opinion: is it fair?

[DeathAngel]

question for those in the christianity category,

in the bible it says that if you commit suicide you go to hell,
do you think that's fair?

Think about it, what if you're life is horrible, you have no hope left,
blabla, you'd rather take death then keep life...

Opinions, thoughts anyone...

[Pendragon]

Quote the passage, please.

[Redzeppelin]

Pen is politely telling you that there is no statement in the Bible (the basis of Christian faith) about the consequences of suicide being hell. Suicide is no different than lying, stealing, adultery: all are sins and all do destructive things to the individual who engages in them, the relationships he has with those around him and with God as well. Certain religions may have put sins into a hierarchy (which is pretty medieval), but the Bible did not do so. The biggest difference between suicide and lying is that the effects are generally more devastating because the dearly departed has no way to "come back" from this sin and grow into a better person (as the liar could concievably do).

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

I recall that Catholicism classifies suicide as a mortal sin and that it results in an eternity in hell. Any violation of the fifth commandment, not accepting Jesus, or I guess an overwhelming accumulation of other sins (a wicked life, not including murder and not accepting Jesus) might land you in hell, too. Purgatory at least. Catholicism also claims that your life belongs to God, not you.

Original poster, I personally don't find the idea of being doomed to hell for suicide very fair. I don't have very strong feelings either way because I've ruled out "going to hell" as a possibility.

In fact, it was a crime to try suicide until the 1960's in England, I don't think it has ever been enforced in the United States. In more fact, in ancient Greece, committing suicide was punished by burying the body on the outskirts of the city with no tombstone. A king in France during the 1600's formally outlawed suicide (good idea...?); for those who did it anyway, he had them dragged around the streets and thrown onto a giant garbage heap, and then confiscated all their stuff.

http://h1.ripway.com/Dallas/-Dallas-/The_More_You_Know2.jpg

[Redzeppelin]

People who "go to hell" get their by choice; essentially they come to this end because their way of negotiating life was to tell God "not thy will, but MINE." Sinning doesn't get you to hell - rejecting God's offer of salvation and eternal life does.

[Derringer]

If sinning doesn't get you to hell then there really is no need for pretty much all of the Bible. In fact, by that definition I will simply 'believe in God' (ALOT!) and commence my lifestyle of hedonism, adultery, ect.

[Pendragon]

I see that Red and Dr. Ralph have already pointed out what I was going to say. The Bible says St. Mark Chapter 3. [28] Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
[29] But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

That would cover suicide, I think.

[Redzeppelin]

If sinning doesn't get you to hell then there really is no need for pretty much all of the Bible. In fact, by that definition I will simply 'believe in God' (ALOT!) and commence my lifestyle of hedonism, adultery, ect.

Wrong: sin is a symptom of our problem (disconnection from God and hearts that need realignment with His great purposes). It is not a sinless life that gets one to heaven - it is a heart that desires to serve God and has a relationship with Him; the individual who is doing so loses the desire to sin because of the damaging effects that sin creates in the life of the believer and his/her relationship with others and with God.

Your final comment reveals a serious misunderstanding; sinning indescriminantly will diminish your so-called "belief" - because those who truly believe in God understand that sin is abhorrent to God and that He cannot have a relationship with someone who willingly and defiantly ignores His commands about how we are to behave. If you love someone, you do not do that which hurts that individual and damages your relationship with him/her. Your intended plan is the equivalent of "Screw you, honey, I'll do what I want and expect the benefits of having a relationship with you." Not happening.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

People who "go to hell" get their by choice; essentially they come to this end because their way of negotiating life was to tell God "not thy will, but MINE." Sinning doesn't get you to hell - rejecting God's offer of salvation and eternal life does.

Take it easy man, all I did was write the Catholic stance on suicide; you don't have to argue everything you read and disagree with...

[NikolaiI]

Well, we all know that suicide is painless. Hahahahhahaha
lol okay sorry

unless you cut your wrists, that might hurt...
more on this later.
red, check out what i said on adam and eve and don't hate me for it! ;)

i have to go, but talk to you later.

[Redzeppelin]

Take it easy man, all I did was write the Catholic stance on suicide; you don't have to argue everything you read and disagree with...

Thanks for the advice - but I wasn't responding specifically to your post (normally when I do I quote what I am responding to).

[Mortis Anarchy]

Well I'm Catholic...and I don't really believe that everyone that commits suicide goes to Hell. But who really knows. And anyways, why take the chance?! Why take the easy way out...we all have our ups and downs, and we learn the most about ourselves whenever we are really down. There is always life and hope out there...why not give it a shot? I've experienced a good friends suicide...and I hope to God that people don't try it...I still can't really forgive him for doing that...

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

Thanks for the advice - but I wasn't responding specifically to your post (normally when I do I quote what I am responding to).

It very much seemed to be an attack on the idea that sinning is what gets you into hell, which is what I wrote in my post. Since there was no mention of suicide in yours at all, and my post was the only substantial one preceding yours, I thought it a safe assumption. If somehow I am missing something, my bad.

[Mortis Anarchy]

I think what gets you into Hell is when you reject grace from God. When you have totally turned your back on him...but even then, God will always take you back...thats what he wants. I refuse to believe that God is that cruel.

[NikolaiI]

What if the reason you committed suicide was that you couldn't bear being away from God any longer, and you wanted to go to heaven? Or what about suicides for a cause, such as monks setting themselves on fire to protest the war in Vietnam? Also, does it matter in what way you kill yourself? For instance, suppose Gandhi had died on his hunger strike - is that any better than taking pills or jumping off something? What if you died out in the wilderness on a camping trip, that would probably not be suicide, right, but what if you purposefully went somewhere you couldn't get help, and starved to death that way. I mean, Jesus for example spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness praying, what if you tried the ascetic ideal in imitation of him but did not survive like he did?

So my question is are all forms of suicide going to send you to hell, etc.

By the way, one person that did die on a hunger strike, so to speak, was Nikolai Gogol. They say he fell under the influence of a fanatical priest, and died of starvation during fasting. I aks you if he went to heaven or hell, especially since he was fasting for a religious reason, and believed in God and all.

Personally I don't think heaven or hell exist. Which isn't to say I don't believe in spirituality or the metaphysical. :) I just think it's most likely that we simply cease to exist when we die. I'd say the after-life is very similar to the before-life.

[ampoule]

If sinning doesn't get you to hell then there really is no need for pretty much all of the Bible. In fact, by that definition I will simply 'believe in God' (ALOT!) and commence my lifestyle of hedonism, adultery, ect.

I think it's a little more than that...and perhaps you are teasing...but if someone truly believes in God then they will work at living in a more godly manner and see it as an honor to do so.

And as to suicide, I will let God be the judge, whether it be intentional, accidental, mercy or for a worthy cause. Suicide is murder, not of just the individual's physical life, but of the joy of friends and loved ones, their trust, their hope.

[Pendragon]

The question I have about suicide is whether or not the person is actually responsible for their own actions at that moment. I have suffered from bi-polar and depression and have in my teen-age years attempted suicide twice. I know several people who were suicides. That overwhelming feeling of there is no way out is terrible to face. There, but for the Grace of God go I. I have counseled many about the feeling since, and know I have pulled at least three away from the brink. Don't think yourself immune. Things can change overnight. I knew a man I would never have thought would ever do something like that who had so much happen in 48 hours that he shot himself. I wasn't there, because I didn't know until after the fact, and he didn't call me. I would have been there for him, risked my own life to try to talk him out of it. But I will not and can not say he is in hell.

[AdoreroDio]

I think that it is fair- the Bible says not to murder and has no exception to oneself. I mean with murder, afterwards if you truly want forgiveness then I believe you can receive it, but if you kill yourself there is no chance to ask for forgiveness. But Pendragon makes a good point because some people aren't themselves when they are suicidal- I'm, not realy sure.
This is what I am sure of though, God is a just and truthful God and whatever he decides I know is 'fair'.

[NikolaiI]

Well that's a good question Pen, and it immediately brings up the question of free will. What is God's Will, what is our will, and how do the two interact? I guess God intervenes occasionally, but the rest of the time it is up to us, and whatever happens is a result of our actions collectively.

I think we always have a choice. I had a friend who took some pills one time when I was staying at his house, he was bi-polar, and knew what he needed to take to kill him. He tried to lie down in a freezer, when I was asleep, he told me a little later. It was a trying ordeal, as when I woke up he told me about it, and he wouldn't take epikek unless I did as well. We ended up taking epikek, but it didn't do anything for a minute, and so we threw up by sticking our fingers down our throats, and that worked...then the epikek kicked in and we threw up again. Dry heaves, ugh. :)

No one is immune, but I think if someone kills themselves then have probably been harboring it for a long time. It's always sad, and it does kill a part of you when a friend kills theirself, however, sadness can be healthy, even depression, and where there's death there's also new life.

[Mortis Anarchy]

Its more than sad! Whenever my friend killed himself I was devestated. Its like I could have done something. I could have stopped him, I could have seen what was coming!!! Its not something you say, eh Stuf happens...and shrug it off. Suicide is not something to take lightly...I'm not saying that that is what you are saying, but goodness.

My brother is OCD and suffers from depression...one night he went balistic and said he was going to kill himself...he was tired of life and of his problems. I called the cops.

I don't think anyone can honestly say where people go when they die.

Plus, people that committed suicide used to not be allowed to be buried in a Catholic graveyard or have their service on Catholic grounds. But now that has changed...and I think that is sort of a symbol of we don't really know where people go when they die, or commit suicide.

Why take the chance anyways.

[Derringer]

I think it's a little more than that...and perhaps you are teasing...but if someone truly believes in God then they will work at living in a more godly manner and see it as an honor to do so.



Yes, I was teasing, but I think the flipside of the coin is "with God on our side"

[the silent x]

i don't believe that those that are devout christians will go to hell i fthey commit suicide, at the same time, the bad times in their lives just may be a test, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger thing, i remember one story in the bible where the devil challenged God and God allowed him to put his most loyal servant to the worst that the world could throw at him. he lost everything, except his life, in the end he got rewarded with everything back and then some more.

another thing i believe judgment by God is reserved until judgment day, meaning that all of those that are dead, aren't in heaven or hell right now, their souls are sleeping until judgement day, it seems to pass in a second but really it doesn't. on the day of armeghedon God separates the wheat for the chaff and those who believe in Christ will have their slates wiped clean, nothing left but goodliness. so whether they killed themselves or not, as long as they were devout then they will go to heaven.

of course at the same tiem no one knows what happens after death, i'm still waiting for the verdict on instant death after decapitation, the man could still be blinking his eyes but that also might just be reflex

[kiz_paws]

Sadly, I think that when someone attempts suicide, they are beyond caring just what happens after the fact. I am not trying to argue with anyone, I am just voicing my opinion from one who had a boyfriend who went this route a few years ago. Painful, depressing, sad, and what can one say..... :(

[stephofthenight]

actualy, as ive unfortunalty spent some time with sucide, in leviticus and romas it speaks on it alot. or i think its romans... but yeah. and no i dont think that its fair i mean if you ask for forgivness before you do it i think it should be forgiven. as the only unforgivable sin happens to be blasphmy...
-steph-

[stephofthenight]

Well, we all know that suicide is painless. Hahahahhahaha
lol okay sorry

unless you cut your wrists, that might hurt...
more on this later.
red, check out what i said on adam and eve and don't hate me for it! ;)

i have to go, but talk to you later.

well it may be "painless" but i gaurentee you that its only painless because that person becomes acostum to the pain of life. and its unlimited relife so the pain is disguised...and the pain is left for there friends and family to bare...my thoughts on it. sucide is a very cowardly action. and pen yes im finaly excepting it...
steph

[the silent x]

actually, you only feel pain for a little bit, endorphins in your body are released once you have sustained an injury, think of it as a natural high, that's why cutters cut ( the slightly non-suicidal ones) i think suicide is a strange action, it is cowardly and weak yes, because the person didn't have the strength to overcome or to find a way out or to block the things happening to them, but at the same time, it is also a brave action, that you need strength for,not everyone can face the "other side" since no one knows what is in the afterlife, it is really the one truely unexplored domain. i know in grade school when i took th ebiggest emotional beating of my life, was because i was scared of what would happen when i died, i also didn't want ot feel the pain of actual death, whether it be by slicing the wrists, or shooting yourself (highly reccommend you don't do that, instead of killing yourself, you could just blow out your frontal lobe and end up in a vegetation state)

[Mortis Anarchy]

well it may be "painless" but i gaurentee you that its only painless because that person becomes acostum to the pain of life. and its unlimited relife so the pain is disguised...and the pain is left for there friends and family to bare...my thoughts on it. sucide is a very cowardly action. and pen yes im finaly excepting it...
steph

I totally agree. There is so much more to life...there is always hope....its not about not caring anymore...everyone has there ups and downs..sure some more than others, but come on.

I still haven't accepted my friends suicide. I'm very angry...its sad because people have the capability to do great things. Sure it may not always be in the limelight, but at the same time, there are things people can do that make a difference in any persons life. I'm not making any sense anymore...this is coming out of my emotions and it doesn't sound very rational anymore.

[stephofthenight]

actually, you only feel pain for a little bit, endorphins in your body are released once you have sustained an injury, think of it as a natural high, that's why cutters cut ( the slightly non-suicidal ones) cutting is an addiction, and its not a slightly non suicidal, you have people who are addicted to the relese of pain from cutting and those who are addicted to the relese of life from cutting. steph

[Pendragon]

well it may be "painless" but i gaurentee you that its only painless because that person becomes acostum to the pain of life. and its unlimited relife so the pain is disguised...and the pain is left for there friends and family to bare...my thoughts on it. sucide is a very cowardly action. and pen yes im finaly excepting it...
stephI'm glad to hear you say that Steph, a lot of prayers have gone up on your behalf, I worried you might follow. It isn't easy to accept anyone's death and a suicide is hardest of all. But AndyDio, Steph is right, only Blaspheming the Holy Ghost is unforgivable, I think I posted the scripture somewhere. Yet, I would also agree with Mortis "Why take that chance?"

God bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[togre]

What causes people to go to hell?
Unforgiven sin


What is an unforgiven sin?
One that is not repented of. (I'm not saying "whoops! I forgot to ask God to forgive me for stealing candy in sixth grade!" Rather a sin (even as "small" as stealing candy) that I cling to, that I say "God, I know what you want from me, but I'm going to do this anyway. I'm not sorry. If had to choose between you and x, I'd choose x")

Is suicide forgivable?
Wow, that's a tough one. By it's very nature there is no time afterward to here God's law (what he expects of us), repent (realize we've messed up) and hear the Gospel (the Good News that even though we messed up and deserve to go to hell God love us, has punished his Son in our place and has forgiven us completely). It seems to be a sin that cannot be repented of. But...

When a Christian sins does he/she always lose faith?
In a moment of weakness Christians do things, say things, think things that are not pleasing to God. They don't necessarily destroy faith, destroy the relationship that God has created. Can suicide be a sin that doesn't destroy faith? A sin of a momentary weakness? In more recent times and understanding of mental illness and the effects of drugs/alcohol have led a number of theologians (even those who are wedded to a conservative/literal understanding of Scriptures) to be very hesitant to say suicide always involves an unrepentant defiance of God and therefore necessarily leads to hell.

However, suicide certainly can be such a defiance and should not be treated lightly. There are only accounts of suicide in the Bible (King Saul and Judas) and in both cases these men died apart from God. Suicide is a sin--it places my plan for my life above God's commands on how to live my life. (To the remark, What if I really want to be with God? See what the Apostle Paul said, "To live is Christ, to died is gain"--This life is filled with living for our Savior. After death we have great blessings, the greatest being united with our loving God in heaven. We know things will be better for us (no matter how good they are now) after we die. But God tells us not to murder and this surely applies to ourselves. After Paul wrote these words, he lived for a number of years. He traveled and taught. He was imprisoned and beaten. Yet he was willing to endure a life that wasn't always a bed of roses, because he knew what God expected from him and what God had in store for him.)

Finally, to those who may have lost someone near to suicide,
Only God knows the heart. We can say suicide is serious. We can acknowledge possible exceptions. But in the end, it is in the hands of the Lord. The Lord is just and doesn't make mistakes. The Lord is loving and merciful and gave up even his Son to win forgiveness. If it is in his hands we can be certain he'll do what is right.

[Redzeppelin]

well it may be "painless" but i gaurentee you that its only painless because that person becomes acostum to the pain of life. and its unlimited relife so the pain is disguised...and the pain is left for there friends and family to bare...

A quick note so that Nikolai doesn't appear totally disrespectful - the "suicide is painless" line is from the theme of the old 70s TV show M*A*S*H. I don't think s/he was actually putting that forward as a serious comment.

Haven't seen you around lately steph - how are you doing?

[stephofthenight]

A quick note so that Nikolai doesn't appear totally disrespectful - the "suicide is painless" line is from the theme of the old 70s TV show M*A*S*H. I don't think s/he was actually putting that forward as a serious comment.

Haven't seen you around lately steph - how are you doing?

doing well actualy. i got saved a few weeks ago, finaly stoped blamihng myself and moved on. and i have been counciling 12-14 y.olds about the cost of sucide... thanks for asking...
sorry, i dont watch much tv. and althou i have moved on i still hate when people say that its painless. my appologize
steph

[NikolaiI]

Yes, that's what I meant, thank you red. I didn't mean anything, what I had to say I said on a previous post. Or later post, I'm not sure.

[NikolaiI]

What causes people to go to hell?
Unforgiven sin


What is an unforgiven sin?
One that is not repented of. (I'm not saying "whoops! I forgot to ask God to forgive me for stealing candy in sixth grade!" Rather a sin (even as "small" as stealing candy) that I cling to, that I say "God, I know what you want from me, but I'm going to do this anyway. I'm not sorry. If had to choose between you and x, I'd choose x")

Is suicide forgivable?
Wow, that's a tough one. By it's very nature there is no time afterward to here God's law (what he expects of us), repent (realize we've messed up) and hear the Gospel (the Good News that even though we messed up and deserve to go to hell God love us, has punished his Son in our place and has forgiven us completely). It seems to be a sin that cannot be repented of. But...


I think someone was asking, what happens if you repent on the way down, for instance. I.e. you make a decision to kill yourself and after its too late, either because you are lost at sea, lost in the wilderness, on your way down from the cliffs, or about to die from pills or something else, you repent, or let's say give yourself to God as much as you can, would you be forgiven then? Even if this was your plan all along, if you still thought of everything in your life and prayed as you were falling, would you be forgiven?

And my main question was something basically like if we renounce life for whatever reason, but we do not wish to do a violent act to ourselves, say, we die by rigorous fasting, like Gogol, what is the result then? Or what if we tried to imitate Jesus' ascetic praying in the desert, but did not survive - what then? I would like it if someone would respond to this post.

But you are right that there is no time to repent after the fact. Although of that we're not sure. We don't know what happens to the consciousness, or how quickly it happens. I mean, you could die but still be conscious for several seconds or something like that. Hell, anything is possible, we really don't know.

[Redzeppelin]

doing well actualy. i got saved a few weeks ago, finaly stoped blamihng myself and moved on. and i have been counciling 12-14 y.olds about the cost of sucide... thanks for asking...
sorry, i dont watch much tv. and althou i have moved on i still hate when people say that its painless. my appologize
steph

Congratulations - that is the greatest news I've heard in weeks! I'm proud of you for taking the step and letting go of the baggage that would only have continued to hurt you. I honor you and your decision and am excited for the journey you have undertaken. Bravo! All of heaven rejoices when a person shows the courage to step forward and make the big step. I stand up from my chair for you :D

[stephofthenight]

thanks lol, i never realy thought it would be such a major ordeal, and so life changing but it was...

do you ever wonder if the bible is over exadrated...i mean mortals worte it. we arnt perfect and people say god wouldnt let his word get mixed up, well why would he let humans who are in his image become currupt? just another disfunctional thought. steph

[stephofthenight]

Your Body is Gods Temple he resides there, it doesnt realy belong to you as your life doesnt belong to you. So in taking action against yourself your taking action against God. Its like purity and sexual sin, not only do you sin against yourself, but your sinning against God. In Leviticus 19:22 or 22:19 (dislexia kicks in) It is talking about cutting and self mutlation being a sin against Gods temple therfort against God.

The question i hence forth post is, If you ask God to forgive you before you do it will you be forgiven??? the only unforgivable is blashmy?
steph

[Redzeppelin]

thanks lol, i never realy thought it would be such a major ordeal, and so life changing but it was...

It IS a big deal - the greatest decision in your life. When all is over and we are in heaven, it will be amazing to see just how important this decision was - and being able to meet the other believers will be tremendous. Someday in heaven, you and I and Pen and the other believers on this site will meet face-to-face. Can you imagine how cool that will be?


do you ever wonder if the bible is over exadrated...i mean mortals worte it. we arnt perfect and people say god wouldnt let his word get mixed up, well why would he let humans who are in his image become currupt? just another disfunctional thought. steph

Humans "wrote" the Bible physically, but their thoughts and words came from God Himself. Humans have free will - they are free to choose the path of their lives; but God's word - well, He has a vested interest in His words and thoughts lasting throughout history so that believers could have the revelation of His character to learn from. Since the Bible is composed of God's thoughts, He has a right to protect it from corruption - but in order for love to exist, you and I have to have free will - the free choice to accept or reject God's love.


Your Body is Gods Temple he resides there, it doesnt realy belong to you as your life doesnt belong to you. So in taking action against yourself your taking action against God. Its like purity and sexual sin, not only do you sin against yourself, but your sinning against God. In Leviticus 19:22 or 22:19 (dislexia kicks in) It is talking about cutting and self mutlation being a sin against Gods temple therfort against God.

The question i hence forth post is, If you ask God to forgive you before you do it will you be forgiven??? the only unforgivable is blashmy?
steph

Technically, the death of Christ on the cross atones ALL our sins - past, present, and future. But Paul warns us that that is not a license to keep on sinning - it is merely a reality that Christ's spotless character paid the price for all sin. Nonetheless, forgiveness must be more than confession; it must also contain repentance (a turning away from the bad and toward the good - a change of heart).

The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the conscious and consistent rejection of the Holy Spirit's attempts to convict a person of his/her need of God. It is a rebellion of the heart, a refusal to listen to the Holy Spirit's urging of us towards God.

[Pendragon]

Are you so certain about King Saul? I ask because of these pieces of scripture:

I Samuel 28

[16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
[17] And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
[18] Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
[19] Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Question 1: As Samuel tells Saul that "thou and thy sons shall be with me" was Samuel in Hell?


2 Samuel 1

5] And David said unto the young man that told him, How knowest thou that Saul and Jonathan his son be dead?
[6] And the young man that told him said, As I happened by chance upon mount Gilboa, behold, Saul leaned upon his spear; and, lo, the chariots and horsemen followed hard after him.
[7] And when he looked behind him, he saw me, and called unto me. And I answered, Here am I.
[8] And he said unto me, Who art thou? And I answered him, I am an Amalekite.
[9] And he said unto me again, Stand, I pray thee, upon me, and slay me: for anguish is come upon me, because my life is yet whole in me.
[10] So I stood upon him, and slew him, because I was sure that he could not live after that he was fallen: and I took the crown that was upon his head, and the bracelet that was on his arm, and have brought them hither unto my lord.

Question 2: It would seem that although Saul attempted suicide, he was unsuccessful, and asked this man to finish him off, doesn't it look that way? The Amalekite felt that he would be rewarded for the deed, but David had him killed because he dared to slay God's annointed.

Check everything carefully, and always remember, there is no one who knows everything. If you feel that it is wrong, fine. But don't make it a doctrine unless you can back it with something solid, and it doesn't appear to be there. We cannot judge the person who has chosen this terrible path, I would only try to talk them out of it if I could.

God bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[Redzeppelin]

Are you so certain about King Saul? I ask because of these pieces of scripture:

I Samuel 28

[16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
[17] And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
[18] Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
[19] Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

Question 1: As Samuel tells Saul that "thou and thy sons shall be with me" was Samuel in Hell?

Hi Pen - are you responding to something I said?

[togre]

Pendragon,

Thanks for your observations. I'm going to research the question of Saul in hell more thoroughly before I respond to that, but with regards to your other questions.

Question 1 from 1 Samuel 28, Was Samuel in hell?

Sidestepping the whole issue of was it really Samuel's spirit (that's interesting, but not to the point right now) would it not seem to indicate that Saul would be dead by the next day? This would be in line with the Hebrew usage of "Sheol" which (judging by its usage in context) usually indicates the destination of the dead both believers and unbelievers (kind of like "grave" in English), though there are times when it is better translated "hell." The point being Samuel was dead. By the next day Saul and his sons would be dead. This would seem to be a more accurate understanding of "Samuel's" word, especially since Samuel and Jonathan, Saul's son, gave evidence of faith that would indicate that they didn't end up in hell. Hope I said that clearly, otherwise I'll try again on redirect.

Question 2: Did Saul really succeed in killing himself?

You indicated from the Amalekite's story in 2 Samuel 1 that Saul probably didn't die from his own wound. Might I suggest another possibility: The Amalekite lied in hopes of gaining favor with the new king and received a just punishment even if David was mistaken as to his offense? 1 Samuel 31:4,5 says the armor bear saw Saul was dead. 2 Samuel 1 says that the Amalekite said he killed Saul. Doesn't say he did it.

I appreciate your encouragement to check everything carefully.

[Visionary3]

A social worker friend thought suicide was the most hateful act a person could commit. Even if they had personal problems their total disregard for others in commiting the act really bothered him. He saw it as an act of hate to others.

When my cousin committed suicide we were all devastated! He had called and asked to come live with me and I put him off, not knowing he was having emotional problems as the family was very secretive about that. It took me years to get over the guilt I felt. I do not think he was really aware of what he was doing, blowing his brains out all over the place in a bedroom at home. I have to believe that God understands and will not send him to hell.
And that our prayers for his forgiveness counts for something in God's great mercy and loving kindness.

[Pendragon]

Pendragon,

Thanks for your observations. I'm going to research the question of Saul in hell more thoroughly before I respond to that, but with regards to your other questions.

Question 1 from 1 Samuel 28, Was Samuel in hell?

Sidestepping the whole issue of was it really Samuel's spirit (that's interesting, but not to the point right now) would it not seem to indicate that Saul would be dead by the next day? This would be in line with the Hebrew usage of "Sheol" which (judging by its usage in context) usually indicates the destination of the dead both believers and unbelievers (kind of like "grave" in English), though there are times when it is better translated "hell." The point being Samuel was dead. By the next day Saul and his sons would be dead. This would seem to be a more accurate understanding of "Samuel's" word, especially since Samuel and Jonathan, Saul's son, gave evidence of faith that would indicate that they didn't end up in hell. Hope I said that clearly, otherwise I'll try again on redirect.

I have heard this sort of tiptoeing around with the word "hell" before. Now, when the Old Testament spoke of Death, as in the passing of a King, David, for example, it reads thus: 1 Kings 2: 10] So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Buried indicated a grave, not hell. And as you say, Samuel and Jonathan were just and righteous, and David called Saul "The Anointed of the Lord".



Question 2: Did Saul really succeed in killing himself?

You indicated from the Amalekite's story in 2 Samuel 1 that Saul probably didn't die from his own wound. Might I suggest another possibility: The Amalekite lied in hopes of gaining favor with the new king and received a just punishment even if David was mistaken as to his offense? 1 Samuel 31:4,5 says the armor bear saw Saul was dead. 2 Samuel 1 says that the Amalekite said he killed Saul. Doesn't say he did it.

I appreciate your encouragement to check everything carefully.

True, it says he told the story. He could have made it up, of course. The question I have is, what purpose would this serve in the Bible? If we take it as the truth, it does match what we know of Saul. He was a big man, head and shoulders taller than the rest of the army. It would take time for him to bleed out from a self-inflicted wound, and he could panic and ask someone to finish him off. If it was just a story, it still shows that the man was God's Anointed, as David said when he ordered the Amalekite slain, thus further underscoring that he would have made it to heaven.

But, nevertheless, the Bible says "Let everyman be fully persuaded in his own mind." Rom. 14:5

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[weepingforloman]

I'm new to this one, but since it appears that others have done the (necessary) work of pointing out that suicide is not necessarily a damning sin, I will address the question of the justice of Hell itself. I paraphrase C.S. Lewis when I say: the question ultimately is, "what are you asking God to do by not 'damning' souls?" To forgive them? They will not allow themselves to be forgiven. To ignore their sins? He cannot do that, not and remain a good God. To leave them alone? That's exactly what He does. God is the only happiness for a man (all things that we enjoy, we enjoy because they reveal an aspect of God, or allow us to experience an aspect of God's love for us). Hell is the utmost limit of the course we have all already started: to set up ourselves as our happiness, to enjoy something that is not God... so the Hell-bound get what they wanted. But it is not what they thought.

[NikolaiI]

Most of the ideas we have of Hell and the Devil come not from God but from Dante and Milton.

[weepingforloman]

Milton glorified the devil. Intentionally or not, he made Satan appear as a sophisticated, well-rounded creature, rebelling against the tyrannous authority of Heaven. In fact, his picture is quite similar to Goethe's, in "Doktor Faustus."

Sadly, I have not read Dante.

[Redzeppelin]

Milton glorified the devil. Intentionally or not, he made Satan appear as a sophisticated, well-rounded creature, rebelling against the tyrannous authority of Heaven. In fact, his picture is quite similar to Goethe's, in "Doktor Faustus."

Sadly, I have not read Dante.

1. I agree - Milton did glorify Satan - we get his point-of-view as a tragic character, instead of God's (for probably good literary reasons I suppose - how does one make God a character?). The part that I do like is that Milton makes it clear that Satan's primary goal in response to his failure to "take" God's throne is to turn his force upon that far less formidable than God and destroy that which God loves - His creation.

2. Everybody's got to read Dante - at least Inferno and Purgatorio. Amazing - but hardly theologically correct. Get an edition with footnotes - there's too much going on to absorb it in a "cold reading."

[Pendragon]

Well, they take the classic demonic form, red with horns, cloven foot, and tail, from old painting and woodcuts authorized by The Church. They were done not to show the true face of Satan, i.e., the appearance, but the nature. Given that Satan was a fallen Archangel, there is some argument as to whether or not this is Lucifer or Shemuel, a different more beautiful shape emerges. I go with Lucifer, myself.

[kiz_paws]

I have to believe that God understands and will not send him to hell.
And that our prayers for his forgiveness counts for something in God's great mercy and loving kindness.
I liked this, Visionary, thanks for this thought. :)

[weepingforloman]

I'd just like to point out that the concept of God "sending" someone to Hell is outdated. Pick up a modern work of theology.

[Pendragon]

I'd just like to point out that the concept of God "sending" someone to Hell is outdated. Pick up a modern work of theology.The "concept" might be, as you say, "outdated." This is based on modern theologians' study of the scripture. I only have one problem with that. The complaint most people make about The Bible is that it was written by men. So are these "modern theologians", whom would you suggest, someone like Adam Clarke, perhaps, superhuman? Are they not also men? Because I use a KJV doesn't mean I don't keep up with the current trends. I remain unconvinced that hell is not a real place.

Go into science for a second. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." If we have joy, we also have sorrow. Why would there be a heaven to gain if there were no hell to avoid?

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[Whifflingpin]

"I'd just like to point out that the concept of God "sending" someone to Hell is outdated. "

The concept is biblical at least. I refer you, for example, to Matthew 13:41 et seq. "The Son of Man will give charge to his angels, and they will gather up all that gives offence in his kingdom, and all those who do wickedly in it, and will cast them into the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth." Not much reference there to hell being a self-imposed separation from God.

[Not, I hasten to add, that I have any reason to agree with the passage.
And I certainly do not believe that people who are driven to suicide could be counted amongst "those who do wickedly" in his kingdom. In fact, I think they are included in "Blessed are the poor in spirit, the kingdom of Heaven is theirs."]

[weepingforloman]

The "concept" might be, as you say, "outdated." This is based on modern theologians' study of the scripture. I only have one problem with that. The complaint most people make about The Bible is that it was written by men. So are these "modern theologians", whom would you suggest, someone like Adam Clarke, perhaps, superhuman? Are they not also men? Because I use a KJV doesn't mean I don't keep up with the current trends. I remain unconvinced that hell is not a real place.

Go into science for a second. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." If we have joy, we also have sorrow. Why would there be a heaven to gain if there were no hell to avoid?

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

I did not mean the idea of Hell itself. I know Hell is real. The idea, rather, of God forcibly sending someone into Hell, the typical dragged away by the demons screaming and reaching out toward Heaven picture. Those who will be in Hell will choose to be in Hell. "Ask and you shall receive," well, they ask for Hell. As Milton said, the damned say "better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven."

And I was referring mostly to C.S. Lewis.

[Granny5]

I guess I just can't believe that a God of love, one that loves us more than we could possibly love anything or anyone, could condem any one to eternal death. I couldn't my children or my brothers or my husband or my grandchildren, and I am meerly human without the ability to love as purely as God. In any case, for one to kill themself wouldn't there have to be some sort of mental illness? Depression comes to mind. Would that person be condemmed to eternal death or hell? What about someone with termial cancer who could no longer bare the treatments? Wouldn't that be suicide, to stop treatment knowing you'd die when treatment held a possibility of prolonging life? I think the threat of hell is like threating a child with the boggie man. Maybe in ancient times it worked. Aren't we past that?

[Derringer]

God does not force people to go to hell according to the Bible. He sacrificed his son ( i guess himself ??? ) for everyone else's sin. Accordingly, it is free will, not God, that sends people to hell..

[Bookworm4Him]

I guess I just can't believe that a God of love, one that loves us more than we could possibly love anything or anyone, could condem any one to eternal death. I couldn't my children or my brothers or my husband or my grandchildren, and I am meerly human without the ability to love as purely as God. In any case, for one to kill themself wouldn't there have to be some sort of mental illness? Depression comes to mind. Would that person be condemmed to eternal death or hell? What about someone with termial cancer who could no longer bare the treatments? Wouldn't that be suicide, to stop treatment knowing you'd die when treatment held a possibility of prolonging life? I think the threat of hell is like threating a child with the boggie man. Maybe in ancient times it worked. Aren't we past that?

God does love us, but He can't stand sin. You may love your children, even if they do wrong, but do you like the bad things they do? Of course not! As for being mentally ill, wouldn't you be willing to die in your children's place? That is sacrifice, not depression! John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." And there's just a small difference btw. hell and the boogie man... hell exists. We shouldn't be past the truth.

[Pendragon]

God does love us, but He can't stand sin. You may love your children, even if they do wrong, but do you like the bad things they do? Of course not! As for being mentally ill, wouldn't you be willing to die in your children's place? That is sacrifice, not depression! John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." And there's just a small difference btw. hell and the boogie man... hell exists. We shouldn't be past the truth.
The People used to say "Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins." Have you known the depths of depression? Have you ever talked someone out of suicide?
Have you ever attempted it yourself? Have you walked the halls of a Mental Ward and seen the suffering people go through? Unless you can say yes to these questions, you really have no idea what it is like for some just to wake up in the morning.

I know. I can answer yes to all four questions. But for the Grace of God I would be dead right now. So would several other people I have spent hours with on the phone and face to face, risking my own life to keep them from death. The torment goes on until sometimes it seems that it’s all there is left. It takes someone willing to go the extra mile,
Ruyard Kipling’s Thousandth Man, to stand up for these people before it is too late.

But I cannot and will not say they go to hell.

God Bless

Pendragon

[stephofthenight]

The People used to say "Never judge a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins." Have you known the depths of depression? Have you ever talked someone out of suicide?
Have you ever attempted it yourself? Have you walked the halls of a Mental Ward and seen the suffering people go through? Unless you can say yes to these questions, you really have no idea what it is like for some just to wake up in the morning.

I know. I can answer yes to all four questions. But for the Grace of God I would be dead right now. So would several other people I have spent hours with on the phone and face to face, risking my own life to keep them from death. The torment goes on until sometimes it seems that it’s all there is left. It takes someone willing to go the extra mile,
Ruyard Kipling’s Thousandth Man, to stand up for these people before it is too late.

But I cannot and will not say they go to hell.

God Bless

Pendragon



reminds me of to kill a mockingbird...and i am in agrence with you on all four of those. and if it wasnt for god and some verry whitty people on here i wouldnt be here.
i belive if it is not a hatefull act intending to cause more pain if it is just past the point of being mentaly able to reason then no they will not go to hell...

[Bookworm4Him]

I'd just like to point out that the concept of God "sending" someone to Hell is outdated.

You're right, He doesn't send us to Hell, it's our choice whether we go or not. If we believe in Him and His Son, we'll be with Him. If we reject Him, then we have to be seperate from Him, therefore in hell.

[Gene McKnight]

question for those in the christianity category,

in the bible it says that if you commit suicide you go to hell,
do you think that's fair?

Think about it, what if you're life is horrible, you have no hope left,
blabla, you'd rather take death then keep life...

Opinions, thoughts anyone...

The Bible does not say, "if you commit suicide you go to hell." What it says and I'm paraphrasing; if you commit the unpardonable sin there is no salvation. He was speaking of the sin which ends in death and that is believing that Jesus is not the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. This is done by blaspheming the Holy Spirit which Jesus sent. Jesus died for all mankind as a gift. Some gifts are refused. Then Death. **gene

[weepingforloman]

I'm a little inclined to dispute your definition of blasphemy. I believe the more accurate idea is that it involves knowing and acknowledging the nature and identity of God and, more specifically, of Christ, and yet refusing to serve the Lord.

[hellsapoppin]

``blabla, you'd rather take death then keep life...``

Jesus said that to hate another person is an act of murder and that the punishment for that is eternal death. But one is commanded to love oneself.

I do not recall reading where the Bible expressly addresses self immolation. A quick search thru blueletterbible.org indicates that ''suicide'' does not appear in the KJV.

However, the Bible does indicate that god will have mercy on whom he pleases as per Romans 9. If he fails to answer the prayers of one who suffers, then it shows he lacked mercy on that person. Sad, but that's the way he chooses to be despite the promise of ''ask and ye shall receive''.

[weepingforloman]

Ask and ye shall receive- and yet Christ Himself did not receive what He prayed for in Gethsemane. Ask and ye shall receive- but not necessarily what you asked for. Prayer is always answered, the question is whether the answer is "yes" or "no." Surely no one can be in favor of God's unconditional granting of all prayers? The thing itself is impossible, both sides pray for victory in war or in sport. And surely you do not think a child should miraculously receive every toy he prays for?