I am you: Division is an Illusion

[blazeofglory]

This may sound enigmatic. How can two persons be the same one person? But go spiritually or even logically and scientifically we permeate one another deeply and profoundly despite the fact that on the surface we may not appear so. To comprehend this intricacy we should meditate deeply on universal questions. I feel I am you no matter many things distance between you and me. The first is geography: you may be a thousand miles away from me, but this writing will wire you to me, and when you read what I write you will enter into my being. This is a very subtle matter and hard to understand. You keep on plumbing deeper and deeper and you will unlayer yourslef, all your prejudices, your discriminatory mind sets, your cultural attributes, beleifs and disbeliefs you will come upon a state wherein everything evaporates and distances between you and me will start thining out or get narrower and narrower.

Deep down I feel at times that this world is a huge tree. It is collosally and infinitely towering and branching out far and wide or universally and we are leaves and though we exist separately and distantly from one another, but we take a sip at the same tree, this universal tree. The earth is not an inanimate object and as lively, animate and vital as we are.

Why do you distance me in point of fact. Because all kinds of prejudices intervene between me and you. First you may think you are of a high heeled class and you may feel you are superior beings, you may be better educated, or be a man of developed western countries and those of the east are bit lowbred and your highbrow-ism will distance me from you. But think deeply these are simply veneers, smokescreens and remove them things will be transparent to you and you will see the truth of it fully, indivisibly and integrally.

There exists like impediments between you and me, a variety of gaps: communication gaps, cultural gaps, educational gaps, economic gaps, geographical gaps. They pose difficulties in understanding one another.

I will give you one example: why marriages do not take place across castes, creeds, origins? Because these are veneers and you feel mutually exclusive and distanced. Now through globalization, assimilation, acculturation people are getting more and more integrated. Now inter-castes, inter-cultures, inter-countries or cross-border marriages are taking place. Such new developments are bridging us today.

I may be not good at expressing all that I want say, being a Nepali owing to my poor English, but I hope you will find elements of truth in what I say.

[NikolaiI]

I'm also not so good at expressing this idea, but last night during my meditations I came up with a response. This was actually before I read your post, after just seeing your title, and also some other posts, but I had to get up to write down what was on my mind. I hope it makes at least a little sense.

Blaze, are you and I the only two persons on this site, out of so many, that understand this, that you are me and I am you? that we are all one? It is the teaching of many, and it is a beautiful understanding we have discovered. I speak it to you now, from heart to heart, and from the height and depth of my meditations, we are all one. It is good to know that another life has taken another person to this wisdom, parallel and separate from myself. I do have a hard time explaining in discourse what I feel, because it is a spontaneous joy I feel at reading how another has come to this realization, this joyful wisdom. In assuming that you have had other similarly powerful realizations as well, I celebrate that I have found a kindred spirit. For since we both have realized this Buddha-wisdom, I can assume you've also realized other Buddha-wisdom, and you are compassionate as well, since, is this realization not the product of empathy? It is the logical realization that we are all unawakened Buddhas, and I assume something about your person, too, that everyone loves you. And if they don't, then join me with a hundred Buddhas around us who love us, and see that we are in the Pure Land. Let us now further share this wisdom with others, not with philosophy, but with sincere acts of kindness and generosity, and with silence, and let us awaken all we lay eyes on. Yours, in peace and understanding.

[blazeofglory]

I'm also not so good at expressing this idea, but last night during my meditations I came up with a response. This was actually before I read your post, after just seeing your title, and also some other posts, but I had to get up to write down what was on my mind. I hope it makes at least a little sense.

Blaze, are you and I the only two persons on this site, out of so many, that understand this, that you are me and I am you? that we are all one? It is the teaching of many, and it is a beautiful understanding we have discovered. I speak it to you now, from heart to heart, and from the height and depth of my meditations, we are all one. It is good to know that another life has taken another person to this wisdom, parallel and separate from myself. I do have a hard time explaining in discourse what I feel, because it is a spontaneous joy I feel at reading how another has come to this realization, this joyful wisdom. In assuming that you have had other similarly powerful realizations as well, I celebrate that I have found a kindred spirit. For since we both have realized this Buddha-wisdom, I can assume you've also realized other Buddha-wisdom, and you are compassionate as well, since, is this realization not the product of empathy? It is the logical realization that we are all unawakened Buddhas, and I assume something about your person, too, that everyone loves you. And if they don't, then join me with a hundred Buddhas around us who love us, and see that we are in the Pure Land. Let us now further share this wisdom with others, not with philosophy, but with sincere acts of kindness and generosity, and with silence, and let us awaken all we lay eyes on. Yours, in peace and understanding.

Nikolai, I have read several posts of you and all of yours are profoundly revealing and here you mirror the feeling I have. In fact Nikolai, I feeling like permeating one and all. Having said this I am not vainglorious. I live with adversities and weaknesses, and I am also living with good and bad motives like the rest of others. The saint motive is predominant in me at times and I feel kind and compassionate and at other times the Devil posseses me and my predilections or patterns of behaviors will be shaped by that devilish nature.

However when I under go stages of meditations, as meditations is integral part of me and I never can think about abandoning it, under any circumstance.That time I feel really elevated spiritually. I feel really sublimated. Impulses of sublimity engulf me. Then all my prejudices, arrogance, and the idea that I am superior to the rest in terms of my educational level and a better financial background will evaporate. I feel at one with one and all across different social strata and classes.
Nikolai, I do not know why at times when I have this feeling, the feeling that we are one, an indivisible one across social statuses and educational and financial backgrounds.

Sometimes I choose to go around slums and settlements where the poor live, in fact Nepal had many such slums, and observe them deeply, their behavioristic patterns all that I feel is we are not better off because we reside in big mansions. And I feel they are in pristine harmony with nature and with one another.

In fact all I want to express here is we are not better off, and all of us are organically one big whole and if any difference remains shallow and seeming. All my preoccupations I have garnered from the society I belong to melt away. I do not know it is a spiritual reveleation. No it can not be so and if I claim so I will be vainglorious and arrogant.

But yet the feeling, if not always, is very intesne at times that I and the rest of my fellow beings and even animate and seeming inanimate beings are one integral. I live with this feeling and will be in rapture, I do not know this is spiritual or anything unnamed.

I undergo such feelings at times. I am poor at expressing my ideas or the state I undergo, for this language is a borrowed one, Yet need to prune it so that I can permeate larger numbers of people, my fellow beings that are distanced from me because of this linguistic, cultural, or social barriers. I must transcend all to be at one with all.

[Lote-Tree]

I may be not good at expressing all that I want say, being a Nepali owing to my poor English, but I hope you will find elements of truth in what I say.


Your ideas are that of a Pantheist as oppose to Panentheist :-)

[blazeofglory]

Lote-Tree, In fact I did not post these ideas keeping in mind any particular notions and if you could keep them in a container of some philosophical notions, it is all up to you. This is actually out of what I really feel and think independently letting no outside ideas influence me. And if your ideas of pantheism matches it is out of sheer coincidence. I am not a student of philosphy and am little equipped with philosophical ideas.

However Buddhism appeal to me immensely and I got great inspirations from sufism, zenism and some thing from Gibran.

[NikolaiI]

Nikolai, I have read several posts of you and all of yours are profoundly revealing and here you mirror the feeling I have. In fact Nikolai, I feeling like permeating one and all. Having said this I am not vainglorious. I live with adversities and weaknesses, and I am also living with good and bad motives like the rest of others. The saint motive is predominant in me at times and I feel kind and compassionate and at other times the Devil posseses me and my predilections or patterns of behaviors will be shaped by that devilish nature.

However when I under go stages of meditations, as meditations is integral part of me and I never can think about abandoning it, under any circumstance.That time I feel really elevated spiritually. I feel really sublimated. Impulses of sublimity engulf me. Then all my prejudices, arrogance, and the idea that I am superior to the rest in terms of my educational level and a better financial background will evaporate. I feel at one with one and all across different social strata and classes.
Nikolai, I do not know why at times when I have this feeling, the feeling that we are one, an indivisible one across social statuses and educational and financial backgrounds.

Sometimes I choose to go around slums and settlements where the poor live, in fact Nepal had many such slums, and observe them deeply, their behavioristic patterns all that I feel is we are not better off because we reside in big mansions. And I feel they are in pristine harmony with nature and with one another.

In fact all I want to express here is we are not better off, and all of us are organically one big whole and if any difference remains shallow and seeming. All my preoccupations I have garnered from the society I belong to melt away. I do not know it is a spiritual reveleation. No it can not be so and if I claim so I will be vainglorious and arrogant.

But yet the feeling, if not always, is very intesne at times that I and the rest of my fellow beings and even animate and seeming inanimate beings are one integral. I live with this feeling and will be in rapture, I do not know this is spiritual or anything unnamed.

I undergo such feelings at times. I am poor at expressing my ideas or the state I undergo, for this language is a borrowed one, Yet need to prune it so that I can permeate larger numbers of people, my fellow beings that are distanced from me because of this linguistic, cultural, or social barriers. I must transcend all to be at one with all.

I think you are quite good at expressing yourself, blaze, in fact I admire your writing style and expression. It is a difficult idea to express, especially when it is not one that people take seriously. I very much like your simile of the tree. I think of it like that also. Or a single body, but the tree is a good illustration of that. When you consider it, we are both insignificant to the whole, yet also wholly significant to ourselves and to another. I love the dual nature of our thinking; objective and subjective. Aware and also interdependent. I have always thought that we are both utterly insignificant, yet I also have the idea sometimes that a single person can be influential to all; that everything can hinge on one individual. It seems like with understanding the world could be a better place.

I think everything should be different- but then, this thread is only about an ontology that says we are all one. If we see another person, our neighbour perhaps, not as being a separate person, but as a part of ourselves, it makes morality simpler and more automatic. I learned this from a dharma talk I saw online. Then we practice to understand this as well as possible. As you say we are all full of conflict, be those guilt, fears, anxieties, which do not come to light until we meditate. The Buddha taught that the mind should be transformed, and so that is a goal of meditation. It can be difficult to set aside all comparing, but it is very rewarding when we can do so.

I'm just realizing the last two paragraphs were begun with "I think," and perhaps I was about to start the third this way. I hope it's not that much of a distraction. I'm still sort of new (relatively speaking) at discussing things in this way, and I wasn't fully educated in writing, but I'm trying my best. I can see you are a good writer by your paragraphs, and I am trying to write something worth reading as well.

I understand your wariness of vanity and arrogance. I believe we are all responsible for each other, however. In fact, I am not so attached to my own life. I only consider things from the point of view of myself because I am here in this body and mind, and nowhere else. Beyond that I do not care about myself.

I think the devil who also has a saint motive does not need to worry too much about his devilish nature. You need chaos to birthe a dancing star, and by meditation the chaos and energy inside ourselves is transformed into healing energy. Like you, I am involved with meditation and value it very much, as it is essential to my health and well-being. I am interested in Nepal; I do not know a whole lot about it, but I think it must be beautiful there. I am also interested in discussing philosophy with you. There is one idea that our search for enlightenment or reality is like trying to find 'wetness' while we are in a stream. We splash about, not realizing we are already wet. That, as well as the ideas that Buddha-nature is inside us, from the beginning, we need only to awaken it, and the Buddha's teachings about mind-transformation give me hope. There are a lot of traditions I have not yet explored, and I think many are useful. The Shin Buddhism, for instance, and Nembetsu practice. I have a book on that now, and I am wanting to read it again; I've almost finished it at this point. I know a little more about Zen Buddhism, personally. And I was raised Christian, so that gives me a benefit, too, right?

I am very fascinated by your post and have read it a few times. You live in a place that is so different from where I live. I got a book called Freedom in Exile, the Autobiography of the Dalai Lama, written in 1990; I'm hoping it will enlighten me some about the region. I look forward to your reply, and good luck with your meditation.

[Lote-Tree]

This is actually out of what I really feel and think independently letting no outside ideas influence me.


Independent Thinking - Bueno! but reinventing the wheel yourself? would that not be waste of time and energy?



And if your ideas of pantheism matches it is out of sheer coincidence. I am not a student of philosphy and am little equipped with philosophical ideas.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism




However Buddhism appeal to me immensely and I got great inspirations from sufism, zenism and some thing from Gibran.

Yep they can be inspiring.

I meditate regularly myself so I can vouch for the benefit of meditation :D

[earthboar]

Why do you distance me in point of fact. Because all kinds of prejudices intervene between me and you. First you may think you are of a high heeled class and you may feel you are superior beings, you may be better educated, or be a man of developed western countries and those of the east are bit lowbred and your highbrow-ism will distance me from you.If that is your prejudice, then it is you who has created the distance before seeking to close the divide. Your assumptions remind me of one who carves a chasm into the earth because he has already determined he needs to build a bridge.

[blazeofglory]

I think you are quite good at expressing yourself, blaze, in fact I admire your writing style and expression. It is a difficult idea to express, especially when it is not one that people take seriously. I very much like your simile of the tree. I think of it like that also. Or a single body, but the tree is a good illustration of that. When you consider it, we are both insignificant to the whole, yet also wholly significant to ourselves and to another. I love the dual nature of our thinking; objective and subjective. Aware and also interdependent. I have always thought that we are both utterly insignificant, yet I also have the idea sometimes that a single person can be influential to all; that everything can hinge on one individual. It seems like with understanding the world could be a better place.

I think everything should be different- but then, this thread is only about an ontology that says we are all one. If we see another person, our neighbour perhaps, not as being a separate person, but as a part of ourselves, it makes morality simpler and more automatic. I learned this from a dharma talk I saw online. Then we practice to understand this as well as possible. As you say we are all full of conflict, be those guilt, fears, anxieties, which do not come to light until we meditate. The Buddha taught that the mind should be transformed, and so that is a goal of meditation. It can be difficult to set aside all comparing, but it is very rewarding when we can do so.

I'm just realizing the last two paragraphs were begun with "I think," and perhaps I was about to start the third this way. I hope it's not that much of a distraction. I'm still sort of new (relatively speaking) at discussing things in this way, and I wasn't fully educated in writing, but I'm trying my best. I can see you are a good writer by your paragraphs, and I am trying to write something worth reading as well.

I understand your wariness of vanity and arrogance. I believe we are all responsible for each other, however. In fact, I am not so attached to my own life. I only consider things from the point of view of myself because I am here in this body and mind, and nowhere else. Beyond that I do not care about myself.

I think the devil who also has a saint motive does not need to worry too much about his devilish nature. You need chaos to birthe a dancing star, and by meditation the chaos and energy inside ourselves is transformed into healing energy. Like you, I am involved with meditation and value it very much, as it is essential to my health and well-being. I am interested in Nepal; I do not know a whole lot about it, but I think it must be beautiful there. I am also interested in discussing philosophy with you. There is one idea that our search for enlightenment or reality is like trying to find 'wetness' while we are in a stream. We splash about, not realizing we are already wet. That, as well as the ideas that Buddha-nature is inside us, from the beginning, we need only to awaken it, and the Buddha's teachings about mind-transformation give me hope. There are a lot of traditions I have not yet explored, and I think many are useful. The Shin Buddhism, for instance, and Nembetsu practice. I have a book on that now, and I am wanting to read it again; I've almost finished it at this point. I know a little more about Zen Buddhism, personally. And I was raised Christian, so that gives me a benefit, too, right?

I am very fascinated by your post and have read it a few times. You live in a place that is so different from where I live. I got a book called Freedom in Exile, the Autobiography of the Dalai Lama, written in 1990; I'm hoping it will enlighten me some about the region. I look forward to your reply, and good luck with your meditation.


Nikolai, understanding one another is what is lacking in this world. And if we can understand one another despite our differences, as elemental difference are bound to exist owing to our different backgrounds in terms of education, econommic status, familial or social settigns and upbringings and the like.

We must be at one with one another and this demands of great amounts of understanding.

Nikolai, I too read books written by spiritualists. Osho appealed to me immensely> Khalil Gibran idea shaped the way I think. Sufi poems and Zen stories are my all time favorites. I am open to all. My Hindu upbringings had not obsessed me with Hinduism alone.

To talk much about all I do may give an inkling that I am vainglorious. No all these ideas have sublimed my mind.

Nilkolai, I am not arrogant to say so but this is how I live and I have deep down equanimity with all. I never feel I am superior because I am more educated and hold a better corporate title and socially and economically I am a bit higher in my social stratum.

I do not beleong to any particular sets of faith. I am not a Hindu. Yet I enjoy reading the Mahabharata, the Gita, the Bible. I find them highly appealing and I can feel at home sitting with people of any origin, religiously, racially, geopolitically.

I believe in infinite compassion. I love every thing. I love not only human beings, I love all. It goes to the extent I feel I should not kill even mosquitoes and other harmful creatures. Not that I do not kill them, but I do it sparingly and necessarily and yet I will feel remorseful at the back of my mind. This feeling of compassion expands to the limit that even I do not pluck flowers thinking that it pains them.

I am a strange creature on this planet and mostly I find myself in seclusion. I believe in charity and as you know in Nepal earning wealth is very hard and since I belong to a family I am not able to do it prolifically. Yet i have a strong will that I will do it. Regarding holding properties I subscribe to the idea of Tolstoy.

Nikolai, I wrote too much, because I feel without unfolding oneself or denuding one can not be totally open to discussion. Your writing promoted me to do this.

[NikolaiI]

Blaze, thank you for your words and thoughts, they have been very inspiring to me. I've been thinking about this a lot, and it has shaped my mind these last couple of days. I read your post a few times, and then last night I had thought it had been several days, although it was only one day. I wanted to give you something of like value in return, some of my thoughts worth reading, but the most I can give you is thanks. You have stated it all magnificently.

I am of like mind that if you look at it logically, we are all one. But this is something that has far yet to catch on to mainstream opinion. It has given me some ideas for short stories, so I will try to express it there.

I am interested in Hinduism and the Bhagavad-Gita. I am also very interested in Buddhism. I have recently made it a long term goal to go to India within a year or so, when I have enough money and have learned enough of the language. I want to stay there several months, or more, and travel around and visit monasteries, and find places where I can retreat and meditate.

I've only read a little of the Bhagavad-Gita. I intend to read more, to help learn Hindi. One thing I remember is it mentioning transcendentalists, but I am not sure of course. This is one idea that has influenced me, as I have recently been practicing meditation and wakefulness with a renewed effort. I've renewed desires to practice more, to practice transcendentalism and meditation. But, only because I enjoy doing so. I enjoy the path I am on, in fact it is a great and sometimes only comfort that I have the gift, the ability to choose and practice religious life, and I have been given enough understanding to practice, and grow.

I realize how unfriendly the universe is- I mean, how close we are to the cold of outer space, and how lucky we are to have this island of the earth to live on- and it fills me with the desire for change. It fills me again with compassion for others, for the wish of benefit for all. It makes me think we live on a paradise, if only we can make it so- it is a paradise, at least comparatively.

I haven't read Osho or Kahil Gibran, but I am more familiar with Zen stories and teachings. I'm also a strange creature, Blaze, I think we are very similar.

I am not attached to my own life. I value another's life as much as mine. I do not consider myself to be separate from the world, intuitively, this is logically wrong. I am the world and of the world, so that is why I am not attached to this life and body, because they are not mine. I am conscious now, and that is what leads me to a spiritual or religious life. One day I will not be conscious, but also, one day I was not conscious either. But I am not attached to my life, since it is always changing, and one day it will be gone. It is gone now, and I am always changing. I am always changing, so there is no being, only becoming.

I am conscious, and one day I will no longer be alive. This has prompted me to be not-attached to myself. I am not myself, but everyone and everyone around me; I am not them, but I am the earth and of the earth. It always comes to that, and that is what I am, and language doesn't mean anything to the earth...

I do not see impermanence as being wrong or as a cause for suffering in any way. I do not see existence as a more valuable thing than non-existence. I only know existence, and anyone and everything will know me only if I exist. I cannot know non-existence, since the transition from existence to non-existence is one where I change and lose everything, among other things my ability to know. When I become non-existent, I will no longer be known.

This passage from being conscious to being non-existent is not merely one that happens at the end of our life, it is reflective of what is going on at all times. As Buddhism teaches, "Death and rebirth happen every day, every hour, every minute." I view karmic continuation as cause and effect. I am here due to my past lives, and what happens in the future is a result of now and the past. However, I cannot be 'known', since at every moment I am something new.

I practice non-attachment. This does not mean try to escape life. Avoidance is a form of attachment, and causes suffering since we cannot successfully avoid reality. If we try, we will always return at some point. Non-attachment is only one part of wakefulness and awareness. It is through non-attachment and meditation that I improve my awareness. Instead of aversion, I simple observe life. I do not mind sufferings: they are difficult, but I am on a journey. Some parts of the journey are difficult: they are a struggle. I do not try to avoid sufferings, I observe them and understand them. I step out of the way, or if I cannot step, I wait until I am healed...

I practice so I will better understand compassion...
I practice so I can become more of what I want to become. Which I do not know, but nor is it something that needs to be explained. I am a wanderer..
I focus on the here and now, because I wish to have better focus.

Thank you again, Blaze, for sharing your time and thoughts. I look forward to your reply, as always.

[blazeofglory]

Blaze, thank you for your words and thoughts, they have been very inspiring to me. I've been thinking about this a lot, and it has shaped my mind these last couple of days. I read your post a few times, and then last night I had thought it had been several days, although it was only one day. I wanted to give you something of like value in return, some of my thoughts worth reading, but the most I can give you is thanks. You have stated it all magnificently.

I am of like mind that if you look at it logically, we are all one. But this is something that has far yet to catch on to mainstream opinion. It has given me some ideas for short stories, so I will try to express it there.

I am interested in Hinduism and the Bhagavad-Gita. I am also very interested in Buddhism. I have recently made it a long term goal to go to India within a year or so, when I have enough money and have learned enough of the language. I want to stay there several months, or more, and travel around and visit monasteries, and find places where I can retreat and meditate.

I've only read a little of the Bhagavad-Gita. I intend to read more, to help learn Hindi. One thing I remember is it mentioning transcendentalists, but I am not sure of course. This is one idea that has influenced me, as I have recently been practicing meditation and wakefulness with a renewed effort. I've renewed desires to practice more, to practice transcendentalism and meditation. But, only because I enjoy doing so. I enjoy the path I am on, in fact it is a great and sometimes only comfort that I have the gift, the ability to choose and practice religious life, and I have been given enough understanding to practice, and grow.

I realize how unfriendly the universe is- I mean, how close we are to the cold of outer space, and how lucky we are to have this island of the earth to live on- and it fills me with the desire for change. It fills me again with compassion for others, for the wish of benefit for all. It makes me think we live on a paradise, if only we can make it so- it is a paradise, at least comparatively.

I haven't read Osho or Kahil Gibran, but I am more familiar with Zen stories and teachings. I'm also a strange creature, Blaze, I think we are very similar.

I am not attached to my own life. I value another's life as much as mine. I do not consider myself to be separate from the world, intuitively, this is logically wrong. I am the world and of the world, so that is why I am not attached to this life and body, because they are not mine. I am conscious now, and that is what leads me to a spiritual or religious life. One day I will not be conscious, but also, one day I was not conscious either. But I am not attached to my life, since it is always changing, and one day it will be gone. It is gone now, and I am always changing. I am always changing, so there is no being, only becoming.

I am conscious, and one day I will no longer be alive. This has prompted me to be not-attached to myself. I am not myself, but everyone and everyone around me; I am not them, but I am the earth and of the earth. It always comes to that, and that is what I am, and language doesn't mean anything to the earth...

I do not see impermanence as being wrong or as a cause for suffering in any way. I do not see existence as a more valuable thing than non-existence. I only know existence, and anyone and everything will know me only if I exist. I cannot know non-existence, since the transition from existence to non-existence is one where I change and lose everything, among other things my ability to know. When I become non-existent, I will no longer be known.

This passage from being conscious to being non-existent is not merely one that happens at the end of our life, it is reflective of what is going on at all times. As Buddhism teaches, "Death and rebirth happen every day, every hour, every minute." I view karmic continuation as cause and effect. I am here due to my past lives, and what happens in the future is a result of now and the past. However, I cannot be 'known', since at every moment I am something new.

I practice non-attachment. This does not mean try to escape life. Avoidance is a form of attachment, and causes suffering since we cannot successfully avoid reality. If we try, we will always return at some point. Non-attachment is only one part of wakefulness and awareness. It is through non-attachment and meditation that I improve my awareness. Instead of aversion, I simple observe life. I do not mind sufferings: they are difficult, but I am on a journey. Some parts of the journey are difficult: they are a struggle. I do not try to avoid sufferings, I observe them and understand them. I step out of the way, or if I cannot step, I wait until I am healed...

I practice so I will better understand compassion...
I practice so I can become more of what I want to become. Which I do not know, but nor is it something that needs to be explained. I am a wanderer..
I focus on the here and now, because I wish to have better focus.

Thank you again, Blaze, for sharing your time and thoughts. I look forward to your reply, as always.

Nikolai, I was away for a few days and I could not post anything.
Your post is really unwrapping and I got moved. The most valued thing in your post is you are very honest to yourself and to others. This really absorbed me.

Onething I want to share with you. I know you are an avid reader and seem to have a passion for reading. I too read avidly and in point of fact this is a kind of obsession and I can not do away with.

Reading is , however is not enough if our existence is like a spec that is blown away by the wind of change, that means if any idea sweepingly blow us and there will be elements of us I feel I do not exist there. I may seem rather confusing. All that I mean to say that when we read our own ideas must prevail.

I read things not to believe in them but to expand my horizon of knowledge or the ability to understand things.

I want to tale with you more, sharing more but I am a bit occupied by other things these days.

Nikloai, all I think about life is live it. Let idelogies clash with one another, but lest us be witnessing them. We must be able to witness things while being part of or participants or players of events. I feel like that. I am very much with the world and yet I understand the futility of all actions. I know all else is a kind of delusion and they are fleeting yet I remain with them, doing things or feeling indispensable part of all integral indeed.

[NikolaiI]

Nikolai, I was away for a few days and I could not post anything.
Your post is really unwrapping and I got moved. The most valued thing in your post is you are very honest to yourself and to others. This really absorbed me.

Onething I want to share with you. I know you are an avid reader and seem to have a passion for reading. I too read avidly and in point of fact this is a kind of obsession and I can not do away with.

Reading is , however is not enough if our existence is like a spec that is blown away by the wind of change, that means if any idea sweepingly blow us and there will be elements of us I feel I do not exist there. I may seem rather confusing. All that I mean to say that when we read our own ideas must prevail.

I read things not to believe in them but to expand my horizon of knowledge or the ability to understand things.

I want to tale with you more, sharing more but I am a bit occupied by other things these days.

Nikloai, all I think about life is live it. Let idelogies clash with one another, but lest us be witnessing them. We must be able to witness things while being part of or participants or players of events. I feel like that. I am very much with the world and yet I understand the futility of all actions. I know all else is a kind of delusion and they are fleeting yet I remain with them, doing things or feeling indispensable part of all integral indeed.

Blaze, I am pleased you enjoyed reading my thoughts. :) I'm really glad whenever I hear from you, also. You seem to be very wise, and it's more interesting since you are from so far away, and must live in such a different world, that we still have the same values and view things in a similar way.

I'm glad to talk with you and learn, and so far it has been very beneficial to me. I don't have a lot of friends who value exactly the same things as me, and when I explain my ideas to them it doesn't resonate. I'm interested in learning from you because it will add depth to my understanding, and teach me about myself and the world.

I don't advocate giving up thought, ever. Knowledge can be very useful if I keep an open mind when I'm learning. Writing can sometimes be clarifying to the writer, to see their ideas written down, but also it can sometimes be harmful to the objectivity of what is written; a writer can have a certain idea that they wish to promote, and then everything else is only an appearance of having given it critical thought.

I agree with what you say about ideologies. And about ideas; I just want to share ideas and grow. Whenever you have time, I am interested in what you have to say. Take care.

[blazeofglory]

Blaze, I am pleased you enjoyed reading my thoughts. :) I'm really glad whenever I hear from you, also. You seem to be very wise, and it's more interesting since you are from so far away, and must live in such a different world, that we still have the same values and view things in a similar way.

I'm glad to talk with you and learn, and so far it has been very beneficial to me. I don't have a lot of friends who value exactly the same things as me, and when I explain my ideas to them it doesn't resonate. I'm interested in learning from you because it will add depth to my understanding, and teach me about myself and the world.

I don't advocate giving up thought, ever. Knowledge can be very useful if I keep an open mind when I'm learning. Writing can sometimes be clarifying to the writer, to see their ideas written down, but also it can sometimes be harmful to the objectivity of what is written; a writer can have a certain idea that they wish to promote, and then everything else is only an appearance of having given it critical thought.

I agree with what you say about ideologies. And about ideas; I just want to share ideas and grow. Whenever you have time, I am interested in what you have to say. Take care.

Nikolai, we are indeed far away. Yet I am sure that this distance between you and me, really furthers our intimacy. Because we share ideas without preoccupation of who you are and who I am. In fact presupposition or foreknowledge of who we are cripples our communication.

Nikolai, I will sign up again, for I have things galore to share with you. This communication is really spontaneous.

[NikolaiI]

I would be interested to know what Virgil and others think about our discussion of wisdom. They are silent, but I would urge them to join in. Is not anyone able and at liberty to add their input and contribute? What we are saying is that people are connected in deeper ways than they are separated. We are indeed part of one organism. By our ability to think, we are able to place ourselves outside of ourselves, and view ourselves objectively. It is thus we come to the conclusion we are all one. I am here, sitting here meditating, and I am joined to others; I see what others would see, the same colours, lights and sensations, and by these I am joined.

I am discussing the subject of 'wisdom', I am saying this is a wisdom, and describing it. I am not saying I am wise, however, or claiming anything of any kind. I am describing what I believe to be wisdom, yet I don't mean to be undermining it by talking about what venerable teachers teach as I have not achieved what they have achieved. Yet I am free to do so, and I still wish others would join, because they are also free to do so and it would contribute to hear their ideas.

I wish I could describe it better to you, but words really fail at it. I would point you towards Zen, though, if you're interested.

[blazeofglory]

I would be interested to know what Virgil and others think about our discussion of wisdom. They are silent, but I would urge them to join in. Is not anyone able and at liberty to add their input and contribute? What we are saying is that people are connected in deeper ways than they are separated. We are indeed part of one organism. By our ability to think, we are able to place ourselves outside of ourselves, and view ourselves objectively. It is thus we come to the conclusion we are all one. I am here, sitting here meditating, and I am joined to others; I see what others would see, the same colors, lights and sensations, and by these I am joined.

I am discussing the subject of 'wisdom', I am saying this is a wisdom, and describing it. I am not saying I am wise, however, or claiming anything of any kind. I am describing what I believe to be wisdom, yet I don't mean to be undermining it by talking about what venerable teachers teach as I have not achieved what they have achieved. Yet I am free to do so, and I still wish others would join, because they are also free to do so and it would contribute to hear their ideas.

I wish I could describe it better to you, but words really fail at it. I would point you towards Zen, though, if you're interested.

Nikolai, if we can feel all permeate and all are wired to one another we will be really wise. This feeling of oneness in our diversity and difference, a thread that strings all together like a garland with so many flowers of different colors threaded by the same cord.

Zen is my favorite. In fact what I am now, the idea I hold on to, and the kind of life I want to live or living a little bit, is shaped in part by Zen, Sufism and Taoism, They are springs of inspiration and from them I learn a lot.

I learn from all. Everyone, even everybeing can teach us something if we have
an open mind and can live without discriminatory mindset.

Not that we have to think about an utopian world where idealism prevails upon us. No a world with lots of struggles for existence, friction, strains. I take all these forces positively. I do not consider anyone my enemy. In fact that is what believe in but I do not mean I can feel equanimity but towards that I love to go.

[NikolaiI]

I was thinking about the equanimity thing ever since you mentioned it a few posts ago. For me it has to do with non-attachment and the direction I am coming from is the philosophy of aikido, of non-conflict. I had been a little familiar with Buddhist concepts when I began aikido, and I had a wonderful teacher who would talk about non-conflict and non-attachment. During demonstrations, he would say "you see, I am not attached to anything, and I am relaxed, and this is the way of aikido. I am untouchable."

For me it has to do with that, and of course the Nietzsche quote about the world being forces, not increasing or decreasing, etc., etc., comes to mind: the world is full of forces, and we are very small in it, yet as we understand the forces that direct us, then we can have an effect on our destiny. The deep equanimity you described is what Peck describes as a 'mystical union with the world.' He says it is the ideal goal of growth, but it is something we do after we have become an adult. As we are independent and have friendships and lovers, we give and receive love, every time lowering our ego boundaries and extending ourselves into the lives of others. He says that if one tries to do this before experiencing adolescence and adulthood, it results in schizophrenia, I remember, just as a brief note. I think it's interesting...and of course it could be different: I am a utopian, or whatever the word is, idealist, you know...I am always moved by the words of Dostoyevsky: if only everyone wanted it, it could be arranged at once. This has always made sense to me, and even as a child I was aware of the concept. And as the Buddha said, compassion is our guiding star.

Since we've talked I've still been reading and meditating, experiencing good results from meditation. About equanimity, again I think it is closely linked to religious (or spiritual) practice, and I also think the fundamental question is "is the world a safe place, a warm and nurturing place, or is it cold and hostile?" Which arouses conflicts in us..

I haven't studied Taoism, and I have no idea what Sufism is, but I'll keep them in mind..

As for permeation...I remember reading somewhat recently about that...maybe you could say more..you mentioned it earlier and I have read about it elsewhere, I think in Alan Watts; expanding and permeation of energy. I dunno.

Oh, and further about equanimity and non-conflict: everything is in transition and changing, and conflicts are impermanent. So if we outlast them, or just dodge them..

[blazeofglory]

I was thinking about the equanimity thing ever since you mentioned it a few posts ago. For me it has to do with non-attachment and the direction I am coming from is the philosophy of aikido, of non-conflict. I had been a little familiar with Buddhist concepts when I began aikido, and I had a wonderful teacher who would talk about non-conflict and non-attachment. During demonstrations, he would say "you see, I am not attached to anything, and I am relaxed, and this is the way of aikido. I am untouchable."

For me it has to do with that, and of course the Nietzsche quote about the world being forces, not increasing or decreasing, etc., etc., comes to mind: the world is full of forces, and we are very small in it, yet as we understand the forces that direct us, then we can have an effect on our destiny. The deep equanimity you described is what Peck describes as a 'mystical union with the world.' He says it is the ideal goal of growth, but it is something we do after we have become an adult. As we are independent and have friendships and lovers, we give and receive love, every time lowering our ego boundaries and extending ourselves into the lives of others. He says that if one tries to do this before experiencing adolescence and adulthood, it results in schizophrenia, I remember, just as a brief note. I think it's interesting...and of course it could be different: I am a utopian, or whatever the word is, idealist, you know...I am always moved by the words of Dostoyevsky: if only everyone wanted it, it could be arranged at once. This has always made sense to me, and even as a child I was aware of the concept. And as the Buddha said, compassion is our guiding star.

Since we've talked I've still been reading and meditating, experiencing good results from meditation. About equanimity, again I think it is closely linked to religious (or spiritual) practice, and I also think the fundamental question is "is the world a safe place, a warm and nurturing place, or is it cold and hostile?" Which arouses conflicts in us..

I haven't studied Taoism, and I have no idea what Sufism is, but I'll keep them in mind..

As for permeation...I remember reading somewhat recently about that...maybe you could say more..you mentioned it earlier and I have read about it elsewhere, I think in Alan Watts; expanding and permeation of energy. I dunno.

Oh, and further about equanimity and non-conflict: everything is in transition and changing, and conflicts are impermanent. So if we outlast them, or just dodge them..

Nikolai, speaking of equanimity, all I want to say is that we are all kinda living in a world with differences, and we struggle. What for after all? We struggle for reserving a little space for ourselves.
Now we do not struggle for fulfilling primitive or elemental needs. We struggle , now in fact for fulling what our egos demand. Let us unload our egos, arrogance for a while and revisit our demands, all we fight for in point of fact are futilities.

We are in fact hemmed in tugs of war in a dark world, and all we get ultimately is nothing and we will have to be at one with void.

Nilkloai, some times I keep a little time to myself, completely my private time and I do not let any one transgresses it. All I do is walk alone and measure distances going afield. Waling alone quietly an meditatively has advantages on two planes: one, we can keep our bodies fit and, two, we can think deeply and navigate inwardly. I do it on every weekend. Streams of thought pass through me. I see that fighting for something is futile.

I do not mean I have triumphed over this. No. I am envious and live with short tempers. But all that I have overcome is prolonged enmity with anybody. Deep down I feel I have no enemies. And I am trying my best through meditations, by doing something good for others, and showing a little kindness to all beings on this planet.

How far can I go I do not know. But I am sure I will not return from it at any rate.

[NikolaiI]

Where were we talking about the Dalai Lama saying that religious practice is inseparable from daily life? I thought it was this thread, but I guess not...

Anyway you say this is a dark world, but what does that mean? There are both day and night, so why would you say it is a dark world? To me it is a dark and light world. Sometimes the night hours are long, and it seems like forever for day to come, and sometimes day passes all too quickly, but we do have both, and they both come again and again.

I love to be alone, too. It's vital to me to have time to meditate and practice. I wish I had more time for it.

I wish you good luck with everything you are trying to overcome, and peace...

[blazeofglory]

Where were we talking about the Dalai Lama saying that religious practice is inseparable from daily life? I thought it was this thread, but I guess not...

Anyway you say this is a dark world, but what does that mean? There are both day and night, so why would you say it is a dark world? To me it is a dark and light world. Sometimes the night hours are long, and it seems like forever for day to come, and sometimes day passes all too quickly, but we do have both, and they both come again and again.

I love to be alone, too. It's vital to me to have time to meditate and practice. I wish I had more time for it.

I wish you good luck with everything you are trying to overcome, and peace...


Nikolai, by saying we are in a dark world I do not did not mean at all that it is literally a dark world, not at all literally. All I mean to say is symbolically for we are in perpetual struggles for existence, and to exist here we have to qualify and we have to struggle. Struggle presupposes conflict, and when we are hemmed in conflict voilence is bound to erupt.

We have to understand the fact that out of this violence we must rise and realize who wre. The futility of struggle. We must rid ourself of baser instincts, and rise to our higher states. A higher state is divinity, or the realization that everyone is equal, no matter where one is rooted in. All are the same children of God, if there is any entity called God. I do know whether or not He exists.

Man has to ascend higher and higher from his baser state. Man has to realize his unity, and the fact every one permeates every other in this cosmic bowel.

The planet earth is bountiful. We have enough space to live. Our resources are not properly utilized.

Why too many people have to die of hunger, while the few luxuriate in prosperities. While the few waste food materials, keep earth un-tilled, or occupies space unnecessarily.

I have a big plum tree in my garden. Everyday a swarm of small school boys used to storm in and picked up them. I became enraged at their very act, stealing the plums from my garden.

I shooed the children away and I picked up all the plums and stored them in a room. I ate them gluttonously. It sickened me. I did not feel well. I picked up the fruits only out of greed alone. I did not want to let street boys storm in and pick them up and eat. The plums I have picked up were more than we needed and they would rot and perish if I keep longer and I ate more than necessary. I distributed a few plums to my neighbors too, yet the quantity I had stored was too high for us to consume.

Yes I became sick eating too much and the poor street boys were deprived of them.

This is exactly happening in the world. There is conflict, violence and terrorism . The one and only reason is our lack of understanding one another.

How beautiful this planet will be if we are really considerate and understand all of us are one organically and must share everything we have.

Only if we feel that we are in a big extended family in this world, forgetting petty differences.

[NikolaiI]

It sounds like you got a lesson about eating too many plums. :P When I was in Canada I lived and worked for a man who had moved onto an old abandoned farmhouse. There was a lot of land, and this was in Vancouver Island so it was incredibly gorgeous; green, pure green and pure rivers. It was a very small farm, and probably farm is not the right word for it, but there were sheds and lots of land, and among other things a plum tree that I picked for him one time. Anyway yeah, don't eat too many. :)

Your story reminds me of one I read in a book on Shin Buddhism. The author was talking about Myokonin, peasants who were not educated or literate but were spiritually enlightened because they lived simple lives and were compassionate. Anyway one man saw some neighbourhood kids taking fruit from a tree in his yard, and while they were up there he put up a ladder under them so they wouldn't be hurt. He wasn't concerned with what they were stealing but he was concerned with their safety. I don't remember exactly what happened then.


Man has to ascend higher and higher from his baser state. Man has to realize his unity, and the fact every one permeates every other in this cosmic bowel.

This is the premise at least of Zarathustra in the overman. "Man is something to be overcome. There is a going under, and then there will be an overman. Man is a bridge between beast and overman..." Not a direct quote, but the basic idea...other verses tell of what he thinks an overman should be. In one early verse Zarathustra says "A god dances through me." A beautiful verse. Zarathustra says: "Once the greatest sin was to sin against God, but now God is dead and the greatest sin is to sin against the Earth." I don't remember exactly what else, but it's a good sentiment.

You mention Dostoyevsky every now and then. Are you familiar with "The Dream of a Ridiculous Man"? It is one of my favourites. It is about the dream of a man who was about to commit suicide, who falls asleep instead of committing the act. He dreams he shoots himself, dies and is taken away into outer space by a supernatural being of some kind. He then visits an Earth-planet paradise, one he describes as being like the Greek islands. You should definitely read it if you haven't already. The last words from the story have always inspired me: if only everyone wants it, it can be arranged at once.


We have to understand the fact that out of this violence we must rise and realize who wre. The futility of struggle. We must rid ourself of baser instincts, and rise to our higher states. A higher state is divinity, or the realization that everyone is equal, no matter where one is rooted in. All are the same children of God, if there is any entity called God. I do know whether or not He exists.

I don't know what we are, but I think it is something like pure thought. Bhagavad-Gita says we are spirit-soul, not the body. I think this is right, although I don't really believe in spirit-soul. It's as good a term as anything else, though. I think we just...are. Entity is the best word for it I suppose. What say you?

Another thing Bhagavad-Gita says which I agree with is that we cannot really own anything. It says everything belongs to Krishna. I mean, regardless of Krishna, why do we think we own things? Aren't we just people, and then we go and say "I own this land," or "I own this car, house, and food,"...what of it? Someone else might come along and say the same thing. That's a whole other topic, though...anyway, you should share your plums, blaze! I guess you do, now, though. Anyway, talk to you later and have a good night/day.

Love,
Nikolai

[blazeofglory]

It sounds like you got a lesson about eating too many plums. :P When I was in Canada I lived and worked for a man who had moved onto an old abandoned farmhouse. There was a lot of land, and this was in Vancouver Island so it was incredibly gorgeous; green, pure green and pure rivers. It was a very small farm, and probably farm is not the right word for it, but there were sheds and lots of land, and among other things a plum tree that I picked for him one time. Anyway yeah, don't eat too many. :)

Your story reminds me of one I read in a book on Shin Buddhism. The author was talking about Myokonin, peasants who were not educated or literate but were spiritually enlightened because they lived simple lives and were compassionate. Anyway one man saw some neighbourhood kids taking fruit from a tree in his yard, and while they were up there he put up a ladder under them so they wouldn't be hurt. He wasn't concerned with what they were stealing but he was concerned with their safety. I don't remember exactly what happened then.



This is the premise at least of Zarathustra in the overman. "Man is something to be overcome. There is a going under, and then there will be an overman. Man is a bridge between beast and overman..." Not a direct quote, but the basic idea...other verses tell of what he thinks an overman should be. In one early verse Zarathustra says "A god dances through me." A beautiful verse. Zarathustra says: "Once the greatest sin was to sin against God, but now God is dead and the greatest sin is to sin against the Earth." I don't remember exactly what else, but it's a good sentiment.

You mention Dostoyevsky every now and then. Are you familiar with "The Dream of a Ridiculous Man"? It is one of my favourites. It is about the dream of a man who was about to commit suicide, who falls asleep instead of committing the act. He dreams he shoots himself, dies and is taken away into outer space by a supernatural being of some kind. He then visits an Earth-planet paradise, one he describes as being like the Greek islands. You should definitely read it if you haven't already. The last words from the story have always inspired me: if only everyone wants it, it can be arranged at once.



I don't know what we are, but I think it is something like pure thought. Bhagavad-Gita says we are spirit-soul, not the body. I think this is right, although I don't really believe in spirit-soul. It's as good a term as anything else, though. I think we just...are. Entity is the best word for it I suppose. What say you?

Another thing Bhagavad-Gita says which I agree with is that we cannot really own anything. It says everything belongs to Krishna. I mean, regardless of Krishna, why do we think we own things? Aren't we just people, and then we go and say "I own this land," or "I own this car, house, and food,"...what of it? Someone else might come along and say the same thing. That's a whole other topic, though...anyway, you should share your plums, blaze! I guess you do, now, though. Anyway, talk to you later and have a good night/day.

Love,
Nikolai

Nikloai, I have recently read Dostoevsky's the Dream of a ridiculous man and I too like this story very much and particularly the following lines in the story towards the end is really appealing:

The consciousness of life is higher than life, the knowledge of the laws of happiness is higher than happiness - that is what one must contend against. And I shall. If only everyone wants it, it can be arranged at once.


The account of plums is nothing if e take literally and but I have something to share, th kernal of truth. In life we must start with smaller things. We must start an enterprise of spirituality with a small project and if we project ourselves in a big way, we may be thwarted away in the middle.

What I did the plums I have stored, a basketful of them? I distributed them to the needy people, small kids. This is not a thing to be proud of. No. But I have started conditioning myself, and now I do not hold too many clothes for me and I donated them.
I like to sublimate myself and be kind to all and never fight with anybody. Because I feel he or she I fight with is also part of me, and to be generous to them is to be generous to myslef.

Such ideas occur to me. I do not know why. Maybe it is all programming. My parents may have stuffed me with that software or that package, or my friends or books.

I do not care who even have programmed my thought processes I feel it is a thing to glory in.

Nikolai, I am speaking entirely about my private experiences. For you are also part of me. Or you are me.

[NikolaiI]

I had to search for this thread, because I wondered who let it die; and it was me!

It's a good thing that you did, and it's still humourous- your tale of how you stuffed yourself with plums and got sick! Something to laugh about, somewhat harmless but still selfish thing that you wouldn't do now...

It is programming, but you can program yourself, like you say. You can do practices that will put you in a place so that everything falls away and you can be at peace. These practices are very difficult if you're not used to them, but if you walk on the path, you'll find your thinking changed. The highest way asks nothing hard, but detests any picking or choosing. It's not hard, but if we resist it we'll never find peace. But the practice is so powerful that it will transform you. So wonderful.

Back to the topic; it's a central one to Zen Peacemaking. If we see others as we see ourselves, then we'll help them as automatically as we should ourselves, as we should do. The theory behind this is that ontologically it's the correct way to view it. Then, we do practice so that we can align ourselves with what's ontologically true.

What's your philosophy/ontology now? It's been a little while.

Peace!!!
Alex

[Midas]

I sat a few moments after skimming through the many posts in this thread, but all from the same two posters. Maybe a couple of posts I did more than skim attempting to locate the main filling in this many layered cake.

I said to myself, yes, then no, then yes and then..... In the end, it was too tempting. Too tempting? Yes, I just had to break up what was becoming what could appear to we 'not so enlightened', a mutual admiration thread.

Now, I am sure that was not the intent, it was just that two like minds got carried away in their enthusiasm to share their, at least to them, here, singular view of life.

Nothing wrong in that, except that too much of anything, all at once - like too many chocolates, or cream cakes (I love them both) can soon lead to a desire to throw up.

With only good thoughts for these two dear people, I decided I would step in and, perhaps for only the length of this post, put the cream cakes back in the fridge and close the lid on the chocolates, knowing full well I could soon suffer the slings and arrows of outraged posters, or simply bring the wrath of God upon my head

Having said that. I would like to make, hopefully, what may be seen as a relevant thought provoked by the 'filling' of the thread.

Keeping this to the cake analogy introduced in my first sentence. Imagine a big fruit and nut cake. It is one cake made of many ingredients. Lets cut it into many small slices. Each slice is from the same cake, but is each slice the same? Does it have to be the same?

The 'same' I was taught at primary school in England means identical in every respect. But we know the word is often misused. And I was often corrected until it sunk in. So it would be easy to say to someone who was deliberating which slice to take - it's all the same.

We have the cake in many slices. Some slices may have a little more fruit
than another, or nuts than another, even if it were possible to slice each piece the exact size. (Gosh, I'm making myself hungry and fighting a trip to the fridge). Therefore, each slice would not be the same as the other.

All that just to say are we not all parts of the whole? Not really, I just felt obliged to break up what could become - schmaltz. Which, as a consequence, to others could lose its intent.

One is not the same as the other. One slice of the cake is not the other. But there is a relationship.

The difference in life, and the cake, to me, and where the analogy strays is that in life, the whole is far greater than the sum of its parts.

I have not presented this as an answer, I do not know the answer. Neither does anyone alive on earth. It's just a thought to ponder.

[NikolaiI]

Your input and insight is very welcome! I respect you a lot and I'm really glad you answered.

I hope you don't think I'm arrogant if I respond, and make no other mention that I don't know the answer. Having said this, I'll give a try to erect a post and counter-response to your response.

First of all, yes, we are different. One thing Blaze said at the beginning of this thread was that "the divisions of class, race, wealth, location are all illusions." As though they're something that keep us separate; as though us being separate is something we have to remedy, as we all have to be close to each other. -That is, that's not exactly what he said, and that's not what he elaborated it into, but that's one way of going with it.
-I don't mean this.
-And it's not precisely clear what is meant when it is said, "We are all one." I mention this because in this debate- which is important, because the ontology I'm wishing to define, which is perhaps oversimply/best defined by those words, "we are all one," but is a little more subtle and complex- if any progress is to be made, that original statement must be clearly understood by everyone if it is to be discussed. Now, setting that aside for a moment,

-We are all separate. We are each unique. I see the personality as a sort of seed, among other seeds. This is just a metaphor, and any can be used. The personality, as metaphorically seen as a seed, is what makes a character, apart from the skills that one possesses. The personality is always in flux, and it's always changing. I say all these things simply for the purpose of saying them; this is what I view this part of reality as, and I mean to make a connected point which is where I'm going.

What I am trying to do, here, is get at the best ontology possible. What I mean by ontology is first principles. I'm not trying to say that I'm not an "entity," because there definitely is something that is "me". I want to know whether that's an ego, or something separate from my ego. Egos are learned and conditioned. They're always changing. But a rock or a tree doesn't really have an ego, so I ask myself, what is this? Ego? Personality? Person?

Most of the common knowledge is mostly accurate. Ego is a reasonable term, and what we know and understand about personality is acceptable. However, it's still something metaphorical or metaphysical. It's not something we can look at or read. When I talk to the psychologist, he may observe me and understand me to some limit, but why would I trust his insight over mine? What gives me the idea that he understands the monstrous, metaphysical concept of ego and self better than me? I don't turn away from psychology, I love psychology- it's intimately connected with philosophy and ontology- but I trust my own knowledge, too. That's why I think of it as a metaphorical seed. When I examine my own ego I don't just sit there at the seed metaphor, though. But that's another matter.

And actually...I cannot bring this to a close. I cannot say logically exactly why it's true.

I definitely don't mean by any standard that we're all the same. That's nonsensical and I never thought that.

But, if you are interested, here is a wonderful text on a similar subject, that of Buddhist ontology. It never says "we are all one" though.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/inada4.htm

okay...talk to you soon, Midas...

[Midas]

Keep it up Nicholai, you have a lively imagination - a great plus, and an enquiring mind. Who would I be to stifle it, or even to attempt such.

Let imagination flourish for it is imagination that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom (or does it? Or is is it that they merely limit their imagination to the basic area of their own survival. Now that's another area for discussion)

[NikolaiI]

Thanks, Midas.

I really meant it about that article. It's one of the best I've ever read.

[Midas]

Nicholai, I have spent a lot of time in the Orient, and was on the faculty of the 'Liberal Arts' department of the top university in Taiwan. While there, besides my studies in philosophy and psychology, at London University, I looked into the teachings of various religions.

I studied, though not in depth, as this was not my intent, nor I felt for me necessary, both Taoism and Buddhism neither of which are really religions but more philosophies.

What I look for is the thread that runs between them all, and there is one.

They all make sound sense, if one keeps to the common thread so I have no argument.

Thanks, Midas

[blazeofglory]

In fact I feel I am totally wired to everything around, and I do not feel I am different from a piece of rock or a plant. The earth is home to me and to the rock and plant also in the same way. Does not the plant feel the sensation when rays of the sun fall upon its leaves early in the morning. Suppose there is a very hot day and you feel thirsty, and doe not the plant in your vase does not feel thirsty too.

I therefore often feel that when I pluck a flower I am hurting it. I do not know why I feel like that.

There are oestensible disticntions and in point of fact when you go underneath severl veneers you are not different from the rest of beings and non beings.

I cannot express what I really want to owing to my poor English, yet I want to pointedly express that we all in this uiverse are integrally one entitiy, organically indivisible. If I hurt you, I will hurt myslef indirectly, as antatomically or organically we are one cosmic body, and I beleive If i hurt you sooner or later I will have to undergo the pain.

We have studied ecology in science. In an ecosystem every creature is reliant on another creature and on the rest of the chain, and if one of the elements is withdrawn from the system all will undergo a kind of chain effects.

I study spirituality to sublimate my mind so that I can feel you. This is what the Buddha says Nirvana.
Oh! I aplogize to say something agaist the rule, and I will not commit this mistake again.

Indeed I like to permeate the universal spirit, and to feel and share the feeling of the rest, the universal spirit

I am elated to discuss the issue once again with all you on the forum.

[Midas]

Blazeofglory

When you think that once, in the beginning, this earth was a ball of fire. There was no life, no water, all was fused together in the intense heat.

Everything that is here today comes from that molten mass (which incidentally, came from another molten mass out in the universe.)

So, everything is related. Our bodies, mostly water (80%?) with the rest all chemicals that can be found in the earth.

For those, like me, who do not accept we all came from one man, and one woman (which would also mean we came as a result of incest), then life must have sprung from the reactions of certain chemicals, water, and heat at a given moment in time. But this life would have been some micro-organism in the early stage.

But whatever one believes, it either was the result of one event, in one spot, or a number happening around the same time.

Darwin's theory of natural selection, and adaptation, seems feasible as we can see evidence today in cultivated growth and mutation, and other areas We can also condition animals to change their behaviour.

However, although I am clued in on basics, I am not so knowledgeable in th area of science, and biology, so won't go into it further.

The point I am making is that it is understandable, and I believe right, to feel a relationship to the animate, and inanimate around us, and also that which we can't see as in the area of metaphysics, where I am clued well in.

Having said that, we should also take it as natural and no great revelation that upsets our balance, or put us out of touch with all that is necessary for our survival within our own sphere of existence. To put it bluntly we must keep our feet firmly on the ground, and our mind alert.

Hope you are following the drift.

It's all a question of balance, and going with the flow. It is good to feel at one
with everything around us but to take it as natural and not something extraordinary without at the same time taking it for granted.

I will often remind myself when I go to the tap to draw water how wonderful it is that I don't have to walk miles to some communal water hole just to stop me taking it for granted. However, I don't have the urge to start waxing lyrical about it, and contemplate writing an 'ode to a house water tap.'

The key to life surely is balance. In ourselves, that means what we eat (put in our mouth) and what we put in our mind. Dark cannot exist where there is light, and hate cannot exist where there is love. And, if we can't always give love, we can give respect.

[crazefest456]

I don't know what to say, blaze, this thread is phenomenal! I love your take on our self/ego/spirit being the other selves/egoes/spirits in a different level...I feel like the separation of identities fosters too much of "if this is, then that isn't" within people, causing conflicts and misunderstandings that aren't behaviorally sound (natural attraction and repulsion towards situations).
I think that "mainstream" religions also emphasize the importance of feeling one with another because this sort of attitude inculcates selflessness which, eventually equates to the Good that humanity desperately needs right now.

For some reason though, I feel that man needs conflict within himself once in a while. I don't know if utopia is healthy for the society, because it may induce restrictions to people who aren't mature or ready enough to accept this thought. Divisions are sometimes helpful in finding oneself, and one's role in the world. It's sort of a tool for enlightenment that cannot be acquired merely from internal discourse. Experimental interactions with the environment is a good way to learn, so that we can understand and relate to more and more "individuals".

[zealous_guy]

Blaze,
I have continued your pursue in the post SLEEPLESS IN SLEEP in the same board "Philosophical Literature"

[jon1jt]

true enough that the "gaps" create differences, which you suppose are 'barriers' to the attainment of primordial experience. i don't think so, nor do i suspect that even the masters of eastern philosophy denied that they were living in a world of tables and chairs. (just try to walk off a mountain, see what happens to you!) the fact is, we come out of a past and move toward. in that sense we exist in a world---that's the holistic experience of being in the world. we are also ontological. that is, we ask questions about being. this structure of consciousness is ITSELF universalizing in the sense it mitigates subjectivity. that's as good as it gets, my brother. ;)

division is not an illusion, per se, so your OP is not, in my mind, entirely wrong philosophically. such thinking necessitates a slight adjustment of the lens of being and the world. the rest is just a nice idea.

[blazeofglory]

Jon 1 jt

I do not find your ideas conflicting, and I do not think in point of fact anyone seek for disharmony. For you are part of me and disagreeing means not accepting part of my feelings and thiinkings. No matter how much it is forctional. For without you this reply could not be born at all. This validates again that you are part of me, and your ideas no matter how much you might have stoof in opposition also constitute what I think and feel. Your ideas penetrated into me and now they run in my veins and capillaries. Tell me how on earth you do not share of or partake of me and I of you?

Who seek disharmony and inchohesion in this world after all? Terrorists? No, Fundamentalists and fanatics? I do not think they are sinners. There are divertions and divertions, and it happens in in the world. All of us have a little bit diverted, and deviated from the path,and indeed we go off the route in the ordinary course of living.

Indeed we all make deviations and the difference between those so called, criminals and us are a matter of degrees only. In exstence struggle is inevitable and here all are in perpetual struggle and look at it from this perspective, no body is a sinner.

That is why do not make a ground for divison, or disintegration or separation. Even if somebody is committing sin he is part of us, part of our body, of our cosmic body, and if something fails in the system something is bound to happen.

My friend, we should not culivate a mind that kind of retaliates. Friend, you know in the end all of us religious or irreligious, sared and profane will come to the same end and meet at a point all our earthy propensities or worldliness evaporates.

I may be vague indeed. The point is all of us are one indivisbly. We are naturally, cosmically and organically undivided. Th eproblem is one of feeling.

Scientifically researched and known ideas are that we are chained to one another and the very ecosystem approves of this notion. Are they not one system. We should see phenomena in whole and in integrity.

That we are wired or conncted or integrated is evident from the fact that we breahthe the same air, we drink the same water and indeed we share the sam e earth.

Do not you agree once thinking along these lines that I am you and you are me?
Why should you feel different? Because you are poor and I am rich or vice versa. You are a teacher and I am student. But see every rich man is poor at heart and a poor man is not necessarily poor at heart. By the same token, indeed every teacher is a student and every student is a techer.

How do you say, taking theese maixms into account, both the sacred and th e prophane do not share parts in the making of the world. Indeed innately all us partake of what this cosmos and its attributes are.

Let us dig into this idea of universality so that we will get integrated to feel we are all one and division is just illusion.