Do Women Have Less Self-Esteem Than Men?

[apples of gold]

I was reading my book while waiting for an appointment in the cafeteria of the teaching hospital in my city, the other day.

I was within earshot of a middle aged couple who were having their lunch and engaged in a very personal, although gentle discussion. I was able to glance at their name tags. They were both doctors with the same last name. I presume they were married. The man said to the woman “I’m not surprised you did that. You always do things like that. It’s your low self esteem.” The woman who seemed flustered, changed the subject.

I’ve heard male friends and strangers often make similar statements to or about women.

I hear women make these kinds of statements although seldom directly to other women. I hear them validate their own self esteem within the context of a discussion about other women’s behavior. I wonder if they haven’t also been told by men/society that they have low self esteem, and just what type of behavior causes men/women/society to believe this.

Do women have less self-esteem than men?

Any fiction or non-fiction references are welcome along with your comments.

[Brigitte]

This is a difficult question because I can think of so many cases of one or the other. And I don't want to make a general statement, and get attacked over it. I mean there are feminists, lesbians, shy girls, emo kids, etc. Hah, okay I'm an "emo kid" so I'd have to say some days I have super high self-esteem and other days I'm depressed.

As for men, they might have low self-esteem, but maybe about different issues?

Aiiish, it's all so circumstantial. Maybe someone else will have a much more defined answer. I'm iffy about committing to a single idea because I just don't know for sure.

[Pensive]

If anyone means to say that all women have lower self-esteem than men, I really really disagree with that! But if he means to ask about this generally, then I don't know.

[apples of gold]

I'd be interested in hearing anyone's response, whether it be a general opinion or the sharing of personal experience.

There must be fiction that is centered on or evokes the issue.

There may even be reports on the scientific study of the issue.

Although I set the question up in the form of a debate topic, there is no forum for it and had to put it in the chat section. We don't have to follow a debate format and there are no right or wrong answers. The sharing of personal experiences may be a good place to start the discussion.

Here's an interesting article of the subject entitled: Taking Advantage
Me, Myself and I: Self-Esteem and Advertising Part One of a Three Part Series http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~taflinge/esteem.html

[motherhubbard]

This is a big subject that much can be said about. I think that women have been conditioned to doubt themselves more. There are any number of examples of this. Traditional roles of men and women and attitudes have prolonged this. But here is one way of knowing who has a greater self-esteem problem: how much money do women spend on beauty products, weight loss products, fashionable cloths, plastic surgery and so on? How much do men spend? In recent years there has been a push to inflect the same self-esteem problems on men so that they can spend more money on makeup and wrinkle cream. But I still thank that as a whole, women have lower self-esteem, or are at least at a greater risk of a poor self image.

[apples of gold]

Those are good points.

I go back to the conversation I heard between the husband and wife who appeared to be telling him, with a mild dose of concern, about the day’s events. His comments caused her to stop in her tracks with a noticeable increase in frustration. I chuckle, wondering if she went out after that and bought herself some new face cream and if she would have to conceal the purchase from her husband.

If this is the conditioning you talked about, how much of this do we see in families and if females are more likely to be on the receiving end, perhaps getting it from both parents or either gender of sibling, as a control device. We can get a good idea in modern times, but in traditional society, before the fifties, we saw men’s roles typically as more controlling of women, being more content in pleasing them without nearly so much vain quest to improve. There now appears to be less control of women in the family and more control of them by society through advertising. What if anything has changed? Is it tied to a desire to nurture and please men and a lower self-esteem just goes along with that?

[Brigitte]

Well, since you mentioned the 50s... during those times, "sexy" women were those with the classic pinup body shape (Marilyn Monroe). These days, "sexy" is ... like 1/3 the size of the ideal 50s body. So I'd say women have a tougher job reaching these ideal body sizes. So there's definitely more pressure and with that can come lower self-esteem. Whereas, with men I don't think there's an "ideal body type" aside from being fit. Expectations haven't changed too much, other than in fashion. Men can easily buy today's fashion, but women have to fit in today's fashion just to buy it.

The environment can definitely cause for lower self-esteem. I mean, some families aren't so nice (abuse) and that can affect anyone's self esteem, male or female.

[Turk]

What if i say it's a supremacy of women, they are more altruist and generous than men?

[Shalot]

What if i say it's a supremacy of women, they are more altruist and generous than men?

I would say that 1) you are a woman disguised as a man or 2) you are a man trying to get on a woman's good side.

Actually, just ignore me. It's Saturday night and I generally don't have anything worthwhile to contribute on a Sat night.

[Turk]

Who says being so self-esteem is a good thing. I am just showing you good side of that, you are altruist and generous respectable women.

[apples of gold]

I would say that 1) you are a woman disguised as a man or 2) you are a man trying to get on a woman's good side.

Actually, just ignore me. It's Saturday night and I generally don't have anything worthwhile to contribute on a Sat night.

Shalot you crack me up!!

Turk you've got on my good side with that one, for the next say, 3 posts of yours. Way to go.

[papayahed]

hmm interesting, this ties into, slightly, into a point brought up in another thread about the sexyness of women.

I remember in high school a study that was done about seperating boys and girls in schools. The study said that girls did better without boys around. (The study was touted in my school since it was all girls) Anywho, when hearing about the study it reminded me vivdly of grade school, I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.

Little things such as that can have an impact on self esteem.

[Mortis Anarchy]

hmm interesting, this ties into, slightly, into a point brought up in another thread about the sexyness of women.

I remember in high school a study that was done about seperating boys and girls in schools. The study said that girls did better without boys around. (The study was touted in my school since it was all girls) Anywho, when hearing about the study it reminded me vivdly of grade school, I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.

Little things such as that can have an impact on self esteem.



That study only showed that in mathmatics...but boys, in an english class did better with no girls. They are doing that at my school in some classes.

[Virgil]

Those are good points.

I go back to the conversation I heard between the husband and wife who appeared to be telling him, with a mild dose of concern, about the day’s events. His comments caused her to stop in her tracks with a noticeable increase in frustration. I chuckle, wondering if she went out after that and bought herself some new face cream and if she would have to conceal the purchase from her husband.

If this is the conditioning you talked about, how much of this do we see in families and if females are more likely to be on the receiving end, perhaps getting it from both parents or either gender of sibling, as a control device. We can get a good idea in modern times, but in traditional society, before the fifties, we saw men’s roles typically as more controlling of women, being more content in pleasing them without nearly so much vain quest to improve. There now appears to be less control of women in the family and more control of them by society through advertising. What if anything has changed? Is it tied to a desire to nurture and please men and a lower self-esteem just goes along with that?

Look I agree that women in general probably have lower self esteem than men, and I'm sure that some of it comes through experience. But I think some of it is innate as well. Boys are just more active and cocky and exertive than girls and I think this is part of how self esteem is formed. But I do sympathize with you ladies. There are interesting studies of girls who go to all girls schools where they tend to become more assertive than girls who don't. Being away from and not having to compete with hyperactive boys seems to help their self esteem.

edit: Just saw Papaya's post about separating boys and girls. She seems to agree with me.

[Mortis Anarchy]

Look I agree that women in general probably have lower self esteem than men, and I'm sure that some of it comes through experience. But I think some of it is innate as well. Boys are just more active and cocky and exertive than girls and I think this is part of how self esteem is formed. But I do sympathize with you ladies. There are interesting studies of girls who go to all girls schools where they tend to become more assertive than girls who don't. Being away from and not having to compete with hyperactive boys seems to help their self esteem.

edit: Just saw Papaya's post about separating boys and girls. She seems to agree with me.


I agree with you, but even then, there are quite a few girls who are just as cocky and exertive...but I think everyone is different. I'm more cocky and crazy and active then most of my male friends as well as female, but I think its because I'm comfortable with them. But even when I first meet people, I tend to be a little bit not cocky but with more confidence and shyness as well.

I think I would get bored if there were no guys in my classes...some of you boys out there are pretty entertaining! Girls also!

:D Girl Power:D

[Virgil]

I agree with you, but even then, there are quite a few girls who are just as cocky and exertive...but I think everyone is different. I'm more cocky and crazy and active then most of my male friends as well as female, but I think its because I'm comfortable with them. But even when I first meet people, I tend to be a little bit not cocky but with more confidence and shyness as well.

I think I would get bored if there were no guys in my classes...some of you boys out there are pretty entertaining! Girls also!

:D Girl Power:D

I hear you, but I think it's a question of numbers. More boys are hyperactive and aggressive than girls. There are some girls, I guess you :D , who are active, and there are some boys that inhibited. It's like height. There are some girls that are taller than boys, but in general boys are taller.

But go girl power!:D I'm not intimidated by girls with umph. ;)

[apples of gold]

Even though there are many shared characteristics, we seem to agree that something in our genetic makeup makes females behave differently from boys. In Western civilizations there's a lot of pressure on women to excel in the work place and the education system has tried different things to encourage their success. Seems to be the same old problem of survival with less focus on a cozy family environment. At first I'm inclined to think Wow! haven't women adapted quite well to all this, having uteruses, taking care of children and husbands, as well as holding down demanding jobs. But with a better jobs comes money for nannies, etc, in effect removing part of the load. So have women really adapted?

The conversation between the husband and wife, along with the other problems mentioned, tell me neither sex has adapted very well to their changing roles over the last 50 years. Would it be better to stay with traditional roles?

[Brigitte]

When you say traditional I think of mothers without a say in the family, arranged marriages, one less income in the family, and younger women getting married (oh-wait! this already happens) :lol:

Do you think there will eventually be equality everywhere? I hope so. I remain hopeful for the future.

I'm addicted to the :lol: smiley. Eep!

[Pensive]

hmm interesting, this ties into, slightly, into a point brought up in another thread about the sexyness of women.

I remember in high school a study that was done about seperating boys and girls in schools. The study said that girls did better without boys around. (The study was touted in my school since it was all girls) Anywho, when hearing about the study it reminded me vivdly of grade school, I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.

Little things such as that can have an impact on self esteem.

I totally agree with you here, papaya. I don't think that it's just that women have this in them or it's an attribute of them - lower self-esteem, but because of the culture/social behaviour/society/sometimes some religion/mistakes of teacher and parents, many of them get this idea that they are not as good as men.

For example I have this friend, a very studious girl she is, gets the highest marks in our class at times, but she really thinks women are weak. She thinks whatever women do they can't bring themselves equal to men. I have also seen it by my very own eyes, mothers trying to teach their girl child about the moods of men and all that. Many fields are not considered good for women. Things are generalised for women like they are weak, they are chatter-boxes, can't do anything other than that, etc... In many cultures (I think most of them), a woman is dependant on a man. In many places, even an educated woman can't fight for her own rights. What would she think of herself in such a situation? Below the opposite gender which is able to make his own decisions of course.

Oh my goodness, instead of thinking it as women's attribute, it would be better if we think it the other way: it's not a part of them. It's inflicted on many from which even some escape. I don't think that a way too much self-esteem is a good thing by the way, but there should be enough to think that your gender, race and religion doesn't put you beneath anybody else.

[papayahed]

Look I agree that women in general probably have lower self esteem than men, and I'm sure that some of it comes through experience. But I think some of it is innate as well. Boys are just more active and cocky and exertive than girls and I think this is part of how self esteem is formed. But I do sympathize with you ladies. There are interesting studies of girls who go to all girls schools where they tend to become more assertive than girls who don't. Being away from and not having to compete with hyperactive boys seems to help their self esteem.

edit: Just saw Papaya's post about separating boys and girls. She seems to agree with me.


Virgie!! We do agree!!

I've read a book about gender roles in the work place it was SO dead on. I found myself saying "Holy Carp" many times throughtout the book. A good example is that women are taught to get along and cooperte, when we were kids we girls played house or dolls - no winner no loser. Boys played guns and sports - a definate winner and loser. That translates to the business world were men are better equiped to deal with conflict at work - men will fight to get there point accross, women will compromise for the sake of peace. Neither is bad but in an all male boardroom compromise is seen as weakness.

There have been many times in my formative years were I have held back, as not raise my hand in class, not done as well as I could in school or sports so that I wouldn't do better then a boy. A lot of times it was because I wanted him to like me other times it was because I didn't want to him to feel bad. I was taught to worry about the feelings of others. A lot of my friends, if not all did the same thing. I'm sure this didn't have a positve impact on my self esteem.

This also brings up the point of sexiness, as somebody mentioned men like to be the "knight in shining armor". I will always let a man kill the bugs and lift heavy things but pretty much everything else I have under control. Should one pretend otherwise to make the guy feel needed? I also know this has had an effect on my relatioships I have many examples but a really great and totally blatant one comes to mind: I met a guy at a bar who happened to be a math major, at first we got along just fine until we had a difference of opinion - then he started talking about how all his friends that flunked out of the math program would just go to engineering. He repeated this several times to make sure I was aware that his major was "more smart" then mine. What a yashhie, we never talked again.

Now that I think about it I always date men that are older then I am, make more, and have higher positions. Coincidence?

Of course I'm speaking of myself and my experiences, as well as some of my friends this isn't a generalization.

[Brigitte]

Well, Papaya, I don't think there's anything wrong with dating older men - they just might look better to you. And... if they have higher positions, then just maybe they make lots o' money. (; So those could just be coincidences, but I definitely see your point. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but I think men would feel intimidated if their gf/wife made more money or had a higher position. The real kick is that most men and women play by these roles and agree to them, so we're sort of stuck in a loop. It's just like height - most men aren't willing to date a woman taller than him. Confidence issues? :rolleyes: Heh, but also... women don't want to date shorter men (so short girls have the more to pick from hehe) because they need a MAN. *shrugs*

[BibliophileTRJ]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?


I can clearly remember in one class all the boys sat in the front of the class and the girls in the back. Seating was assigned by the teacher.

At the time we didn't think about it but looking back, and I don't think is was a concsious decision on the teacthers part, the message being sent was that the boys were more important.


Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.

[plainjane]

But here is one way of knowing who has a greater self-esteem problem: how much money do women spend on beauty products, weight loss products, fashionable cloths, plastic surgery and so on? How much do men spend? In recent years there has been a push to inflect the same self-esteem problems on men so that they can spend more money on makeup and wrinkle cream. But I still thank that as a whole, women have lower self-esteem, or are at least at a greater risk of a poor self image.

I can't agree that self-adornment would be an accurate indicator of self-esteem, at least along the sexual divide. There have been periods in history that it has been socially acceptable for men to "adorn" [I use the term very loosely] themselves with make-up, jewelery and fashionable clothes.....and they did so, full tilt.
That particular indicator is more telling of the place in history we occupy.

That said, I have to think that any woman's lack of self-esteem in any time period is dependent on her personality, genetic make-up and environment and therefore practically impossible to come under any blanket statement.

[papayahed]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?



Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.

There was only 24 of us it wasn't like she couln't keep control, actually this was the just most obvious example.

[Scheherazade]

If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman around to hear him... Is he still wrong?Men rarely need to be in women's company to be wrong... or speak, for that matter! :p
Papaya, in this instance I think it probably had more to do with the boys needing closer supervision.... not being more important. At that age, if you put the boys in the back of the class it becomes a zoo.Agree.

[plainjane]

Should one pretend otherwise to make the guy feel needed?
Not IMO. So much depends on the circumstances in which we were raised. I was raised in a one-parent home, the parent being my mother, as my dad died early on. We had to do things ourselves, there was no "big strong male" to call on to do basically what we did not want to do. So I've always had the attitude I could do what I had to do.

When I see women play "the game" to get what they want, frankly I find it disheartening. And sometimes even demeaning.
But that's another thread. :crash: :p

[Walter]

Should women have lower self esteem than men? Absolutely not! And I can't hope for the day rapidly enough when none do.

A. Man

[BibliophileTRJ]

I think the bottom line is that men's self-esteem is just as crappy as women's; but from the earliest age men are taught to HIDE any signs of weakness. Men MAY NOT SHOW self-doubt lest they be seen as less of a man.

[papayahed]

I think the bottom line is that men's self-esteem is just as crappy as women's; but from the earliest age men are taught to HIDE any signs of weakness. Men MAY NOT SHOW self-doubt lest they be seen as less of a man.

That's true.

[motherhubbard]

I can't agree that self-adornment would be an accurate indicator of self-esteem, at least along the sexual divide. There have been periods in history that it has been socially acceptable for men to "adorn" [I use the term very loosely] themselves with make-up, jewelery and fashionable clothes.....and they did so, full tilt.
That particular indicator is more telling of the place in history we occupy.

That said, I have to think that any woman's lack of self-esteem in any time period is dependent on her personality, genetic make-up and environment and therefore practically impossible to come under any blanket statement.

I don’t think that adornment necessarily equals low self esteem, in fact it could mean the opposite. I do think that many men can lean way back to button their pants under their enormous pregnant looking bellies and then look at the sexy devil in the mirror. Where as even skinny women think they look fat and have to turn and see how big their butts look in those pants. I think that there are many examples like this, but that it is changing. Grey on a man used to look distinguishing, wrinkles around the eyes made them look more knowledgeable, rough hands were a sign of a hard worker… mow men color, apply eye cream, and get manicures. I’m not saying they are wrong to do it, I’m just wondering what happened to make them think they are no longer OK the way they were. Women are constantly bombarded with messages that say in order to be sexy or loved one must fit into this little tiny mold and smile about it. I think that not having to worry about measuring up to Matthew McConaughey and the ability to pee standing up without getting any on their shoes are the two great advantages of being a man. Do men really want to give that up, or are they starting to feel the pressure?

[apples of gold]

It seems self-esteem is not all about looks or self-image but how people relate themselves to others and how they interpret the expectations that others have of them.

I'm probably dating myself here, but the book How to Be an Assertive (Not Aggressive) Woman in Life, in Love, and on the Job by Jean Baer, was written to address what she considered was an overcompensation by some women to resolve issues springing from an inherent lower self-esteem.

I still see many career oriented women as too aggressive. Although I think they need to be to survive in what they're trying to do. At the same time, the challenges of family and the "war of the sexes" seems to call for this lower self-esteem (unassertiveness) to keep things balanced.

[Virgil]

I don’t think that adornment necessarily equals low self esteem, in fact it could mean the opposite. I do think that many men can lean way back to button their pants under their enormous pregnant looking bellies and then look at the sexy devil in the mirror. Where as even skinny women think they look fat and have to turn and see how big their butts look in those pants. I think that there are many examples like this, but that it is changing. Grey on a man used to look distinguishing, wrinkles around the eyes made them look more knowledgeable, rough hands were a sign of a hard worker… mow men color, apply eye cream, and get manicures. I’m not saying they are wrong to do it, I’m just wondering what happened to make them think they are no longer OK the way they were. Women are constantly bombarded with messages that say in order to be sexy or loved one must fit into this little tiny mold and smile about it. I think that not having to worry about measuring up to Matthew McConaughey and the ability to pee standing up without getting any on their shoes are the two great advantages of being a man. Do men really want to give that up, or are they starting to feel the pressure?

But Mom-H, there is another facet to this too. Could it be that women are less picky than men and so men don't feel compelled to be as conscious of their looks? Men can be very selective and so women may need to be conscious of their looks based on competition. Also what drives women to shave their legs and do all the extra things that men don't do? I can't answer that, but women with good self-esteem and women with bad self esteem both do the same things. So I don't think it's all self-esteem.

As for having the ability to pee standing up, thank God. :lol:

[Scheherazade]

As for having the ability to pee standing up, thank God. :lol:And three cheers for waterproof shoes!

:p

[PrinceMyshkin]

Ideally I think that one's self-esteem ought to come from within, from one's sense of values and how well one acts on them. However we live in a society that constantly imposes on us external ways to evaluate ourselves: the car we drive; the neighbourhood in which we live; the clothes we wear; and most of all, the amount of $$ we earn or have in the bank.

I'm not familiar with current figures but until recently men were paid far more than women, sometimes for the same work. If one allowed one's monetary worth to determine one's self-esteem, by that criterion women would understandably have lower self-resteem than men do.

[apples of gold]

Where can I ... um ... get me a pair of these shoes?

[kathycf]

But Mom-H, there is another facet to this too. Could it be that women are less picky than men and so men don't feel compelled to be as conscious of their looks? Men can be very selective and so women may need to be conscious of their looks based on competition. Also what drives women to shave their legs and do all the extra things that men don't do? I can't answer that, but women with good self-esteem and women with bad self esteem both do the same things. So I don't think it's all self-esteem.

As for having the ability to pee standing up, thank God. :lol:

Or maybe that men and women are both selective in choosing mates, but that they look for different qualities and looks are not as as high a priority for women when seeking a mate than it is a man. Both sexes seem to typically go for people that are kind, intelligent and so on, but maybe there is an ingrained leftover from eons ago when males desired young attractive women (as that would typically be signs of fertility) and females looked for signs that a prospective mate would be able to provide resources to care for children.

Although things are getting so ridiculous regarding looks that more men are suffering loss of self esteem over their appearance...although not to the degree that I think many women do. Historically, women have not been valued as much as men and one of the things that they were valued for is appearance, so if a woman is not considered "attractive" than I think that most times there could be loss of self esteem. But self esteem is based on many things, not just looks, and it is hard to go into all the reasons for it not to mention the hazards of over generalizing the issue.


Also, behaviors such as leg shaving (as well as shaving other areas of the body) are kind of cultural (not to mention modern) phenomenom, so may not relate over all to self esteem except in the sense that women feel they have to engage in the behavior in order not to be seen as unsightly. I mean, I think we have gotten to the point that any hair except eyebrows and hair on the head is almost seen as unsightly. There are bleaches and depilatories to "get rid of" hair on the forearms, not to mention "special" shavers for "special" areas. Not every part of the world thinks hair is such a big deal as it seems to be in the US anyway.

[apples of gold]

Ideally I think that one's self-esteem ought to come from within, from one's sense of values and how well one acts on them. However we live in a society that constantly imposes on us external ways to evaluate ourselves: the car we drive; the neighbourhood in which we live; the clothes we wear; and most of all, the amount of $$ we earn or have in the bank.

I'm not familiar with current figures but until recently men were paid far more than women, sometimes for the same work. If one allowed one's monetary worth to determine one's self-esteem, by that criterion women would understandably have lower self-resteem than men do.

Oh sure, typical male. Just sweep our over-work and under-paid feminist issue of the century under the carpet. Now I know you'd really be good for Secretary of State. (lol. inside joke, folks.)

[PrinceMyshkin]

Where can I ... um ... get me a pair of these shoes?


Regrettably, I have to tell you that if you refer to them as "shoes" you are probably not worthy of them. They're Manolo Blahniks, darlin'


Oh sure, typical male. Just sweep our over-work and under-paid feminist issue of the century under the carpet. Now I know you'd really be good for Secretary of State. (lol. inside joke, folks.)

I'm afraid this is so inside that even I (who assume the joke is between us?) didn't get it!

Sides which the position of Secretary of State (as distinct from the Minister of External affairs) is already filled - by a woman!

[apples of gold]

Regrettably, I have to tell you that if you refer to them as "shoes" you are probably not worthy of them. They're Manolo Blahniks, darlin'

Ha! You're never going to get me in a pair of those sweetheart!

Do I detect a little condescension in your tone?


I'm afraid this is so inside that even I (who assume the joke is between us?) didn't get it!

Sides which the position of Secretary of State (as distinct from the Minister of External affairs) is already filled - by a woman!

I thought it was the woman that was suppose to act dumb ?

[Virgil]

Or maybe that men and women are both selective in choosing mates, but that they look for different qualities and looks are not as as high a priority for women when seeking a mate than it is a man. Both sexes seem to typically go for people that are kind, intelligent and so on, but maybe there is an ingrained leftover from eons ago when males desired young attractive women (as that would typically be signs of fertility) and females looked for signs that a prospective mate would be able to provide resources to care for children.

Although things are getting so ridiculous regarding looks that more men are suffering loss of self esteem over their appearance...although not to the degree that I think many women do. Historically, women have not been valued as much as men and one of the things that they were valued for is appearance, so if a woman is not considered "attractive" than I think that most times there could be loss of self esteem. But self esteem is based on many things, not just looks, and it is hard to go into all the reasons for it not to mention the hazards of over generalizing the issue.


Also, behaviors such as leg shaving (as well as shaving other areas of the body) are kind of cultural (not to mention modern) phenomenom, so may not relate over all to self esteem except in the sense that women feel they have to engage in the behavior in order not to be seen as unsightly. I mean, I think we have gotten to the point that any hair except eyebrows and hair on the head is almost seen as unsightly. There are bleaches and depilatories to "get rid of" hair on the forearms, not to mention "special" shavers for "special" areas. Not every part of the world thinks hair is such a big deal as it seems to be in the US anyway.

A very insightful post Kathy. Yes, I'm in agreement with everything you say here. Yes, both are selective but in different ways. Right on. :)

[kathycf]

A very insightful post Kathy. Yes, I'm in agreement with everything you say here. Yes, both are selective but in different ways. Right on. :)

That's the nicest compliment I have had today, thank you. :)