666

[mike thomas]

hellow fellow explorers

Revelation 13:18 refers to the infamous 666.

it says 'understanding' is required to 'count the number of the beast'.

the question is this: what is understanding?

regards

[Redzeppelin]

Probably the "understanding" required might be knowledge of how the number is being "computed" (numerology, alpha-numeric correspondence, etc). Or, it simply could mean that the "understanding" must come from God/Holy Spirit revealing understanding to the believer. In other words, as the end approaches, those being led by God will know the identity of "666" without any special "code-breaking" knowledge.

Good question.

[RichardHresko]

There is a style of quasi-mystical numerological analysis using the Hebrew alphabet known as 'gematriya.' Each letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value, and you can then use the numerical values of the words to "prove" things. For the layman, there is an example of that sort of reasoning in Chaim Potok's book, "The Chosen". I have heard, but am unfamiliar with, a Greek version of this practice.

Considering that various popes, Luther, Napoleon, Hitler and Stalin (among others) have been put forth as candidates, it seems to be a popular sport, and like Macbeth's concept of life, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

(I am obviously not a fan of gnostic mummery.)

[RichardHresko]

Addendum: It may have been Potok's "The Promise." I'll have to check.... Just checked. It was The Chosen

[bazarov]

http://www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/186)

In War and Peace, Tolstoy was dealing with counting, everything is explained.

[Niamh]

Does it actually say the three digits 666 or refere to the no 6, for Samael(asmodeus, chief satan) is i think supposed to be the "head" of the sixth heaven in angelology.

[AngelEyes714]

I was learning about some of the meanings for certain numbers that are constantly referred to in the Bible...

1 = Unity, God's Nature
2 = Witness
3 = Trinity; Past, Present, Future
4 = Earth
5 = Incompletion
6 = Man
7....yada yada yada

So...if you want to go by this number theory (which I think is loosly based off Gematriya, but not certain on that), 666 could refer to Man in the past, present, and future or a Man who masquerades as the Trinity (God)...

Just a thought

[tudwell]

There is a style of quasi-mystical numerological analysis using the Hebrew alphabet known as 'gematriya.' Each letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value, and you can then use the numerical values of the words to "prove" things. For the layman, there is an example of that sort of reasoning in Chaim Potok's book, "The Chosen". I have heard, but am unfamiliar with, a Greek version of this practice.

And it's using either the Hebrew or the Greek version of this practice that some scholars have come to the conclusion that the number 666 corresponds to the Roman emperor Nero, who was notorious for persecuting Christians. Many believe that Revelations is not in fact prophecy, but social commentary, urging fellow Christians to stand up and fight the opposing authorities.

[Lambert]

Sorry to point this out, but there has been evidence recently to suggest that the number 666 in the bible is a mis-translation, and that the actually number is 616.

Short piece about it here: http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm

[RichardHresko]

Tudwell writes:

"And it's using either the Hebrew or the Greek version of this practice that some scholars have come to the conclusion that the number 666 corresponds to the Roman emperor Nero, who was notorious for persecuting Christians."

I had forgotten to add Nero to the list. Thanks! Being from Brooklyn, I had heard that Walter O'Malley also was so accused. Appropriately, that story is probably apocryphal...

On a more serious note, one wonders whether it is useful to engage in such speculations, given Paul's warnings to the Thessalonians about such matters. Plus, there is little reason to suspect based on either philosophy or solid theology that God has a "hidden" message based on anagrams and acrostics. It smacks too much of Captain Video decoder rings and the like. Perhaps Einstein said it best, "The Lord is subtle but not perverse."

[mike thomas]

read it but believed it not.

number 666? its simple, the understanding is the hard bit.

if anyone wants to see exactly how the man, number and beast came into being, I would be only to glad to demonstrate.


the qusetion remains therefore; what is understanding: where does the word come from?

all the best

tanx for the response

nero is a (Greek) word I rarely use without stinking.

regards

[mike thomas]

Sorry to point this out, but there has been evidence recently to suggest that the number 666 in the bible is a mis-translation, and that the actually number is 616.

Short piece about it here: http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm


The translation from Greek into English is definitly 600 60 and 6, so the Greek Scholars say. In fact, pick up a copy of the Greek NT, and check it out yourself.

I think Rev 13: 17 is a very interesting verse too.

regards

[tudwell]

On a more serious note, one wonders whether it is useful to engage in such speculations, given Paul's warnings to the Thessalonians about such matters. Plus, there is little reason to suspect based on either philosophy or solid theology that God has a "hidden" message based on anagrams and acrostics.

Not God, the writer of Revelations. Revelations was written in a time when Christians were greatly persecuted by the Romans. It was meant to give them hope, that one day they would triumph. I'm pretty sure that's the way most of the prophecy in the Bible is meant to be taken: not as literal prophecy, but as allegory for contemporaneous events. Revelations is no different.

[mike thomas]

Not God, the writer of Revelations. Revelations was written in a time when Christians were greatly persecuted by the Romans. It was meant to give them hope, that one day they would triumph. I'm pretty sure that's the way most of the prophecy in the Bible is meant to be taken: not as literal prophecy, but as allegory for contemporaneous events. Revelations is no different.

Interesting and thoughtful responses!

Nero is recorded by either Tacitus or Josephus (can't remember which) as being involved with the torching of Rome. He is also recorded *** having married a man. All this in the same texts as the Christians and Pythagoreans - both disgusting groups as far as the Romans were concerned.

If anyone has the texts please let me know exactly what it says, I haven't read it for some time.


As far as the number 666 etc goes, and from where I stand, if it's in the book, its fair game to dig. I mean, what's the point of writing Revelations unless there's something to reveal? And because the Book of Revelations is constructed either as ciphers or metaphores, then we are entightled to explore the subject.

Rev 13:18 is quite plain it its message: here is wisdom etc. I know Paul hates anyone but himself to have wisdom. but then again Paul seems to dislike many things which disagree with his particular take on Christianity.

If we are not supposed to probe into Scripture, what are we supposed to do? Accept everything on face value?

As for God leaving anagrams etc, I don't know about God, but a man imprisoned on a Greek isle (such as the writer of Revealations is supposed to have been) might well have been tempted to pop an anagram or two into his texts. Who knows.


From where I stand, it was a different leader and set of disciples that were behind all 'Christian' Scripture. The New Testament was their Trojan Horse, so to speak. But that's another subject.

In passing: I wonder where the Book of Enoch comes into all of this?

Best regards

[Pendragon]

Have you ever read a book called The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop? It might be of interest.

[weepingforloman]

Almost every culture in the period of Revelations (or at least almost every Mediterranean culture) had a system of numerology. What has been suggested to me, and which I found most helpful, is that 7 is the perfect number (in Hebrew numerology) and 6 is one short of 7: the "trinity of evil" (the Beasts and the false prophet) all fall short of perfection, they are not God, though they claim to be.