Desire:Innate or Socially Conditioned?

[Orpheus]

The first question that I want to ask is: are we pre-wired at birth to think a certain way, to desire certain things, and to behave with certain characteristics, unique to our species?

Clearly social conditioning has always been an integral part of established civilizations; and with this tool, their governments, economy, religion etc. have been solidified. By what other way could you make an entire population conform to singular ideas?

If all of our ideas on religion, ethics, morality, business, success, sex, racism, solitude, fear, individualism, dating, intolerance, etc. are derived from social conditioning, is there anything left of our innate human behavior?

While social conditioning may be important in maintaining the stability of an economy, I think that it has rather a negative effect on the individual. (However, if that individual didn’t realize that he/she is being conditioned to believe something, I suppose he/she wouldn’t feel too strongly one way or another.) Rambling aside, I leave it open to discussion.

[NikolaiI]

I can't remember what philosopher it was started off his book saying he wanted to re-examine all his beliefs because they were not his own, he had been taught things others had decided for him, before he knew who he was or could decide for himself. I think without any social conditioning at all, we would be a lot stupider, worse off than apes, since they have social conditioning, and have a very hard time learning how to speak after adolescence or anything like that. We would speak in grunts. We would have hunger, we might desire shelter if we could put warmth and shelter together, and understand the difference between warmth and cold.

But then, do you just mean social conditioning by society, or do you mean no contact at all with humans, because I think a child raised much more outside of society would be a good thing. Parents, pets, and family members coming over occasionally, that would be my idea of an interesting experiment, if nothing else. If we don't have any contact with humans, though, I think our intelligence would be incredibly decreased.

Anyway, I think desire is almost entirely conditioned.

[Orpheus]

The type of social conditioning that I am concerned with is that which is done by society and by our parents. If I implied that seclusion from all other human beings would be ideal, I apologize. That was not my intention. Seclusion would lead to a whole mess of problems that are irrelevant to this discussion. The reason social conditioning, in my opinion, is antagonistic to the individual is that it promotes lies as truth. I don't know of any of my preconcieved ideas that were even close to the truth. In the past few years I had to do a lot of reframing of my ideas. It was only in re-examining my beliefs that I could even begin to understand why I had them in the first place.

I understand that social conditioning is necassary in some respects. However, wouldn't it be healthier for the individual to at least have a chance to think for his/her self before being coerced into believing ideas that were never their own?

You're probably right in that desire is completly conditioned. That is the conclusion that I was drawing as well. Our desires are most certainly not those that were expressed even 50..100..500 years ago.

[NikolaiI]

Yeah, this is an interesting topic, and no, I didn't think you meant that either. I recently got a book called "Nature's Thumbprint", which is supposed to be about the nature vs. nurture debate, but I haven't really started to read it yet. I think desire is socially conditioned because without it, we don't have the same desires, or the intelligence to link most of the things up we take for granted as we are. So I guess the problem is what we are being conditioned to, as you might say, to something where the true self is obscured, or potential is obscured. Personally I believe in a radical change at how traditional roles are viewed, and I think most of the limitations we have, and what we think is necessary and so on should be done away with. If children have been shown to usually be more mentally healthy and balanced than parents, then why not make them more like equals? I think our society should be very different. I am opinionated on this matter.

About being taught things that you have not chosen or decided are correct, I say this is also teaching children lots of things that are...not the best, and the problem is we are arguing ideologies at this point, and we are arguing what is right. We are arguing philosophy. You are right, and I agree with you, although the best expression of that I can think of is "I wish things were better." I can only give my own experience that I have been taught things that were not true, and have had to get through a lot of stuff to come to what felt true to me. A guiding reason would be that since, as you say, and I believe to be true, all of our ideas on all of the concepts we have created we have because we have been taught them, then they are all questionable, open to question and refinement- even our notion of language. And that notion has been challenged a long time ago, but it's hard to spread that message, and hard to explain, and it rarely comes off well. But I think there's value in it, and I think it's worthy to be considered.

As you say, rambling. :)

[Derringer]

The first question that I want to ask is: are we pre-wired at birth to think a certain way, to desire certain things, and to behave with certain characteristics, unique to our species?


We desire our mother. Goin' all Lacan, we desire aesthetics to return us to the characteristics of the womb: that is we desire security, comfort and entertainment.


Clearly social conditioning has always been an integral part of established civilizations; and with this tool, their governments, economy, religion etc. have been solidified. By what other way could you make an entire population conform to singular ideas?


Not possible, but not a bad thing either. Otherwise people will never learn things like to stop at stop signs or to better yourself through education.



If all of our ideas on religion, ethics, morality, business, success, sex, racism, solitude, fear, individualism, dating, intolerance, etc. are derived from social conditioning, is there anything left of our innate human behavior?


Yes. All of those things involve the aesthetics of comfort and security.



While social conditioning may be important in maintaining the stability of an economy, I think that it has rather a negative effect on the individual. (However, if that individual didn’t realize that he/she is being conditioned to believe something, I suppose he/she wouldn’t feel too strongly one way or another.) Rambling aside, I leave it open to discussion.

I think social conditioning is necessary for stability, but I do understand what you are saying. To go all Catcher in the Rye, some people are phonies. Watch the tv show the Hills and they really don't think about how they act whatsoever. Or possibly that is me being immature. Whatever. Aside from my nonsense, I would recommend you read the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard, who has somewhat similar concerns as you : life is just a series of signs and orders for Baudrillard.

[Orpheus]

"We desire our mother. Goin' all Lacan, we desire aesthetics to return us to the characteristics of the womb: that is we desire security, comfort and entertainment. "

You seem to be jumping to a lot of conclusions here without using any kind of reasoning. I'm quite certain that I do not desire my mother. I rather despise her. And the desire for security, comfort, and entertainment are all socially conditioned. I reject the idea of security and comfort. In fact, I refuse to take a job where I am told how much my time is worth, or to depend on some pension and look forward to a quiet retirement. I happen to move from place to place every 6-12 months to avoid becoming too comfortable in any one place. And the only concept of entertainment that we have is that which has been given to us.

"Not possible, but not a bad thing either. Otherwise people will never learn things like to stop at stop signs or to better yourself through education. "

Yes, but bettering yourself through a socially conditioned education is no better. The problem lies with what is being taught in schools. Education systems teach people to be good employees so that they can live comfortable little lives, have their families, houses, cars, and conform to the lie that is the "American Dream."

"I think social conditioning is necessary for stability, but I do understand what you are saying. To go all Catcher in the Rye, some people are phonies. Watch the tv show the Hills and they really don't think about how they act whatsoever. Or possibly that is me being immature. Whatever. Aside from my nonsense, I would recommend you read the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard, who has somewhat similar concerns as you : life is just a series of signs and orders for Baudrillard."

I would go a little further and say that all people are phonies, including myself. We all where a certain facade when dealing in society, with unfamiliar people. An example of this would be the clothes that we wear. Imagine a business executive, a celebrity, rockstar, model, whoever would be considered by society to be upper-class, and now imagine that they were all just wearing a plain t-shirt and jeans and no make up. Their image would be shattered.

The consumption of clothing in the western world is one of the most widely spread ideas. It's rather funny actually. When our clothes become faded or out of style, it is considered normal to go out and purchase new clothes, when in fact the clothes that you had still serve their purpose.

Another that I find pretty hilarious the purchasing of bottled water over the use of perfectly good tap water.