going to church

[stella]

hey all,
I know that in the bible it's written that we should go to mass & do some group praying but ( & am not proud to say it) i haven't been to any church in the last 2 years of my life, not because i have problems with God but rather with the people who speak in his name those who preach about jesus being poor and have millions in their bank accounts & those who do it as if they have to repeating the same words.......
am not saying that all of them are like that....
so i guess my question would be is it ok not to go to church for this reason?

[weepingforloman]

Hypocrisy in the church occurs constantly. We cannot allow ourselves to be turned off by this. Remember that people are flawed, in the church or out of it, and that no one but Christ Himself can claim to represent the entire Church. You also don't literally HAVE to go to church, but it is recommended. Maybe you should try finding a different church if you are so disappointed with the one(s) you have been to.

[kitten]

i stopped going to church many years ago because i couldn't reconcile myself to the hypocrisy, either. then i saw a sign outside of a church that said something like "you don't go to church to find god, you go to church to share god". i took that to mean go to church, and take away from it that which benefits you spiritually. getting caught up in others "stuff" isn't what we are all there for.

i have also found that at times, i have felt closer to god when we are talking one on one than i have when i am in a group, in church.

[Redzeppelin]

All churches are flawed because they have an inherent flaw built into them: they're made up of human beings. A casual reading of the NT reveals many times where Paul, or Peter, or James, or John dealt with problems within the church in terms of members who were sinning, divisive and out-of-alignment with God's purposes; nonetheless, each validated the value of the "body" of Christ and advocated the necessity of belonging to that body. Part of the reason church attendance is good is that it allows one to contribute to a larger group of believers: we don't go to church to "get fed" - we go to "feed" others. If we're going to dismiss the validity of an institution because it contains "bad apples," well which institution survives that kind of standard?

If you are a Christian, then then wouldn't it make sense to consider that Satan's greatest desire would be to destroy the church from the inside out? The NT never said that churches would not suffer the same problems with internal sin that we face on an individual level.

[Bakiryu]

I've never been to church and i do not intend to go. I know god is with me and all around me and i do not need to go inside a place that claims to be GOD'S HOME. EVERYWHERE I GO GOD IS WITH ME.

[Redzeppelin]

I've never been to church and i do not intend to go. I know god is with me and all around me and i do not need to go inside a place that claims to be GOD'S HOME. EVERYWHERE I GO GOD IS WITH ME.

That is true; but the God you claim to believe in also made it clear in the NT that participation in the body of Christ is one of the ways you demonstrate your love of God because the body of Christ exists to minister to others. Since Christianity is very much about serving others, neglecting church membership cuts one off from at least one important avenue of service.

[NikolaiI]

No, I think it's okay not to go to church. Bakiryu put it well, and the world can teach a lot. In fact, you could live on the street under a bridge as a disciple of Jesus, or Zen; there have been such people.

In my experience, churches have been full of good people, as well as, actually I sort of think everyone is good; but at my church I have more than one healthy, spiritually rewarding relationship, and actually it is a small enough church so that I have spent a lot of one on one time with the pastor.

[bazarov]

Hypocrisy is not in church and priests, it's in people who visit church and pretend to be good Christians.
You can't live under the bridge as a disciple; in that way you are creating your own religion which in similar to Christianity but it's not and you're clearly acting against 3rd commandment.

[Aiculík]

hey all,
I know that in the bible it's written that we should go to mass & do some group praying but ( & am not proud to say it) i haven't been to any church in the last 2 years of my life, not because i have problems with God but rather with the people who speak in his name those who preach about jesus being poor and have millions in their bank accounts & those who do it as if they have to repeating the same words.......
am not saying that all of them are like that....
so i guess my question would be is it ok not to go to church for this reason?

I'm not sure - are you saying that you're not going to the church because you think that other people there are not good Christians, that they are just hypocrites?

In C. S. Lewis' Screwtape Letters, the devil, Screwtape, says this about going to church (bold is mine):


I have been writing hitherto on the assumption that the people in the next pew afford no rational ground for disappointment. Of course if they do—if the patient knows that the woman with the absurd hat is a fanatical bridge-player or the man with squeaky boots a miser and an extortioner—then your task is so much the easier. All you then have to do is to keep out of his mind the question “If I, being what I am, can consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?” You may ask whether it is possible to keep such an obvious thought from occurring even to a human mind. It is, Wormwood, it is! Handle him properly and it simply won’t come into his head.

[stella]

All churches are flawed because they have an inherent flaw built into them: they're made up of human beings. A casual reading of the NT reveals many times where Paul, or Peter, or James, or John dealt with problems within the church in terms of members who were sinning, divisive and out-of-alignment with God's purposes; nonetheless, each validated the value of the "body" of Christ and advocated the necessity of belonging to that body. Part of the reason church attendance is good is that it allows one to contribute to a larger group of believers: we don't go to church to "get fed" - we go to "feed" others. If we're going to dismiss the validity of an institution because it contains "bad apples," well which institution survives that kind of standard?

If you are a Christian, then then wouldn't it make sense to consider that Satan's greatest desire would be to destroy the church from the inside out? The NT never said that churches would not suffer the same problems with internal sin that we face on an individual level.

i do believe in every word you are saying but my decision not to go to church anymore came after realizing that i do more sins inthere than out..
i cant go to pray & then feel bad about myself when i get back thats what happened the last few times i went.it's a horrible feeling.
i'm not expecting them to be perfect i just feel that they should try...


Hypocrisy is not in church and priests, it's in people who visit church and pretend to be good Christians.
You can't live under the bridge as a disciple; in that way you are creating your own religion which in similar to Christianity but it's not and you're clearly acting against 3rd commandment.


i agree on the people matter but they dont bother me as much.
i am acting against 3rd commandment i know that and that is what has been bothering me for so long

[MaryLupin]

i cant go to pray & then feel bad about myself when i get back thats what happened the last few times i went.it's a horrible feeling.
i'm not expecting them to be perfect i just feel that they should try...

I never go to church. The only reasons I have been in a church are for its architecture or to play (or listen to) a concert, but one analogy that comes to mind is a doctor's office. I expect a certain amount of professionalism to go along with the claim of knowledge (in this case medical, in your case spiritual). I don't expect any doctor (or nurse or medtech or office staff) to whom I pay a visit to be perfect but I do expect them to keep their hands out of the toilet before they hand me something or give me an exam. If they can't do that then I suspect that their claim to professionalism is bogus. I rather think it is fair to expect the same of those claiming religious professionalism.

[sciencefan]

hey all,
I know that in the bible it's written that we should go to mass & do some group praying but ( & am not proud to say it) i haven't been to any church in the last 2 years of my life, not because i have problems with God but rather with the people who speak in his name those who preach about jesus being poor and have millions in their bank accounts & those who do it as if they have to repeating the same words.......
am not saying that all of them are like that....
so i guess my question would be is it ok not to go to church for this reason?I know how you feel.
I used to not go to church because of the hypocrites, too.
I think it's important to know why you're going to church.
I go to church because I want a relationship with God, and with God's people.
I go to church because I learn how to live a life that is pleasing to God.
There are hypocrites in every church, but there are godly people, too.

I hope you will find a church where you feel comfortable to grow in the Lord.

[Redzeppelin]

i do believe in every word you are saying but my decision not to go to church anymore came after realizing that i do more sins inthere than out..
i cant go to pray & then feel bad about myself when i get back thats what happened the last few times i went.it's a horrible feeling.
i'm not expecting them to be perfect i just feel that they should try...

The guilt you feel is not from God - the Holy Spirit gives us conviction as to things we ought to change in our lives, but condemnation does not come from God. Christ paid the full debt for all your sins - past, present and future - at Calvary. Read Romans - Paul clearly tells us that we are called to life, not condemnation. Christ's atoning sacrifice means that God looks upon each of us as justified - our "debt" to God for our sins have been paid. The guilt you feel is unbiblical and an attempt by the Devil to drive you away from the body of Christ. We cannot be "perfect" and much of the New Testament tells us that "trying" to "be perfect" is futile. Our only hope is that we surrender our wills to God and allow Him to change us from the inside. Even Paul struggled with sin - the man who is highly esteemed as one of the greatest saints of Christianity admitted such. We should desire perfection, but not expect it our of ourselves or anybody else.


I never go to church. The only reasons I have been in a church are for its architecture or to play (or listen to) a concert, but one analogy that comes to mind is a doctor's office. I expect a certain amount of professionalism to go along with the claim of knowledge (in this case medical, in your case spiritual). I don't expect any doctor (or nurse or medtech or office staff) to whom I pay a visit to be perfect but I do expect them to keep their hands out of the toilet before they hand me something or give me an exam. If they can't do that then I suspect that their claim to professionalism is bogus. I rather think it is fair to expect the same of those claiming religious professionalism.

Only true if one equates spirituality with hygiene practices; the two are not equal. Religious people can be very "professional," but spirituality has nothing to do with "professionalism." The difference between the two you have compared it this:

The medical professional - unless seriously irresponsible, dysfunctional or antisocial - would not engage in "toilet dipping" before dealing with you because (if s/he has been properly socialized and trained) he would understand intellectually that this behavior is at cross-purposes with his/her job. Most human beings who are normal and healthy would not feel compelled to do something as unhealthy and irresponsible.

However, all human beings are inherently sinful by nature - and there is no amount of "saintliness" that guarantees sin-free behavior. "Toilet dipping" physicians is an aberration and ought to be censured; but sinful human beings are the norm; this does not excuse wrong behavior - it simply means that one should be less surprised and outraged by it. And, once again, it seems like we are focusing on the negative - plenty of churches are full of good people who are serving God faithfully; if you wish to find curses instead of blessings, well - they're out there and in all places we go - not just church.

Being a church member does not imply that "I'm a good, sin-free person." In fact, Christ himself said "It is not the healty person but the sick who is in need to treatment." I see churches as like hospitals in that they are full of broken people who desire to be restored - not full of "perfect" people who are "better" than everybody else.

[Orionsbelt]

Going to church, communion, dancing the dervish, walking the maze, sewing the corn, drinking wine,..... are rites and hence symbols. As symbols they point you to a discussion with what is transcendent ... those things that you reach without words. In much the same way a stone can be used in zen. The question is do the symbols, the rite, the pointers take you to a place where you connect with those things which are beyond words. What wind will carry you across the river, through the divide, to the place? If the symbols that you use do not do this for you, then you should not use these things for spiritual reasons. They are not serving you. There are however other reasons to participate in a rite.... social etc.

[Pendragon]

When I got sick. and the diganosis came back as bi-polar, churches I had attened for years, preached for for years, even one I helped found either threw me out or made me feel so uncomfortable that I had to leave. A minister cannot get away from his gift of preaching, so I began having service in my home. That was about 9 years or so ago. I've seen it packed, and I've been down to 1. My own children, two do not come to church anymore. They can make up their own minds, I force no one. I would still go and preach where I could find a church that would let me. But I have no quarells with anyone, I don't think that is the path God wants.

I agree, they waste so much money and time, but the lost are forgotten. The missionary goes without, and the people he or she goes to go without. And they seem content with the ones in church, and pay little attention to young people as if they will become saved through osmosis, or something. Nobody goes for the one lost lamb. If you do, they call you crazy.

God bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/Peace.gif

[AngelEyes714]

There's an interesting thing that Oswald Chambers says about Jesus (its based off a verse but don't remember the reference).

He says that Jesus practiced the discipline of Disillusionment. Whatever that means =p

I never thought of looking at disillusionment as a good thing or even something you have to practice and be disciplined about. I thought it was a gift of the pessimist that is given to you after a long hard life (sometimes not so long) and very bitter (therefore undesirable).

I'm an idealist. This little thing about what Oswald Chambers said makes sense though. Be disillusioned, be aware of people faults ALWAYS, know that people are capable of all sorts of wicked things, and then love them anyway.

This is no less true when you are in the church. But I don't think the hypocrisy lies in the person who goes to church and does bad things. I think the hypocrisy is in the person who goes to church and then thinks they are perfect because of it. Christianity is about accepting the fact that you do wrong and bad and wicked things and that you need someone else to plead your case to God and cover you so you can be with God. If someone stops thinking they do wrong, bad, and wicked things, then they have stopped believing that they need Christ. And if they go to church and don't believe they need Christ, they are being hypocrites.

Church is necessary for fellowship, because God didn't create people to live in a box or an island with no other human beings. We were designed to give and take from others as well as give and take from God. The church is supposed to be a place where we can do both of those in a community. Outside of the church, it is necessary as well...that's outreach...but you still need the communion of fellow believers. Even if your "church" is comprised of seven of your best friends where one is especially gifted in teaching. Fellowship is critical.

[Pendragon]

"Fellowship is critical." This quote from AngelEyes says it best. As one who was thrown to the wind, I can tell you myself, I never got any better until I managed to restart church even if I had to do it myself, and have the people come here. I have a dear lady who is a regular and she has such a sweet spirit that she uplifts everyone else. And it's not that she doesn't have her own troubles, she has a bit more than her share. She comes to learn and help others. I have more than my own share but when it comes time for church, the burden gets lighter, the people come in, the songs are sung, and when it comes time for me to speak, I have no trouble. Fellowship is what church is, but as AngelEyes said, don't think yourself perfect, but a work in progress.

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/EasterCross.gif

[dzebra]

The Church is one of the blessings that God gave his people. It helps to encourage and to share burdens. Blatant hypocrites ruin things, and they always have. The Church, when working the way God wants it to, is a thing everyone is eager to join. Seeing Church attendance as a duty kind of takes away from it. It should be seen as a blessing, then then question isn't "should I go to Church," it becomes "can I go to Church."

[stella]

hey again
ok its time to be specific ......i live in the middle east in a country where chistians form about 3% of the population needless to say that we need to belong to a christian community i never felt the difference during my school years because i attended catholic schools , the problem started when i went to college where i met other christians who obviously know nothing about their religion & think that some bible verses are common sayings simpley because they couldnt afford to go to any christian schools .......you'd probably say that they could simply just attend masses so i'll give you a hint about what's being said in church " we should be careful in everything we say & do because we r being watched & every wrong we do is going to be an invitation to others to criticize us ." i dont see how any of these words would help those kids who know nothing about what they believe in, in the other hand you see those who claim to work in the name of God sitting & doing nothing about it , like admitting those kids for free
now tell me that isnt corruption!

[lonely_prison]

Answer: The Bible tells us that we need to attend church so we can worship God with other believers and be taught His Word for our spiritual growth (Acts 2:42; Hebrews 10:25). Church is the place where believers can love one another (1 John 4:12), encourage one another (Hebrews 3:13), “spur” one another (Hebrews 10:24), serve one another (Galatians 5:13), instruct one another (Romans 15:14), honor one another (Romans 12:10), and be kind and compassionate to one another (Ephesians 4:32).

When a person trusts Jesus Christ for salvation, he or she is made a member of the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:27). For a church body to function properly, all of its "body parts" need to be present (1 Corinthians 12:14-20). Likewise, a believer will never reach full spiritual maturity without the assistance and encouragement of other believers (1 Corinthians 12:21-26). For these reasons, church attendance, participation, and fellowship should be regular aspects of a believer's life. Weekly church attendance is not required for believers, but someone who has trusted Christ should have a desire to worship God, be taught His Word, and fellowship with other believers.

[Demian]

I once saw John Mellencamp give an interview. He was talking about a time when as a teenager he had stopped going to church and his grandfather asked him why. "Because it's filled with a bunch of hypocrites." His grandfather laughed and replied, "And you think the rest of the world isn't?" So John stopped for a moment and then said maybe he'd go back next Sunday. Hypocracy knows no denomination or religion. People will stand in judgment of you no matter what. It is part of the human condition.

[blazeofglory]

hey all,
I know that in the bible it's written that we should go to mass & do some group praying but ( & am not proud to say it) i haven't been to any church in the last 2 years of my life, not because i have problems with God but rather with the people who speak in his name those who preach about jesus being poor and have millions in their bank accounts & those who do it as if they have to repeating the same words.......
am not saying that all of them are like that....
so i guess my question would be is it ok not to go to church for this reason?

I do not believe going to church is really a thing that is worthy of doing at all. If one goes to it as one can go any where just like one goes for a morning walk or one goes to a a restaurant. Going to church has nothing to do with being close to Christ. If one goes to church pray it is OK and if one does not it is also OK.

However one goes to church and does prayer and involves himself in charitable works it is a thing we can glorify him or else going and not going is the same.

[ampoule]

It seems to me that when we talk about hypocites we are doing nothing more or less than them. Think about your life right at this very minute. Do you have more than ANYONE else in the world. Are you willing to give up what you have, however little that may be, to help someone in need?

We also do not know the interior lives of these supposed hypocrites. Perhaps God is using them in ways we cannot understand. I think using hypocrites as an excuse to not do something is a cop-out. We should buck-up and admit to ourselves, man I'm lazy and don't want to get up, man all's they want is my money, man they're hypocrites....there are no new excuses.

I believe the Christian bible says that 'church' is wherever TWO or more are gathered together in my name. Well, there ya go. Grab a buddy and go sit on a rock or a park bench or a stool in a bar, a cathedral...wherever... and pray, sing, talk, dance, shout, draw, read a poem.....to God. Worship is not to entertain ourselves. It's to entertain God.

We need to stop all this whining.

[weepingforloman]

I've never been to church and i do not intend to go. I know god is with me and all around me and i do not need to go inside a place that claims to be GOD'S HOME. EVERYWHERE I GO GOD IS WITH ME.

True. However, there is always benefit in the company of other humans, especially in the case of godly fellowship.

Oh, as a side note, thanks to watching a Tokio Hotel music video in German class, I actually recognized that profile quote. Sprechen Sie Deutsch?

[Adelheid]

I've never been to church and i do not intend to go. I know god is with me and all around me and i do not need to go inside a place that claims to be GOD'S HOME. EVERYWHERE I GO GOD IS WITH ME.

That is not Biblical. Even though God is with you wherever you go, attending a church is still VERY important. You need to be part of a local church to encourage others and be encouraged yourself. Otherwise when you go astray, who is going to tell you so?

God often uses those in authority to tell you when you get out of alinement of His Word. Fellowshipping with other Christians is important to your walk with God. Of course, you do have to be discerning with the 'type' of christians you fellowship with. Fellowshipping is basically encouraging each other to walk in a closer relationship with God. If the friendships you make with other Christians do not acheive this or at least try to achieve this, then you will have to question the wisdom of having such a friend.

Why would God ordain preachers, teachers, leaders if He didn't intend for them to help His children? Attending a Church is not compulsory to be a christian but to be a Biblical Christian and a Christian whom God is pleased with, it is necessary to attend a Church.

[Virgil]

Adelheid, I haven't seen you around in a while. I hope you are doing well. :)

[kari]

I agree with the idea mentioned, about church being more for fellowshipping. I have come to understand, for myself, that being with others that worship in the same manner helps you along the way. And if you are unhappy in a specific church you are attending, trying something else might be a good idea. I also have come across hypocritical people in church, but in those cases, I find it important to remember that no one is perfect. We all have our faults. But if the people attending your church are bringing you down, it is probably not the best place for you to be. Church should be a place you can feel uplifted, make friends, and learn more about the Gospel. Even after all this is said, I don't necessarily think it is a requirement...to attend church. I think it can do good for people, and I myself enjoy being around people with similar beliefs that I can be friends with. But I think people can also do their own private worship, and scripture reading, and progress on their own. Everyone is different, and we each need different things (even at different times in our life). As long as God is the foundation for however we choose to go about church and studying, I would think it okay. I guess the only way you can know if God approves of how you spend your Sundays, is to ask Him youself.

To adelheid...I found your statement that you need to attend church for God to be pleased with you a bit judgemental. I also disagree with that statement. Every person is different, each with their own specific situations. It would be wrong to catagorize everyone into one group, and say if you don't attend church God is not pleased with you.

[Redzeppelin]

To adelheid...I found your statement that you need to attend church for God to be pleased with you a bit judgemental. I also disagree with that statement. Every person is different, each with their own specific situations. It would be wrong to catagorize everyone into one group, and say if you don't attend church God is not pleased with you.

Excuse me for passing through this conversation...

adelheid offered up an opinion - not a judgment. The New Testament makes it very clear that being a part of Christian fellowship is extremely important for the believer if s/he is to mature in his/her relationship with Christ. Nowhere did Christ or Paul imply that isolation of the believer was condusive to one's "walk."

Personally, I found nothing "judgmental" in adelheid's remarks. God being "pleased" implied no judgment - it simply suggests what might make Him happy. I'd be inclined to agree that a total separation from any type of Christian fellowship would be detrimental to a Christian's growth - and a non-growing Christian would definitely not "please" God.

[kari]

In my opinion, it was judgemental. I had just wanted to state my opinion as well...that I don't think you can put everyone into the same catagory, as we each have different situations. I have known some people to be a specific religion or sect, who live nowhere near one of their churches. I can't see God not being pleased with that person because he/she can't go to church. There many other situations I'm sure that would prevent someone. Or what about someone that is ill, and cannot go to church for a long period of time, simply because it is against docs orders. In my opinion, judgemental to imply that God isn't pleased with someone for not going to church. And not going to church, does not necessarily mean being completely seperated from any type of Christian fellowship...that is not what I was commenting on.

Just to clarify, I was in no way offended, I just felt it necessary to bring up that it is not necessarily true that God is displeased with you for not attending church. There may be someone reading these posts, in a situation that prevents them from attending, and I personally, wouldn't want them to feel guilty/bad for not being able to attend from someones opinion...I would hope that people would acknowledge it is between you and God. That is all I intended to say. I of course, as I stated in my first post, think fellowship is a great thing.

[Redzeppelin]

In my opinion, it was judgemental. I had just wanted to state my opinion as well...that I don't think you can put everyone into the same catagory, as we each have different situations. I have known some people to be a specific religion or sect, who live nowhere near one of their churches. I can't see God not being pleased with that person because he/she can't go to church. There many other situations I'm sure that would prevent someone. Or what about someone that is ill, and cannot go to church for a long period of time, simply because it is against docs orders. In my opinion, judgemental to imply that God isn't pleased with someone for not going to church. And not going to church, does not necessarily mean being completely seperated from any type of Christian fellowship...that is not what I was commenting on.

Just to clarify, I was in no way offended, I just felt it necessary to bring up that it is not necessarily true that God is displeased with you for not attending church. There may be someone reading these posts, in a situation that prevents them from attending, and I personally, wouldn't want them to feel guilty/bad for not being able to attend from someones opinion...I would hope that people would acknowledge it is between you and God. That is all I intended to say. I of course, as I stated in my first post, think fellowship is a great thing.

Understood - but you gave examples of individuals who did not attend church because of mitigating circumstances, which is very different from the person who says "Organized religion/church is a sham and I don't need it - my personal relationship with God is all I need." That individual is wrong in his attitude. People who cannot attend church but desire to do so - well, of course God understands that. My contention is that people who insist that church membership is not essential may be fooling themselves; I say "may" because different circumstances may or may not justify the decision to not attend church.

As well, I think the decision to attend church "pleases" God less so than those who attend in order to "feed" (serve) others. Attendance with the wrong attitude is worse than a staying away because of some perceived self-righteous idea that the believer is "better" (i.e. doesn't need) the church community.

[mazHur]

It is not necessary for a person to feel better going to church, mosque or a temple. Atleast, I never felt that way and have no mind for that in future.
Assemblage in temples is mainly for congregational purposes together with observance of some rituals. If God is everywhere, do we need special edifices to pray or worship Him? Going to temple is just a fantastic pursuit for the superstitious and frustrated people. God lives in your heart,,,thank him with your every breath ! So, simple !

[kari]

Well, for myself I was involved in a church for 6 years...and eventually it just wore me out and ended up bringing me down more that uplifting me. After that, I made the choice for myself not to attend church anymore...any church for that matter for the time being. I haven't gone to church in over 2 years, and it was a very good thing for me. My relationship with God has strengthened throughout, and I haven't lost sight of who I am, or where I should be. I am actually doing better than I was towards the last couple of years in the church I was attending. I never once felt at all that God disaproved of my decision, which was made with much prayer. Now that is not a case where I couldn't go, I did not have the desire...I needed that time to step away from attending and worship on my own. (Although I still have my husband and two girls with me...so I wasn't completely void of all other Christian fellowship). I am finally getting to a point that I am craving to attend a church, but am trying to decide which to try. If I find out that is right for us, we will go...if not, I have no doubts that God will still be smiling upon us, for we will be studying and praying in our own home together. I just thought I might share that...is another example in which I don't think you can pool everyone together. Everyone is going through their own things, has their own circumstances. Yes, I think in general attending church is good, and helps a lot of people. But we are each different, and need different things at different times in our life to stay uplifted.
I do agree with what you have said though...but I wasn't referring to the person who said organized religion is a sham. For me, I like to have that fellowship. And I am guessing (my own opinion) that if someone does feel that way, then they really wouldn't get much out of going to church. And yes, I think you are blessed more for having the right attitude about the things you do...it isn't always about just doing. God does know your intents!

Mazhur.. I agree that a lot of times, in a lot of religions, it is complicated too much. Loving God, and doing your best doesn't have to be so hard. I think it comes down to what you allow for your reltionship with God. I agree that God is everywhere. The church I was in said the Lord's presense is strongest in a Temple, where you need to go to be closest to Him. For me, doesn't always make sense. I want my daughters to know that they can go and sit in their own bedroom, pray, read scriptures, and be as close to God as they seek. But I think some people need the more structured beliefs? Maybe they feel like they can get closer to God in a Temple. Either way, I suppose as long as they make efforts to do so...wether in a bedroom, or in a Temple, and they can feel that closeness, that's what counts. I don't think it is for the superstitious though, I think people that just seek to be close to God.

[mazHur]

Please check out at this link. It states the feelings of a person about God etc some days before he was to be hanged. He is now regarded as a martyr and hero in India. He was a Sikh.
I hope this will provide you with some insight into matters elaborated by him.
http://shahidbhagatsingh.org/index.asp?link=atheist

[Metanoia]

Hey, I got an idea hows about we stop believing what other people tell us to and start thinking for ourselves.Like the good book says. Maybe we should stop fretting about what we think God would want. How does anyone know what god wants anyway?? Who talks to him? I would like to know. Because I'm pretty sure if i told everyone I was speaking to The lord they would commit me. Back when I was alive with Jesus, we spoke alot but not so much any more- does any one have his e-mail???? I would really like to get back in touch.

[Redzeppelin]

Hey, I got an idea hows about we stop believing what other people tell us to and start thinking for ourselves.Like the good book says.

This sounds like one of the stereotypical charges levelled against believers - that we are like sheep that don't "think for ourselves." Am I wrong in interpreting your comments this way? I hope I am, because it becomes very tiresome to have this inaccurate charge levelled.



Maybe we should stop fretting about what we think God would want. How does anyone know what god wants anyway??

Easy answer: the Bible makes it clear what God "wants" out of us.


Who talks to him? I would like to know. Because I'm pretty sure if i told everyone I was speaking to The lord they would commit me. Back when I was alive with Jesus, we spoke alot but not so much any more- does any one have his e-mail???? I would really like to get back in touch.

Your conception of "talk" sounds pretty narrow. Your flippancy denies the reality that spiritual communication can occur. The only people who will "commit" you are those who don't believe. Who gave them authority to define sanity, and what gives them any power whatsoever to define the parameters of what is sane and what is not?

As far as your desire to "get back in touch" with Jesus - that's easy. Start talking - He's always listening (even if you say unkind things about Him).

[Metanoia]

This sounds like one of the stereotypical charges levelled against believers - that we are like sheep that don't "think for ourselves." Am I wrong in interpreting your comments this way? I hope I am, because it becomes very tiresome to have this inaccurate charge levelled.




Easy answer: the Bible makes it clear what God "wants" out of us.



Your conception of "talk" sounds pretty narrow. Your flippancy denies the reality that spiritual communication can occur. The only people who will "commit" you are those who don't believe. Who gave them authority to define sanity, and what gives them any power whatsoever to define the parameters of what is sane and what is not?

As far as your desire to "get back in touch" with Jesus - that's easy. Start talking - He's always listening (even if you say unkind things about Him).Isn't nice to have easy answers, Isn't nice to have a book that explains how the whole universe works. The necranomican makes it clear how you should behave too, does that mean you should follow it?. Being as every religion belives (knows) that their beliefs are right, you better hope yours is right too. And When did I say unkind things about Jesus? I happen to be very fond of jesus. He was one cool guy. I admire a person who has the ability to walk on water. I also admire Don Juan, he could reconstruct his reality (much like Jesus did) which is how they were both able to do such incredible feats.

[Redzeppelin]

Isn't nice to have easy answers, Isn't nice to have a book that explains how the whole universe works.

It's nice to have devoted many years of my life to reading and understanding a book that has enabled me to undrestand more about God and the reality He created than I ever could have come to understand on my own. You call the answers "easy" for what reason? Because you think I didn't work to come up with them? How do you know the process by which I formulate my answers? Only God can do that.


The necranomican makes it clear how you should behave too, does that mean you should follow it?

You mean the Necromomicon by Alhazred? The book of magic? I'm not sure it tells me how I should live - unless you're talking about a different book. The Bible most accurately explains the existence of morality, sinful human nature and how reality works. Not every book that claims divine origin does so.


Being as every religion belives (knows) that their beliefs are right, you better hope yours is right too.

I'm confident.


And When did I say unkind things about Jesus? I happen to be very fond of jesus. He was one cool guy. I admire a person who has the ability to walk on water. I also admire Don Juan, he could reconstruct his reality (much like Jesus did) which is how they were both able to do such incredible feats.

The walking on water is one of the least important of miracles Jesus accomplished. He is worthy of admiration because His sacrifice on the Cross enables all of us to attain salvation - no matter how sinful we are - simply by accepting the gift. Considering that the wages of sin is death, I'm way more impressed by His sacrifice than the ability to command the elements to do His bidding.

Jesus did not "construct" reality; He came here to reveal its true nature - and that reality is Himself.

[Pendragon]

Isn't nice to have easy answers, Isn't nice to have a book that explains how the whole universe works. The necronomicon makes it clear how you should behave too, does that mean you should follow it?. Being as every religion believes (knows) that their beliefs are right, you better hope yours is right too. And When did I say unkind things about Jesus? Um, you do realize that this book was only existent in the wild imagination of H P Lovecraft, and that the author's name, Abdul Alhazred, was a pen name Lovecraft had made up to sell poetry?

Quoting from Wikipedia what I already know from reading Lovecraft myself:

How Lovecraft conceived the name "Necronomicon" is not clear — Lovecraft said that the title came to him in a dream.[3] Although some have suggested that Lovecraft was influenced primarily by Robert W. Chambers' collection of short stories The King in Yellow, which centers on a mysterious and disturbing play in book form, Lovecraft is not believed to have read that work until 1927.[4]

Donald R. Burleson has argued that the idea for the book was derived from Nathaniel Hawthorne, though Lovecraft himself noted that "moldy hidden manuscripts" were one of the stock features of Gothic literature.[5]

Lovecraft wrote[6] that the title, as translated from the Greek language, meant "an image of the law of the dead": nekros - νεκρός ("dead"), nomos - νόμος ("law"), eikon - εικών ("image").[7] A more prosaic translation can be derived by conjugating nemo ("to consider"): "Concerning the dead". Another Greek translation can be "Law of the image of the dead".[citation needed]

Greek editions of Lovecraft's works have commented that the word can have several different meanings in Greek when broken at its roots:[citation needed]

* Necro-Nomicon : The Book of the Dead, derived from Nomicon (Book of Law), or the Book of the Laws of the Dead.
* Necro-Nomo-icon : The Book of Dead Laws.
* Necro-Nemo-ikon : A Study or Classification of the Dead.
* Necro-Nomo-eikon : Image of the Law of the Dead.
* Necro-Nemein-Ikon : Book Concerning the Dead.
* Necr(o)-Onom(a)-icon : The Book of Dead Names, derived from όνομα onoma ("name").

Lovecraft was often asked about the veracity of the Necronomicon, and always answered that it was completely his invention. In a letter to Willis Conover, Lovecraft elaborated upon his typical answer:

Now about the “terrible and forbidden books” — I am forced to say that most of them are purely imaginary. There never was any Abdul Alhazred or Necronomicon, for I invented these names myself. Robert Bloch devised the idea of Ludvig Prinn and his De Vermis Mysteriis, while the Book of Eibon is an invention of Clark Ashton Smith's. Robert E. Howard is responsible for Friedrich von Junzt and his Unaussprechlichen Kulten.... As for seriously-written books on dark, occult, and supernatural themes — in all truth they don’t amount to much. That is why it’s more fun to invent mythical works like the Necronomicon and Book of Eibon.[3]



Later writers in the Cthulhu Mystos wrote their own versions of the book.

These include:

# Al Azif: The Necronomicon by L. Sprague de Camp (1973, ISBN 1-58715-043-3)
# Necronomicon by "Simon" (1980, ISBN 0-380-75192-5)
# The Gates of the Necronomicon by "Simon" (2006, ISBN 0-060-89006-1)
# H.R. Giger's Necronomicon by H.R. Giger (1991, ISBN 0-9623447-2-9)
# Necronomicon II by H.R. Giger
# The Necronomicon edited by George Hay (1993, ISBN 1-871438-16-0)
# Necronomicon: The Wanderings Of Alhazred by Donald Tyson (2004, ISBN 0-7387-0627-2)

I fail to see how we got here on the "Going to Church" thread, but I wanted to be sure people knew this book of magic is a fake.

Jesus said "Where two or three are gathered in my name..." That's church!

God Bless

Pendragon