Forbidden love

[Avalive]

Gay Marriage
in MA.

[WX6[ck]]

Eh? Are you saying that your for gay marriage or against?

[evulik]

in any case, I guess it is ok... freedom of love... I would be dissapointed and sad of somebody was against my boyfriend (expect my father, but I take that as normal, cannot suit parents : :brickwall )

so you are for or against? :confused:

[amuse]

for. love is love.

btw ava, it's not! "forbidden" in MA anymore.

[Sancho]

ditto. Thanks amuse.

Seems to me those who are against it are using the same crummy arguments that the anti interracial marriage goons used last century.

[evulik]

hello amuse,
I would know that it is no longer forbidden in MA, if I knew what MA actually is, I guess :angel: there are words, shortcuts that you people use that non-native speaker has problems... (at least I do hihi)

but to the point... it would be fair if it was ok around the world... I mean they do nothing wrong...

Author: Samuel Smiles
We learn wisdom from failure much more than from success. We often discover what will do by finding out what will not do; and probably he who never made a mistake never made a discovery.
so... what is MA? (forgive me if I sound silly...) :)

[ravana]

I don't know what is MA and have no any idea.
If it's not forbidden in MA any more, but still is in religion. I can't accept it, but I have such friend and I never judge him for that. (And don't stop loving him) I think the one who can or must do it is GOD.

I can't call this as love. I take it as strange interest, like nudism

[amuse]

hi evulik. :)
to clarify, "MA" is the state of Massachusets in the US.

[amuse]

i would like to share a dream i had some years ago. i haven't any clue as to why i dreamed it, but for what it's worth, here it is:

i saw a man and a woman who loved each other dearly. they died. the man was the focus in the next scene: they had been reborn, and though he still loved this "woman" as much as ever, she was now a "man." he couldn't accept that this soul, this individual with whom he still had such a great love bond, was now in a form he found confusing and abhorrent to himself, as he still wanted to be together. he crouched down to all fours and ran off into a thick vegetative, jungle-like area.

that's all i remember, except of course for how i felt when i woke up. a little sad for his pain and shortsightedness.

[kilted exile]

I enjoy arguing with people who are opposed to gay marriage: especially when they say something dumb like "It goes against everything I believe in.", because it provides the opportunity to tell them that they are against equality.

[evulik]

thanks amuse :)

as for ravana... well I take and accept that according to you it is against religion, except that to me religion is about love, not about judgment, so those that explain and understand religion like this are wrong... (I attended church and have all sacraments possible).... there is said "respect all people" regardless of race, age, beliefs, sexual orientation etc... this is religion to me that I carry within me... maybe I am wrong, but to me we all are equal... no matter of any differences we all are pretty much the same... did religion in Bible actually stated that there could not be love between two men or women?
but it is very nice that you push your feelings and still like your friend. Most people would not... :thumbs_up

[ravana]

I don't like arguing and never try to do it. I just put my opinion. I agree with equality and think everyone must think in his own way. But it doesn't mean that I must agree with every thought or opinion. I don't accept nudism, prostitution and other such stuffs. I take all these as strange interests. And there are other terrible interests such as sadism, masochism, terrorism, and cannibalism.
What is religion for me? I got know its meaning at my 19 age. At school I took Darwin’s opinion and was taught that all religions are stuff and nonsense. I read Koran and found it combines with my way of life. And understood that what is written in sacred books is only for our benefit. So why I mustn't take it as judgement?
I haven’t read Bible yet. Inshaallah I will soon. But In Koran is written that there could not be love between two men or women.

[evulik]

well you are right here. I do not like arguying either, since arguying is just another form of making people think the way you do...
I accept your view and I am glad that despite other views are different from yours, you accept them also...well, if your religion says it's wrong and you believe it, all other words would be a waste of time. I was taught to respect people and their opinion. and I respect you....

[ravana]

Thanks, evulik!
If you don’t mind I just want to add something.
I'm an educated person and of course wouldn't accept any item I met in Koran not thought over it as properly. For an example, I actually accepted the item of forbidden to eat pork because of medicine discovered that it is harmful for health (by the way it's forbidden in Bible, too-met in Russian magazine)
I think the fact that Homosexualism is one of the reason of AIDS made me accept that item according to that stuff.

[evulik]

any time...
with this scientific approach you make things really reasonable :) this AIDS stuff made me think a lot in past and still does... it is horrible.
I was thinking, I do not actually know anybody that is gay or lesbian.. at least I do not know about it. I have few suggestion who could be around me of this orientation but those people never made it public...
with Bible, I am not really expert on this issue, haven't been in church for years. as I say I have my religion within me...
and pork... I eat 80% just this hihi but this is because I live with my parents, so I must (should) accomodate to their kitchen... will change to chicken or pure vegetable once I am free... but as I am with them now, cannot change much things... althought I tried...
when speaking about MA, it was in yesterday's daily :) only I read papers one day later.. no time for it... so now I know. in connection to this there were some strikes in Poland.. and will be even bigger I suppose in June. They want to make there some sort of polish "gay" manifestation or something. People are strongly against... no wonder, poland is really religious country...

[ajoe]

I enjoy arguing with people who are opposed to gay marriage: especially when they say something dumb like "It goes against everything I believe in.", because it provides the opportunity to tell them that they are against equality.

Hey, you got me there. :P
I'm one of those people who are against gay marriage.
This is not to say I'm discriminating gay people, because I'm not. I believe that gay people can do as well as people who aren't gay and stuff, but I'm just for marriage between a man and a woman. It's okay for people to be gay and they don't need to hide their sexual orientation, but I also think if you're gay then you try not to be gay and be more "normal." If you can't, then that's too bad and I guess you just don't marry because to marry someone of the same sex is wrong. Okay, I'm saying contradictory stuff here and you probably won't get it, but I'm just making use of my freedom of speech here, so don't flame me. :)

[emily655321]

I'm not sure if I should reply and thereby further this discussion, because it's something that combines religion (which has its own thread) and Politics, the ultimate Forum Taboo. ;)

(First, just to clarify a couple things: the first person to bring AIDS to the USA happened to be a gay man, so the epidemic began among gay people, but it very soon spread to straight people as well. Anyone can give/catch the virus just as easily. Also, ancient Jewish law said that sex for any reason other than producing a child is wrong. Therefore the Old Testament has a list of sex acts that are forbidden. Most of them have to do with what a man can't do with his wife, but then it also says no sex with another man, with an animal, or with yourself. The point the Bible is making is that sex as an expression of love is a sin, whether you're gay or straight. And yes, I'm being snide. I know that's not the main point.)

But that said, I can't help being excited and proud that my state is the first in history to legally marry a gay couple. The idea of opposing homosexuality is an opinion that has always been mysterious to me. I don't know how I would feel if I was raised differently, though; most people where I live think there's nothing wrong with being gay. I have both gay and straight friends, and I don't really think about it. People just are the way they are, and either way is natural.

[verybaddmom]

I am with you on this Em.
i believe that people have a right to choose to do whatever they want, provided that they are not hurting anyone else in the process. i do realized that the definition of what "hurts" people is broad and subjective. however, i also believe that everyone has a right to their belief, the same as they have to right to a disbelief. therefore, same sex couples should have the right to express their love however they choose and opponents have the right to have their opinions heard. churches are free to decide for themselves if their interpretation of the scripture allows or disallows them to perform the marriage ceremony. this issue is then, not about religion (as the religion has a choice of whether or not to support and perform the ceremony) but about government and politics. therefore i have to stop talking now. hmph.

basically it boils down to this, for me: i disagree with any law that interferes with one's right to choose their behavior and lifestyle for themselves. That includes the issue surrounding the legalization of marijuana as much as the same sex marriage laws.

EDIT: oh, and im not an expert on the subject so correct me if i am wrong, but there are a few lessons from "sunday school" that kind of stuck with me. if i remember correctly, scripture suggests that humans are not permitted to judge their fellow humans. i believe that is the job reserved only for diety himself. also I understand that "free will" is an integral part of the Christian faith. how do these premises conflict with the ones presented by those who argue from a Christian religious perspective? the whole argument makes no sense to me.

[verybaddmom]

i just cant leave this alone, but, ajoe, i think it is totally unfair for you to expect that gay couples should "try not to be gay and be more 'normal.'". if you understand that normal is only defined by what the majority of society is doing, then you realize that normal can change when a majority of people change their beliefs. by this definition it was at one point normal to be a racist or a wife beater. I tell my son all the time that "normal is just a setting on our washing maching, designed to get the best clean into cotton blends." seriously, just because a majority of people think it's okay, does not mean its ethical or right. that would be bandwagon logic, and totally the opposite of critical thinking. there is no room for progress if our society takes that small minded view.

EDIT: addressing the AIDS issue? i think that is more a issue and plague on unhealthy lifesyles like drug abuse and promiscuity, regardless of sex of the promiscuous person or drug user. it is casual sex that has caused the epidemic, and if there is more casual sex among same sex couples, i believe the cause can be linked directly to the oppression of the majority. when it is socially unacceptable to have an open and loving relationship, it sure makes it terribly difficult to maintain one. ask anyone who is dating outside their race, or age group, to see a small example of the additional pressures that make successful relationships difficult.

[amuse]

was going to comment on "normal" but you did it far better than i, vbm.

[verybaddmom]

thank you As...
*takes a bow*

[ajoe]

http://www.addis-welt.de/smilie/smilie/mix/bad1.gif --> *ruminating*

I'll admit it: I'm the most ridiculously conservative, narrow-minded, and unrebellious teenager I know. I guess it's just the way I was raised. I came from the East, where everyone WAS narrow-minded. Though the East had becoming more and more "modernized" and more like the United States (at least where I came from), I grew up in a conservative society where we pretty much stuck to the traditional rules. If you don't follow the rules they tell you to stand at the corner and face the wall. At its worst, the teacher can make you drink urine or strip and run around a basketball court! (Of course, the teacher got in trouble when the local government found out--haHA!!) And that's how I became a conformist. And I'm too old now to get myself brainwashed.

edit: If you think me considering gay people not "normal" bad, how about people of my country who consider left-handed people not normal? :D

[verybaddmom]

i think that your edit about normalcy actually proves my point, ajoe. it is simply a socially constructed notion of behaviors or patterns that the majority of people engage in. normalcy and rightness are not mutually exclusive. left handedness is not something that one can choose, but because the majority of people are born to right handedness, does that make the southpaw abnormal? does it mean that there is something wrong with them? i dont believe that the hand that one writes with or throws a ball with is a reliable indicator of that person's worth or ability to contribute to society. the same rules, as far as i am concerned, should apply to gay persons.

[rocksea]

forbidden: pork
sorry for the reply being so longg, will talk abt the gay thing in next. lol.


For an example, I actually accepted the item of forbidden to eat pork because of medicine discovered that it is harmful for health (by the way it's forbidden in Bible, too-met in Russian magazine)


well this is what i found out.. (not totally my opinion of course but itz reading worth)

In the New Testament, St. Paul's main message about the Old Testament Law is that Law is sin. It is impossible for us to keep to all the 613 Mosaic Laws and so inevitably we sin. Therefore, Paul says, we must do away with the written law and instead the law must come from our hearts. He says that it doesn't matter what you eat, as long as you have faith in God. There's nothing wrong with keeping the kosher food laws, but it is not necessary. If you feel guilty eating pork, then don't do it, because that is a sin. But if you do not feel guilty, and this was true for the Gentiles who Paul was preaching too, it does not matter what you eat.

This sentiment is backed up by Jesus in Matthew's Gospel (New International Version)

Matthew 15:10-11
"Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' " "

And again in Matthew 15:16-20
""Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' " "

Both Jesus and Paul said that it did not matter what you ate which included pork. As has been said before, the Old Testament clearly states that pork is forbidden under the kosher laws which is why some Jewish people do not eat pork. Christian doctrine however, does not accept kosher food laws for the reasons noted above.

Well in the old testament there were laws forbidding pork. A careful examination of these laws will reveal that they were given more in the interests of good health than anything else. It is evident too that these health laws also included instructions for personal hygiene and methods of dealing with boils, leprosy and other maladies. Following these laws did also set the Jews apart from those around them. One thing one learns when exploring the Bible - God is very practical. There are some quite good medical reasons for following the food health laws. Here are some of them.

All 'clean' animals are ruminants. That is they have four stomachs. This ensures a much more thorough processing of food than is possible with one stomach, and less pollutants are stored in the flesh. It has also been discovered that ruminants are not subject to flesh worms. These can be acquired from eating the flesh of almost every other animal. The pig which got special mention as 'unclean' stores poisons in its body fat. A snake cannot kill a pig. The poison is just stored in the fat under the skin and is ingested by anything that subsequently eats that pig. Pigs love snakes - they suck them up like spaghetti.

Concerning the flesh of the pig. With today's hygienic methods of raising these animals it is unlikely they would carry the same risk as one raised in the wild, but consider this: the meat takes 4 days to digest in the bowel instead of 2 for 'clean' meats. Bowel cancer has been linked to excessive meat consumption and if the length of time spent in the bowel has anything to do with it then pork is twice as bad as beef.

Likewise the birds that are clean have an organ called a 'gizzard' which again permits the bird to process it's food more thoroughly.

Most of what we call 'sea food', prawns, crabs, shell fish etc. are filter feeders. What they do is clean up the pollution in the oceans and store it in their bodies. Oysters for instance thrive best downstream from sewerage outlets. When one eats these creatures the pollution becomes more concentrated in our own bodies. Calcium kidney stones for instance are often the result of over indulgence in these foods. Fish without scales, like sharks and catfish, are scavengers and are at the top of food chains. Their bodies will contain a much higher level of pollutants than creatures further down the chain. God’s advice concerning food notwithstanding, the bible makes it clear that the Christian has freedom in Christ to eat other foods.

[rocksea]

forbidden : gay

i feel we shudnt separate them as gays at all. all are humans and they may have different life style, different kinda genes, different measure of hormones.. it is to accept these lifestyle that we shud be doing. most of the gays i have met didnt opt such a lifestyle but they acquired it by nature. it is a pity that most of them are looked with contempt and are deprived of rights. even if someone choose such a lifestyle, as long as it doesnt interfere with the freedom of others i feel it is ok.

every man has his own religion, gandhi once told. you cant define everything happening around you with ur own religion. what you may consider true maybe false for someone else and vice versa. for me in india slurping while eating is considered bad. but here in japan you 'shud' slurp when u eat. likewise in country to country, religion to religion, community to community, person to person view points may change, life style may change. i feel even if we dont accept them into our own lives, we shud respect them.

[rocksea]

and after all, gay means happy :D

[den]

I'm wondering why Avalive posted this topic?

How do you feel about gay marriage?

While keeping this to non-political discussion is hard, and politics should stay out of people's love lives anyway :rolleyes: I'll add my 2cents worth and say anykind of love between two consenting adults should not be `forbidden'.

Maybe this should be moved to the Religion area?

[emily655321]

*wild applause for Rocksea*
Wow! I found all of that so wise. :D :nod: I agree completely.

I also agree with you, Den; why is this here? It's such a sensitive subject. I don't think Avalive was trying to stir up trouble. It's just a very topical issue right now -- this week will be remembered in history. And it's the type of thing I can't help responding to, but all the time feeling guilty and worried that I'm offending friends here who might feel differently. :confused:

[amuse]

em, how nice! i've yet to worry about offending mass numbers of people. whoops!! :D

i don't think it should be moved to the religious thread, as it's a social issue, but that's just me. then again, a lot of religious topics focus on social things.

[Lolita]

OK, I'm not into marriage and all that. Maybe it's because I have no religous beliefs, but I don't think people need a marriage certificate to prove love. Perhaps it's just because of the divorce rate now... marriage seems to mean so little now.

On the other hand, should people want to get married; male/female, male/male, female/female, then it's totally cool and I fully support gay marriages. You know, if a hetrosexual couple can show off their love by marriage, why could a homosexual couple have to settle for a "blessing" if they want a proper wedding.

So yah, thats my view!

[amuse]

well, there's always the justice of the peace; i mean, one doesn't need religion to obtain paper, should they desire it.
my bf and i aren't in the same religion, so should we tie the knot one day, that route would work best for us.

[emily655321]

I think in certain circumstances divorce has to be done; if one person abandons the other, or treats their spouse very badly. But overall, for various reasons, I think a lot of people don't understand what a serious commitment marriage is anymore. I don't think it's necessary to get married, and if all you want is "proof" of your love, definitely do not get married! That's why the divorce rate is so high: people don't realize what a serious, trying, hardcore commitment it is. But especially if you want to raise children, it does have social and political and financial benefits. You pay fewer taxes so you can support children; you are entitled to custody, alimony, property and assets if your spouse dies or leaves you; you are in the books as next of kin, which means you're allowed to ride with them in an ambulence, and claim inheritance if they don't leave a will. And it's really true that in social circles you're taken more seriously and given more professional respect at work if you're married, probably because it shows you're a responsible adult who can stay committed. Being part of a single couple, gay or straight, you don't get any of those things. You're really somewhat of a second class citizen, especially if you're raising children "out of wedlock." Even if you're part of a couple, you tend to be regarded as a single parent.

[emily655321]

Besides, religious groups don't have to sanction the marriage if they don't want to. I see a very clear distinction between legal marriage and the religious rite. And it's unconstitutional to base laws on religious belief, even though it's been done many times before. :rolleyes:

[Koa]

Excuse me, but is really MA the first state to make gay marriage legal??? As far as I know, it's been legal for years in the Netherlands (Europe :P), but maybe it's not really 'marriage'... And in France it's possible through something called something like 'social pact', it has the same legal features as a marriage, or sort of (like money in common if they want, incase one dies the other one is legally 'safe' in issues like house possession and such...oh I don't know anythign about practical sides of life...)

As for the issue...it's hard for me to have an opinion since I can't for the sake of me understand why people would want to be married, whether they're straight or gay. Then anyway they can do whatever they want, so I'm not really against gay marriage... I don't feel marriage is different from being a couple anyway, and since I have nothing against gay couples, I guess it's ok. There's another issue about them adopting kids, there I really dont know what I think cos even if I guess kids need both a male and female figure, as long as they're loved it shouldnt matter if it's by a male/female or not... Hope I'm not going to make the discussion dangerous now!

One thing I've started wondering about is... In the internet I often see people say 'yeah I have a few gay friends', as some of you did... While personally I've enver really known a gay person. I know boys who are said to be gay, but I either don't know them personally or it's an unconfirmed rumor... Is it because I have a very limited range of acquaintances, or because they're just all hidden cos the society would be hostile? (in opposition with northern europe, see the abovementioned Netherlands where-everything-is-legal :P or Belgium...)

[emily655321]

I meant a "state" as in one of the United States of A. :p Vermont, which borders Mass. to the north, legalized "civil unions" in I think 1998. That's the same sort of thing you were describing, where people have the same political rights but it isn't quite the same as marriage. I think one of the Canadian provinces did something similar a couple of years ago. There has been a lot of debate over "civil unions" versus "marriage" here lately. Most people in favor of gay rights in the US, including myself, argue that civil unions are sort of a backhanded gift. Like saying, "yes, you should have the same rights. But we're still gonna make sure you know you're different and not as good as a man/woman couple." The point is that to be truly equal no distinction should be made at all. It's asking for the same respect and dignity to be shown for gay couples as it is for straight couples.

As for gay friends-- most people don't come out until they're about 20, because high school can be a very cruel place for anyone who is "different," as you know. My school had a "Gay/Straight Alliance" club, that met every other Thursday. We just got together and talked and ate cookies and pizza. :D But it was made known to be a place where gay kids could come if they wanted and hang out with people who would accept them, and be able to talk openly or just hang out and feel comfortable. There were only about 10 regular members, but a bunch of others stopped in now and then. But some of the kids there only told the other members that they were gay; they weren't out to the rest of the school. So that's how I knew those friends.

That said, my friends have always been the oddballs of the school, so we were all used to being openly weird anyway. :p The few kids in the school who weren't afraid to be open, were all friends of mine. But I also had friends who were only out to the GSA, and a couple guys who weren't officially out yet but weren't afraid to be their "flamboyant" selves, either. :D So people are always at different stages in their lives. It's becoming increasingly normal to come out during high school, though, now that society is becoming more accepting. I look forward to a time when it really isn't an issue here at all; I hope my kids won't be constantly reminded which of their friends are "different," because everyone can just be themselves and not care.

[amuse]

i never knew someone was gay until i was in my twenties, koa. not even sure how my awareness shifted. that said, i still have had truly clueless moments, such as when i managed a little engraving store, and this beautiful woman wanted a clock for her partner of one year. well don't you know,
*skip if you'd rather not read anecdotal stuff
i chatted her up [harangued?] her endlessly re: how long had she and her partner been together, yada, yada, yada, when she needed this ready by, when the anniversary was, partner's taste and style preferences - i mean i thought that i was being this stellar manager/customer service person, never noticing she was smiling a little too tightly. come time to ring her up and i'm still asking questions. you have to realize, this was my job. people came in and would spill their hearts as they bought gifts for spouses, brides, consecrations, baptisms. everything.
i ask: "so what kind of business do you two have?"

:rolleyes: very dumb, bad, asha...
:rolleyes:

btw, i really don't like the name of this thread.

[ravana]

rocksea, thanks for that information about forbidden pork. I also looked for that surah in Koran: Sura "Al-Maidah" (the table spread) Ayats:3,4,5,88,96

"3.Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

4. They ask thee what is lawful to them (as food). Say: lawful unto you are (all) things good and pure: and what ye have taught your trained hunting animals (to catch) in the manner directed to you by Allah. eat what they catch for you, but pronounce the name of Allah over it: and fear Allah. for Allah is swift in taking account.

5. This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them.

88. Eat of the things which Allah hath provided for you, lawful and good; but fear Allah, in Whom ye believe.

96. Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food,- for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game;- as long as ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. And fear Allah, to Whom ye shall be gathered back.

[amuse]

maybe that was an excellent point after all re: moving this to religious topics!!

[ravana]

I agree this is very sensitive subject. But it's good that we are all here non-aggression and can respect other's opinions.

In spite of Azerbaijan as a muslim country keep Islam traditions (despite most people don't worship regularly) and on the other hand has own Caucasus mentality gays isn’t chased here. They gather in definite places of Baku and exist in safety. But to give them any rights can’t be even discussed. Our laws ignore them, society doesn’t respect. Even European Union doesn’t demand it because of respect to national mentality.

Do they have any rights in Europe, in addition to marriage? Of course, except Netherlands.

[amuse]

i wasn't speaking of sensitivity, just the big turn to religion.

too bad this thread can't be divided into two parts, one with a religious bias, and the other without. ah well.