comics and books: watchmen

[joan carles]

I'm reading a comic book titled Watchmen. I knew that this is a classic comic book and I had read a lot of good critics about it. And the true is that I like it very, very much: for me, it has a very good scriptplay (written by Alan Moore, the same scriptplayer of both the comic and the film V for Vendetta) and also a very good drawings (in a very classical style but, I think, very, very, cool). It has nothing to do with the comic books which speak about superheroes in a simple and typical way. On the contrary, it speaks of superheroes in a way, how to say it, more adult; I would day in more novelist way. Definitely, I recommend it to you.

My question is: what do you think about comic books? That is, comic books are only for children or do you think that they are an adult way of artistic expression and aimed to everybody?

Best wishes from Barcelona (Catalonia, Spain)

Joan Carles.

[RobinHood3000]

Well, that depends largely on how one views Watchmen. Hardcore connoisseurs distinguish between "comic books" and "graphic novels." The former is the stereotypical, serialized short episodes most people think of when "superheroes" and "read" appear in the same sentence. Graphic novels, in which Alan Moore seems to specialize, are essentially novels that are delivered in a fully-illustrated or near-fully-illustrated format, such as Watchmen or V For Vendetta. It has a single plot arc, and is delivered as such, generally resolving the conflict by the end of the novel and only rarely with regards to allowing continuity beyond the primary arc.

Alan Moore makes no bones about writing graphic novels on a deeper level than most, although this is not to say that comic books are juvenile. Comic books have had a long history (with Green Arrow and his family in particular) of addressing important social issues that children usually do not yet have to deal with. Graphic novels, however, are more literary, with all the symbols, motifs, themes, and deeper meanings of traditional novels. V For Vendetta, for example, was an Orwellian commentary on the role of government (but not originally, as some of the film's fans would like to believe, on the American government in particular). Bottom line, comic books and especially graphic novels are not only appropriate for an adult audience, but are in every way a fully legitimate form of expression on a more-than-pedestrian level.

[Aiculík]

There are comics for children, for adults and few that can be enjoyed by both kids and adults.

For example, Astérix is loved by children for nice, colourful pictures and interesting plot and funny characters, but only adult can understand all hints and allusions.

Many modern comics for adults tend to be "highly artistic", which usually means that drawings are awfully ugly. :D Personally I prefer Italian and French artists, such as Max Bunker, Hugo Pratt, Max Cabanes, or Albert Uderzo.

While comics can be so demanding as books - simply because there are pictures that can explain a lot, it definitely can be and is a form of art.

[mtpspur]

Having read and collected comic books steadily since 1958 I believe they are a great method of helping children read and increase their vocabulary. The visuals enable the reader to see how the words and pictures supply information to the reader on the direction or plot of the story as it unfolds. Hopefully it sparks creativity though in my case I'm mentally lazy and I found all the good ideas were done and done well.

Alan Moore is a great starting place for a writer who sawthe possibilities for comics to say and mean more to the human condition starting with his MArvelman, V for Vendetta, DC's Swamp Thing, etc. Reading Watchmen is even more enjoyable if you know they were originally meant to be based on the old Charlton heroes DC had purchased. The Question = Rorschach, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) = Night Owl, etc. Personally like the series up to #11 only being let doen by the 'master plan'.

As one gets older and moves to the 'graphic novel'--a term I personally dislike as I take it as a cover for the current audience trying to avoid the 'stigma' attached to being caught reading and loving the things (at least back in the 60s--now it's totally cool and they are out of the closet so to speak.) My mother-in-law (in Heaven now) NEVER understood the appeal of those 'colored pieces of paper'. My father despaired of my manhood I assure you. I quit caring what other people thought it years ago. Took the long suffering wife years to accept them in the house. asically I paid my dues. Bitter--you bet.

I collect and read a fairly wide range. Batman, Judge Dredd (for an American I have a huge number of 2000 ADs from England), Felix the Cat, Avengers, Jonah Hex, King of the Royal Mounted, Dick Tracy etc.. Used to have much more.

Bottom line--if you like them--read them--if you don't then don't read them.

Sorry about the rant--Robinhood says it so much better than I.

Re: V for Vendetta--was originally published in an English magaziine caled Warrior circa 1985 or so (partially) then finally finished by DC Comics years later and I always thought it was slam on the British much like Judge Dredd taking place in the USA but with a British sense of humor and drama.

Hope this helps. Unable to keep from ranting--I love these things regardless of what others feel.

[JADJARHD]

You might try a three issue series from the late eighties called Hawkworld. It contains literally one of the most compelling character arcs I have ever seen. (The villian kinda sucks though.)

[mtpspur]

You might try a three issue series from the late eighties called Hawkworld. It contains literally one of the most compelling character arcs I have ever seen. (The villian kinda sucks though.)

Actually collected Hawkworld and the subsequent series although a little dismayed by this reinvention of the 60s version of Hawkman and this began a major convulution of the character. The more DC tinkered with it the more confusion. I take my DC Universe chronology seriously. It did succeed in getting him noticed.

[Stieg]

Great thread. Just wanted to add, some prefer comic books and graphic novels over other forms of lit with a legitimate advocacy not that opposite contention is ever valid, no.

[Thatch]

My question is: what do you think about comic books? That is, comic books are only for children or do you think that they are an adult way of artistic expression and aimed to everybody?

When I used to visit the comic store it wasn't all that uncommon to find more adults looking around than teenagers!

[crisaor]

Reading Watchmen is even more enjoyable if you know they were originally meant to be based on the old Charlton heroes DC had purchased. The Question = Rorschach, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) = Night Owl, etc. Personally like the series up to #11 only being let doen by the 'master plan'.
Indeed. At first they were going to be those heroes from Charlton, but when the story was developed enough, the DC executives cringed at how that english maniac made those characters look. Seeing it would be a waste to have bought the characters just to be used in such a way, they put them in the DC continuity (in one of the many Earths in the original Crisis saga) and they just used copies of those for Watchmen. Some of the key elements remained though, such as some powers or relationships between the characters.
Completing your list, Captain Atom=Dr. Manhattan, Silk Spectre=Nightshade, Peacemaker=Comedian, Peter Cannon=Ozymandias.

And I'd also add Asterix to the great all-time list.

[JADJARHD]

Actually collected Hawkworld and the subsequent series although a little dismayed by this reinvention of the 60s version of Hawkman and this began a major convulution of the character. The more DC tinkered with it the more confusion. I take my DC Universe chronology seriously. It did succeed in getting him noticed.


I was never really into DC. I just picked up Hawkworld because it looked neat. I got hooked by the way the protaganist disgraced then redemeed himself. However, if they had done something like that with an established character that I had actually cared about, I probably would have been upset.

Its kind of a shame really that comics got so much bigger in the early ninties while the stories got smaller. I can't even remember the last time I bought a comic. By the time one was spending $3.00 for each new issue and the actually books were getting smaller with lame stories I moved on.

[Stieg]

JADJARHD,

I remember the early nineties comic boom, that is when all the writers and artists went independent with entities like Image Comics featuring the smashing series Spawn.

Knightfall running story in Batman, Death of Superman, Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man and Spawn was wreaking havoc on sales. The X-Men by Jim Lee and its offshoots got way more mature with adult storylines.

I confess I have been out of the loop a long, long, long time but I miss those weekly trips for a dozen or two comics. And elation of a sure hit new title.

Anyone recall any particular issue(s) of any title(s) that has alot of significance to them or were unforgettable?

I have to say one particular issue from my teen years blew me away, and that is Alpha Flight #12 Volume 1 (http://www.comicvine.com/comic/alpha-flight/3217/24495/&i=14616) "And One Shall Surely Die!"

That was one of the best superhero throwdowns I ever had the pleasure of reading especially the very dramatic climax with the panel by panel countdown. Does anybody recall this issue?

EDIT: And of course all the issues by Frank Miller on Daredevil, Bullseye, and Elektra storylines during the 80s especially the legendary smackdown between Bullseye and Elektra in issue #181 volume 1.

[JCamilo]

The Image boom was not that big deal. After all that the only impressive thing that lasted was mcfarlene toys. Once or while there is a breakdown from some artists from the Marvel/DC duo, they won't be the first, Jim Starlim, Howard Chaykin, Neal Adams, they all had their momments
The real boom is the middle/end of 80's when Frank Miller and Alan Moore lead the creation of the concept of Graphic Novels and this still stands.
The Graphic Novels did not only inoved by the narrative but they allowed artists such Bill Sienkiewicz to find place for their illustrations that would hardly fit easily in the usual comic books. In a small period of 4 years we had Dark Knight Returns, Watchman, Killing Joke, Electra and finally Sandman, that although a montly comic, the style was totally Alan Moore's.
The only thing alike those creations after it were the Sin City series and Alex Ross contribution with Marvels and Kingdom Come.

[Stieg]

Oh, I am not quite so sure, if the local demographic is an indicator. During the early 90s there were several large Comic Book shops in the local area and surrounding counties with flocks of customers, marquee posters everywhere showcasing McFarlane's Batman, McFarlane's Spider-Man, McFarlane's Spawn, Lee's The X-Men, Liefield's X-Force, Frank Miller's Sin City, etc.

Now there is only one remaining in my city and I don't think it will be the same again ever.

EDIT: had the artist/writer names rearranged. McFarlane is seen as one of the biggest reasons for the Nineties comic boom with his own Spider-Man #1 title with variant covers sold over 3 million copy and the Spawn #1 being the top selling independent comic of all time selling over a 1 million copies. Also his work with DC comics' Batman titles should not be overlooked either where his unique artistic style on the Dark Knight was evident in the conception and design of Spawn.

[JADJARHD]

Besides the previously mentioned Hawkworld, Watchmen, and The Killing Joke there were a few that remember foundly.

A one shot called Spider-man vs. Wolverine was really great in that it teamed up perhaps the most jaded hero with the most idealistic. While Spider-man struggled to live up to his morals despite the fact that they were exposed to him as weaknesses, you got the sense that Wolverine actually wished he were more like Spidey. Very good under the surface tension. Also you have to swear that Peter Parker went to therapy for months after this.

X-men had some great stories in the early eighties. Dark Phoenix and Days of Futures Past were among the best ever. (Unfortunatly they went back to both those wells way to many times.)

Kraven's last hunt was a really nice dark and brooding story.

I know there were a bunch more that I am forgeting about.

[Stieg]

Grant Morrison, Chuck Dixon, and Alan Grant brought about the darkest brooding Batman ever. Can't forget their momumental work in DC Comics. Likewise as mentioned before Alan Moore and Frank Miller too.

The Alpha Flight storyline is actually a two part story beginning in issue #11 and climaxing in issue #12, where the villain team of Omega Flight, and boy they are a real cast of freaks and scroundrels lay a trap for one of the Alpha team members. Represents one of the best super hero deaths ever. Unfortunately, later in the same series the creative team behind the title break the rules and actually bring the hero back with a alien subplot... but we'll ignore that chapter PLEASE. :D

[JADJARHD]

Grant Morrison, Chuck Dixon, and Alan Grant brought about the darkest brooding Batman ever. Can't forget their momumental work in DC Comics. Likewise as mentioned before Alan Moore and Frank Miller too.

The Alpha Flight storyline is actually a two part story beginning in issue #11 and climaxing in issue #12, where the villain team of Omega Flight, and boy they are a real cast of freaks and scroundrels lay a trap for one of the Alpha team members. Represents one of the best super hero deaths ever. Unfortunately, later in the same series the creative team behind the title break the rules and actually bring the hero back with a alien subplot... but we'll ignore that chapter PLEASE. :D

Sounds like the way they ruined the Dark Phoenix story by Jean Grey back to life.

[JCamilo]

Marvel/DC and a few others made a really bad deal with the distribution with Diamond (if i am not mistaken) and that is a big factor in the reduction of stores.
But mostly, I wasn't meaning comercial wise, nothing the image did was remontly alike Jim Lee's X-men or MacFarlene's Spiderman, but those two are just a repetition of John Romita and John Byrne.
The entire "rebellion" of image had the impulse of the artist have the power and it is mainly due the real revolution that was the status likes of Miller, Moore, Sienkiewicz, Gaiman managed to set.
In the end, what happened after one year of Image ? Marvel managed to find a new generation or artists, the majority of titles of Image ended because most of team are clear rip-offs of DC/Marvel, just with more violence (one of the few Originals, The Maxx was hardly such popular title) and Jim Lee, Rob Liefield, etc returned to Marvel/DC where they promissed they would never.
Trully the one major artists input of the 90's was the massive influence of manga, which was also started a decade before by Frank Miller.

[hastalavictoria]

I am a huge comic book fan (I work in a comic book store). Comics are for adults, for the most part. It is a common misconception. Many comics are, like the Watchmen, extremely deep and advanced, though I will say many are simple, black and white "kill the bad guy" types. Some, lesser known comic creators such as Daniel Clowes, are simply amazing and depict the world as it is. (one of his comics was made into a movie...Ghost World...though he has made other movies...I haven't heard good reviews about them.)
Most comics deal with extremely adult themes such as discrimination (X-men). I must say, Watchmen was a fantastic place to start, it revolutionized the world of comics, making them less black and white. Hopefully you will continue to read them!
**They are making a movie out of the Watchmen ...next year I think. Hopefully it wont be as bad as the other comic movies...

[Lyn]

Reading comic books is the only way politics/history sticks in my dumb head - Maus, Madame Persepolis.

[JADJARHD]

**They are making a movie out of the Watchmen ...next year I think. Hopefully it wont be as bad as the other comic movies...

You know my favorite comic book movie is Unbreakable. I know it was not based on a specific comic, but you can't deny that it was a comic book movie. There were a couple of minor flaws in the movie but it was great overall. (Kind of like most great comics.)

[Stieg]

When comic strips and serials made the transition to comic book, they were an enormous success in the 30s selling large quatities.

During World War II, comics dealing with the war and crime found many readers amongst soldiers stationed abroad whom become faithful followers.

Unfortunately comics did receive a backlash in the 50s when they were regarded as encouraging juvenile delinquency. Remember the big grand guignol EC comics scare most notably.

The 60s brought on satirizing the cultural underworld popularizing them among college students and comic books always dealt with serious subjects.

Undeniably, comics have produced great literature whether building upon modern myth or delivering an important social message, the medium successfully caters to an enthusiastic young and old audience.

And personally, my visits at the comic book stores, the adult patrons were the majority.

If I ever got back into comics I'd be willing to participate in a thread here discussing weekly releases and story developments.

[Debrasue]

Comic-Con in San Diego July 26-29,2007...Frank Miller, Zack Snyder discuss Watchmen....sorry ...link won't post...

[Bakiryu]

I love comics, japanese comics are the best I'm obbsessed with Naruto :)

[hastalavictoria]

You know my favorite comic book movie is Unbreakable. I know it was not based on a specific comic, but you can't deny that it was a comic book movie. There were a couple of minor flaws in the movie but it was great overall. (Kind of like most great comics.)

I love that movie. I guess I never thought about it as being a comic book movie, but completely is.

[Debrasue]

For those who like graphic novels and the movies they spawn....

From the professional blog: Crooked Timber

Max Vapor and the Pronunciation of Doom.

16 July, 2007. Hollywood, CA. Revolution Studios and Sony Pictures announced today that Ridley Scott would direct and Vin Diesel (as Max Vapor) would star in the adaptation of the cult graphic novel, “Max Vapor and the Pronunciation of Doom.” Michael Caine is slotted to play Vapor’s father, a professor, and Gerard Butler will take a turn as his arch-enemy, T. W. Mangrove. In the graphic novel, Mangrove attempts to steal the government’s monopoly on the use of force, so that he can seek revenge for a childhood encounter with Max Vapor’s father, who was Mangrove’s headmaster at Phillips Exeter, and who caned Mangrove silly after he overheard Mangrove remarking of Vapor Senior’s pet student, “Now there’s the face of Phillip’s exciter.” When asked about the production’s reach, studio head Joe Roth effused: “It’s ‘Harry Potter’ meets ‘Spider Man’ at a tea party with ‘The History Boys’!”
Posted by Joel Turnipseed · July 17th, 2007 at 1:49 am

Watchmen...
from the Vancouver Sun July 14, 2007

"With little fanfare, Canadian Motion Picture Park has grown into one of the largest movie studio complexes in Western Canada. Last month, CMPP opened four new stages, ranging in size from 5,000 to 22,700 square feet, which will play host to the big-budget Warner Brothers feature Watchmen well into 2008."

"In terms of scope, it will be tough to top Watchmen. The Warner Brothers movie -- a Cold War thriller which begins shooting Sept. 17 under the direction of Zach Snyder (300, Dawn of the Dead) -- will be in town until at least February 2008. In addition to the interior sets at CMPP2, it has leased a huge parcel of land near the studio on which an entire New York City exterior set will be built."

[Debrasue]

More on Watchmen....

I'm pretty certain that ComingSoon.net only displays studio-released synopses of movies. If so, the comprehensive preview site has the official plot information for Watchmen. The synopsis doesn't go into too much detail, but it gives enough background to say all it needs to. For instance, it mentions that it takes place in an alternate 1985 and that the American-Soviet relationship is very tense. It also gives Rorschach by name as seemingly the protagonist of the story, while the Comedian is referred to as "one of his former colleagues" and the rest of the 'masks' are described as "a ragtag group of retired superheroes." The last sentence of the synopsis, as could be expected, includes the following: "who is watching the watchmen?" In a couple weeks we should (hopefully) have an official cast list to go with this official synopsis. So far, we're expecting the cast to include Patrick Wilson, Billy Crudup, Jude Law, Jackie Earle Haley, Thomas Jane and Gerard Butler (I don't believe the Kate Winslet rumor at all). With director Zack Snyder expected to appear at Comic-Con, he may give more details about the plot, too.
(origianally posted by 'stefwithanf')