Lucifer?

[linz]

Lucifer as morning star

The 'star' connotation was attached anciently to angels, hence the 3rd of the stars falling from the sky in Armageddon. But it serves unreasonably to assume a man cannot be an angel, as Ezekiel: 28 makes reference to perhaps the same king that Isaiah was referring to as Lucifer. It is said that Isaiah would have two sons, the first of a virgin birth today known as Christ, and a second who, much less was written of. It is said he would be written about with a man's pen. This man's pen has lead me to the angel with one foot on the ground and the other on the sea with the sweet and bitter book mentioned in Revelations. Could this angel be a man, just as a king was used to symbolize a fallen star into the depths of Sheol, (Land of the Dead).

Below is a poem by Beckett

NEITHER

to and fro in shadow from inner to outer shadow

from impenetrable self to impenetrable unself
by way of neither

as between two lit refuges whose doors once
neared gently close, once away turned from
gently part again

beckoned back and forth and turned away

heedless of the way, intent on the one gleam
or the other

unheard footfalls only sound

till at last halt for good, absent for good
from self and other

then no sound

then gently light unfading on that unheeded
neither

unspeakable home

----------------------------------------

'to and fro' is a quote that Satan used to explain himself to the Lord in Job.
'Impenetrable self to the impenetrable unself' could also be used to explain good and evil. There are many things in Beckett's writing which would make a liberal minded and spiritual Christian entertained and mystified for eternity.

[hyperborean]

lucifer was made up by people because once you have a good god you need a bad one. reminds me of the doctrine of opposites.

[Turk]

Evil is not the opposite of God.

[weepingforloman]

Right. Read the preface of The Screwtape Letters. That will clear up God's "opposite" (i.e., He has none-- how can the omnipotent, the only self-existent being, the perfectly good being, have an opposite? Existence itself is a good, so a "perfectly" bad being, by definition, cannot exist).

[JGL57]

Lucifer is a metaphor for rebellion against tyranny, and god is a metaphor for tyranny.

As an allegory and mythic narrative, Lucifer is the good guy and god the bad guy.

[linz]

Lucifer is a metaphor for rebellion against tyranny, and god is a metaphor for tyranny.

As an allegory and mythic narrative, Lucifer is the good guy and god the bad guy.

Lucifer is to the Old Testament as Sisyphus is to Greek Mythology
Christ is to the New Testament as Prometheus is to Greek Mythology

[Niamh]

Lucifer is not the actual name of "the Devil". It is an example of how bad punctuation can cause problems.
He is associated with the fallen angel who is now representative of the devil by a misreading of Isaiah 14:12.
The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St Jerome and became the popular name for him when writers like Milton and Vondel started using it.
The real Lucifer is the fallen Angel Sammael( also known as Satan, Satanil, Seir and Samil). He was originally a cheif ruler of the 5th Heavan (7th in Jewish lore) and was the Angel of Death. Also the therm Satan or Satans is given to the Angels who fell with Sammael in the war of the angels.

[linz]

Lucifer is not the actual name of "the Devil". It is an example of how bad punctuation can cause problems.
He is associated with the fallen angel who is now representative of the devil by a misreading of Isaiah 14:12.
The name Lucifer was applied to Satan by St Jerome and became the popular name for him when writers like Milton and Vondel started using it.
The real Lucifer is the fallen Angel Sammael( also known as Satan, Satanil, Seir and Samil). He was originally a cheif ruler of the 5th Heavan (7th in Jewish lore) and was the Angel of Death. Also the therm Satan or Satans is given to the Angels who fell with Sammael in the war of the angels.

? ? ?

[Niamh]

Lucifer was not an angel. And the assiciation with Lucifer as the morning star etc only happened because of a typo in a version of Isaiah 14:12 were the misuse of an apostrophe created the misassociation.
What i'm saying is, is that Sammael is the morning star as according to Jewish Rabbinic lore.

[linz]

Lucifer was not an angel. And the assiciation with Lucifer as the morning star etc only happened because of a typo in a version of Isaiah 14:12 were the misuse of an apostrophe created the misassociation.
What i'm saying is, is that Sammael is the morning star as according to Jewish Rabbinic lore.


I looked it up on Wik.

You might want to pay attention to Beckett's work. His first name was (Sam=venom) u (el-god). His 'Waiting for Godot', though thought of as absurd, might actually be thick with hidden meanings. You know how Christian's claim the anti-christ will lure many to tribulations. Hence Estragen (an herb used to cure a snake-bit) accidentally mistakes Pozzo for Godot while Vladimir keeps within reason. I've analyzed the work, and can speak frankly; it is filled with word play not yet understood.

[weepingforloman]

Lucifer is a metaphor for rebellion against tyranny, and god is a metaphor for tyranny.

As an allegory and mythic narrative, Lucifer is the good guy and god the bad guy.

Maybe in Paradise Lost but not in Judaism or Christianity (I'm not sure if Islam has a Satan). The Bible (both Old and New Testaments) attribute the loss of paradise and immortality, torment, insanity, etc. to Satan, and blessings and love to God. Good guy, bad guy? It's pretty clear.

[Turk]

Satan considered as lord of demons (genies) by İslam scholars. He was created from fire, unlike angels he had free will too.

But here in past; there was two different point of view about Satan, one is negative and the other one is positive (not to praise Satan but to know him better, to know ourselves better). According to Mawlana Satan is not a creature to hate, but to pity also there's few more scholars like Ayn-ul-Kud'at Hemedani and Hallaj, especially Hallaj's book Kitab al Tawasin is one the most interesting books about evil.

[weepingforloman]

Thanks, I didn't know any of that. Very interesting.

[Niamh]

I looked it up on Wik.

You might want to pay attention to Beckett's work. His first name was (Sam=venom) u (el-god). His 'Waiting for Godot', though thought of as absurd, might actually be thick with hidden meanings. You know how Christian's claim the anti-christ will lure many to tribulations. Hence Estragen (an herb used to cure a snake-bit) accidentally mistakes Pozzo for Godot while Vladimir keeps within reason. I've analyzed the work, and can speak frankly; it is filled with word play not yet understood.

I thought this threadwas supposed to be about Lucifer (hence the title.) If you want to discuss Waiting for Godot and Samuel Beckett, then this i think should be in the General section.
I was only saying that Lucifer, as according to the Dictionary of angels and Fallen angels by Gustav Davidson, is associated with hell, fallen Angels etc by accident. He has cropped up in many different literary works since the initial error occured, including "Paradise lost". The name falsely represents Satan, who is Sammael (also known as asmodeus) the fallen angel, Ruler of the 5th heaven, and was the eight Archangel before his fall from grace with god. (And that this is infact whom there are actually supposed to be refaring to.)According to revelations 12 they only fell for nine days.
My appologies i made an error in last post. Lucifer conotes star, so therefore originally applies to the morning and evening star.

[JGL57]

Lucifer is to the Old Testament as Sisyphus is to Greek Mythology
Christ is to the New Testament as Prometheus is to Greek Mythology

For all I know, the late great comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell would agree with you.

Whatever. Whether it is a misnomer or a socially unacceptable heterodox viewpoint, I take "Lucifer" to mean "bearer of light", because that is what the term literally means (I thought literalism was supposed to be a good thing.). Thus, Lucifer is equivalent to Prometheus.

We are not talking about the objectively observable workings of an internal combustion engine here, or the shape of our galaxy - myth is more subjective and can be interpreted by the individual in any way that is meaningful to the individual.

E.g., I tend to see JHVH as the tyrannical father, jesus as the new generation son that tries to do what is right, or make things right, and the holy ghost as sort of a gay fog. Others opine otherwise. And there you have it.

[Redzeppelin]

For all I know, the late great comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell would agree with you.

Whatever. Whether it is a misnomer or a socially unacceptable heterodox viewpoint, I take "Lucifer" to mean "bearer of light", because that is what the term literally means (I thought literalism was supposed to be a good thing.). Thus, Lucifer is equivalent to Prometheus.

We are not talking about the objectively observable workings of an internal combustion engine here, or the shape of our galaxy - myth is more subjective and can be interpreted by the individual in any way that is meaningful to the individual.

E.g., I tend to see JHVH as the tyrannical father, jesus as the new generation son that tries to do what is right, or make things right, and the holy ghost as sort of a gay fog. Others opine otherwise. And there you have it.

God named the angels, and His names are much more meaningful then our random namings. "Lucifer" was Satan's pre-sin name; once he rebelled, his name became Satan ("accuser") because that's his primary activity - accusing God, accusing believers.

Satan is no "bearer of light." The Bible makes it clear that he is the father of lies, and that he only comes to "kill, steal, and destroy." Prometheus sought to better mankind; Satan seeks to destroy it (cf. Paradise Lost). I don't think Campbell would agree that Prometheus and Lucifer are comparable. Archetypally they have completely different functions.

God is only "tyrannical" in appearance to those who wish to violate the guidelines that He sets forth - much like children will call a teacher "mean" who is more concerned with teaching than being liked by his/her students.

[Gorilla King]

lucifer was made up by people because once you have a good god you need a bad one. reminds me of the doctrine of opposites.

I just wanted to address this point specifically and very simply. The contrast between God and Satan in no way is akin to the dualism of a religion such as Zoroastrianism. Satan is not a god. He is a created being with limited power that in no way contends with God's own. Satan can do nothing apart from what God allows Him to do. I realize this opens a very complicated subject and one which if you'll forgive me I'm not particularly inclined to go into at the moment more due to my own limited knowledge of it than anything else.

[JGL57]

I just wanted to address this point specifically and very simply. The contrast between God and Satan in no way is akin to the dualism of a religion such as Zoroastrianism. Satan is not a god. He is a created being with limited power that in no way contends with God's own. Satan can do nothing apart from what God allows Him to do. I realize this opens a very complicated subject and one which if you'll forgive me I'm not particularly inclined to go into at the moment more due to my own limited knowledge of it than anything else.

No, that is to the point. Assuming the christian mythic narrative is a rendition of historical fact (and the thousands of other competing mythic narratives are then "not factually true") then we see Satan and his dramatic role as just one more mysterious part of the omniscient personal god's mysterious plan.

And what a freakazoid plan it is. It's like a Twilight Zone drama of such phantasmagoric dimensions that setting one's hair on fire, leaping into a snake pit and challenging the biggest python to a wrestling match can easily be biblically justified - or even commanded.

Nevertheless, I like ancient myth as much as modern imaginative fiction. Taken exactly for what it is, it is at the very least entertaining, e.g., the over-the-top Satan character on South Park. :D

[Gorilla King]

Fair enough. I am curious though JGL, what would you say is your basis for determining what is real and what is myth? And also, do you think there are elements of truth in myth?

[Bakiryu]

Linz you're the first person I"ve know who knows what the world Sheol means!

[weepingforloman]

Meet another one!

[JGL57]

Linz you're the first person I"ve know who knows what the world Sheol means!

Well, I knew also so - glad to meet you.

I even know what Gehenna means (garbage dump).

And Hell (it's where people bury their potatoes for safe-keeping in the winter).

[JGL57]

Fair enough. I am curious though JGL, what would you say is your basis for determining what is real and what is myth? And also, do you think there are elements of truth in myth?

It's always pretty clear to me what are the mythic elements, if any, in a rendition of history, and what elements are obviously at least possible as real processes or entities, as the case may be.

There is nothing wrong with myth or mythic narrative - ever read Joseph Campbell? Myths are fanciful expressions of eternal (human) truths. They are the time-honored expressions of our basic human psychology.

[weepingforloman]

Gehenna was a specific valley in Palestine where the cult of the god Marduk deposited child sacrifices, it was used as a term for Hell at the time of Christ.

[JGL57]

Gehenna was a specific valley in Palestine where the cult of the god Marduk deposited child sacrifices, it was used as a term for Hell at the time of Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinnom_Valley

"...The name derived from a burning garbage dump near Jerusalem (the valley of Hinnom), sometimes identified as an entrance to the underworld.

[weepingforloman]

My apologies-- Moloch, not Marduk.

[JGL57]

My apologies-- Moloch, not Marduk.

In either case, you are apparently wrong about Gehenna. Or is wikipedia wrong?

[Bakiryu]

I was surprised when I read Marduk, an egyptian god. Child Sacrifices scare me, after you go throught all the trouble of giving birth to a kid, just letting it be killed is unescusable.

[JGL57]

I was surprised when I read Marduk, an egyptian god. Child Sacrifices scare me, after you go throught all the trouble of giving birth to a kid, just letting it be killed is unescusable.

Abraham - Isaac - JHVH - sacrifice.

See Genesis 22: 1-12.

Instead of inexcusable, I think the better description would be detestable.

[UltimaHybrid]

not to be an ***..but are you all f@#%@ retarded....Lucifer gods most beautiful angel got tired of taking orders and formed a rebellion against god...in result Lu wa sent to hell for a thousand years...then upon his return he was deranked or demoted...*shakes head* i study Celestial Mythology...well used to anyway...

[Xtian]

Complete…………
The birth of God
Started With
A single
Very human
Unholy Penetration
Which
Always burns tears
The very first time
As that useless
Skin pulls loose,

So,
I don't care
Which shadows plummet on the pale skin of
Remembering
How
Once, in a panic
We tried to hide the stain from
That cancerous broken hymen on those hundred dollar
New Laura Ashley sickening sweet paisley sheets
My mother just bought on sale at Macys

That flame still
Burns brighter and higher
Than any Baptismal candle I ever saw

As then our
Passion seemed to rise from fear then with open eyes,
Somewhat Sadistic yet
Serene
In vain, my veins keep pulsing
With that same Pagan lust mixed with what should have been Christianic sorrow

On the bed, you sat,
Mother to God
And I thought
The wallpaper was a strange transparent blue
like water…. And if
I can truly see all the world
Touch it Fall through it as Dali once perceived
Then you too, can fall in and drown
The scourging made flesh wounds
Which will heal with the burning
of Love on her funeral pyre

I was spawned to a lovely rigid faith...rotten and unforgiving,
messed up and blind, lost in ritual and pedophilia
Here’s to your cocaine driven life
With all of its intoxicating stupidity

The only good thing
about being inside you
Was the freedom
I just added
To your soul devoid
Which quickly went
In a shotgun blast

I feel like stealing intelligent
Truth so near
It is forbidden like Eve’s apple
Which also would have made me fall as love like blood strangle me

I want the quest of finding any mortal
that can leave this earth without a trace
And learn to follow him

Under the shadow of a raging wave
Staring through a window of obscurity
The glass shakes and shatters
Yet, the undead
Nor can our dead not die

Still floating
You open your eyes
Waiting…waiting
Watching me

Holding my Grandmother’s Zippo lighter
While smoking yet another Newport cigarette
Burning all the white love stained pages
I once wrote for you

Now
I want to forget

We always want to forget
then we remember

Tonight while crying unseen tears
I stamp out my cigarette, angry at myself more than you

All my pages
I want burnt to ash
But still
I can't forget

We always want to forget
Once we remember

I'm touching ground walking blind right now
with no more sins left to mourn
No path ahead, no path behind
A traveler inside the storm.

Maybe
Damned to damnation or eternal life like the Roman Centurion by the Cross
The irony is malicious but so how amusing
I always try to swim away to shade
By nature
God is ambiguous
Crawling out on the wind
Scratching the new paper off fresh sheet rock
the sound is but a ripple
As we, Voluntarily bow to death's sickle
by simply
Closing a book
Perhaps,
It was a good read, wasn’t it?
Perhaps it wasn’t
It really doesn’t much, after all
It was written with my soggy hands, fingers cut off at knuckles
The ink never hit the page to bleed

You said it made you think
(reflect, reflect…reflect…on yourself)
of Blue, crying blue

The Ashes of my white pages are simply bright embers
Yet I can still make out the words
They crumble to my touch as
At the last second I tried to retrieve them
But, still
I can't forget

My bondage grows tighter
There is no-me-thing left
But
Still I can't forget
We always want to forget
Once we remember
complete.

[Niamh]

not to be an ***..but are you all f@#%@ retarded....Lucifer gods most beautiful angel got tired of taking orders and formed a rebellion against god...in result Lu wa sent to hell for a thousand years...then upon his return he was deranked or demoted...*shakes head* i study Celestial Mythology...well used to anyway...

yeah but his real name wasnt Lucifer, it was sammael/asmodeus. (well according to my book on Angels and fallen angels by Gustav Davidson.) An have written this before but well felt a bit overlooked here.