Establishing a library -- easy or hard? What about copyrights?

[Fango]

I have a dream in the horizon to establish the first English-only library in Israel. I'm curious how difficult it would be to get copyright permissions and overall establish a library. I probably don't know what I'm getting myself into, so if you people got some informative ideas (without biased or discouragement) or some experience, I'd appreciate it a lot.



Thanks a lot,

Fango

[genoveva]

A library simply needs books. You don't need copyright to have a library. What is your concern with copyright? Libraries are great- good luck with your endeavor.

[JuLe]

I support this great idea, and so is my mom who has to buy all of my English books.

[Fango]

Thank you JuLe!

genoveva, here is my concern, which I'm assume you're not aware of:

90% of books have the following copyright message:

"All rights reserved. This publication may not be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise, without the prior permission of the publishers"


See that "stored in a retrieval system" part? That's what I'm talking about, so I wonder if it's hard to acquire permissions. Though I dearly hope or hoped that you wouldn't need any permission for a library, it seems like you do, right? Unless you have some ideas for me, I believe that to establish a library one needs permission from all publications he/she possesses. Am I correct?

[Turk]

Don't worry my Jewish friend. Just establish your library nothing would happen trust me. That retrieval part must be about for people who's gonna make busines of this; like renting books. Also even that stupid, who can find you in İsrael? Think about it, English printing houses are in England or USA could they find you in Israel? I don't think so.

Plus even if you have troubles you can simply say "you destroyed 6 million Jews in WW2 and now you are trying to block education of poor Jewish children", and kabaam they will suddenly feel guilty and leave you free.

[JuLe]

Mmmm.. yeah that's the way these things work. sure.

[Dark Star]

Mmmm.. yeah that's the way these things work. sure.

You clearly underestimate the power political correctness holds over various companies. ;)

[Fango]

Heh, well just for the records, while I am Jewish it's by roots, I don't practice any religion. Back to the issue...


Don't worry my Jewish friend. Just establish your library nothing would happen trust me. That retrieval part must be about for people who's gonna make busines of this; like renting books. Also even that stupid, who can find you in İsrael? Think about it, English printing houses are in England or USA could they find you in Israel? I don't think so.

Plus even if you have troubles you can simply say "you destroyed 6 million Jews in WW2 and now you are trying to block education of poor Jewish children", and kabaam they will suddenly feel guilty and leave you free.


Now, technically a library IS a business, right? People DO rent books. Remember, I want to start a library not a thrift-shop.

Now, these are interesting arguments with you present, but I'm not looking for political correctness or subjectivity, I'm really looking for facts if anyone can provide them. I mean, I really want to believe you, believe you me :) but I just don't wanna get a lawsuit because I didn't do my research properly...

[Dark Star]

I believe what he meant by 'renting books' is that libraries don't tend to charge for them. A 'rental book' place would charge a fee per book rented.

[Turk]

Then maybe you should ask to a lawyer in Israel. Because unless it's not a crime in Israel an American printing press can't do anything In Turkiye it's not a crime, there's this old guy who have around few thousands books here and children are borrowing books from him, like a village library. I don't think it could be crime in anywhere, simply these books belong to you, if you want to lend them nobody can say something to you. I don't think you would get a lawsuit but anyway ask a friend lawyer.


I believe what he meant by 'renting books' is that libraries don't tend to charge for them. A 'rental book' place would charge a fee per book rented.

Yeah. I meant that. If you just serve people with your books without charging them, i don't think that could be crime in anywhere, if it would happen then we wouldn't be allowed even giving our books to our friends.

[Fango]

Yes, but they do pay for membership so it's the same concept. The difference is that they're charged by time and not by quantity. I will go ahead and ask a lawyer, and see how that turns out. Better yet, I can go to a local library here and ask librarians...unless someone has professional input, but I think I'm gonna do it anyway for my own peace of mind

[papayahed]

The library doesn't charge a membership fee. The only fee a library charges is late fees. Oh and sometimes for the new books they'll charge a daily rate, like a nickel or something.



Where's Night when you need her??? She'll have the low down on libraries.

[kilted exile]

What kind of library charges for membership? I have never had to pay a membership fee to join a library (with the exception of the included charge within tuition fees at college) If you are going to be charging a membership fee, you will have a lot more problems with copyright as you will be making money off of the intellectual property of others.

[Fango]

What? I'm very VERY confused here. Are you telling me that all libraries around the world are basically free for everyone, and that you just have to return the book on time?

How do they get their money back then? How do they pay librarians? Unless all libraries run by the government bodies?


you will have a lot more problems with copyright as you will be making money off of the intellectual property of others.

Hence the thread! I'm not naive to the fact I'm gonna need permissions-- I thought that's how libraries work, and so I pondered here the difficulties of acquire those permissions. However, if you're telling me libraries don't work that way, that's okay. Just a HUGE wake-up call for me indeed. Though just so you won't think less of me, it's really more about the spread-of-knowledge than me making money (I'm not a businessman), I just want to have enough money to keep it running but I certainly don't have enough money nor will ever probably to keep a library going for free. I'm all in for philanthropy, particularly when it concerns English literature, but that is way beyond me.

[Dark Star]

Most libraries (excluding university libraries) work off of government grants and use those to pay librarians, grab new books, and stuff like that. They also get by on donations of books and other items from others and volunteer work. There are some that charge membership, however. I've heard of a few in New York doing that but none around here do (the one in my home town charged $3 per library card, $5 if you lost one, however).

[Fango]

Well, I'm getting some conflicting messages here.

IIRC the local library here also charges membership fee, which is why I thought all libraries operate this way. I'm tremedously tremedously curious to know how do libraries work. Do the government pay the publication companies? Do the publication companies just authorize a permission that all governmental libraries are allowed to have their books stock? I'm not criticizing the way things work at that field and I certainly wouldn't like to make money of other people intellectual property without their knowing of it and explicit permission. I'm just really really curious at this point.


Either way, getting back to my intentions it seems I'm way in over my head here. If it is indeed a ridiculous idea that I should make an income for running a private library by all accounts, then I'll leave the field of libraries to the government and wish them good luck. Plan B is to run an English-only bookstore/thrift-shop, even though it doesn't have the same uniting effects as libraries do.

[Logos]

I'd say the best place to start would be find out about copyright laws in your own country, they can vary greatly from one to the next.

Maybe contact other libraries in your area? Here in Canada, besides libraries connected with institutions like schools, colleges, and universities, (which are tax-payer funded or included in tuition costs) there are not-for-profit municipally, provincially, and federally run public libraries, archives, and other such repositories of public information.

Some do charge fees, like late or past-due fees, but they are minimal, say, if you don't attend a university you can still pay a monthly or yearly fee to access their services. If you want to access a city public library but don't live in that city there is a nominal yearly fee. I can't think of any other situation where one would pay to borrow books here.

[Logos]

IIRC the local library here also charges membership fee, which is why I thought all libraries operate this way.
Well, you could approach them and ask how their system works?


Do the government pay the publication companies? Do the publication companies just authorize a permission that all governmental libraries are allowed to have their books stock?
Again, it will be different for diff. countries, find out how it works in your country.


Plan B is to run an English-only bookstore/thrift-shop, even though it doesn't have the same uniting effects as libraries do.
Well, if you're not in it for profit, that might be a great way to do it :) There is a local organisation here (again no money is charged though) where people can take a book from their collection, but they have to give one too. A barter system.

[Whifflingpin]

If you buy a book, then it is yours to read for yourself, or to rent out. Copyright prevents you from copying the book, including, for instance, scanning it and storing the images on a disk (I think that is what is meant by "storage retrieval system." It does not mean storing the book on a shelf and then retrieving it to lend to someone.)

Subscription libraries used to be the usual kind of libraries in England, at least, and probably in most of Europe and America, until the end of the nineteenth century, when free libraries became common along with free schooling. People using the library would either pay an annual fee, or a small fee for borrowing the book, or both.

Not uncommon, in England at present, are second-hand bookshops that sell books (usually cheap paperbacks) and then accept them back again at a slightly lower price - so these shops are really circulating libraries.

[Fango]

Oh dear oh dear-- Still getting conflicting messages! I'm not too surprised actually, I figured it's an interesting issue with interesting answers. It appears to only way to find out real solid answers though would indeed be to go to that local library in my vicinity and ask the librarian there.


Well, if you're not in it for profit, that might be a great way to do it There is a local organisation here (again no money is charged though) where people can take a book from their collection, but they have to give one too. A barter system.

Well, it truly is a nice idea, but not the grand idea I had in mind. I was hoping that's the only thing I'd do: run a library-- And basically give my heart for it and get paid mostly just enough to keep it running. After today I am somewhat discouraged if it's even possible. It is why I originally asked for the level of difficulty, not level of impossibility. I'm willing to do a lot to make this dream come true, but it's all too confusing at this point.

And I never liked plan B that much by the way. At the moment I have some research to do I suppose. First thing in the morning I'll go ask about.


PS And indeed, Whiff, now that I think of it-- I personally believe that any book you buy should be yours to rent out.

[SleepyWitch]

What kind of library charges for membership?

the one in my town does. over here, libraries are run and funded by the city councils, not by the central government. the councils' budgets plummeted a couple of years ago due to some changes in taxation, so they can't afford free libraries any longer

[Aiculík]

I don't think it's very good idea to do your research on libraries on Internet. Every country has its own laws and rules. For example, there are no free libraries in Slovakia. There is annual membership fee - and some of them are rather expensive (for a library). I'm in several libraries and in total I pay some 20 EUR every year just for membership.

There is difference between borrowing books to few friends and establishing a library. You'll need wide range of books - and one copy of the book won't be enough, especially if the book is very popular, like e.g. Harry Potter. You'll need to contact publishing houses, make agreements with them (so obviously they would know about your library...). Even if you get some grant, you'll still have to do that by yourself. Plus, you'll have to employ few people... so it is necessary it is officially, legally registered. Not only it would enable you to ask for grants (thus cutting your costs), but it is also important because of levies and contributions connected to employment... that's also different in each country.

There's quite a lot of issues you'll have to consider - from legal to quite practical about place, employees, transport etc... so I'd really suggest to contact some lawyer and also someone experienced, who could give you some advice on starting business (even if they don't run library but some other business).

I must say I admire you - that's not an easy task you've decided to do. I hope everything will go right. Good luck.

[subterranean]

Hi, Fango.

Even though Aiculík stated that it is not a very good idea to search the net, I do think it's quite useful to know a little bit deeper about copyright law and library. Not sure whether you have seen this though http://www.librarylaw.com/Copyright_and_Libraries.html, but I see some contacts there that may be useful for you.

The discussion on membership fee led me to check my country's national library. I was sure that there's a membership fee (and I'm right, I need to pay to be a member) but what shocked me was when I found out that I must at least have a high school education to be eligible as a member :eek2:

[Nightshade]

A library simply needs books. You don't need copyright to have a library. What is your concern with copyright? Libraries are great- good luck with your endeavor.

Not true actually most public libraries aquire their books through certain companies which they have contracts with. This is because somewhere in these contracts is the 'rental' agreements publishers and authors dont work for free you know.

The library doesn't charge a membership fee. The only fee a library charges is late fees. Oh and sometimes for the new books they'll charge a daily rate, like a nickel or something.



Where's Night when you need her??? She'll have the low down on libraries.

I know I miss all the interesting stuff stupid RL! Actually it depends on your 'library' the library Fango is talking about setting up and the one Im also thinking of would not be a 'public' library as such. The exsistance of 'public libraries other than the ancient times one is realitivley new and its only 'free' because your taxes pay for them They are considered a public convience.

Now another point is a 'public' library in Israel or egypt for that matter would only be required to supply books in the national languge(s) if such a law exsist and Fango is interested in an all English so it would be a busness library sort of like a rental place. And these usally in my experiance have been a years membership fee.

What kind of library charges for membership? I have never had to pay a membership fee to join a library (with the exception of the included charge within tuition fees at college) If you are going to be charging a membership fee, you will have a lot more problems with copyright as you will be making money off of the intellectual property of others.

Again actually in the UK take Manchester libraries if you do not live in their redicolusly small catchment area or are member of the manchester universities the membership fee is £24 a month. Thats because by law they are only required to supply free membership to those within their stated area.


What? I'm very VERY confused here. Are you telling me that all libraries around the world are basically free for everyone, and that you just have to return the book on time?

How do they get their money back then? How do they pay librarians? Unless all libraries run by the government bodies?



Hence the thread! I'm not naive to the fact I'm gonna need permissions-- I thought that's how libraries work, and so I pondered here the difficulties of acquire those permissions. However, if you're telling me libraries don't work that way, that's okay. Just a HUGE wake-up call for me indeed. Though just so you won't think less of me, it's really more about the spread-of-knowledge than me making money (I'm not a businessman), I just want to have enough money to keep it running but I certainly don't have enough money nor will ever probably to keep a library going for free. I'm all in for philanthropy, particularly when it concerns English literature, but that is way beyond me.

Again yes it would be a buisness and I dont how permissions would work you could probably get some gov funding but I wouldnt count on iot fee s are the best way ahhh CILIP is a good source of info to ask.
My memebership should be comming through in a couple of week plus Im back at uni Ill probably start looking this up as one of my courses this year deals with the buisness side of libaraies and proffessional contexts of information managing and public distribution.


Oh dear oh dear-- Still getting conflicting messages! I'm not too surprised actually, I figured it's an interesting issue with interesting answers. It appears to only way to find out real solid answers though would indeed be to go to that local library in my vicinity and ask the librarian there.



Well, it truly is a nice idea, but not the grand idea I had in mind. I was hoping that's the only thing I'd do: run a library-- And basically give my heart for it and get paid mostly just enough to keep it running. After today I am somewhat discouraged if it's even possible. It is why I originally asked for the level of difficulty, not level of impossibility. I'm willing to do a lot to make this dream come true, but it's all too confusing at this point.

And I never liked plan B that much by the way. At the moment I have some research to do I suppose. First thing in the morning I'll go ask about.


PS And indeed, Whiff, now that I think of it-- I personally believe that any book you buy should be yours to rent out.

You could probably do with a degree in libarainship not that many left in the world sadly..I think its 5 in the uk. none in the US and 3 or something in Canada-- australia have a couple as well I think.