habits and attitudes that they have long since abandoned.

and for what? to behave like beyonce knowles? britney spears? paris hilton? because they can?? ok, so do.

[Madhuri]

what was so wrong with that arrangement??


freedom to choose?

[Granny5]

freedom to choose?

excellent, Madhuri!

[Niamh]

by natural laws, evolution. why must women insist on making men out to be the villains?? there was never a vast conspiracy made up of men for the single purpose of controlling women.

rather, it was a band of rabble-rousing women who disrupted the course of social history. i'm not suggesting that all women were particularly "happy" about their place in the world; surely men prevented what they thought to be "normal"--that being a woman who stayed home to care for her children while the husband worked and provided. what was so wrong with that arrangement??

feminists point to history as if all were tragic, as if all men were systematically involved in the suppression of women "rights." gimme a break. it was merely a different value under which women cultivatedfeminine habits and attitudes that they have long since abandoned.

and for what? to behave like beyonce knowles? britney spears? paris hilton? because they can?? ok, so do.

You did suppress our rights. you made us second class citizens, wouldnt let us vote or work after we were married. Men portrayed us in the medieval period as bearers of the seeds of evil so that they stand above us and put us in our place. If a woman was displeasing to his wife, all he had to do in the past was claim she was a witch and hay presto gone! All the laws that were ever placed in statute about womens rights and their "place" in "normal" society (before the suffregette movement) were ALL written and passed by men. Dont you understand that this ideal of a woman staying at home, rearing her children, looking after the house and her husband, were all laws made by men, FOR men, and was in truth a form of slavery created by men.

How anyone can think that we are less feminine, because we have gotten much of the freedom from a male surpressed society that we deserve, and therefore no longer abide by the laws created by men for women, is beyond me. And we do not aspire to be like Britney spears and Paris Hilton. And as for the image of most of these famous pop singers, their image is generally decided in a nice corparate music industry building, full of men with mens ideals.

[SleepyWitch]

by natural laws, evolution. why must women insist on making men out to be the villains?? there was never a vast conspiracy made up of men for the single purpose of controlling women.

as‧so‧ci‧ate1 S3 W2 [See pronunciation table in "How to use dictionary" pages]
1 [transitive] to make a connection in your mind between one thing or person and another
LDOCE online (http://pewebdic2.cw.idm.fr/)

nature or evolution can make connections in their mind? that's new to me. well, you live and learn :)
next time i meet Nature or Evolution in the park I'll ask them what they associate with women/men.

[jon1jt]

Yeah...um...I don't think so. :p Otherwise we would hear, "Why don't you call up *insert female's friend's name here* and go out for coffee?" instead of, "Are you going out with her again?". :lol: And I've often noticed the attitude...on occasion...that when men get together with their buddies, they're bonding whereas when women get together, we're 'conspiring'. :rolleyes:

Female friendships can be incredibly empowering and that empowerment can bring about confidence and that confidence, in a woman's own mind, body, sexuality and just general worth, can be very feminine. Would you rather have a mouse or a tiger? ;)


well, that's true, idril. men can be bratty little boys most of the time. the men you speak about are just insecure (and stupid), the absolute worst kind to be with. my question -- which requires a brutally honest answer from a woman -- is why the hell do women get involved with those kind of men in the first place? you mean to tell me that women never once detected their significant other's controlling characteristic early on while they were dating?? you mean it's only after several years that they come to see things as they really are?? :rolleyes: bullsh##. most women are with a guy long enough to observe character flaws. there is no excuse to be with the kind of controlling man you describe, let alone to be married to one. if women want to be respected, then they first ought to be better judges of character so that the men who are not controlling will think more highly of them. you will in essence earn respect from the right men and the control freaks will end up alone where they belong.

what's pathetic is that women are no better---in more instances than not women strive to control the same men that they claim are controlling them. :nod: i remember my high school girlfriend who once said indignantly early on, "you're going out with them again?" :rolleyes: she was referring to friends i had made long before she ever came into the picture. it made no sense to me then and it makes no sense to me now.

again, it's the woman's fault, who tends to be an awful judge of character. :D







Female friendships can be incredibly empowering and that empowerment can bring about confidence and that confidence, in a woman's own mind, body, sexuality and just general worth, can be very feminine. Would you rather have a mouse or a tiger? ;)

well that's true. but it's also the case that most women who find that sense of empowerment tend to be guarded, in the sense that they believe men are "conspiring" to take something away from them, something they have worked so hard to "earn" (as if they never had access to free choice). :rolleyes:

as to your question of whether i desire "a mouse or a tiger," may i ask you, is the tiger temperate? :D


Dont you understand that this ideal of a woman staying at home, rearing her children, looking after the house and her husband, were all laws made by men, FOR men, and was in truth a form of slavery created by men.

the last i checked the history books it was MEN who went off to war and fought like warrior poets. they also produced the food (with the assistance of women). sure, there were women warriors, Sparta is an example. but when you stress that laws were made "for" men, i shudder. women need to stop revising the facts of history -- the arrangement of women staying home and child rearing while the men -- which you failed to mention -- went off to fight wars, was in fact in the best interest of the whole SOCIETY.

i am surprised that the notion men "enslaved" women is not more offensive to men. if men were so interested in oppressing women we can do that right now and there wouldn't be much that a woman could do about it. the age of barbarism between men and women is ending, and that's a good thing. rape and domestic violence is less frequent now than ever before. we live in a civilizing society, not a civil society. social conditions ebb and flow, but things are getting better. and in that milieu we come to discover what's in the best for ALL, not only for oneself. it's part of the social compact agreement we learned in first grade. :)

women should stop perceiving "rights" as individualized, for even individual rights are tied to the collective good. you disregard that, as do most women. and it's in that utter disregard that women find the justification to act like slobs. :D

there was nothing in the beginning of time to inform us that "all people are equal." we had to discover that, are still discovering that. tell a pack of hungry dogs that they're equal when you throw them a steak and watch to see if they share it.

so it's true, as you say, that "all laws [were] made by men." you fail, however, to consider the fact that men made laws and over time changed those laws, oftentimes at the behest of women agitators. political and social conditions made inclusion possible, and men were instrumental in that. give men credit where credit is due, and let's stop rewriting history on here, there's enough of those books at Barnes & Noble. :)

[Lyn]

What? War is in the best interests of society? Always? In which context? Rape and domestic violence are at lower rates than ever? In which country? Even in the Western world, do you KNOW how many women are raped and don't report it? Do you know the pathetically low percentage of cases that even make it to court when they are reported? I remember a psychology study in which men of university age were questioned if they would rape a woman if they thought there would be no consequences, and around 60% said they would. 60%!
"There was nothing at the beginning of time to inform us that "all people are equal?"" Well there was nothing at the beginning of time to tell us not to kill each other either, but I'm not planning on doing it. Why can't people be considered equal to each other?

I don't believe that all men are conspiring against women, that is ridiculous. But neither do I believe that I am of less worth because I am a woman. I know plenty of men who think that way -for example, one man I know holds the view that women should not be priests because a woman should not be allowed to advise men what to do. Some men pretend to believe in equality whilst unconcsiously seeking to control or own their women like they are posessions. Others are perfectly lovely and realise that WE ARE ALL JUST HUMAN.
I am fed up with the patronising tone of people, male and female, who tell feminists, or people who believe in equality, that they are ridiculous and whining about nothing. Really. They are not.

[jon1jt]

i could never imagine a female president in the place of Ronald Reagan as president to make this statement with the same degree of resolve and how that resolve was interpreted by the Soviets and the world:

"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall!"

[Scheherazade]

i could never imagine a female president in the place of Ronald Reagan as president to make this statement with the same degree of resolve and how that resolve was interpreted by the Soviets and the world:

"Mr. Gorbachev, tare down that wall!"Hah! If Maggie Thatcher had said it, Mr Gorbachev himself would have been tearing the wall down brick by brick the very next day!

;)

[kilted exile]

Hah! If Maggie Thatcher had said it, Mr Gorbachev himself would have been tearing the wall down brick by brick the very next day!

;)

Lets be fair tho' Thatcher doesnt really count as a woman (phrase "spawn of Satan" comes to mind...)

[Nightshade]

I dont get why people hate Thatcher so much.... I suppose it was a have to have lived through it thing I guess.

[Niamh]

Rewriting history? I'm simply stating history as i know it from studying it. And trust me, i'm not rewriting it.
Do you not think that women would not have liked to fight in wars back in the past if they were given the chance? Of course they would have. Some women are apart of many countries armies today, and i'm sure given the opertunity they would have grabbed the chance to do it in the past. But then in saying that, there was Joan of Arc!
And i dont think its right to say that men rewrote laws because women "agitators" made them do it. We shouldnt have had to fight for our rights in the first place.
Also as for rape and demestic violence being on the decline...its not true. In Ireland alone it is believed that in Dublin one woman is raped every day of the year, only a fraction of cases are reported and only 5% of the cases end up in court. Domestic violence is still about. Its not a thing of the past.


Lets be fair tho' Thatcher doesnt really count as a woman (phrase "spawn of Satan" comes to mind...)
As i've said elsewhere... i think she secretly was a man!:p

[Nightshade]

How aobut bodica? and hutchepsouit and the guy who establissed the anciet egyptien middle kingdom.
or shugurt eldorr of course she got too big for her boots and was eventually assasinated by being beaten to death with wooden shoes if I rember correctly and then they invented a great dessert that was supposed to symbloise her dead body ( Its Umm Ali (http://www.allinfoaboutmiddleeastcookery.com/um_ali.html) if any one is in the slightest bit interested).

Actually heres another thing in early islamic history women were part of the army and were encouraged to learn to fencing, archery, ridding and swimming. course with 100 years the old male chauvnistic pre isalmic cultural tendencies took over and it wasnt until ( barring the slight shugert eldoor thing) 1919 that women once again ( in egypt at least) took a part in militanish manor.

[Virgil]

I dont get why people hate Thatcher so much.... I suppose it was a have to have lived through it thing I guess.

I don't hate Thatcher. She was great. Absolutely critical to winning the cold war. Also check what Sarkozy is saying in France. France before Thatcher had a better standard of living than Britain. After Thatcher Britain surpassed France and continues to pull away with the continuation of her free market reforms. France continues to be mired in socialism and is suffering. Today people are leaving France for a better life in England. Great Briatin ought to thank God for electing Thatcher.

[jon1jt]

freedom to choose?

women exercised their freedom to choose in the age of hunters and gatherers in that they chose to be part of that arrangement going out picking wild fruits and vegetables. from my reading of that period, men didn't force women to serve that function. rather, it was an "economic" arrangement that became convenient for both of them.

in the last 300 years, women have marched lock step with the traditions imposed upon them by their parents. women could have rejected the life prepared for them by standing up to their their parents and saying NO as some brave women have done and still do.

the fact is, mothers are quite eager for their daughters to find a good rich husband. and they apply pressure with, "we'd love grandchildren, dear."

is it possible that women are unfeminine (and bitter) today because they are in effect rebelling against the life that their parents decided for them? perhaps more women would be cohabitating were it not for meddlesome, pushy parents.

a man being a bachelor is not perceived as negatively as a woman being a spinster. so it's the woman's fault for submitting to social pressure. men have little to do with that. in fact, men are the victims. :D

[SleepyWitch]

Mr Virgil, last time I checked, the cold war was not won, it just kinda ended.
My politics profs in England even said American and English politicians and conservative gov. thinktanks were taken by surprise when it did. they could never have immagined that someone like Gorbatchev would turn up. all their scenarios involved (nuclear) war and when a group of feminist political scientists was invited to play a role game against the gov.'s specialists, the women predicted what was actually to happen a couple of years later, whereas the gov. team (all guys) nuked all their enemies without provocation just in order not to look like "wimps"

don't remember exactly where I read that, but it was either "Wars, wimps and women: talking gender and thinking war" by Carol Cohn or Bananas, Beaches & Bases - Making Feminist Sense of International Politics by Cynthia Enloe.
they are both renowned political scientists and provide detailed analyses. if you guys have any doubts that/how patriarchy works, these books/articles will be an eye-opener.

[Scheherazade]

Today people are leaving France for a better life in England. Great Briatin ought to thank God for electing Thatcher.Along with Sleepy's comments about the Cold War:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5237236.stm

There are also more links to the related articles on that page.

[SleepyWitch]

interesting article, Scher!

since we're completely off-topic anyway: Dear Mrs Thatcher was against German reunification because she had a somewhat paranoid fear that a reunited Germany would rise again and make trouble. Not only does the illustrate that she missed out on 40 years of post-war history (seeing as Germany and France along with some other countries where the chief architects of the EU, an institution founded to prevent future wars withing Europe), it also seems to indicate that she was willing to let East Germans live under a totalitarian and inhumane regime for some longer.
Now what do you call that?
ok, to be fair, I don't know at what point exactly she said German unification shouldn't be hastened... maybe the SED regime was already phasing out when she said that... but if she was such a great heroine and "won" the Cold War, shouldn't she have been a bit more willing to bring democracy to Eastern Germany?

edit: back on topic: here's another tough nut to crack for our "psychologists"/geneticists/essentialists: What did Mrs Caveman say when she banged her head on the roof of the cave?
a) "Sh*t!" (or its Stone Age equivalent)
b) "Oh, how very unfortunate."
c) she smoothed out the creases in her huge billowing skirt and polished her highheels
d) she farted and scrathed her head

[Niamh]

How aobut bodica? and hutchepsouit and the guy who establissed the anciet egyptien middle kingdom.
or shugurt eldorr of course she got too big for her boots and was eventually assasinated by being beaten to death with wooden shoes if I rember correctly and then they invented a great dessert that was supposed to symbloise her dead body ( Its Umm Ali (http://www.allinfoaboutmiddleeastcookery.com/um_ali.html) if any one is in the slightest bit interested).

Actually heres another thing in early islamic history women were part of the army and were encouraged to learn to fencing, archery, ridding and swimming. course with 100 years the old male chauvnistic pre isalmic cultural tendencies took over and it wasnt until ( barring the slight shugert eldoor thing) 1919 that women once again ( in egypt at least) took a part in militanish manor.

forgot to mention Bodica! Now that was some woman! And we might as well mention Grainneuille (Grace O'Malley), Queen Meave, Queen Elizabeth I (she didnt fight but was one hell of a political figure....And there is some else i'm forgetting, someone really important....

Oh and as for the hunter gatherers.... thats all based on assumptions.Its quite possible that the women in the tribes where also involved in the hunting as well as the gathering. They would also have been able to fashion tools and weapons. Besides back then people where lucky if they could live till they were in their twenties, and many women were lucky if they could live past twelve or fourteen, dying during pregnancy. Infanticide is believed to have been huge back then.:) Survival of the fittest. If a man or woman became crippled or injured in anyway, it is believed they were left behind in the settlements weaving baskets, cooking food and looking after the young.

[Lote-Tree]

Oh and as for the hunter gatherers.... thats all based on assumptions.Its quite possible that the women in the tribes where also involved in the hunting as well as the gathering.


Nay. It is not possible. Women rather wash their hair than go hunting. Hunting is man's business. And we do it really well :D

[Riesa]

Sure, women encouraged the men to go off and hunt, on the slim chance that one of them might be gored by a wild boar through the testicles. :lol: Thereby leaving the women more time to eat berries, gossip and wash their hair. :p

[Lote-Tree]

Sure, women encouraged the men to go off and hunt, on the slim chance that one of them might be gored by a wild boar through the testicles. :lol: Thereby leaving the women more time to eat berries, gossip and wash their hair. :p

My my Riesa, you seem to be a closet MANSOGYNIST :D

[Nightshade]

What is the opposite of misogynist anyway?


Edit the answer is misandrist --

A person, esp. a woman, who hates men; a man-hater

[Lote-Tree]

What is the opposite of misogynist anyway?


Edit the answer is misandrist --

Can I not invent my own words Nighty?

I think it is called "witticism" :D

[Riesa]

My my Riesa, you seem to be a closet MANSOGYNIST :D


I only give what I get, I am the ultimate female, all charity. ;) Do unto others as they do unto you. Do unto thine brothers what they have, without cease, done unto you.. :p

Of course women are different than men. How can we see eye to eye? It'll never happen. But both sexes have an amazing capacity to love, so perhaps it's within reason to expect some understanding, even perhaps a boost up from our masculine counterparts, as opposed to a boot in the face, which women have been given with mud and feces full force, regardless of what Jon says. :p

It's difficult to be women or men, because the definition is constantly shifting. What we all need to be is true to our own identity, (which I think was Jon's underlying point to begin with) but the odds against most of us accomplishing that truly are staggeringly high.

Some of us can, others have bound themselves, whether it be through a misguided sense of duty to one's parents, religion, or societal structure, a duty which is as real and substantial as the iron bars of a cell.

I'm trying to break out, but I am not a mansogynist, ;) :D My only true enemy is my self, and my own lack of vision, I admit it, I'm a selfsogynist. :)

[Lote-Tree]

I'm trying to break out, but I am not a mansogynist, ;)


Bueno! But I was only joking :D



and my own lack of vision, I admit it, I'm a selfsogynist. :)

Then we must be two of a kind...I hope there more like us.

[Nightshade]

Can I not invent my own words Nighty?

I think it is called "witticism" :D

Yeah it was more of a tangent random thought like oh that reminds me what IS the......

[Virgil]

Along with Sleepy's comments about the Cold War:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5237236.stm

There are also more links to the related articles on that page.

Really? Surveys are meaningless. That just reflects people's frustrations, which are always there. People physically moving is a whole different real matter. Check this out:


France’s young flock to Britain
Matthew Campbell Paris

THIS Wednesday Marine Fretel, an intelligent, well-educated young French woman, will board a train to London. She has let her Paris flat, packed a large suitcase and said goodbye to family and friends.

She does not expect to return. Fretel is one of the “Eurostar generation” of French professionals fleeing to London and other cities abroad in the hope of better careers in a land of opportunity.

The farewell parties held each week in Paris are multiplying, and although the government puts a brave face on the exodus, this rush for the exit is an embarrassing symptom of chronic French woes as the country prepares to pick its new president.

A dearth of jobs in France, the world’s fifth largest economy, has turned London, less than three hours from Paris by Eurostar, into an eldorado for young professionals such as Fretel. Friends in London have told her that the British capital, unlike the one she is leaving behind, is a “city of dreams”.
[Snip] Read the rest here: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1719875.ece


Mr Virgil, last time I checked, the cold war was not won, it just kinda ended.
My politics profs in England even said American and English politicians and conservative gov. thinktanks were taken by surprise when it did. they could never have immagined that someone like Gorbatchev would turn up. all their scenarios involved (nuclear) war and when a group of feminist political scientists was invited to play a role game against the gov.'s specialists, the women predicted what was actually to happen a couple of years later, whereas the gov. team (all guys) nuked all their enemies without provocation just in order not to look like "wimps"


That may be true they were taken by surprise. What does that have to do with whether it was won? The last time I checked the Soviet Union was fragmented into all sorts of countries and Russia has returned as a nation with its central church. Last time I checked none of the countries that were swallowed into the Soviet Union claims to have a communist government or economic system. Last time I checked NATO still existed, in fact now includes Poland, Hungary, Chech, Slovakia, and others, including now the Baltic countries, actuall Soviet Union satellite nations. Last time I checked East Germany is now part of a free Germany consoldated into a Western country with the Berlin Wall torn down as that great American President once urged. I call that a catagorical victory. I leave you with the prediction that Ronald Reagan had in a famous 1982 speech:

"It is the Soviet Union that runs against the tide of history.... [It is] the march of freedom and democracy which will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history as it has left other tyrannies which stifle the freedom and muzzle the self-expression of the people."
Ronald Reagan, 1982 (in a speech to Britain's Parliament)

The Soviet Union is "officially in the ash heap of history."

[Lote-Tree]

Yeah it was more of a tangent random thought like oh that reminds me what IS the......

Come Nighty accept the Suprior Wit :D

[Niamh]

That may be true they were taken by surprise. What does that have to do with whether it was won? The last time I checked the Soviet Union was fragmented into all sorts of countries and Russia has returned as a nation with its central church. Last time I checked none of the countries that were swallowed into the Soviet Union claims to have a communist government or economic system. Last time I checked NATO still existed, in fact now includes Poland, Hungary, Chech, Slovakia, and others, including now the Baltic countries, actuall Soviet Union satellite nations. Last time I checked East Germany is now part of a free Germany consoldated into a Western country with the Berlin Wall torn down as that great American President once urged. I call that a catagorical victory. I leave you with the prediction that Ronald Reagan had in a famous 1982 speech:

"It is the Soviet Union that runs against the tide of history.... [It is] the march of freedom and democracy which will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history as it has left other tyrannies which stifle the freedom and muzzle the self-expression of the people."
Ronald Reagan, 1982 (in a speech to Britain's Parliament)

The Soviet Union is "officially in the ash heap of history."

Just because the USSR eventually broke, doesnt mean it was won by the USA. It was never won, just dissipated.

[Riesa]

Bueno! But I was only joking :D

Si, yo sabia. :) 'cept some days are better than others when it comes to controlling my deep resentment and malcontent regarding men. :lol:




Then we must be two of a kind...I hope there more like us.

Now that is a scary thought. :lol:

[Lote-Tree]

Si, yo sabia. :) 'cept some days are better than others when it comes to controlling my deep resentment and malcontent regarding men. :lol:


Men are not that bad - all they want is to be loved :D
Like the way their mothers did :D



Now that is a scary thought. :lol:

Don't worry the world be a peaceable place if it was like this :D

[Niamh]

Men are not that bad - all they want is to be loved :D
Like the way their mothers did :D




So a mans aspiration in life is to be molly coddled. It all makes sense!:p (i think i'll become a hermit)

[Lote-Tree]

So a mans aspiration in life is to be molly coddled. It all makes sense!:p


It's our birthright :D



(i think i'll become a hermit)
[/quote]

It's your loss Princess Elfinore :D

[Scheherazade]

Really? Surveys are meaningless. That just reflects people's frustrations, which are always there. People physically moving is a whole different real matter. Check this out:You check this out:

The French embassy says there are 270,000 French people living in the UK, though others say there are many more, perhaps as many as 350,000. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5048428.stm

In fifteen years the number of British people who have their main residence in France has multiplied tenfold, from 50,000 in 1990 to 500,000 in 2006.http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france_159/discovering-france_2005/france-from-to-z_1978/country_2004/tourism-in-france_5501/the-english-in-france_9434.html

[Riesa]

Men are not that bad - all they want is to be loved :D
Like the way their mothers did :D


Okay, here's the deal, a lift up in exchange for a little "molly-coddling" as Niamh so delightfully says. :D It is my nature to nurture, but it does get old nurturing large, hard-of-hearing, stubborn children with fussy attitudes and five o'clock shadow.


Don't worry the world be a peaceable place if it was like this :D

Here's to peace between us. I don't doubt that the world would be a better place with a few more like you, Lote-Tree. :)

[Virgil]

You check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5048428.stm
http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/france_159/discovering-france_2005/france-from-to-z_1978/country_2004/tourism-in-france_5501/the-english-in-france_9434.html

Well perhaps you should read it more carefuloly:


The English in France
The British have been coming to France for a long time now. This transient population from across the Channel is very familiar to the French - with the holidaymakers and retirees who have set up second homes in the South West of the country. But in recent years, it has been whole families that have come to settle and work in the French countryside.

It is an accepted fact that France is one of the world’s top holiday destinations. Its climate, lifestyle, culture, architecture and tourist facilities make it a very attractive country. It is more surprising to find an influx of Europeans coming to settle here, whether in the major cities or in the countryside. A significant number of Germans, Dutch, but above all English people, are now to be found all over the country.

In fifteen years the number of British people who have their main residence in France has multiplied tenfold, from 50,000 in 1990 to 500,000 in 2006. Until the end of the 1990s, these were mostly wealthy retired people coming to spend their twilight years in the south of France. Today, ever more middle-class families are moving here with their children, mainly to Périgord, Dordogne or the Côte d’Azur.

In most cases, they sell the property they own in the United Kingdom, buy a property in France, and use the surplus to do it up or take early retirement. The South West remains their favourite place, in spite of a rise in prices which is the result of the increase in property demand that they themselves have helped create. According to José-Alain Fralon, in his book “Au secours les Anglais nous envahissent” [Help, the English are Invading Us], 1 % of the population of Dordogne, nicknamed “a little piece of England in France”, is now British.

Sounds like it's people who have made their money in the Briitsh economy and buying up French property. The French going the other way are going to England for jobs. Sounds like the British going to France are enjoying their British prosperity.

[Scheherazade]

Well perhaps you should read it more carefuloly:



Sounds like it's people who have made their money in the Briitsh economy and buying up French property. The French going the other way are going to England for jobs. Sounds like the British going to France are enjoying their British prosperity.I am reading rather carefull, Virgil:
...But in recent years, it has been whole families that have come to settle and work in the French countryside... Until the end of the 1990s, these were mostly wealthy retired people coming to spend their twilight years in the south of France. Today, ever more middle-class families are moving here with their children, mainly to Périgord, Dordogne or the Côte d’Azur....Guess, we all interpret things differently.

Have a nice day, Virgil.

[Riesa]

egads! have you two learned nothing from Lote-Tree's and my exchange???!!!!

:lol:

[Virgil]

I am reading rather carefull, Virgil:Guess, we all interpret things differently.

Have a nice day, Virgil.

You forgot the last paragraph:


This peaceful immigration crosses another flow of migration, that of young French people who are leaving in increasing numbers to settle in London to look for work, which is better paid than in France. Even if the English are fond of making jokes about the French and vice versa, it seems that between the two peoples, it is - more than ever - a time of entente cordiale.

Good night. ;)


egads! have you two learned nothing from Lote-Tree's and my exchange???!!!!

:lol:

No, I guess not. Scher and I share a particular characteristic, an internal drive to never lose a debate. :lol: I know it drives my wife nuts, and I wonder how Scher's husband handles it? :lol: I don't have any grudges toward Scher, and I hope she doen't have any toward me. Actually I respect that type of gumption. :)

[kilted exile]

A quick comment. Too much credit is being given to the parasite for the current UK position economically. Any effect of the thatcherite govt on the economy was wiped out by Black Monday in the early '90's. They gave us boom & bust, things have gotten progressively better under the chancellorship of Brown (who is by no means a thatcherite) to the extent that people from other countries now want to follow the UK way of doing things & move there (only moving to certain areas however - industrial cities are still bearing witness to the evil ones policies) If Little Miss "There's no such thing as society" was so great, they wouldnt have waited until 15 years after she left to start moving over.

Ok, politics over for the week.

[Lote-Tree]

It is my nature to nurture, but it does get old nurturing large, hard-of-hearing, stubborn children with fussy attitudes and five o'clock shadow.


We suffer in our natures :D



Here's to peace between us. I don't doubt that the world would be a better place with a few more like you, Lote-Tree. :)

Bueno! And it is very important insight to be able to see your own inadquacies and flaws and it is a noble goal to try to better yourself :D

[Virgil]

A quick comment. Too much credit is being given to the parasite for the current UK position economically. Any effect of the thatcherite govt on the economy was wiped out by Black Monday in the early '90's. They gave us boom & bust, things have gotten progressively better under the chancellorship of Brown (who is by no means a thatcherite) to the extent that people from other countries now want to follow the UK way of doing things & move there (only moving to certain areas however - industrial cities are still bearing witness to the evil ones policies) If Little Miss "There's no such thing as society" was so great, they wouldnt have waited until 15 years after she left to start moving over.

Ok, politics over for the week.

I couldn't find the Black Monday scenario Kilt. I assume you mean this Black Wednesday of 1992 as described in Wiki on Britain's economy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Britain#1990.E2.80.931997:_the _Major_years


In 1990 Margaret Thatcher stood down from the office of Prime Minister after not getting the political support she felt she needed to continue. John Major was elected her successor.

The British pound was tied to EU exchange rates, using the Deutsche Mark as a basis, as part of the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM); however, this resulted in disaster for Britain. The restrictions imposed by the ERM put pressure on the pound, leading to a run on the currency, initiated by George Soros. Black Wednesday in 1992 ended British membership of the ERM but also brought about a deep recession, affecting many who had benefitted from the economic boom of the late 1980s. It also damaged the Conservatives' credibility of economic management, and contributed to the end of the 18 years of consecutive Conservative government in 1997.

If that is so, then the Black Wednesday described there had nothing to do with Thatcher's freemarket reforms. It was a currency problem linked to continental europe exchange rates. I don't see how you're blaming Thatcher for that. The fact remains, before Thatcher British government own most of Britain's industries; after Thatcher it owns very little and neither Major or Blair changed that. In fact both supported it whole-heartedly.

[Shalot]

I haven't really been following this thread at all but i thought Black Monday was the Monday after the Thanksgiving holiday. The people who don't go Christmas shopping the day after Thanksgiving will log on to the internet Monday at work and start buying Christmas presents online. or those who forgot someone during their mad shopping on Friday will make online purchases on Monday. Or maybe I am misaken.

[Virgil]

I haven't really been following this thread at all but i thought Black Monday was the Monday after the Thanksgiving holiday. The people who don't go Christmas shopping the day after Thanksgiving will log on to the internet Monday at work and start buying Christmas presents online. or those who forgot someone during their mad shopping on Friday will make online purchases on Monday. Or maybe I am misaken.

No, no, you're not mistaken. That's the Black Monday. ;)

[papayahed]

your correct but it's called Black Friday:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Friday_(shopping)


Or s it a Steely Dan song?:D

[Shalot]

Okay I am not going crazy then -- there is another Black Monday other than the what kilted is talking about which is this (I think):


Black Monday is the name given to Monday, October 19, 1987, when the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) dropped dramatically, and on which similar enormous drops occurred across the world. By the end of October, stock markets in Hong Kong had fallen 45.8%, Australia 41.8%, Spain 31%, the United Kingdom 26.4%, the United States 22.68%, and Canada 22.5%. (The terms Black Monday and Black Tuesday are also applied to October 28 and 29, 1929, which occurred after Black Thursday on October 24, which started the Stock Market Crash of 1929.)

The Black Monday decline was the second largest one-day percentage decline in stock market history....

I was talking about this Black Monday (from the Wall Street Jounal):


Online Retailers Gear Up For Busy 'Black Monday'
By Mylene Mangalindan Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

This coming Friday is one of the year's biggest days for shoppers and retailers. But for many, the Web has made the following Monday just as crucial.

With the rapid expansion of the Internet, the Monday after Thanksgiving has grown to be the all-important kickoff of the online holiday shopping season. On that day, consumers head back to work -- and their computers -- ready to shop after the long holiday weekend.

Last year, the Monday after Thanksgiving was the peak day for online transactions, according to VeriSign Payment Services, a unit of eBay Inc.'s PayPal that processes electronic payments ...


Now that I have it straight in my mind you can continue with your debate/discussion :)

[Niamh]

It's our birthright :D

It's your loss Princess Elfinore :D
Not at all! more like relief!:lol:

[Lote-Tree]

Not at all! more like relief!:lol:

You must be very frigid then :D

But we like our Sensuality :D

[Niamh]

You must be very frigid then :D

now now lote! no need to insult me for my jest!

[Lote-Tree]

now now lote! no need to insult me for my jest!

I take that back Niamh. It did not mean to insult...:D