A passage in the bible

[NikolaiI]

I was going to start a thread to ask what people thought about a particular passage, but I forgot what it was. Don't close this thread! You know it would be valid if I could add a detail of the passage and was asking people which one it was! But actually I was hoping to discuss bible passages, although not favorite ones or anything. My structure was going to be: "What does this______ passage mean to you?" I suppose my goal is a discussion on bible passages, (but not favorites) and a search in general for the one I was thinking of; my lost thought process, now sacrificed to lit-net.

[RichardHresko]

Here's a passage to start:
"Give strong drink to him who is perishing, and wine to those who are bitter of heart." Proverbs 31:6.

If nothing else, it starts us in a light-hearted vein, especially of we heed the advice...

[Pendragon]

Well, I really intended to not post in this section again, Rich, but here goes:
Let's back up a couple verses, and include the one after:

Proverbs 31:

[4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
[5] Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
[6] Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
[7] Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

I'm gonna tell you straight out that this verse has always bothered me. It was used with great success against Carrie (Carry) Nation, (read about her here: http://www.kshs.org/exhibits/carry/carry1.htm ) the Bible and hatchet lady who lead the war against "the demon rum" and busted up a lot of saloons. Desperate bartenders began to search the Bible, and used this verse, and Paul's words to Timothy, 1Tim.5:

[23] Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

posting them on large signs in the bars. Carrie could not deny they were in the Bible, so she had to walk out.

My personal opinion is that the warning is that constant use of alcohol is usually a sign of depression or other problems that people are trying to drink to forget. The verse in Timothy refers to using it as medicine. Red wine, a single glass a day has been proven very beneficial to one's health. If one is prone to kidney stones, a single beer a day is good for flushing out the kidneys.

I don't think the Bible supports drunkenness for any reason.

God Bless

Pen

[RichardHresko]

I agree that the Bible does not promote drunkenness. Being part Irish, and thus the offspring of kings, I struggled hard with Proverbs 31:4 until I realized that Guinness doesn't fall under the rubric. :)

I will however emphasize that the Bible does evince in the quote that I mentioned as well as the ones you have brought up that the drinking of alcohol is certainly permitted. Further, Christ's first miracle was to make not only wine but really good wine.

The overall point is that it is a mistake in Christianity to be too restrictive and too dour. Too often we seem to try to make more rules to be safe instead of letting conscience and reason aid us. As Paul wrote: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful" (I Cor 10:23). Thus I think it was good that Carry Nation was stymied. To paraphrase a proverb, Too many rules spoil the thought.

[Pendragon]

I will however emphasize that the Bible does evince in the quote that I mentioned as well as the ones you have brought up that the drinking of alcohol is certainly permitted. Further, Christ's first miracle was to make not only wine but really good wine.

The overall point is that it is a mistake in Christianity to be too restrictive and too dour. Too often we seem to try to make more rules to be safe instead of letting conscience and reason aid us. As Paul wrote: "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful" (I Cor 10:23). Thus I think it was good that Carry Nation was stymied. To paraphrase a proverb, Too many rules spoil the thought. And here, we will agree. The laws in the Bible are always against drinking to excess, which causes harm to your body and mind, and kills hundreds every year from driving while drunk, or loosing contol and comminting crimes in a drunken rage. It doesn't say you cannot drink as I mentioned, a little, enjoy a glass of fine wine, or your Guinness at the end of the day. But too much and you cross the line. I don't think everyone has the same limit. One like my dad, who would even drink after shave, needed to drink no alcohol. I can drink none, for it would have adverse affects on my medications. Others, are different. I don't judge, for I cannot drink now, but when I did, I liked Tequila and Burbon, and my beer choice was Michelob. I was no better than the next man, and the taste of a good margretia still lingers on.

God Bless

Pen

[NikolaiI]

Pascal said, "give a man too much to drink, and he cannot see the truth. Give him too little, and he cannot see it either."

Thank you guys for posting. I thought this thread was buried, or gone to the dogs or however you say. :)

[Demian]

How about common mistranslations in the Bible? For instance, the passage from Psalms that states 'for you have made them a little lower than the Angels' was originally '...than the gods.' Jesus also said, "Do you not know that you are gods?" My question is this: In the context of these verses are the gods to be understood in purely metaphorical terms? In the first verse mankind is placed below the gods and in the second one mankind is equated with them directly. How should these verses be viewed through the spectacles of what is now a monotheistic faith?

[Pendragon]

OK. I tracked down the verses...

Psalms 8: [5] For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2: [7] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
[9] But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

I woundn't say that "angels" was the wrong translation in Psalms, unless somehow the Greek is also wrong in stating the same thing in Hebrews. Two different languages, same error, is too much coincidence.


Psalms 82: [6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

St, John 10: [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Here Jesus as you see, quotes Psalm 82:6, another point about the translation not being wrong.

Man certainly doesn't have the power of a God, as powerful as we have become through study and science we are not all powerful or all knowing. The power of an Angel, with the ability to destroy and appear and vanish, I would say man approaches. In the Bible angels destroyed though pestilence and fire. Man uses Weapons of Mass Destruction, and Germ Warfare. That will do the same.

IMO, the whole thing is that we were not meant to be destroyers as the angels were in the Bible, we were to be like God, and to be teachers of the way to get along with each other rather than sit behind weapons and wait for the next World War.

God Bless

Pen

[Demian]

This turning from the path of war was probably why Jesus admonished his followers when they asked if he would bring 'fire down from Heaven' like Elijah did.

[Whifflingpin]

Pen: "The power of an Angel, with the ability to destroy and appear and vanish, I would say man approaches. In the Bible angels destroyed though pestilence and fire. Man uses Weapons of Mass Destruction, and Germ Warfare. That will do the same. "

"Angel" merely means "messenger." Angels, presumably, are beings with no power of their own, merely vessels or conduits for the transmission of God's power. Men can certainly equal angels in their capacity as God's messengers - prophets for instance, one of whom adopted the name Malachi (Hebrew for "My angel" or "My messenger,") - or evangelists, bearers of God's good message.

Pen quotes Psalms 82: [6] I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Take this in context, the words are certainly metaphorical (although James VI of Scotland used them to justify his doctrine of the divine right of kings.)
The whole psalm indicates that rulers have some of the power of gods, but they misuse that power and will certainly die the death of humans. The psalm is a plea for deliverance from those who abuse the authority that God has delegated to them.

[Pendragon]

Pen: "The power of an Angel, with the ability to destroy and appear and vanish, I would say man approaches. In the Bible angels destroyed though pestilence and fire. Man uses Weapons of Mass Destruction, and Germ Warfare. That will do the same. "

"Angel" merely means "messenger." Angels, presumably, are beings with no power of their own, merely vessels or conduits for the transmission of God's power. Men can certainly equal angels in their capacity as God's messengers - prophets for instance, one of whom adopted the name Malachi (Hebrew for "My angel" or "My messenger,") - or evangelists, bearers of God's good message.

Consider that two angels went to Sodom to destroy the place, The Death Angel visited Egypt as one of the curses, 2 Samuel 24 records an angel destroying Jeruselm with pestilence, etc. The war in heaven indicates power of angels. Angel indeed means messenger, sometimes the message comes as an utlimatium, or with force.

God Bless

Pen

[Demian]

I wanted to change the tone a bit and see if anyone wants to discuss Ecclesiastes? This was my favorite book at one time, but after reading it again it appears to be the closest thing to an atheistic book in the whole Bible. Today I would name a few other books before this one as favorites-perhaps my faith has increased because I favor the Prophets. What is your take on the wise sayings of the preacher? If Solomon did write this, was it only after becoming an apostate and setting up shrines for Baal?

[rich14285]

St, John 10: [34] Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Here Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6, and so ya got me thinking on this one, and here tis: The issue is right judgement. Jesus was not being judged rightly. Additionally, I found Exodus 4, KJV, verse 16, "And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God." In other words, the issue becomes what Joshua 9.14., if you will, calls "the mouth of the Lord". That is to suggest that Aaron will be "the mouth of the Lord" to Pharaoh, because of "the way" that the word proceeds from oracle to the people or from "the mouth of the Lord" to the people. The way in Exodus 4 is established by God in response to Moses saying that he is not very good with words, or might not know exactly what to say, at any rate, a reader who understands that the woman whom Moses married had a priest for a father, and that man, father in law to Moses, gave Moses oracles, and given this then we read the way that the word proceeds from the oracles to Moses to Aaron to the people. Or, from "the mouth of the Lord" aka the oracle of God, to Moses, the "Seer" of the oracle, or of "light" and "perfection" of the word of God, via the oracle. And the way established again, is from the "Seer", later called Prophet, to the person whose mouth becomes instead of the Seer's mouth, thus what Moses says to Aaron is from "the mouth of the Lord", and in this sense the mouth of Moses becomes instead of "the mouth of Lord" to Aaron, his elder brother. Again the way that the word proceeds is from "the mouth of the Lord" to Moses to Aaron to the people or to Pharaoh. This way apparantly changes after the exodus out of Egypt, that is at the giving of the second law at Mt Sinaii. For when Joshua replaces Moses as the undershepherd, and Eleazar replaces Aaron, it is Eleazar who becomes the "Seer" - and therefore as Numbers 27 says, in verses 18-21:
18."And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;
19. And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him a charge in their sight.
20.And thou shalt put some of thine honour upon him, that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient.
21.And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the LORD: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation."
In other words, the sheep will follow their new shepherd because they see that he Joshua has replaced their old shepherd Moses, and therefore Joshua now stands in the way of the Lord. And therefore his mouth will be to the sheep instead of the mouth of the Lord because Eleazar will see the word for Joshua, and will tell Joshua the word of the Lord who will then tell the people the word of the Lord. Joshua then leads the congregation into the Promised land. After the taking of the land, every man went his own way, until Samuel was raised up, and he too was a "Seer", and Samuel anoints Saul, (But Saul fails to honor "the way"), and then anoints David (who honors the way). But as time went on the way again was not honored by subsequent kings. However, Deuteronomy 8.2 "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no."

This I believe has something to do with why Jesus says: (after citing the first half of Psalm 82.6) - (John 10)verse 35. "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"
Have a nice day!

[Pendragon]

An excellent handling of the scripture, Rich.