God the "Father"

[Orpheus]

Why is God referred to as "Father" when there are so many terrible or absent fathers out there? This certainly would not be a name that I would wear when so many children carry around negative images of what a father is.

[Logos]

There are specific rules for this RT forum :)
http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410

If you could edit your first post? to provide quotes from the Bible (http://www.online-literature.com/bible/bible.php) or other religious/sacred text regarding your question, then it can stay open.

[bazarov]

Maybe because God should be a role model for all fathers in the world. Unfortunately, it isn't but that shouldn't be a reason to stop calling him like that. Actually, it should be a reason to call him ''Father'' to warn those sinners and for others never to forget how good father should act like.

[MaryLupin]

Elohim - is a plural form (i.e. means gods)
The singular of this word is Eloha - there is quite a bit of dispute about what that means - is there one or many gods inside this Elohim? The ways in which the language is used (a singular verb with a plural noun) are interesting.

Then there is the feminine version Eloah see this article for something of interest with respect the gendered (and ungendered?) nature of the divine (http://www.northernway.org/weblog/?p=33) behind the Judaic-Christian-Muslim tradition.

The point is that the modern translations of the bible have not (so far) taken this many-naturedness into account. I have always thought it would be fun to rewrite Genesis mixing up the singular and plural, the he's and the she's. Then would could have a male god writhing in the pain of giving birth to humanity and a female god giving Adam the power to name and a many-faced gender-neutral god talking to its creation. That would be cool.

[Whifflingpin]

Just for Logos - Matthew 7 vv9-11
"If any one of yourselves is asked by his son for bread, will he give him a stone? If he is asked for a fish, will he give him a serpent? Why then, if you, evil as you are, know well enough how to give your children what is good for them, is not your Father in heaven much more ready to give wholesome gifts to those who ask him?"

The existence of many bad fathers does not make fatherhood itself a bad thing, or, to accept MaryLupin's argument, the existence of bad parents does not invalidate the just pride felt by good and ordinary parents.

[Redzeppelin]

Maybe because God should be a role model for all fathers in the world. Unfortunately, it isn't but that shouldn't be a reason to stop calling him like that. Actually, it should be a reason to call him ''Father'' to warn those sinners and for others never to forget how good father should act like.

Nicely said; this is correct and we cannot make the mistake of putting the cart before the horse: God was "father" long before we degraded the term with our absent dads, alcoholic dads, abusive/molesting dads et al. "Father" is applied to God as the provided, protector and source of all blessings - He who "raises" us into maturity through spiritual/emotional growth.

[NikolaiI]

What, God's a He? No thanks, I think I'll go with Hertha.

[Redzeppelin]

What, God's a He? No thanks, I think I'll go with Hertha.


God is spoken of in masculine terms - I believe - because of the connotations that "father" should have in terms of a figure who is strong, guides, teaches, protects, provides and raises his children; God, however, possesses both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities, which he divided up into our genders (hence my quotes around the terms - they are identified as "masculine" or "feminine" based upon where we find them). This means that - although God is referred to as "father" that He also possesses the best of what mothers provide: mercy, compassion, kindness, beauty, tenderness, etc.

[Whifflingpin]

Red: "although God is referred to as "father" "

I'll just wrench this out of context, to hang a question on.

Is God referred to as "Father" anywhere in the Old Testament?

[Shield&Sword]

Mary in hebrew the plural form is used for number and for respect same as arabic, when we talk to important person using plural form we express our respect for him, thats why the english translation to the turah they write God when they translate Elohem. In Latin this form is used for example when we use the word you (voi) for plural when we talk to one person to express our respect.
In Italian we use "Lei" to talk in respectfull way to a person, in same time "lei" mean "she". One of most important thing when we translate language is to translate it looking from the same angle of the speakers of that language not from our angle. Father in bible mean that God loves human, not a biological father or a father that adopted a son. It is used for Jesus to express that he is more close to God and God loves him more because he is the prophet not because Jesus was born only from woman without father, Jesus peace be upon him in bible says more than once "my father and your father", every good man is son of God meaning close to God nothing more, its the language, the hebrew language that differ 100% from latin.

[NikolaiI]

God is spoken of in masculine terms - I believe - because of the connotations that "father" should have in terms of a figure who is strong, guides, teaches, protects, provides and raises his children; God, however, possesses both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities, which he divided up into our genders (hence my quotes around the terms - they are identified as "masculine" or "feminine" based upon where we find them). This means that - although God is referred to as "father" that He also possesses the best of what mothers provide: mercy, compassion, kindness, beauty, tenderness, etc.

Yeah, I understand.

[ampoule]

Why is God referred to as "Father" when there are so many terrible or absent fathers out there? This certainly would not be a name that I would wear when so many children carry around negative images of what a father is.

When I was on staff at my church, we did a study, "Words That Hurt/Words That Heal". I thought it was going to be about gossip and slander and racist remarks, etc., but it was totally about gender, and for the very reasons that Orpheus has mentioned above. There are many people who can't believe God is love because of their own experiences with their fathers.
Many Protestant churches are working very hard to become fully inclusive, including changing the words to some beloved hymns. Not a few hackles have been raised over THAT!

[MaryLupin]

Mary in hebrew the plural form is used for number and for respect...

Way cool! Do you know archaic Hebrew as well as the contemporary language? If you do - do I have some questions for you!

I know about the plural form as a respect form. That is why it can be used with singular verbs, at least that is what I understand. And I really get how different some cultural assumptions are between cultures and ethnicities. So when you say the father-son icon that is in the bible means to you closeness and nothing more, that is not what many English speaking people have interpreted the English version of the bible to mean. The whole gender thing as it has come down has been the source of much anguish to women who have been excluded form that "bond." There is an article called The Image of God in Man: Is Woman Included? that I have read (it is in JSTOR) by MaryAnne Cline Horowitz. The title says it all. It is a question really necessary to ask in a culture that reads a tad literally. That is why gender neutral bibles have been researched.

This is why I think it is important to come to a better understanding of how archaic Hebrew dealt with gender and plurality so that these barriers of misunderstanding can be breached and, for those who wish to profess religion, a better grasp on the cultural history and force of its texts can be achieved. Ruah, for example, being a feminine word and a word for Spirit (the Holy Spirit, I suppose)...mostly when I hear people people speak about the H.S. it is fairly carefully gender neutral. It is not all that common to hear H.S. spoken of as The Mother or even as She. There is an article a bit about this "feminization of god (http://villagechurchonline.wordpress.com/2007/07/27/the-feminization-of-god-buffy-brown/)" should you wish to look at it.

There is another article (JSTOR again) called Cosmology, Ontology, and the Travail of Biblical Language by Langdon Gilkey that talks about the meaning loss with respect to how verbs are used between when these texts were conceived in language and contemporary usage. As an example, he says "when God was said to have 'acted,' it was believed that he had performed an observable act in space and time so that he functioned as any secondary cause; and when he was said to have 'spoken,' it was believed than an audible voice was heard by the person addressed." This functioning of language matters. This makes of god a corporeal presence in the universe and has consequences to how god is understood and how god functions in the community of believers. This is vastly different now and as a consequence it is also a vastly different religion. That difference interests me especially with respect to how gender and number function culturally as the language and culture changes from archaic Hebrew to contemporary languages and minds.

[Mortis Anarchy]

Maybe because God should be a role model for all fathers in the world. Unfortunately, it isn't but that shouldn't be a reason to stop calling him like that. Actually, it should be a reason to call him ''Father'' to warn those sinners and for others never to forget how good father should act like.

I agree. And why should we put the deeds of bad fathers and give God a bad rep. Not cool.

[Shield&Sword]

I speak hebrew but not archaic hebrew, also i speak arabic (my first language) they both come from the old arabic lang. used before Ismeal so the uses of number and gender in both lang is similar.
In arabic to express that there is no gender we use the maschile form, for example we say Allah in arabic and there is no femminine form of it, same thing Eloah in hebrew has no femminine form, and using the maschile form prevent us from thinking on gender, simply there is no male or female in subject. Father used in bible as i said it refair to the level of love of God to that person, here gender does not exist, the problem is that west translated bible as they understand it not as hebrew language mean so they say that God is father because Jesus got only mother so as you see greek and romans looked at the word without paying attention to the hebrew language and the way of uses of the words. You can understand how much the language is important by reading the bible: when jews came to Jesus accusing him of saying that he is God, he responded to them by saying "isnt written in turah that you are gods? so why when i say i am son of God you dont agree" (in old test the uses of word gods forhuman mean master or important person, for example when God said to Moses: and make you "god" to pharoh, Jews didnt understand that Moses is God but a person who is highier than pharoh). did you see how Jesus defended him self by making jews remember that they must pay attention to language and it's uses.
Before asking why God is not in image of female after saying "God in image of man" we must ask what does it mean image of man, and does God really got the image of man and to approve it. And so on fo holy spirit and other words.

One of the example of the wrong translation of bible is a paragraph located in book of Mathew, when the writer say that Jesus rode on 2 donkeys in same time: rode on "THEM". The translater used the form "them" because he didnt understand the hebrew language well and how it is used (book of Mathew was written in hebrew but the original script. is missed and they got only the greek translation of it) and translated the scentence in way that logic doesnt accept. Infact the word them is canceled now from new vrsions.

There is saying in my country: the son is the secret of his father. Mean that the boy show the characters of his father, of his biological father.
The one who wrote this thread looked at word father in bible using the same meaning of father when we talk about our parents, and that the son express his father's character and didnt look at it from the right angle, from a jews window.

[weepingforloman]

What, God's a He? No thanks, I think I'll go with Hertha.

God is not "male" but masculine (for more on this idea read That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis). Consider for a moment (independent of your personal philosophy or that politically correct bull crap) the normal behavior of humans in courtship. Generally speaking, the male is the one who makes the first move, he is the "aggressor" in a way. The female is generally less active. Like the yin-yang (I can't remember which is male, which female) the female is calm and still, while the male is the opposite. So is the relationship of God to us. He is the active one, we the receptive. He is the bridegroom, we the bride. He is the father, we the children. He gives, we receive. He seeks, we are found. The sexes in humanity are (according to Christian belief) a reflection of this relationship. Manhood is less real than the masculinity of God, a shadow and a mirror for a great, intense power.

[joshka]

Some people seem to have the same thoughts as I do.
Simply, God is what a father should strive to be. Earthly fathers are not a depiction of the heavenly father.

[AngelEyes714]

Mary in hebrew the plural form is used for number and for respect same as arabic, when we talk to important person using plural form we express our respect for him, thats why the english translation to the turah they write God when they translate Elohem. In Latin this form is used for example when we use the word you (voi) for plural when we talk to one person to express our respect.
In Italian we use "Lei" to talk in respectfull way to a person, in same time "lei" mean "she". One of most important thing when we translate language is to translate it looking from the same angle of the speakers of that language not from our angle. Father in bible mean that God loves human, not a biological father or a father that adopted a son. It is used for Jesus to express that he is more close to God and God loves him more because he is the prophet not because Jesus was born only from woman without father, Jesus peace be upon him in bible says more than once "my father and your father", every good man is son of God meaning close to God nothing more, its the language, the hebrew language that differ 100% from latin.

I guess this also explains the reason why many leaders (emperors, kings, queens...) refer to themselves as "we"...


The whole gender thing as it has come down has been the source of much anguish to women who have been excluded form that "bond." There is an article called The Image of God in Man: Is Woman Included? that I have read (it is in JSTOR) by MaryAnne Cline Horowitz. The title says it all. It is a question really necessary to ask in a culture that reads a tad literally. That is why gender neutral bibles have been researched.

I think that it is important to remember that, though women are created in God's image as well as men, we have been created in a DIFFERENT image...meaning we have different roles to play then men do...

And I think that, in spite of the Bible being written by men, it sets a picture of a woman's role...granted its not exactly clear and it sounds almost insulting (probably thanks to poor translating)...But I think its partly our responsibility to make sure men play their part, too...

Sorry...way off topic...

[MaryLupin]

Some people seem to have the same thoughts as I do.
Simply, God is what a father should strive to be. Earthly fathers are not a depiction of the heavenly father.

Being female I find this problematic. I think of Mary (you know the virgin one) and her "relationship" with her Father (you know the godly one) as pretty typical of way too many earthly fathers. She gets the kid, the rap and nobody says "excuuuuuse me" to the Father. There wasn't another way to make himself an earthly representation than "visiting" his virgin daughter? Sets a bad precedent in my opinion. And is way too reminiscent of Zeus and Leda. Come to think of it, this whole fathers deflowering daughters/virgins/unwililng women (often called rape and incest) is a bit repetitive in our various mythologies.

[NikolaiI]

God is not "male" but masculine (for more on this idea read That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis). Consider for a moment (independent of your personal philosophy or that politically correct bull crap) the normal behavior of humans in courtship. Generally speaking, the male is the one who makes the first move, he is the "aggressor" in a way. The female is generally less active. Like the yin-yang (I can't remember which is male, which female) the female is calm and still, while the male is the opposite. So is the relationship of God to us. He is the active one, we the receptive. He is the bridegroom, we the bride. He is the father, we the children. He gives, we receive. He seeks, we are found. The sexes in humanity are (according to Christian belief) a reflection of this relationship. Manhood is less real than the masculinity of God, a shadow and a mirror for a great, intense power.

This sounds like a lead in to sexism, or at least the idea of male superiority. Red's post made a lot more sense to me, except I'm not sure the qualities he attributed to feminine need to be feminine any more than masculine. That is, I don't think females are more merciful, compassionate, kind, tender, beautiful, etc. I mean, if nothing else, for the Christian religion those should be embodied in Christ, the perfect one, or in other religions, the Buddha or others. I don't know; I just like Red's idea better, that both sexes are a shadow of two sides of the divine; yours just makes me a little wary.

Anyway, if "God" is "Love" then he is not male or female, since love doesn't have a gender, I think we should keep that in mind.

I also think there is male and female in all of us. In fact, I think we're all one. -time for laughs.- ...that would be because an ontology that finds us separate doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[weepingforloman]

We ARE separate. If we weren't, how could I think differently than you? If we are all one, doesn't that mean that totalitarianism is the only valid system?

But this is off topic. I don't mean to be sexist. If you like, examine the mammals instead of the humans. Again, generally the male is the one who approaches, the female who the one who is approached. I think that, if we think clearly, we CAN say that males are different than females in more than just anatomy. After all, testosterone is proven to be higher in men, and it is proven to produce certain behavioral effects.

In any case, as I said, the role of man to woman is only a vague shadow of the relationship of God to human.

[NikolaiI]

There was an animal, a dinosaur, that was so big it had to have two brains in its body; one in the head, and one in the tail to control the tail. They both thought, but they were part of the same organism. I know that probably won't help much, but it's like all our ideas of space are misguided. You see, how are we separate? Separated by skin, space, ego, body? Then if we got really close together, it would make us one? No, we're one already: we're part of the world, two parts of it, like two parts of a body, two parts of a larger whole. We're like so many mites in an organism that are actually part of the organism. All one. And you might say, yes, but we're two separate mites; except that we're not individual beings ourselves (even when we say mites, there are vast differences in size), but made up of lots of different forces and drives; voices, if you will; so it all breaks down. The fact is we are the world, of the world, when we act we move the world, we are the world itself moving. We're not separate in any way. Our consciousness leaks into it. Anyway.

How can two rocks be not separate, since neither of them thinks?

[Night Closet]

Actually i agree with the voice which refuses to call our great God as "Father"....God is not our father ..God is our creator.....He is the only creator on earth..but there are many fathers......i believe

[Shield&Sword]

Agree with Night C.

[Redzeppelin]

Actually i agree with the voice which refuses to call our great God as "Father"....God is not our father ..God is our creator.....He is the only creator on earth..but there are many fathers......i believe


But we are invited to pray to God as our father by His Son ... (cf. the Lord's Prayer).

[blazeofglory]

Why is God referred to as "Father" when there are so many terrible or absent fathers out there? This certainly would not be a name that I would wear when so many children carry around negative images of what a father is.

Father is a father no matter how children judge when they go astray, for they are really kind and generous and of course they are always give us tender love and affection.

That is why father is often linked with God

[weepingforloman]

There was an animal, a dinosaur, that was so big it had to have two brains in its body; one in the head, and one in the tail to control the tail. They both thought, but they were part of the same organism. I know that probably won't help much, but it's like all our ideas of space are misguided. You see, how are we separate? Separated by skin, space, ego, body? Then if we got really close together, it would make us one? No, we're one already: we're part of the world, two parts of it, like two parts of a body, two parts of a larger whole. We're like so many mites in an organism that are actually part of the organism. All one. And you might say, yes, but we're two separate mites; except that we're not individual beings ourselves (even when we say mites, there are vast differences in size), but made up of lots of different forces and drives; voices, if you will; so it all breaks down. The fact is we are the world, of the world, when we act we move the world, we are the world itself moving. We're not separate in any way. Our consciousness leaks into it. Anyway.

How can two rocks be not separate, since neither of them thinks?

If we are the same, how is it that I disagree with you? If we are not the same on the level of values, thoughts, emotions, etc., then what is this "oneness" worth?

[AdoreroDio]

I do not know how the conversation lead from the first post but my answer to the question is simply this:

God was the father of all men on earth and he created all things. He set the example of the perfect father by his unconditional love for his children. He gave up his only son that he could receive all of us as sons, no matter how sinful we are. Also, he was God the Father before the fathers we know today existed- there was a perfect world on earth but Eve chose to break that and let evil into the world.
If you look at it more from the historical sense then you could also say it this way- the general use of the phrase 'God the Father' in the Bible is generally used in the context of the Holy Trinity "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit". God is one in three. But, if the Bible just called him God all the time then it would get confusing when it spoke of Jesus or the Holy Spirit- both God but a different part of the trinity. God the Father created us and gave his only son to us out of love, God the Son came to earth to take away our sins that we may forever be with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was givin to us a guide when God the Son left the earth.

God did not put the negative connotation with father- we did. He is there when we have no other earthly father to truly love us. He is everything an earthly father is not.

God is the father he is not God A father.

[weepingforloman]

Well put.

[Metanoia]

I think God is a sick, sick man with a demented sense of humor. If I could have a talk with him I'd give him a piece of my mind. First off, what was he thinking when he made the duck billed platypus?? What the heck is that thing? Do you think he was sitting up there in heaven and was thinking " yeah, a duck billed platypus, now thats a good idea"

[weepingforloman]

Is the platypus unhappy?

[rosa]

God is referred as "father" not only to be a model for us to follow but also to introduce the idea of punishment and reward which is in turn an introduction to hell and heaven.
A father is supposed to love his children but also to make sure that they follow the rules. He is both law and compassion.In a way a more complete and consistent figure than Mary who only loves his children.Taking away the idea of punishment we remouve the authority and decisional power of God. God is a complete figure he loves his children and rewards them when they are good but punishes them when they are bad.I do not recall Mary punishing her child in the Bible . Her role is to provide affection and support.Even in heaven her role is passive.She is there we know that but She does not seem to take any part in decisions.Yet She seats next to God.Doesn'She?God decides who goes in and who stays out.His authority comes from his power to punish. That what authority is: the right to punish. As a woman I am a bit concerned of the way authority is split in heaven.
Going back to the father figure God is the whole in one :Ruler( in the sense of setting rules) model,judge and executor.It is acceptable ant it makes sense that in this case the power is all in one hand otherwise the whole idea of one God would collapse.Mind you a sort of dictatorship even if depicted in a positive way.In fact we are supposed to do what we told there too.Simply we do what we are told or we cannot go in.