Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut

[Video Drone]

As I have mentioned before, Slaughterhouse Five is one of my favorite books. It was given as a choice for the summer reading assignment. The other books were The Color of Water and The Secret Life of Bees. The other too sounded very generic (racism and orphanage, what is more generic?), so I picked the Vonnegut book.

We had to write an essay on it in September. That was a very long time ago, but as I reread it in September, I started to like it a lot more than I did in June. But I'm not sure if I took the book the right way, though. In the essay, we had to pick themes, and one of the themes I picked was the inevitability of human choice, meaning, humans don't really have much control over their actions because those actions are more or less set. To make that clearer for you, I once heard the quote: "Human is a biological machine that is programmed at youth and is almost impossible to reprogram later on." Was that theme in there or was it not, I don't know...? That is what the Tralfamadorians were trying to say, too... I have the right to my opinion, anyway. In the essay, I had pointed out the quote:

"And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human."
Well, I wrote, without thinking too much about the way I was explaining it, that this quote is telling how humans don't have a choice over what to do because they are what they are, rule breakers.

The teacher, though, after reading this part, wrote on the side "I think this quote contradicts what you are saying." At first I wasn't exactly sure about what she meant (I'm a bit dim). Then I realized that she was probably saying something of the "Well, Lot's wife was given a choice, she didn't have to turn around. So she just made her choice, it wasn't inevitable." The problem is, what I was trying to say, that humans are *doomed* to do the choice they make because that is the way they were made and if a human (like Lot) would not look back than he is probably not being very human (as Billy pointed out), he's probably becoming something less free, obedient, non-human in essence you know, if you know, if whatever I am trying to say makes sense. :crash:

So, anyway, what is your thoughts on this particular part? And do you think the theme I tried to point out is there or is it not? And what do you think the book is trying to say, anyway (besides the "war is bad" thing). Sorry if I'm not making any sense, English is my worst class, anyway. :(

And sorry for the length of the post. One of my bad habits.

[PeterL]

It is my opinion that Vonnegut was expressing his fundamental belief that things happen, but people have no control about those things. I haven't read anything by him in several years, but the fatalism that he expressed rings true to me. [iSlaughterhouse Five[/i] was also autobiographical, because Vonnegut was there. Like Billy Pilgrim he survived the firestorm in a deep shelter. He was also saying that it is essentially human to look back, to reflect upon, what has happened. The fate of Lot's Wife was one of the points that Vonnegut was trying to make.

I agree with your point from the essay. Lot's Wife was essentially human. Humans don't always do what they are told to do, and sometimes that has unpleasant consequences. I have also come to believe that Vonnegut was completely correct: things happen with any apparent cause; one either survives those things or doesn't.

[Scheherazade]

The Book Club read SF couple of months ago. If you would like to have a look at the discussion thread:

http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23816

[Midas]

Video Drone (whatever that means) first let me say that I have not read the book in question, but I am familiar with its theme, and to some extent, with the author.

However, what I would like to say first is that what really caught my attention in your post is the number of times you put yourself down.

I can only assume from your avatar, and from also that you say you are at university, and from the way you project (not necessarily have) with almost every twist and turn, such a low self image, that you are female around early twenties.

I am no Sherlock Holmes, it is pure, well not quite so pure, guess work. If I am wrong, I apologise.

NEVER! repeat NEVER! put yourself down. You have surely found in life that if it is so deserved, and sometimes not so deserved, that there are always many most willing to oblige and do it for you. Far better you program yourself with positive expressions.

You see, it is not what others say to us that really matters, it is what we say to ourselves that impacts. We can deflect the slings and arrows from others, but it is fatal when we fall on our own sword.

I ask you, how long would you keep a friend who spoke to you like you speak to yourself?

Now, back to your books, but remember they will be of little use to you unless
you get the other part right. We are NOT what we eat, but what we THINK! Much of our thought comes from reading.

I am always curious about who really selects our 'recommended reading' and the ulterior motives behind it. What a choice. I withhold further comment on choice, otherwise I may (as in 'will') get carried away with perhaps a too strong political bent.

My advice is try not to figure humans out too deeply. It has sent far too many philosophers, psychiatrists, and psychologists, round the metaphorical bend.

WE either have 'free will' or we don't. Don't try to mix the two, or mix the measure. It's one or the other.

A question we should ask ourselves is - Are we a body with a mind, or a mind with a body. I settled for the latter. Why? It made more sense. And, if any one cares, I could put forth a convincing argument to support that view.

Our mind is where our decisions are made, there is a basic influence that we start with that comes along with certain physical characteristics from our forebears. But that is nature, we modify these by our nurture.

Life is one long interactive chain of cause and effect. We react to effects and it is how we react to them that makes us who we are. We are what we THINK! Because thought determines our every action. We do not all think alike and we don't all react in the same way to events.

As for the book 'Slaughterhouse Five'. To put it in a nutshell it is about the futility of war centred on one particular event. Personally, to me, it is about the futility of writing about the futility of war. It never gets us anywhere. You see, whilst we have little or no control over macro causes (war is a macro cause) we do have control over how we react to them.

We should also not believe everything an author writes. They write for profit.

Sometimes they write what their 'promoter' has asked them to write, or at least slant it in a particular direction. As they say also - history is written by the winner. I don't want to go into this too deeply. It is just something of which we should always be aware, and consider.

To sum up, I leave you with the words of Marcus Aurelius. They are as sound today as they were 2000 years ago

"You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realise this, and you will find strength. "

(Marcus Aurelius)

I wish you positive external events, and may your reactions be likewise - Midas

[Video Drone]

Video Drone (whatever that means)First of all, leave my nick alone. It's a reference to a movie I like and a game I like. If you don't know the reference, leave the nick alone. It's just there. I can say that my nick is, at least, original in terms of where it came from.

first let me say that I have not read the book in question, but I am familiar with its theme, and to some extent, with the author.You can't be familiar with the book if you have not read it yourself. The most you can do is be familiar with the general opinion about it. And the general opinion about something isn't necessary correct. Or, to be more exact, it is, for the most part, wrong, if such can be proven.

However, what I would like to say first is that what really caught my attention in your post is the number of times you put yourself down.Thank you for noticing that and worrying over me. But I have been lost for about 3 past years and I don't know where to go. Pointless to try to change that. I'm just lost in the Dark Zone. One of those people called "losers", I guess.

I can only assume from your avatar, and from also that you say you are at university, and from the way you project (not necessarily have) with almost every twist and turn, such a low self image, that you are female around early twenties. Avatar... "Some avatars represent ourselves, others represent our interests." (c) My avatar has nothing to do with me, I put it up randomly (unless you want to reference Freud). I'm 16, high school, finishing grade 10. But you are right about the female part.

NEVER! repeat NEVER! put yourself down. You have surely found in life that if it is so deserved, and sometimes not so deserved, that there are always many most willing to oblige and do it for you. Far better you program yourself with positive expressions.My parents put me down all the time, all I can do is just agree with them, because I don't see how they are, in any way, wrong. My existence is going nowhere. I tried to be an optimist from time to time but I have repeatedly been discouraged too much. Don't tell me how I should be. You wont change anything.

You see, it is not what others say to us that really matters, it is what we say to ourselves that impacts. We can deflect the slings and arrows from others, but it is fatal when we fall on our own sword.Nice metaphor, but you are just pointing out the problem, not the solution to it.

I ask you, how long would you keep a friend who spoke to you like you speak to yourself?Well, I don't have any friends in the first place.

Now, back to your books, but remember they will be of little use to you unless you get the other part right. We are NOT what we eat, but what we THINK! Much of our thought comes from reading.

I am always curious about who really selects our 'recommended reading' and the ulterior motives behind it. What a choice. I withhold further comment on choice, otherwise I may (as in 'will') get carried away with perhaps a too strong political bent.I guess you just don't like Mr. Vonnegut. A lot of people don't. I just read his books.


My advice is try not to figure humans out too deeply. It has sent far too many philosophers, psychiatrists, and psychologists, round the metaphorical bend.Thinking is the one happiness I have in life, please leave that to me.


Life is one long interactive chain of cause and effect. We react to effects and it is how we react to them that makes us who we are. We are what we THINK! Because thought determines our every action. We do not all think alike and we don't all react in the same way to events.I think that all our actions are programmed by our inner something (soul?) and our parents. Or other kinds of surroundings if we didn't have any. People hardly ever change. They are just there. And I don't think people have a choice. They are built into something particular and they are done. They just continue to live the way they were made to live. It may seem like they have a choice, but the choice they make, and their ability to take a particular choice, their ability to change in the first place, is already programmed by their behavioral pattern. Some people are always happy, some people are always sad. There is no decency, no change, it is just is. Some people change, but, usually, it's a very strong emotional surge.

Personally, to me, it is about the futility of writing about the futility of war. It never gets us anywhere. You see, whilst we have little or no control over macro causes (war is a macro cause) we do have control over how we react to them.I wonder what that means if you say you didn't read the book.

We should also not believe everything an author writes. They write for profit.A lot of writers don't write for profit at all. They write just because they feel like it, while they have some other job. And if a writer's books bring him money, it's not his fault.

"You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realise this, and you will find strength. "Hearing this for the 500th time won't help me much. Still didn't. How can I overcome laziness if I am too lazy to overcome it? The fact that I am already saying this just means that I am already too lazy to even try to do anything. And it is just a closed circle.

I wish you positive external events, and may your reactions be likewise - MidasWell, I can only thank you.

[Stieg]

Video Drone,

I love this same film and you're avatar I believe is paying abit of homage to it too. :D Vintage Cronenberg is delectable.

I didn't really enjoy the three quarters of Cat's Cradle I had read. I believe the author takes some extreme viewpoints without any reservations or reflections or apologies. But he does make perfect sense, makes me scratch my chin thoughtfully, just the method in which he conveys these messages seem highminded and yawn dull.

Here is a site with essays that can assist in inspiring your own... Kurt Vonnegut Essay Collection (http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/4953/kv_essays.html)

[Video Drone]

Vintage Cronenberg is delectable.Geez, I have just learned two new words. :D


But he does make perfect sense, makes me scratch my chin thoughtfully, just the method in which he conveys these messages seem highminded and yawn dull.That is what I have thought the first time I read Slaughterhouse Five, too, but when I read it the second time it made so much more sense...

[Midas]

You are obviously very happy, or at least comfortable, with your negative view of yourself, and that you have no friends.

From your comments, I take it you are resentful of any real help which does not serve to convince you that it all makes you sort of unique as in being apart from the crowd.

I can tell I am not alone in having my attempt to help spurned. I need no further convincing of the reasons.

However, it is not a unique condition. I had many such female students with similar hang-ups of putting themselves down as though it was some badge of honour. The difference was that most of the younger ones appreciated help.
In older ones where it had become too entrenched, it was a struggle.

As for reading, there is reading, and reading. I am VERY familiar with the author. I don't consider I have really read a book until I have read it a number of times - unless it is a light hearted novel - 'Slaughterhouse Five' is not a light hearted novel. Nor is it of a theme with which I wish to fill my head further.

Why? There was a line from a song that was current I believe a little before your time if you say you are sixteen - the line was 'When will they ever learn'
The answer to that is NEVER! {edit]

So when I said I had not read 'Slaughterhouse five' it means I ran through it once - skim reading. It was sufficient to get the general gist.

I can 'read' most books whilst standing browsing in a book store, or if at one of the larger stores in the USA, sitting in one of their comfortable lounge chairs they provide. I would glean from it enough of the essence that many would take a few days, or weeks, to extract.


When we put our thoughts, and views on an open public forum, especially when we engage in comments that indicate we are inviting answers to what appears deep, philosophical concerns sparked by a book, and a teachers comments, we should not be resentful just because all the responses are not what suits our mind frame.

I appreciate all responses, good, bad, and indifferent.

Nothing in my reply to your post was intended to be otherwise than helpful. I am always curious about chosen avatars because they invariably disclose
much about us. Mine comes from my preoccupation with the Gold Market.

My degree is in Applied Psychology, hence the interest.

I am not going to dissect all your original posting to give reason why I responded as I did. Nor am I going to offer you any further answers to your questions.

However, I will take your last paragraph in which you wrote:-

"....So, anyway, what is your thoughts on this particular part? And do you think the theme I tried to point out is there or is it not? And what do you think the book is trying to say, anyway (besides the "war is bad" thing). Sorry if I'm not making any sense, English is my worst class, anyway.

And sorry for the length of the post. One of my bad habits........"

My response is that you will continue to have such, and other, conflicts, and be confused by your teachers comments (stated earlier) until you sort out your inner confusion with yourself.

I assure you, it will be far more important to your life than Kurt Vonneguts experiences in, and feelings about, the destruction of Dresden some sixty years ago. Especially when, since that event, there has been a major war against Korea, Vietnam {edit}
I leave you with:-

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.

(Kurt Vonnegut)

[Video Drone]

You are obviously very happy, or at least comfortable, with your negative view of yourself, and that you have no friends.You have obviously earned your degree for nothing, for you are the same as the 100 people with shrink attitudes who gave me the same exact diagnosis. I wonder if you know anything about psychology, really.

From your comments, I take it you are resentful of any real help which does not serve to convince you that it all makes you sort of unique as in being apart from the crowd.I am resentful to anything that has been said repeatedly over and over again as though it is the only thing to know. Tell me something I haven't heard from anyone else and then I may listen.

However, it is not a unique condition. I had many such female students with similar hang-ups of putting themselves down as though it was some badge of honour. The difference was that most of the younger ones appreciated help.
In older ones where it had become too entrenched, it was a struggle.Heard that before. Heard that before. And this is pretty strange thing to say about someone over internet. You can't really figure a person out over internet.

Why? There was a line from a song that was current I believe a little before your time if you say you are sixteen - the line was 'When will they ever learn'
The answer to that is NEVER! I'm sorry, but why do you mention that? Would you mention that if I said I was 40? You know what is funny? If I tell people I'm 40, they never doubt it. When I tell people I'm male, they never doubt it. There goes your psychology theory. You image of myself is exactly what I tell you. I can tell you the opposite and you will believe that. You know nothing.

When we put our thoughts, and views on an open public forum, especially when we engage in comments that indicate we are inviting answers to what appears deep, philosophical concerns sparked by a book, and a teachers comments, we should not be resentful just because all the responses are not what suits our mind frame.I don't want answers of the type "I didn't read the book but I think". If you didn't read the book thoughtfully, I don't care how little time you think you need to understand it, I don't consider your opinion viable in any way. You have to read the book. Twice, preferably. No matter whether or not you know the author personally or whether or not you understand anything with the speed of light.

Mine comes from my preoccupation with the Gold Market.I don't see one...?

My degree is in Applied Psychology, hence the interest.I recommend you to study someone in real life, at the moment, you are failing miserable to differ from all other people who didn't have a degree.

I am not going to dissect all your original posting to give reason why I responded as I did. Nor am I going to offer you any further answers to your questions.You don't need to, your response is exactly the same as of 300 other people. And I'm not really asking questions. I am having fun with a person who doesn't have any idea what he is talking about.

My response is that you will continue to have such, and other, conflicts, and be confused by your teachers comments (stated earlier) until you sort out your inner confusion with yourself. That's not a conflict, man. That is just the way life goes. And confusion with the teachers comment? Just me needing more time to understand something than most people do. I'm kind of dim, you know. It takes me do everything twice as much to understand and cover.

I assure you, it will be far more important to your life than Kurt Vonneguts experiences in, and feelings about, the destruction of Dresden some sixty years ago. Especially when, since that event, there has been a major war against Korea, Vietnam.I guess, here, you have the impression that I am deeply engulfed in this book, which I barely remember, and which I only like for its non-war parts. Shows how you earned your degree for nothing, again.
See you in the next cycle of time.

[Scheherazade]

Since this thread is not serving its initial purpose anymore, it will now be closed.

For future reference, please do not personalise your comments and use PM for more 'personal' issues you would like to deal with.

Video Drone> Please feel free to start another thread on this book if you would like to discuss it further.