Suicide?

[Pensive]

Unemployment, illness, poverty, broken heart, rape, hatred for people, and perhaps more can lead to this act. Some literary figures who tried to give hope to other people with their writing have themselves committed this act sadly. Bravest of people have been forced to bend their knees in front of this thing we call 'suicide'.

What are your thoughts about it? Do you think it's the right thing to do - taking your life away when you can no longer bear it? Do you think there are conditions in which it's the last solution? If, then what? Like illness? Or are you strongly against it? Should it be stopped? Is there any way to stop it? Would you like to share your ideas about that?

It's a very serious issue, and I hope to hear your thoughts about it without violating any forum rules.

[Granny5]

I recently had a very good friend commit suicide. He was very strong in his Christian belief. I know that for him to do this thing he was ill with dispaire and couldn't see any way to live with his pain. We all hurt sometimes but I would hope that everything/anything could get better in time. But if I were to become terminally ill, or lose my mind, I believe that, if I couldn't do the deed, one of my children would help me by leaving enough pills out for me. I don't want to put my children through what I went through with my Mother's illness (cancer) or what my family is going through now with my inlaw (insane). If I can't be myself, I'd rather not be. It may be selfish and it may be "wrong" but it would be the right thing to do in my case. I don't believe that suicide is eternal damnation. I think, in some cases, it is the only solution.

[BlueSkyGB]

This subject hits very close to home for me and some experiences I've had.
It has brought up some memories that are very tough to explain..
will think awhile and will post a coherent message later in this thread.
But for now lets just say, I understand some of the reasons why a person would choose this option.

[optimisticnad]

(ok just some random thoughts)

I think its a very poignant issue and you've both raised important issues. Im always interested in why people act the way do but in this case im not specualting on the individual who commits suicide but rather humanity as a whole and whats wrong or missing that someone would be driven to this. I think many of us here have little hope in humanity as it is, which is increasingly diminishing over the years anyway. I wonder how much the environment around is to blame, or 'fate'? Because I've always thought that when a person is driven to such a desperate 'solution' he/she doesn't just wake up one day and decide to this, its a progress, it leads to that day and its usually because of the people around. If we can make someone take their own lives then i think we need a way to prevent it from happening. Having said this each case is unique an its easy to pass judgement when you've never been in the same situation.

the issue of it being 'wrong' is a complicated issue. define wrong for starters. it implies some sort of morals and ethics, which today's society is devoid of.

Granny5, above writes


I don't believe that suicide is eternal damnation. I think, in some cases, it is the only solution.

I'm confused by the phrase 'eternal damnation', do you have any beliefs about life after death? Or are you saying you don't have any beliefs regarding life after death and therefore suicide isnt 'eternal damnation'? From my own experiences suicide is an issue I find hard to reconcile with my beliefs.
As for it being the only solution, I'm sorry but I strongly disagree. I can understand and sympathise why people might feel like this but I dont think we understand the maginitude of what we're doing and saying when we say suicide is a solution, and worse yet, the ONLY solution. Taking your own life, most often painfully, is a SOLUTION? I prefer the word 'answer'. Solution sounds definite and universal. Suicide isn't. Im hoping an 'answer' does the opposite and raises further questions: whose asking who? because thats what it comes down to, the individuals involved.

[kathycf]

This subject hits very close to home for me and some experiences I've had.
It has brought up some memories that are very tough to explain..

A hard subject for me too...

I think in cases of terminal illness when suffering is involved that suicide should be an option for those who don't wish to prolong their suffering. Very hard to discuss though. I think sometimes people in despair think of suicide not necessarily because they wish to die, but death seems a way to relieve the suffering and I think sometimes people just want the pain (emotional or physical) to stop and suicide becomes an option then.

Of course I am not saying that suicide could or should be an option, but as BlueSky says....I can understand why people contemplate it.

[BlueSkyGB]

A hard subject for me too...

I think sometimes people in despair think of suicide not necessarily because they wish to die, but death seems a way to relieve the suffering and I think sometimes people just want the pain (emotional or physical) to stop and suicide becomes an option then.

Of course I am not saying that suicide could or should be an option, but as BlueSky says....I can understand why people contemplate it.

I could not have said it better...thanks Kathy:)
Maybe someday I will be able to more fully talk about this subject objectively.

[manolia]

This subject hits very close to home for me and some experiences I've had.
It has brought up some memories that are very tough to explain..
will think awhile and will post a coherent message later in this thread.
But for now lets just say, I understand some of the reasons why a person would choose this option.

This subject hits very close to home, for me too..
I can very well understand a person who wants to end his/hers life under..certain circumstances..i also believe that it needs strength to atempt it ;)

Anyway, that's why friends are for, right?

[Lily Adams]

But if I were to become terminally ill, or lose my mind, I believe that, if I couldn't do the deed, one of my children would help me by leaving enough pills out for me. I don't want to put my children through what I went through with my Mother's illness (cancer) or what my family is going through now with my inlaw (insane). If I can't be myself, I'd rather not be. It may be selfish and it may be "wrong" but it would be the right thing to do in my case. I don't believe that suicide is eternal damnation. I think, in some cases, it is the only solution.

Thank you. This is exactly how I feel. I mean, why cause pain to the people who have to take care of you while you're dying? Like the whole "vegetable state" thing. The person is probably suffering and doesn't know who they are. It's very sad. I think that, if you're going through depression, please wait before you go to drastic measures. Everyone has gone through painfully sad points in their life, so you're not alone. Just wait a while. It helps even more to find someone to talk to. :)

Suicide is a very complicated thing and it depends on the circumstances, really. Like Kathy says, it's "very hard to discuss". It is really, really drastic, though, obviously. Very sad. :(

[rabid reader]

I am of the belief that you should have the freedom to live and you have the freedom to die. If you wish not to live anymore I would not be your friend if I denied that of you. I mean if life is so painful (be it illness or depression) who are we to say you MUST suffer and hope that maybe a drunk driver can take you out for a release from your suffering. And I don't think it matters much if they are lucid or not, the whole idea of consciousness is so sketchy that I cannot ever imagine any person can even firmly decipher between a insanity and determination (I mean if someone is determined to die most of us would think they were insane anyway so being lucid of mind really shouldn't factor in) what I have problems with is people deciding for other people that they want to die. Like that guy in Saskatoon who put a bullet in the head of his mentally challenged daughter, basically deciding that she didn't want to live, for her.

[MaryLupin]

Because I think that once a person's brain is dead they are no more...that is there is no survival after death, the real consideration for the person who might consider suicide is those they leave behind. People always underestimate the impact his or her death will have on those around them. I have known several people who were either suicides themselves or family members or loved ones of suicides. I have never known one person left behind to get over it. Not one. Now that doesn't mean a person doesn't have a right to take their life if they so choose. I think they do. It is their life regardless of what the law might say. However, a person's life is not free of encumbrance. We all live because of the work and love other people have put into us. So I think we owe those other people some thought before such a decision is made.

I had a friend who became a suicide crisis counselor. Her reason was that her husband had killed himself by blowing himself up inside their house. He took everything on his way out. I don't know if he meant to hurt her or whether in his despair he just didn't think about anyone but himself. However, the upshot was that she and her children now face a reality where the man that was supposed to love them destroyed their family. Also, once a family member commits suicide other family members (i.e. the children or siblings) are much more likely to do the same. That is a strong legacy and one that bears thinking on before committing to.

This same friend said to me once that at the moment when your foot is over the ledge and you are about to jump is the moment of greatest possible change in your life. But it takes a wrench. One must move one's attention from the self to the other. And that is not always possible.

[JBI]

There is nothing wrong with suicide in itself, just the reasoning behind it. For instance, suicide in some cases (I.E. euthanasia) can be seen as a good thing in my mind (people are suffering, might as well make them feel better) but something like killing yourself because you have chemical imbalances from medicines is in my mind wrong.

Instead of shouting out against suicide, people should just shout out against the things that lead to suicide.

[Pensive]

First of all I am really sorry to all those who got disturbed by this thread. I have not personally come across such a case (and I really really hope I don't) but you get to find them in newspapers everyday! And it hurts.

Someone in this thread mentioned something about the reasons; it depends on why a person wants to commit suicide and some cases are acceptable while others aren't. I think I agree with that. For example a person in another country who has got secrets about his country or for the sake of saving many people. Some self-sacrificing people do this for the sake of that. But as for the illness, I am not really sure.

But what about those perfectly healthy (even young) people who are ready to commit it because of domestic/relationships reasons? I can also understand (if not much at least a little bit) what can lead a person to want to do this. But perhaps they have got a better life ahead?

And like MaryLupin has pointed out, we owe others as well. So is this thinking that our life is our life, we would end it if we want to, really leading us somewhere? People take sleeping pills on reasons like not getting married to the person they love. And then they forget the ten others who love them. We can't stop committing suicide for such reasons if we don't have a will-power and the will-power would only come to us if we realise what is wrong for us and what is not. If we say it's right, aren't we encouraging thousands of such people to lose their will-power? Just a question.


Instead of shouting out against suicide, people should just shout out against the things that lead to suicide.

Yes, prevention is better than cure but it doesn't mean we shall ignore the cure. And tell me who is not against the reasons for suicide? In most of the cases, I am and I am sure most of the people here are! Unemployment and poverty and a tense home-life is what most of the people can be against!

[stephofthenight]

sucide. i will try to do this without crying.

because many have lost people to suicide, but i dont know how many other then one have tired it i will try my best to ecplain

first there are no words to express how sorry i am to those who live with the hollowness of the loss of a friend or loved one to this horrible act. because that void can be stitched over but never filled completlyl.

some reasons are medication, home issues, dissapointment and always thinking that there hurting others,friends,family,depression,numbness and concilers....

atempt one. the knife trick...
age.9
reason...well ill never realy know why, i think it had to do with my parents telling me they hated me...unfortuanatly i passed out when i say my blood...

attempt two. the gun....
age. 11
reason....this time was becuase i was falling behind in school and life, i thought i was the fattest most hideous person on the planed and no one would notice if i disapeard, but the gun didnt go off and i didnt have the guts to pull the trigger the second time

attempt three. the asprin coctail
age. 12
reason. boyfriend had killed himself and iw as going to join him no matter what. but the stupid ambulance pumped my stomach and i live still \

i live a little while fine and all then the nightmares start back and i tried two more times just becasue i didnt fill the pain, i didnt care if i died but that wasnt my intentions i just wanted to feel something, anything. but i didnt. i got into drugs and ddrinking partying and that scene and found that it was like a game see who can cut the deepest...that lead to ward visit one

the next suicide was after iw as placed in the ward they took the only thing precious to me, the necklace he had given me before he died i had never taken it off and well lets just say i went phyco, and that night i used the sheets and tried to hang myself...but door checks found me passed out...
and then the latest, im the bigest dissapoinment trip lead me to my last attemt when i turened 15 on my birthday i was trying to make it look like an acident, but they had taen all my sharps, so i simply broke a window and jamed the glass in my wrist as hard as i could it failed as well, many councilers and therpist have seen me and they always recoment my parents to someone else, im wiating when one day they will wise up and simply tell them taht i hate the medication, and that if they would stop saying im the biggest mistake myabe i wouldnt feel that way personaly councilers are evil sob's in my opinion i m sorry to anyone who is that profession,...and then there is always the confusion between cutters and sucidal...cutter and i will shamefully admit that i am one, are people addicted to pain or who are just trying to feel the pain...althou they realy dont care if they die, that isnt there purpose in life. they also try and hide there scars and wounds from people not wanting them hurt. where as a sucidal person doenst care and doesnt think about hurting other people they are past that...

honestly i think anyone who choese suicide is a coward it only took me a million attempts to find that out, face your life, insted of leaving your friends to deal with there demons and yours...everyone has a past, everyone has a history...but some people dont have a future becasue they cant handle life...

im sorry if i offend i know this is a realy raw subject and that its like rippping a bandaid off a cut and rubbing salt in it and for that im sorry
steph

[rabid reader]

steph in many cultures it is considered one of the highest honours to take your own life, when you feel as though you have outlived your purpose. I read an article about how the Japanese government wanted to censor their history texts to write over the Samurai tradition of suicide at failure, because suicide had been such an epidemic among their youth from ages 15-25.

Many people view the act differently. I mean you can see suicide as cowardly, and I know you have a more intimate relationship with such an act as I do, I only know I had an ex-g/f who had tried and failed. But I never judged her for it. I think any person who does not want to live, shouldn't be forced to live. It doesn't seem right in any occasion.

[Pendragon]

A poem I wrote about an actual event, and if I said the name of the boyfriend, I would bet any of you would know who this is. But the privacy remains:

Legacy

My mind returns again and again
to the stark photograph
of a pretty young woman
wearing only her underwear,
her body smeared with her own blood,
slumped beneath a sink beside a toilet
in a dingy hotel bathroom.
She was not quite twenty-one.
Murder? Suicide?
The police were never really sure
until her equally youthful boyfriend also died.
The death might have been ruled accidental
except for the hastily scrawled notes in his pockets:
“We had a pact. I must keep up my end.
Bury me beside my baby.”
Now, when life seems unbearable,
and the Specter of Suicide taunts me from the shadows,
I stop and think:
Is this what I want to leave behind?

D.L. Harris
© 1997

[MaryLupin]

You know another thing that is said about suicide is that it is often motivated internally (whatever the conscious reasons) by suppressed rage. Rage at, for example, those who are supposed to treat one with respect and love and don't. Rage at, as another example, ourselves for not being able to live painlessly and gracefully...rage at being lonely, ugly and clumsy.

I read this beautiful essay by Natalie Goldberg called When the Candle is Blown Out (http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1439&Itemid=243). It is about death and enlightenment and pain. It is a brilliant little piece of writing coming to its "crisis" around a table where Katagiri Roshi and Natalie Goldberg are talking about loneliness and he asks her a question.

I was always told that the right question is far more important than the right answer. This essay is a good example.

[formality hater]

Bravest of people have been forced to bend their knees in front of this thing we call 'suicide'.


I think suicide is an act of cowardice.Life is already too short and we often find ourselves complaining about the pace of time.You sleep at night and wake up to find a new morning.If the gravest of problems block your way and you think of this option,just ask yourself:If it really is the end of the world for me,I should have a heart attack!
If the only solution seems to be death then why don't we die on the spot?This means that the only OBVIOUS solution is death.One should look for the hidden ones!I think thats the key of prevention!

[stephofthenight]

formality your right

[Pensive]

Thanks all for your comments. And stephofthenight, I am glad you have started to think that suicide is not the solution of your problems! I hope you get true happiness. :)


I think suicide is an act of cowardice.Life is already too short and we often find ourselves complaining about the pace of time.You sleep at night and wake up to find a new morning.If the gravest of problems block your way and you think of this option,just ask yourself:If it really is the end of the world for me,I should have a heart attack!
If the only solution seems to be death then why don't we die on the spot?This means that the only OBVIOUS solution is death.One should look for the hidden ones!I think thats the key of prevention!

By the sentence 'Bravest of people have been forced to bend their knees in front of this thing we call 'suicide' I didn't mean that committing suicide is an act of bravery but that even those of people who have faced challenges in their lives fearlessly sometimes get to face a point in the life when they find themselves choosing this path.

And yes, I too think in most cases, it's cowardice. You are afraid of life and you want to end it. But there are some cases in which I rather consider it a very brave act. I would take an example of a national hero, a soldier called Rashid Minhas. He was a pilot and was going for a flight, and in his plane there were important secrets related to the whole nation. His commander I think in the middle of the flight tried to force him to move the direction of the plane to some other side. He had no other choice but to turn the plane towards the earth and the plane crashed but the commander (agent of some other country) couldn't get the information. I think the world is full of such people who chose to end their own life for others' good, it might be an insult to their memory or disencouragement to others who think like them to think they did something cowardly.

[NikolaiI]

This is true, and at times suicide has been an act of protest, as when some Buddhist monks set themselves on fire in demonstrations in Vietnam in the 60's. Nikolai Gogol died of starvation during fasting. Gandhi and anyone doing a hunger strike as a protest could well die of starvation. Jesus could have died in the wilderness during his 40 day fast, and don't forget that any act of asceticism could easily end in suicide. Nietzsche called ascetics "preachers of death," and was very much against it. They say even Socrates wanted to die.

Herman Hesse in Steppenwolf refers to people who will most likely end their life in suicide as 'suicides'. His main character is one such person, and he talks about suicides for a few pages. He says there is a certain kind of suicide that knows he is a suicide and takes strength in it, knowing that he can end the pain any time he wants. The main character is one of those. I actually haven't read the book, though I want to; what I read was excerpts in a book on existentialism.

Just my thoughts on suicide. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, although it's so overwhelmingly viewed so that if you killed yourself you would always be judged as someone who couldn't cope with life, was depressed, suicidal. I don't believe that suicides are past caring, unless they really don't have anyone who cares for them. Guilt is a huge factor, for the pain they will cause their loved ones. Hence the suicide note, an explanation, apology, trying to give something and ask for forgiveness. Unfortunately that can just be depressing - a dead person's note. And you can't make up for your life with anything that you could leave behind.

I think you have the right to die, but it's better not to. The ultimate peace of death cannot be denied to anyone, and it's painful to those you leave, so it's better not to. I don't agree with suicide, but I wouldn't judge or condemn anyone who chose it. If one of my family members committed suicide, I would forgive them and accept their choice. It'd be painful, but tears of grief bring a feeling of newness, and that is a good feeling. It would be sad that they would be gone, but if that's their wish it's not my right to make them stay.

[RobinHood3000]

I think that if a person is able-bodied and has no desire to live, he/she might as well do something for somebody else. Just a thought. Call an ambulance beforehand if somebody needs the organs. Don't ruin them with pills so someone else can use them. Heck, strap on a cape and cowl and die stopping a bank robbery. Something!

[Pensive]

I think that if a person is able-bodied and has no desire to live, he/she might as well do something for somebody else. Just a thought. Call an ambulance beforehand if somebody needs the organs. Don't ruin them with pills so someone else can use them. Heck, strap on a cape and cowl and die stopping a bank robbery. Something!

Everyone doesn't think RobinHood-ishly!

[the silent x]

i try to take a positive outlook on life, if my dad were to say that he hated me, i would think to myself, "well at least he isn't hitting me" then if he did, i would think, "well, eventually i'll snap and go crazy on him, or i'll die and won't have to be added in on the list of suicidals"

i've never actually tried to commit suicide, but i did think about it almost everyday in highschool, then i shot a gun at a clay pigeon with my father and haven't touched a real gun since, can't stand them. didn't know about the wrist thing and even when i did, i was afraid of the pain it would bring, and i didn't know about the pills, also when i did find out about them, i realized how inconsistent they were and i didn't want my family to think, "oh, i can't tell him this because he might take it the wrong way and try to kill himself" i like the background, not the fore ground i would have entered had i tried and failed. so fear actually saved me.

as for the counselors, i don't like confiding secrets to anyone, a human being is just to weak of a safe to put my secrets in. my opinion is, if you are contemplating suicide, STOP!, step back, think about who will be affected, siblings, parents, the kid next door who rings your doorbell every day to see if you can hang out, the poor man on the street who you just gave ten cents to. then, think about everything in your life and try to find the good side of it, "i woke up two minutes before i have to leave for work, well, at least i still have a chance to get to work instead of oversleeping and completely missing work."
"i'm fat, at least i am not like a holocast victim who can't eat food at all."
then if you encounter at least one good thing, don't pull the trigger/cut your wrist/take the pills/etc... expound on that one good thing, and try to find another good thing.
and if you past all that and still want to take your own life think of us on litnet, i get really angry when someone writes a piece of work then suddenly stops, no more person for us to enjoy

[applepie]

You have a remarkably positive outlook on life Silent X. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who generally sees the world in this fashion. To say I never contemplated suicide would be a lie. I think everyone goes through this phase when they are a teenager. Did I ever actually try it, no. I could never bring myself to harm the others around me in this fashion. I also had first-hand experience at what it felt like to be hung. It was an accident, but that didn't make it any less real. Just trust me on this... If you are going to film a movie with your friends about the Salem Witch trials where someone is hung, don't tie a real noose. It is a bad idea in the first place, but if you do tie a real one, don't follow said stupidity by tripping and tightening it around your neck. Finally, don't have friends who are more concerned about not cutting your hair than they are with cutting off the rope which is keeping you from breathing. Broken blood vessels in the eyes are not an attractive look, and it may have your school suspicious that you are being abused.

On a more serious note, I know how it feels to be on the recieving end when someone kills themselves. My mother's parents killed themselves this past Valentines Day. I was lucky to not be close to them, but I saw how it hurt my mother and her siblings. Some of my cousins were also quite close with them, and it is difficult to explain to a young child that Grandma and Grandpa shot themselves. Though I can see why some people feel the need to end their lives, I generally think that it is selfish on their part. As in the case with my Mom's parents, they sent the message to their children that they were not important enough to live for. It just causes too much hurt to those who live to make it an acceptable practice.

[Pensive]

You have a remarkably positive outlook on life Silent X. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who generally sees the world in this fashion.

Yes, to look at the brighter side of things in this world is rather good.

[Scheherazade]

I wonder if there is anyone who has not entertained the thought of committing suicide even though for a fleeting second... even though not very seriously.

[Pensive]

I wonder if there is anyone who has not entertained the thought of committing suicide even though for a fleeting second... even though not very seriously.

I don't think considering it would have been better if I were not born in this world would be included in the thought of committing suicide. Very rarely, I have wished that. But yes, I have never thought about committing suicide, yet. Who knows what the next moment brings though! *hopes for the best*

[NikolaiI]

I don't like how suicide is always considered inseparable from depression, mental illness or inability to cope. After all, it could just as easily result from overwhelming curiosity or a strong desire for peace. Just because you want the peace of death doesn't mean you find this life unbearable, it just means that you want to go to sleep and not wake up. I would say a suicide is not necessarily depressed or mentally unable to cope. Having said this, I don't mean to make light of it, or praise it in any way. I don't think it's a good thing, or a solution, but maybe a lot of suicides don't even see life as a problem?

[the silent x]

ever notice how sometimes, people who commit sucide immediately go from "people" to "suicides"? i'm not trying to be mean or anything, but has anyone noticed it, i have in my school and work

[mtpspur]

ever notice how sometimes, people who commit sucide immediately go from "people" to "suicides"? i'm not trying to be mean or anything, but has anyone noticed it, i have in my school and work

It's a coping mechanism people use to distance themslves. Can be a buffer from the shock of loss or a manner of trying to understand the problems said person was having and not get too worked up. To me the horrorwould be if a person kiled themselves and everything understood.

[zealouza]

actually,we cannot condemn this people who committed suicide, as you have said this is commonly done by the famous person who advocated the alleviation of the people like about unemployment etc... maybe this is their way or perhaps their sacrifice to the mankind so that their philosophies would have a great impact. Imagine if they don't do this act don't you think their studies would be as famous if they don't kill themselves?

[formality hater]

And yes, I too think in most cases, it's cowardice. You are afraid of life and you want to end it. But there are some cases in which I rather consider it a very brave act. I would take an example of a national hero, a soldier called Rashid Minhas. He was a pilot and was going for a flight, and in his plane there were important secrets related to the whole nation. His commander I think in the middle of the flight tried to force him to move the direction of the plane to some other side. He had no other choice but to turn the plane towards the earth and the plane crashed but the commander (agent of some other country) couldn't get the information. I think the world is full of such people who chose to end their own life for others' good, it might be an insult to their memory or disencouragement to others who think like them to think they did something cowardly.

I think you have got yourself confused between the terms :"suicide" and "life-sacrifice".There is a great difference between the two!

[Pensive]

I think you have got yourself confused between the terms :"suicide" and "life-sacrifice".There is a great difference between the two!

Nope, perhaps you are confused. Suicide means to kill oneself or terminate one's life intentionally, no matter what the reasons are or for what it is done. Many agents in another country if caught also do this, and I think it's even then considered a suicide. Though, yes, life-sacrifice for these people might be a better word to use but I don't think we can deny it being suicide. For example, look at people who do these suicide bombings. Perhaps some would consider it a life-sacrifice (even those who are against it would think of it as a sacrifice from that person) but it would still be called a 'suicide'. Wouldn't it?

[formality hater]

Nope, perhaps you are confused. Suicide means to kill oneself or terminate one's life intentionally, no matter what the reasons are or for what it is done. Many agents in another country if caught also do this, and I think it's even then considered a suicide. Though, yes, life-sacrifice for these people might be a better word to use but I don't think we can deny it being suicide. For example, look at people who do these suicide bombings. Perhaps some would consider it a life-sacrifice (even those who are against it would think of it as a sacrifice from that person) but it would still be called a 'suicide'. Wouldn't it?

Perhaps the example you gave did not fit in at all!I would not call "martyrdom" a suicide!

[Pensive]

Perhaps the example you gave did not fit in at all!I would not call "martyrdom" a suicide!

As I already mentioned, such words might be better to use in such a case but such a condition in all ways qualify as suicide considering that suicide means killing one's self intentionally.

Ah and here is something from wikipedia too:


From wikipedia:[edit] Causes of suicide

The suicide of Lucretia, a legendary rape victimSuicide poses a conundrum to sociobiologists: Why would one choose to eliminate oneself from the gene pool? Sociobiologists debate the ultimate adaptive advantage of suicidality, while at a proximate level of animal behaviour, no single factor has gained acceptance as a universal cause of suicide. Depression, however, is a common phenomenon amongst those who die by suicide.

Other factors that may be related are as follows (Note that this is not meant as a comprehensive list, but rather as a summary of notable causes):

Suffering (e.g. physical or emotional agony that is not correctable)
Stress (e.g. grief after the death of a loved one)
Crime (e.g. escaping judicial punishment and the dehumanisation and boredom of incarceration)
Mental illness and disability (e.g. depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, anxiety disorders or post traumatic stress disorder)
Catastrophic injury (e.g. paralysis, disfigurement, loss of limb)
Adverse environment (e.g. sexual abuse, domestic abuse, poverty, homelessness, bullying, social isolation)
Financial loss (e.g. loss of job/assets, debts)
Sacrificial reasons (e.g. a soldier throwing his body on a grenade)
Unresolved sexual issues (e.g. sexism, sexual orientation,[16] gender dysphoria, unrequited love, aftermath of a break up, involuntary celibacy, acquiring an incurable Sexually Transmitted Infection (HIV, Herpes, HPV))
To avoid shame or dishonour (e.g. the Bushido ideal, under which a disgraced samurai could regain his honor by performing seppuku)
Terrorism can also be a motive for suicide, especially when related to religion (e.g., suicide bombings)
Extreme nationalism (e.g. the Kamikaze, Selbstopfer, and Kaiten suicide weapons)
Philosophical belief that life has no inherent value (e.g. absurdism, pessimism, nihilism)
Religious cults (e.g. Heaven's Gate and Peoples Temple)

The point is that you are taking suicide as an offence as you think that only weak people can do it. Not that I disagree with you completely but I believe sometimes even it's an act of bravery like in this case.

[formality hater]

Well Pensive I think I should be quiet now as I can see You haven't understood my opinion about the matter:)NOT AT ALL!

[Pensive]

Well Pensive I think I should be quiet now as I can see You haven't understood my opinion about the matter:)NOT AT ALL!

I seriously can't understand how suicide can't be committed because of reasons related to self-sacrifice. And you seem not to be understanding why I think so. :) Yes, we shall better stop it, because all we would be doing then would be claiming that the other has not understood her/him well rather than having a friendly debate/discussion over it. :p

[NikolaiI]

Hm, I have to agree with Pensive: since sacrifice is one reason for suicide, therefore life-sacrifice is a type of suicide. We're saying cult-suicide and kaze suicide are both suicides, even though they aren't the same thing, or there's a difference.


actually,we cannot condemn this people who committed suicide, as you have said this is commonly done by the famous person who advocated the alleviation of the people like about unemployment etc... maybe this is their way or perhaps their sacrifice to the mankind so that their philosophies would have a great impact. Imagine if they don't do this act don't you think their studies would be as famous if they don't kill themselves?

I agree that we shouldn't condemn. I mean, nothing wrong with feeling anger during grief stages, but it shouldn't be the final conclusion. I'm interested in what philosophers killed themselves for fame. I can think of Socrates, and Gandhi did a hunger-strike, but I am ignorant of any others.

[Bakiryu]

It seems that so many famous people have committed suicide nowadays....

[hedbanger]

I think that, if there are still holocaust victims living today, a person can live through almost any kind of torment; taking your life is almost insulting to those that fought so hard for that same precious gift.

[formality hater]

I seriously can't understand how suicide can't be committed because of reasons related to self-sacrifice. And you seem not to be understanding why I think so. :) Yes, we shall better stop it, because all we would be doing then would be claiming that the other has not understood her/him well rather than having a friendly debate/discussion over it. :p

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[amanda_isabel]

random thoughts:

from a christian perspective, i think suicide should be stopped. suicde is to kill yourself, and how can be in any position to do that when we supposedly are not ours? from a christian point of view, we are God's, and therefore because we are not ours, we have no right to take away what is not ours. apart from that, suicide is usually because of problems. in christianity, it is said that God will never put you through what you cannot see through.. therefore, faith is needed.

and from a humanitarian point of view.. suicide is a widely spreading phenomenon that i think should be stopped. other coping mechanisms should be taught. but then again, to be able to kill yourself-or even seriously consider it-you've got to be medically out of your mind. the fact is, it is not normal to be considering suicide as any kind of option. man was made to fight for life til the end.

sorry i don't know if i'm making sense.

[stephofthenight]

suicide is poison to the religious community

[Bakiryu]

random thoughts:

from a Christian perspective, i think suicide should be stopped. suicide is to kill yourself, and how can be in any position to do that when we supposedly are not ours? from a Christian point of view, we are God's, and therefore because we are not ours, we have no right to take away what is not ours. apart from that, suicide is usually because of problems. in Christianity, it is said that God will never put you through what you cannot see through.. therefore, faith is needed.


Sometimes dead is better than life and besides, if there were a God he/she/it would not want us to suffer, right? Besides sometimes faith isn't enough and dead is the only answer to what is a truly depressing situation.

[rabid reader]

I think that, if there are still holocaust victims living today, a person can live through almost any kind of torment; taking your life is almost insulting to those that fought so hard for that same precious gift.

I think you are assuming that somehow these suicides owe you something. If I were to kill myself I would never even take into consideration your opinion of what that would make of me, to be completely honest. As there are 6.4 billion opinions in this world I have no emotional connection to you at all rendering your thoughts of cowardice irrelevant to me.

The irony of those who condemn suicide whether it be from the religious arguments or social arguments, is that many suicides are done as an escape from judgements laid upon them. For example the in a christian community a closet homosexual teenager has one of the highest rates for suicide outside Japan. Then after they commit suicide the same people who judged them in life then judge them in death, of course their judgements fall on deafened ears. To be completely honest the kid who was called "faggot" his whole life and was psychologically tortured through out his school career with no friend to help elevate their grievances, could careless that YOU consider them a coward after they, in their last defiance and stand of free will, chose to end their life. I think that it takes a whole different kind of bravery to end ones life. I know I have contemplated it myself but never had the guts to commit to it.



and from a humanitarian point of view.. suicide is a widely spreading phenomenon that i think should be stopped. other coping mechanisms should be taught. but then again, to be able to kill yourself-or even seriously consider it-you've got to be medically out of your mind. the fact is, it is not normal to be considering suicide as any kind of option. man was made to fight for life til the end.

sorry i don't know if i'm making sense.

I will not comment on your religious point of view as I find it futile as neither of us will benefit from that form of argumentation. I will say this I am of the opinion that mental instability is too lightly assigned to an individual. Getting to the point where it seems that people who approach different situations with fresh and new points of view are automatically labelled mentally unstable. For example, you automatically assume that someone who wishes to kill themseklf is "medically out of their mind," when I would argue that their mind may be healthy and are approaching death in a reasonable manner. If life is out of your control, and you have no power in it, the one thing you do have power over is if you live or die. There was a study I read in McLean's a few years back about the elevation of anorexia among raped women. The psychological theory behind such a case was that these women had no control in that situation but in starving their bodies they had control of what they ate. So sometimes suicide is not an exercise of the insane but freedom. It can also be down in pure curiosity, or an escape. If it is either, you cannot consider either mad could you? If you are curious about something what do you do? Do you experiment with it? If you are curious of death and wished to explore it, would suicide not then seem reasonable? Then suicide as an escape, is also quite reasonable as well. Imagine, trapped in a cell with a door. In the cell, there is advancing flames, and you are blistering and sizzling. You still don't take the door because you feel it immoral to escape this pain and suffering. You sit there as the flames engulf you in misery and pain, looking at that door, longingly but in fear. The real question is, who is more mentally unstable, the person who chose suffering over relief or the person who chooses freedom?

[NikolaiI]

I ask: what if Jesus had died during 40 day fast/meditation in the wilderness? I know that is a useless 'what if' question, so: what if someone died in imitation of him? I ask this in seriousness. Nikolai Gogol was one person who died during religious fasting under sway of a 'fanatical' priest. I also ask, what if Gandhi had died during self-starvation protest?

So I ask, do different kinds of suicide mean different things?

[kiz_paws]

The irony of those who condemn religion, whether it be from the religious arguments or social arguments, is that many suicides are done as an escape from judgements laid upon them. For example the in a christian community a closet homosexual teenager has one of the highest rates for suicide outside Japan. Then after they commit suicide the same people who judged them in life then judge them in death, of course their judgements fall on deafened ears. To be completely honest the kid who was called "faggot" his whole life and was psychologically tortured through out his school career with no friend to help elevate their grievances, could careless that YOU consider them a coward after they, in their last defiance and stand of free will, chose to end their life. I think that it takes a whole different kind of bravery to end ones life. I know I have contemplated it myself but never had the guts to commit to it.

Wow. Though I don't perceive suicide to be any kind of an answer, and have yet to get a grip on my true feelings of such a topic (went through an incident of a friend, that is all I shall say), I found the above quote very thought provoking, in particular, the phrase I set in Bold print. Thank you for your eloquence. :)

Also, mention was made of Nikolai Gogol dying due to the religious fast he set upon himself (that was his choice, btw, but yes -- he was the follower of a very fanatical priest) .... what a loss to mankind. He also burned lots of his work, including vast sections of the book that I am presently reading.... but that is going beyond the scope of this conversation.

Interesting thoughts, everyone.

[Countess]

Did Jesus commit suicide by dying on the cross to save our sins? I've often wondered about it but never asked the question. He could have called down the angels (as it was said) but chose to allow himself to be crucified.

*********

The problem with suicide is the inherent dichotomy that exists between reason and morality (call it science / religion; whatever - it's all the same). In the face of suffering, suicide is quite a reasonable solution. The world is an evil and unfair place; you hurt beyond your means. What is the solution? Death. Death alleviates pain - it makes perfect sense.

However, this logic falls apart when you couch it in morality, that is, a belief in an objective truth or universal imperatives like good / evil. "What about the survivors?" is an ethical question. "What about the soul after suicide? If the Bible says "Those who are saved WILL persevere; then doesn't it imply if one doesn't persevere perhaps one isn't saved at all? Does God have mercy in these situations? Can I be absolutely certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I arrive on the other side of death, I will be greeted by Saint Peter with open arms?"

For a reasonable person, the answer is simple: suicide is logical and a rational answer. For a moral person, the answer is also simple: think of the survivors and the effect it will have on them. For a person of faith, the answer is simple: God made us; we have no right to kill ourselves; those who commit suicide may go to hell so it isn't an answer.

But those who walk between both worlds - between reason and humanitarianism / spirituality - are perhaps the most tormented of all, for at once they recognize the inherent paradox between the logical solution and God's edict / humanity's answer. So, they often want to die and live simultaneously, and are torn and in a state of flux between ending their life and continuing it.

[hedbanger]

I think you are assuming that somehow these suicides owe you something. If I were to kill myself I would never even take into consideration your opinion of what that would make of me, to be completely honest. As there are 6.4 billion opinions in this world I have no emotional connection to you at all rendering your thoughts of cowardice irrelevant to me.


I don't assume anything.

[NikolaiI]

Hm I didn't mean when Jesus died on the cross, I mean when he went into the wilderness to pray for 40 days and nights, before that. Supposedly, it's hard to survive. And what about when one of his disciples begged him to eat, and he said "I am living on a different bread," or something like that. If I have it wrong, someone let me know; I don't bite.

I've never tried to kill myself in any traditional way...people can die of not eating, so that's what I thought I'd do, but I didn't wan to leave...myself for anyone to find, so I would go somewhere isolated...somehow it was never isolated enough. At one point in my life, I remember, a specific moment when I decided I wanted to...that was years ago, and I guess thanks to my low-impact methods, I'm still here...and actually fasting is good for your health, so if you survive you're healthier(!) woo! lol...but I understand suicide.. I agree with what someone said about not condemning, and rabid about judging...it's so stupid to judge. I mean to say they're past caring- that's just ignorant.

Nietzsche said ascetics were preachers of death, but people usually associate Jesus with life, so I am interested in what people think if you died copying Jesus' actions.

Another thing I am interested in is when Arjuna says "I wish I would die right now, since I see you clearly; if I live on I could die in some moment of confusion, etc."