Why do women not like nice Men? [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

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Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 04:30 AM

nps_marina

06-06-2007, 04:46 AM

They believe they can be the ones to change them?

I think that would be it, at least that's what I see frequently in one of my girlfriends who always falls for the rogues, and then she's telling us how that person is really sweet and everything, once you get to know him, and in private.

Anyway, we all want what we can't have. Nice men, 'easy to get', don't apply to the equation. I suppose.

One of my favorite quotes is 'obtaining the desire implies the end of the desire' (that's a whacky translation from the Spanish). So. We want what we can't get. Once we have it- we don't want it anymore, because we have it.

Not that I really believe that truth, since among other things it would be real catastrophic, but it might help as an explanation.

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 05:01 AM

They believe they can be the ones to change them?

Ah I see. So you think they see it as a challenge to chage these bad guys into good guys?

I think that would be it, at least that's what I see frequently in one of my girlfriends who always falls for the rogues, and then she's telling us how that person is really sweet and everything, once you get to know him, and in private.

Yes. I have heard that too. How is it that they can see the "niceness" and not anyone else can? Very strange. But what is stranger still is that they don't seem to learn from the experiences. It is the bad guy they still go for!

Anyway, we all want what we can't have. Nice men, 'easy to get', don't apply to the equation. I suppose.

Yes. We all want what we can't have. But we want nice people in our lives...why go for the unpleasant types?

Moira

06-06-2007, 05:24 AM

I've never understood women (or men) that stay in relatioships where she (he) is treated bad, and i never will .........:flare:

Of course we all want nice people in our lives but before you get to know someone there is something else that appeals to you, that gets you interested. And the 'bad boy' look does appeal to many women because they like to see strong, interesting, in control men and sometimes underneath, the 'bad boy' is not that bad afterall..... or at least that's what women hope to find.:p

Some might say that bad boys are allot of fun in the short run, but make bad long time committments .....:D

We date the bad boys but marry the good ones?:D

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 05:36 AM

They believe they can be the ones to change them?

yep, I agree. my first boyfriend was absolutely horrid and I knew he was but I thought I could change him. i've got a helping-people-thing :)

plus, being stuck with a bad guy makes you feel important and tragic somehow. it gives you a mission in life: to turn the bad guy into a good guy. it's a clearly defined objective and you can directly observe the results/lack of results of your actions.
plus, when the bad guy treats you bad you can tell yourself it's because your not good enough for him... some people just need to find fault with themselves and the bad guy gives them ample opportunity to do just that.

I did learn from this experience, though:) like Moira said:

We date the bad boys but marry the good ones?

when i get to know bad guys, I still feel an urge to help them, but I don't act on it any longer

Niamh

06-06-2007, 05:38 AM

I dont really like not nice men. I try to stay away from them cause they are just trouble. Although i always seem to end up with the men who appear nice at first but as you get to know them it turns out they arent! Curse my luck!

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 05:41 AM

I've never understood women (or men) that stay in relatioships where she (he) is treated bad, and i never will .........:flare:

But you will find that on the whole it is women who stick around in a bad relationship.

Of course we all want nice people in our lives but before you get to know someone there is something else that appeals to you, that gets you interested.

LOL :-) - And nice not interesting? To be given dignity not interesting? To be given respect not interesting? Is not all these qualities that we want?

And the 'bad boy' look does appeal to many women because they like to see strong, interesting, in control men and sometimes underneath, the 'bad boy' is not that bad afterall..... or at least that's what women hope to find.:p

Is that what women after then - to be controlled? Why is this? Is it because for thousands of years of being controlled their pschy become hard wired to find controlling men appealing?

Some might say that bad boys are allot of fun in the short run, but make bad long time committments .....:D

We should be revolted by any man or women who takes away your dignity as an individual. We should run a mile from such a person. And yet women don't. They knowingly enter such relationships.

We date the bad boys but marry the good ones?:D

But you marry bad ones too in preference to the good ones...

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 05:44 AM

Is that what women after then - to be controlled? Why is this? Is it because for thousands of years of being controlled their pschy become hard wired to find controlling men appealing?

i can only speak for myself, but in my case I liked to be controlled at that time because I can never make up my mind about anything..
a bad/controlling guy tells you what to do with your life and you don't need to take your own decisions. it makes life easier

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 05:45 AM

I did learn from this experience, though:) like Moira said:
when i get to know bad guys, I still feel an urge to help them, but I don't act on it any longer

Bueno! Bueno! :-)

Although i always seem to end up with the men who appear nice at first but as you get to know them it turns out they arent! Curse my luck!

And bad ones did they turn out nice? And when they did - you disliked them?

i can only speak for myself, but in my case I liked to be controlled at that time because I can never make up my mind about anything..
a bad/controlling guy tells you what to do with your life and you don't need to take your own decisions. it makes life easier

But they take away your dignity as a human being.

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 05:52 AM

Lote, could you define "nice"?

do you mean the opposite of controlling, abusive etc or do you mean "sociable, funny, etc"?

my future husband is a nice guy in that he is not controlling or abusive. he's very considerate, 'in touch with his emotions', kinda spiritual etc... but he's certainly not the "life of the party"... he doesn't like talking to strangers or saying polite things like "I'm so glad to meet you"... so in this respect he's not nice...

if "nice" guy means 'smiling all day, NEVER being grumpy, always being nice to everyone", then I'd have to say I don't feel attracted to this kind of nice guy.
I know some guys who are nice to everyone and smile all the time. but at the same time they don't seem to be exceptionally happy or light-hearted. they are just nice because they don't know what else they should be.
personally, I find this kind of nice guy boring:yawnb:

somehow I tend to think that a guy who is grumpy or broody occasionally has more depths and a guy who is nice all the time. of course this may be prejudice.

But they take away your dignity as a human being.

yep they do. which is why I'm glad to be rid of Mr Bad Guy.
but I'm still happy with some of the decisions he made for me, e.g. that I should study English. it was the best decision but I could not have made it for myself because I had no idea what I wanted to do.

Stanislaw

06-06-2007, 05:58 AM

Moira

06-06-2007, 06:03 AM

But you will find that on the whole it is women who stick around in a bad relationship.

LOL :-) - And nice not interesting? To be given dignity not interesting? To be given respect not interesting? Is not all these qualities that we want?

Is that what women after then - to be controlled? Why is this? Is it because for thousands of years of being controlled their pschy become hard wired to find controlling men appealing?

We should be revolted by any man or women who takes away your dignity as an individual. We should run a mile from such a person. And yet women don't. They knowingly enter such relationships.

But you marry bad ones too in preference to the good ones...

Well, you did not quote the first line i wrote where i told you my opinion on women that stay in bad relationships......

And a man 'in control' does not mean a man that will control the woman. It means a man in control of his life, with strong opinions, etc .... don't twist my words please:D .

And nice men are intersting too, your approach was a funny one so don't balme me for answering it accordingly:crash: ..... just kidding:D .

Some women do make bad choices and stay in relationships where there is no respect ...... and it is revolting. I don't know what drives them to such men, lack of self-confidence, past abuses that will draw them to future abuses .... many explanations but no single answer.....

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 06:03 AM

there's a saying in Polish: every monster/wretch has one who loves/cares it.

I suppose some of this is media brainwashing. telling people that this is how things are so, they enact what the are bombarded by.

what is media brain washing? women prefering bad guys?
like in soap operas or schmaltzy love stories?

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 06:04 AM

Lote, could you define "nice"?

A nice person I would define - anyone that treats you with dignity and that this person does do anything to take away that dignity from you.

This person does not have to be smiling all the time or be the life and soul of the party but he can also be these things.

Moira

06-06-2007, 06:05 AM

Well, you did quote the first line, my mistake:)

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 06:07 AM

but I'm still happy with some of the decisions he made for me, e.g. that I should study English.

I believe that you could have made that decision for yourself and it would have been doubly empowering...

And a man 'in control' does not mean a man that will control the woman. It means a man in control of his life, with strong opinions, etc .... don't twist my words please:D .

But you have seen SleepWitch's Response? So I did not twist the words. But it is this what you meant and not the other.

And nice men don't have strong opinions? and not control of their lives?

And nice men are intersting too, your approach was a funny one so don't balme me for answering it accordingly:crash: ..... just kidding:D .

LOL :-) Not blaming at all :-)

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 06:11 AM

I believe that you could have made that decision for yourself and it would have been doubly empowering...

no I could not.. the reason being that I didn't not have enough information about different jobs and courses and I did not no where to look for this information. but Bad Guy knew because he had studied English himself.
If I had looked at a univ. brochure with a description of the English department; I'm sure I would have been put off by their stilted choise of words and the airs they give themselves. I would have decided not to study English for a totally ridiculous reason.

Stanislaw

06-06-2007, 06:22 AM

what is media brain washing? women prefering bad guys?
like in soap operas or schmaltzy love stories?

well, yes, pop-culture does have an effect on people I noticed, almost every tv program (fiction) have this theam present...and eventually i think it becomes accepted by association.

Moira

06-06-2007, 06:28 AM

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 06:36 AM

I did read Sleepy's reply.
We were saying different things though .....

Nice man might have strong opinions too, it is useless to make generalizations.
I was trying to give plausible explanations to your initial post.
People 'show' their confidence and strong opinions differently .... it's about one's attitude ..... and how we notice people around us.
And we will notice first those who appear confident and in control of their lives. But that does not mean that others do not possess the same qualities.... but maybe hide them well......and are not that expressive.

That is way sometimes 'what you see isn't always what you get' .........

So what do you suggest Moira that nice guys should pretend that they are not nice so that women will like them? (not that I am nice or anything. In fact I can be shockingly so "cruel" but all in the service of witticisms and amusement and only with my wicked little tongue :-)

Moira

06-06-2007, 06:47 AM

So what do you suggest Moira that nice guys should pretend that they are not nice so that women will like them? (not that I am nice or anything. In fact I can be shockingly so "cruel" but all in the service of witticisms and amusement and only with my wicked little tongue :-)

No way am i suggesting that ..... :lol: :lol:

Pretending does not build strong and meaningful relationships, and in the end it's what most of us want.

So you are not a nice guy .... hmm ..... that will make you ...... a bad guy:idea: ?
Hmm ...... can't be that either you were 'against' them from the beggining.
I'll stick to the elusive .....;)

Niamh

06-06-2007, 06:50 AM

And bad ones did they turn out nice? And when they did - you disliked them?

If only Lote! Na I'd probably love it if they did become nice! I dont really like mean people esspecially men. And i dont like to be controlled. If someone tried to control my i'd automaticly start fighting it!

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 07:00 AM

So you are not a nice guy .... hmm ..... that will make you ...... a bad guy:idea: ?

Yes - so shockingly so :-)

Hmm ...... can't be that either you were 'against' them from the beggining.

There is a certain amount of self-loathing involved being a "bad" guy I guess ;-)

I'll stick to the elusive .....;)

Nay - just plain plain joe bloggs on the street ;-)

Bii

06-06-2007, 07:12 AM

I guess there are a couple of issues here. I think on a base level women are attracted to 'bad' men because, on the face of it, they're probably best equipped to protect them. If a man appears to be trouble then other men will most likely avoid them and their 'property'. This probably explains the phenomena which I think nps marina brought up that often women will point out that in private the man is really nice.

I think the other side of the equation probably relates to lack of self confidence which is why women allow men to treat them badly, and continue to do so. They may believe that they have no choice, because they are weaker (particularly where physical violence is concerned); or they may worry that 'he' is the best they can get, possibly because he has made them think that no one else would want them. Perhaps there's a thrill element, I don't know. I, for one, have always preferred nice men. In fact I'd take nice over pretty much anything.

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 07:34 AM

I guess there are a couple of issues here. I think on a base level women are attracted to 'bad' men because, on the face of it, they're probably best equipped to protect them. If a man appears to be trouble then other men will most likely avoid them and their 'property'.

Really? But they turn out to be right Thickies!!! ok they have brawn to bash people around...

This probably explains the phenomena which I think nps marina brought up that often women will point out that in private the man is really nice.

Then this bad image thing is just a pretention?

I think the other side of the equation probably relates to lack of self confidence which is why women allow men to treat them badly, and continue to do so. They may believe that they have no choice, because they are weaker (particularly where physical violence is concerned); or they may worry that 'he' is the best they can get, possibly because he has made them think that no one else would want them. Perhaps there's a thrill element, I don't know. I, for one, have always preferred nice men. In fact I'd take nice over pretty much anything.

How do they get into this low esteem thing?

Turk

06-06-2007, 08:53 AM

They believe they can be the ones to change them?

I don't believe that; i believe it's a lie that they women tell themselves to make themselves believe they are so "good".

Truth is simple; because nice men are acting feminine, not acting aggressive. Less masculine. That's why women prefers "bad" guys, because they seem more violent and rude, and until late ages, that's exactly what women wants. :lol:

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 08:58 AM

I don't believe that

If you did you then you would a women ;-)

papayahed

06-06-2007, 09:39 AM

Scheherazade

06-06-2007, 09:41 AM

Probably for the same reason that men go after the sterotypical "Dumb blond". Baywatch wasn't an extremely popular show because of the sparkling wit and inteligent dialogue.
It is early in the day yet but I think this might be the 'Post of the Day'! :D :thumbs_up :D

Pensive

06-06-2007, 09:42 AM

Truth is simple; because nice men are acting feminine, not acting aggressive. Less masculine.

Umm. You mean that nice men are feminine? I don't understand the logic behind it... I have seen women I wouldn't really like to call nice. Does that mean they are masculine?

A man doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive. A man who is less aggressive is not any less masculine than the one who is aggressive.

That's why women prefers "bad" guys, because they seem more violent and rude, and until late ages, that's exactly what women wants.

Not really. Because of the choices of some women, there is no reason to think all think like this. And anyway, those who made their choices like this might have had their reasons too. Perhaps they got very much physically attracted to them? Or perhaps they fell in love with them that they put aside all their dignity? (and as for love, it's a strange thing, it can take one to any length. If people can die for it, then why not put their dignity aside? Such behaviour is common among women as well as men. Many men put their dignity aside for women. Does that mean men dislike nice (Lotte Tree's definition of nice) women.)

As for what some of my fellow members have said about controlling men, I agree some women like this. But many don't. Look at the number of feminists which ensures women also want to be treated like any other human-beings, and want to make their own decisions. I don't think that because of the choices of some women, one should drag all.

And this is a ridiculous thing to say that women don't like men who are considerate... Considerate women wouldn't say such things. :p

Niamh

06-06-2007, 09:48 AM

Turk i dont think because a man is nice he's feminine. Men that are very feminine can be very mean and rude aswell.
{edit}

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 09:49 AM

Probably for the same reason that men go after the sterotypical "Dumb blond".

But we know it's always about the sex. But with women that seems not to be the case. They go for rogues that treat them like Dogs.

Baywatch wasn't an extremely popular show because of the sparkling wit and inteligent dialogue.

But men were not watching baywatch for Intellectual Stimulation:-)

papayahed

06-06-2007, 10:21 AM

But we know it's always about the sex. But with women that seems not to be the case. They go for rogues that treat them like Dogs.

Same principle. A man will hang around a hot chick, buy her things, do things for her for months/years without sex. Why? In hopes she wil change her mind. Same reason women will stay with jackass guys - in hopes they will change.

But men were not watching baywatch for Intellectual Stimulation:-)

really?:idea:

Scheherazade

06-06-2007, 10:21 AM

Truth is simple; because nice men are acting feminine, not acting aggressive. Less masculine. That's why women prefers "bad" guys, because they seem more violent and rude, and until late ages, that's exactly what women wants. :lol:So, Turk, do you consider yourself a nice man or a bad guy?

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1295/happydeviljy2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Pensive

06-06-2007, 10:23 AM

So, Turk, do you consider yourself a nice man or a bad guy?

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1295/happydeviljy2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

:lol:

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 10:26 AM

Same principle. A man will hang around a hot chick, buy her things, do things for her for months/years without sex.

Years? I think not! Men are not that patient. Men's motives are clear - sex.

Why? In hopes she wil change her mind. Same reason women will stay with jackass guys - in hopes they will change.

Can you see men's approach is simpler - sex and done with. Men don't want women to change. Women on the other hand the rewards seems very minimal and loss of dignity in the process...and years of abuse.

Scheherazade

06-06-2007, 10:29 AM

Men don't want women to change.Well, maybe they do... You know, into something 'lighter' and more 'comfortable'...

:p

Virgil

06-06-2007, 10:31 AM

Well, maybe they do... You know, into something 'lighter' and more 'comfortable'...

:p

:lol: :lol: That was very funny Scher.

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 10:31 AM

Well, maybe they do... You know, into something 'lighter' and more 'comfortable'...

:p

LOL:-) You know what I meant :-)

When comes to sex - men are not that picky!!!

Domer121

06-06-2007, 10:33 AM

quasimodo1

06-06-2007, 10:33 AM

Dear Scheherazade: I do not strenuously object to these reverse-sexist remarks. But then all you have to do to disprove a general statement is find one exception. Apolagetics101. quasimodo1

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 10:35 AM

Honestly, I think mature women who have been "around the block" have discovered how amazing a "nice man" is. It is only the immature or cougars that go after these "badboy" types.. Sooner or later the badboys get old and fat and after having their fun they are left with nothing while the nice boys have the wife and kids and a steady job...
They may get the girls but the nice boys get what they want.. the nice women.

That's a depressing prospect. May be I shoud change my ways and repent ;-(

Dear Scheherazade: I do not strenuously object to these reverse-sexist remarks. But then all you have to do to disprove a general statement is find one exception. Apolagetics101. quasimodo1

It is humour chappy. Nothing to worry about ;-)

kilted exile

06-06-2007, 10:38 AM

I think the nice guys finish last thing is a myth. It is continued by guys wallowing in self pity and complaining that the girl they like is "going out with some idiot who doesnt deserve her etc" but they are too scared to let the woman know their own feelings.

Women dont necessarily want "bad boys" but from my experience they do want someone who isnt too frightened to actually approach them.

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 10:39 AM

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 10:41 AM

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 10:41 AM

Women dont necessarily want "bad boys" but from my experience they do want someone who isnt too frightened to actually approach them.

yep that's true... with a nice guy (like my boyfriend) you never know what you're up to.. does he want to be friends or something more? does he always act like a jerk or does it mean he likes you etc. it's a miracle we got together at all :)

Niamh

06-06-2007, 10:44 AM

Have you read the responses from the women?

They actually go for "bad" guys :-)

To change them to transform them into "good" guys as a challenge.

Lote not all of us said that we go for "bad guys"!:)

Pensive

06-06-2007, 10:46 AM

Have you read the responses from the women?

They actually go for "bad" guys :-)

To change them to transform them into "good" guys as a challenge.

Many don't.

kilted exile

06-06-2007, 10:47 AM

Have you read the responses from the women?

They actually go for "bad" guys :-)

To change them to transform them into "good" guys as a challenge.

I think that is a very small percentage of the population. I stand by my original thought if these "nice guys" would actually get up and go talk to a woman they could get her just as easily as a "bad boy" could.

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 10:50 AM

Sooner or later the badboys get old and fat and after having their fun they are left with nothing while the nice boys have the wife and kids and a steady job...

that depends very much on how you define bad guy.
if you think of a guy in torn jeans, sleeveless leather jacket, zero vest or shirt with 7 tatoos on his belly, who smokes dope, drinks, curses etc, then I guess you are right

but you can also get a guy with a "bad" character but a steady job etc.

Countess

06-06-2007, 10:50 AM

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 10:53 AM

Turk

06-06-2007, 10:56 AM

So, Turk, do you consider yourself a nice man or a bad guy?

http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/1295/happydeviljy2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

I am a very lucky nice guy. :)

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 10:56 AM

I am a very lucky nice guy. :)

Then you must be a homosexual by your own admission earlier :-)

papayahed

06-06-2007, 10:57 AM

Years? I think not! Men are not that patient. Men's motives are clear - sex.

Sorry my friend, I've seen it and it's not pretty.

Pensive

06-06-2007, 10:58 AM

I am a very lucky nice guy

Then you must be a homosexual by your own admission earlier :-)

Or feminine. :p

papayahed

06-06-2007, 11:07 AM

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 11:10 AM

Madhuri

06-06-2007, 11:10 AM

Some insecure women (for any reason) may go for the bad guys. This I believe is because of the image these guys carry, which is of fear and power. The aura that they have makes these women feel secure and safe.

SleepyWitch

06-06-2007, 11:11 AM

I think that is a very small percentage of the population. I stand by my original thought if these "nice guys" would actually get up and go talk to a woman they could get her just as easily as a "bad boy" could.

I agree

generally I agree with this, too.

i think the reason for that is that when a woman chats up a man, she feels like a "slut" because women taking the first step was/still is regarded as "slutty" behaviour

Turk

06-06-2007, 11:22 AM

For the same reason men don't date nice girls. I'm convinced this is why I'm single. I treat men like Kings, cook and clean and pick up their dirty underwear, love them to death, give them all the space they need (I only ask for a little daily contact). In return I get taken for granted, treated shabbily, cheated on and left.
Lote, it's not a gender issue: NICE PEOPLE come in last. MEAN PEOPLE rule the earth, which is why I want off this God-forsaken planet.

I am a good and philosophic guy; that's why i will give you some advices;

DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE KING but follow this route;

1. Firstly treat them like knights; he's still good? Then go to step 2.
2. Treat them like lords; he's still good? Then go to step 3.
3. Treat them like barons; he's still good? Then go to step 4.
4. Treat them like counts; he's still good? Then go to step 5.
5. Treat them like viscounts; he's still good? Then go to step 6.
6. Treat them like kings; he's still good? Then you don't have to go anywhere. :lol:

Ok; now, seriously, if it's like that in your life; you are just unlucky, not wrong. Because i would act women like queens too; but i am lucky i've found my queen. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lote-Tree View Post
Then you must be a homosexual by your own admission earlier :-)

Or feminine.

Sorry but i said most of nice men, not all. :lol: It's truth nice men are less violent, and according to those women who likes "bad guys" they are less masculine.

Honestly, I think mature women who have been "around the block" have discovered how amazing a "nice man" is. It is only the immature or cougars that go after these "badboy" types.. Sooner or later the badboys get old and fat and after having their fun they are left with nothing while the nice boys have the wife and kids and a steady job...
They may get the girls but the nice boys get what they want.. the nice women.

Also this is pointing a truth too; less mature and less smart girls prefers "badboy" types (while smart ones still prefer nice guys). But in time they realize nice man is better too. :yawnb:

Stanislaw

06-06-2007, 11:31 AM

Can you see men's approach is simpler - sex and done with. Men don't want women to change. Women on the other hand the rewards seems very minimal and loss of dignity in the process...and years of abuse.

I've seen men go through abuse and loss of dignity in an attempt to be with a women they've desired. really it can happen to either group. men are not just walking testicles...some of us care about a woman's personality

Well, maybe they do... You know, into something 'lighter' and more 'comfortable'...

:p

:D :thumbs_up

LOL:-) You know what I meant :-)

When comes to sex - men are not that picky!!!

again I would have to disagree...men are not just driven by the urge of pleasure. some still care about relationships

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 11:32 AM

Sorry but i said most of nice men, not all. :lol: It's truth nice men are less violent, and according to those women who likes "bad guys" they are less masculine.

It's ok we love you still - we are very accomodating ;-)

Pensive

06-06-2007, 11:36 AM

Sorry but i said most of nice men, not all. :lol: It's truth nice men are less violent, and according to those women who likes "bad guys" they are less masculine.

You didn't write 'most'. :p

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 11:36 AM

men are not just walking testicles...some of us care about a woman's personality

Yes. We call these men "nice guys" - hence the thread :-)

dbowen73

06-06-2007, 11:41 AM

The truth to me is that women do like nice men, what they do not like is men that are so nice and bow to them over everything. most women want a man that they can respect so a nice guy seems less respectable to them and a stronger rougher more independent man seems respectable because he makes the women work for anything thy want. almost like your father that makes you work for everything you want and make him look good before u can get what u want- but yet you respect him cuz he is so called powerful alothough he may not be nice.

Turk

06-06-2007, 11:49 AM

Petrarch's Love

06-06-2007, 12:01 PM

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 12:13 PM

Time and again I find that what I fall for in a man is not only that he treats me with respect, but that he's generous and compassionate towards others--helping out friends and people in need. There's nothing sexier than a moral man. :brow:

LOL :-) Morality has it's uses then :-)

kathycf

06-06-2007, 02:24 PM

I personally haven't ever understood going for the "bad boy." I suspect that Papayahead may have a point with the baywatch comparison though. I've noticed that in situations where a friend of mine goes is going out with a "bad boy" and there's a nice guy sitting on the sidelines wondering what's wrong with him, I'm afraid there's often a very superficial reason for it. The "bad boy" is better looking. ....That said, I think that Kilted's insight is a good one. I think women do want a man with enough confidence that he'll at least be the one to make the move and introduce himself. It's hard to know where you nice guys are if you don't let us know you're there. ;)

Very, very good points, PL. :)

First, I agree with the statement that Kilted had made regarding confidence. It's nice to know someone had enough confidence in himself and actually liked me enough to approach me...To further build on that, there is a difference between a nice guy who is a doormat and a nice guy who is kind, considerate and respects himself and others. The first is wishy washy, the second is just as masculine if not more so than some schmuck who thinks being aggressive is the same as being "manly". True confidence allows a person to be respectful because they have nothing to prove by acting otherwise. That is appealing.

Secondly, you address the sex appeal quotient. While many folks strongly believe in "inner" beauty (kindness, goodness and so on) often times what catches the eye is somebody who is "hot". Really, a jerk who is physically unappealing is simply a jerk, but a jerk who is good looking is a hot bad boy. While Lote may ascribe loftier motives to women regarding sex, I think it still often comes down to attraction and chemistry. Often times a woman may think she can change a man due to some rather optimistic naivete. Love doesn't actually conquer all....

I wonder why Lote says men don't try to change women....I was married for over 10 years and I um...beg to differ. :)

manolia

06-06-2007, 02:56 PM

When comes to sex - men are not that picky!!!

:lol: Speak for yourself Lote :lol:

I think the nice guys finish last thing is a myth. It is continued by guys wallowing in self pity and complaining that the girl they like is "going out with some idiot who doesnt deserve her etc" but they are too scared to let the woman know their own feelings.

Women dont necessarily want "bad boys" but from my experience they do want someone who isnt too frightened to actually approach them.

:thumbs_up I totally agree with this.

The problem is that if there is such a "species" as bad guys, they are very self confident and approach women very easily. Whereas nice guys (i know a lot who are single) have a problem with doing that "approach" thing. They need a LOT of encouragement ;) .

Virgil

06-06-2007, 03:53 PM

I've seen men go through abuse and loss of dignity in an attempt to be with a women they've desired. really it can happen to either group. men are not just walking testicles...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I almost fell out of my chair with the way you said that, Stan. :lol: :lol:

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 03:54 PM

:lol: Speak for yourself Lote :lol:

But you know my standard of Beauty don't you Manolia?
It's Angelina Jolie.

But believe me - deprive men of sex for a week and they will fancy 80 year old quite easily :-)

and after a few pints of beer - even 80,000 year old women would become attractice to a man!! :-)

Demona

06-06-2007, 04:10 PM

kilted exile

06-06-2007, 04:14 PM

you're too harsh on men really :)

Yes, dating women so skinny you can see their bones is one thing, dating an actual pile of bones is quite another........

Lote-Tree

06-06-2007, 04:19 PM

you're too harsh on men really :)

LOL :-) It's an incentive for them to improve :-)

I am man - I think we should improve too :-)

Yes, dating women so skinny you can see their bones is one thing, dating an actual pile of bones is quite another........

LOL :-)

kiobe

06-06-2007, 04:28 PM

Stanislaw

06-06-2007, 06:54 PM

But you know my standard of Beauty don't you Manolia?
It's Angelina Jolie.

But believe me - deprive men of sex for a week and they will fancy 80 year old quite easily :-)

and after a few pints of beer - even 80,000 year old women would become attractice to a man!! :-)

er, not always true, though there was this rather atractive grandma I saw the other day...:lol: :sick:

I don't think men are purely driven by sex...if so, would there be alot more male prostitutes?

Yes, dating women so skinny you can see their bones is one thing, dating an actual pile of bones is quite another........

:D :thumbs_up

Virgil

06-06-2007, 09:30 PM

I think women do want a man with enough confidence that he'll at least be the one to make the move and introduce himself. It's hard to know where you nice guys are if you don't let us know you're there. ;)

Well, you know, for teenage boys and even young men, that is not as easy a thing as it sounds. I'm not talking about a pick up bar scene where that's the thing to do and both parties are expecting such moves. I'm talking about general everyday life. There is such emotional self-esteemed wrapped up in such a move that rejection can be quite crushing. I'm thinking of me (and I'm a relatively self-assured guy in most things and for the most part always been that way) and many of my guy friends when we were younger. It was much easier to get set up with a date than to try to ask a relatively unknown girl out. If you girls think it is so easy, and you really want your equality and independence, go and try to ask a relatively unkown guy out yourself. And even that's still easier because most available guys would jump at any girl who's asking.

Petrarch's Love

06-07-2007, 01:17 AM

Well, you know, for teenage boys and even young men, that is not as easy a thing as it sounds. I'm not talking about a pick up bar scene where that's the thing to do and both parties are expecting such moves. I'm talking about general everyday life. There is such emotional self-esteemed wrapped up in such a move that rejection can be quite crushing. I'm thinking of me (and I'm a relatively self-assured guy in most things and for the most part always been that way) and many of my guy friends when we were younger. It was much easier to get set up with a date than to try to ask a relatively unknown girl out. If you girls think it is so easy, and you really want your equality and independence, go and try to ask a relatively unkown guy out yourself. And even that's still easier because most available guys would jump at any girl who's asking.

Please don't start preaching about equality and independence. :rolleyes: Yes, I have asked guys out, and no, it isn't less likely that a girl asking will face rejection.:( :p In fact a few guys consider it too pushy and independent (just going on my own experience). It's probably equally hard for either girls or guys to make the first move. Since this thread was addressing what women find attractive and why nice guys don't always get the girl though, I thought it worth mentioning that it's definitely a big plus from the woman's point of view if the guy makes the first move, and when I say makes the first move, I mean literally just introducing yourself and starting a conversation. If a guy starts talking to me and it seems like he may be interested I'll meet him part way and be the one to suggest getting together. Also, regardless of who asks who, I find I'm most often the one who ends up setting up the time and place for the date, calling the restaurant for reservations, etc. So, I'm not saying as a woman I expect to just sit there and let the man do all the work, or that I would never ask a guy out myself (it only makes sense for me to ask if I'm the one who's noticed him and he doesn't know I exist), but I do think it's a plus if he has the confidence to ask me out, and I do think that most women find that sort of confidence attractive.

aeroport

06-07-2007, 05:03 AM

Yes, I have asked guys out, and no, it isn't less likely that a girl asking will face rejection.:( :p In fact a few guys consider it too pushy and independent (just going on my own experience).
Um, ‘too independent’? One wonders if we can exclude these gents who come up with such phrases from the ‘nice guys’ category… No indeed, Petrach’s Love, it isn’t less likely, but it is certainly no more likely. I don’t think I would suggest that women approaching men should be the natural order of things, but I really do not think there is any substantial reason why women should feel inhibited about it. (I'm probably wrong, though; it is known to happen...)

i think the reason for that is that when a woman chats up a man, she feels like a "slut" because women taking the first step was/still is regarded as "slutty" behaviour
Perhaps other women consider it slutty – or maybe I’m just not picking up on the general attitude of my fellows. As a man, I certainly do not consider it the sure sign of a tramp for a woman to initiate conversation. I actually kind of think it makes a girl seem … well, rather friendly and nice. It’s pleasant. One can't generalize too cleanly, but I would say that determining whether or not a girl is 'slutty' is not so difficult after talking for a while - in other words, I don't think a man would be likely to hold this assumption for long if it is not the case. If a man does actually make so bold as to say that a woman seems slutty when she’s doing anything short of, you know, indiscriminately having sex with lots of men, his opinion may, I think, be safely disregarded.

They may get the girls but the nice boys get what they want.. the nice women.
*Breathes sigh of relief* What joy it is not to be damned to a life of bachelorhood. :)

SleepyWitch

06-07-2007, 05:21 AM

Perhaps other women consider it slutty – or maybe I’m just not picking up on the general attitude of my fellows. As a man, I certainly do not consider it the sure sign of a tramp for a woman to initiate conversation. I actually kind of think it makes a girl seem … well, rather friendly and nice. It’s pleasant. One can't generalize too cleanly, but I would say that determining whether or not a girl is 'slutty' is not so difficult after talking for a while - in other words, I don't think a man would be likely to hold this assumption for long if it is not the case. If a man does actually make so bold as to say that a woman seems slutty when she’s doing anything short of, you know, indiscriminately having sex with lots of men, his opinion may, I think, be safely disregarded.

ok :) I see what you mean... but I wasn't referring to "initiating a conversation" with a total stranger :p I suppose I don't really understand all those (American) "dating", "seeing someone", "picking up" and "starting a conversation" thingies... I've never really been in any of those situations.

Virgil

06-07-2007, 08:12 AM

Please don't start preaching about equality and independence. :rolleyes: Yes, I have asked guys out, and no, it isn't less likely that a girl asking will face rejection.:( :p In fact a few guys consider it too pushy and independent (just going on my own experience). It's probably equally hard for either girls or guys to make the first move. Since this thread was addressing what women find attractive and why nice guys don't always get the girl though, I thought it worth mentioning that it's definitely a big plus from the woman's point of view if the guy makes the first move, and when I say makes the first move, I mean literally just introducing yourself and starting a conversation. If a guy starts talking to me and it seems like he may be interested I'll meet him part way and be the one to suggest getting together. Also, regardless of who asks who, I find I'm most often the one who ends up setting up the time and place for the date, calling the restaurant for reservations, etc. So, I'm not saying as a woman I expect to just sit there and let the man do all the work, or that I would never ask a guy out myself (it only makes sense for me to ask if I'm the one who's noticed him and he doesn't know I exist), but I do think it's a plus if he has the confidence to ask me out, and I do think that most women find that sort of confidence attractive.

Sorry if I was preachy. :lol: But you didn't say that or anything suggesting that in your previous post. Your sentence: "I think women do want a man with enough confidence that he'll at least be the one to make the move and introduce himself. It's hard to know where you nice guys are if you don't let us know you're there." Frankly this implies the opposite of meeting him half way and puts the entire burden on him ("he'll at least be the one" and "if he has the confidence to ask me out").

No wonder men on average have seven years less life expectancy than women. :p

dbowen73

06-07-2007, 11:20 AM

Thats the problem with the nice guy he sits there looking "nice" while the so called "bad boy" is up and about strutting his stuff and showing that the women should like him instead of sitting there waiting on one to walk by and think well maybe i should talk to that guy instead of that guy over there who is laughing and teling jokes and having a good time

Petrarch's Love

06-07-2007, 01:08 PM

Sorry if I was preachy. But you didn't say that or anything suggesting that in your previous post. Your sentence: "I think women do want a man with enough confidence that he'll at least be the one to make the move and introduce himself. It's hard to know where you nice guys are if you don't let us know you're there." Frankly this implies the opposite of meeting him half way and puts the entire burden on him ("he'll at least be the one" and "if he has the confidence to ask me out").

No wonder men on average have seven years less life expectancy than women.

:lol: Poor fellows. You're right that I didn't explicitly state that I would meet him part way in my original post, because I was responding to posts that seemed to be expressing confusion that nice guys didn't get the girl some of the time. I was merely trying to suggest that girls tend to like it when you make the first move, and that rather than wonder why girls don't ever come up to them, it might help if these nice guys made the girls aware of their presence. I wasn't addressing a problem with women wondering why men don't ask them out, which is why I didn't suggest that women make the first move. I was addressing a problem as to why a woman might go for one guy over another. Right or wrong, in reality the guy with the confidence to ask the girl out is going to have the edge over the guy who doesn't.

Um, ‘too independent’? One wonders if we can exclude these gents who come up with such phrases from the ‘nice guys’ category… No indeed, Petrach’s Love, it isn’t less likely, but it is certainly no more likely. I don’t think I would suggest that women approaching men should be the natural order of things, but I really do not think there is any substantial reason why women should feel inhibited about it. (I'm probably wrong, though; it is known to happen...)

Thanks, Jamesian. I too came to the conclusion that the guy who, after I asked him if he'd like to go out sometime said that it was his job to ask and that I must be some "pushy feminist" was probably not in the "nice guys" category, and not someone I wanted to go out with after all.:p I agree, though that there's no reason that women should be more inhibited than men about this sort of thing. It's probably equally hard for either party.

Virgil

06-07-2007, 02:57 PM

:lol: Poor fellows. You're right that I didn't explicitly state that I would meet him part way in my original post, because I was responding to posts that seemed to be expressing confusion that nice guys didn't get the girl some of the time. I was merely trying to suggest that girls tend to like it when you make the first move, and that rather than wonder why girls don't ever come up to them, it might help if these nice guys made the girls aware of their presence. I wasn't addressing a problem with women wondering why men don't ask them out, which is why I didn't suggest that women make the first move. I was addressing a problem as to why a woman might go for one guy over another. Right or wrong, in reality the guy with the confidence to ask the girl out is going to have the edge over the guy who doesn't.
:lol: Yes, I agree with that last sentence and that is reality. It's probably a corollary to Shakespeare's "Nothing comes from nothing." ;)

Thanks, Jamesian. I too came to the conclusion that the guy who, after I asked him if he'd like to go out sometime said that it was his job to ask and that I must be some "pushy feminist" was probably not in the "nice guys" category, and not someone I wanted to go out with after all.:p I agree, though that there's no reason that women should be more inhibited than men about this sort of thing. It's probably equally hard for either party.

Hah!!! Progress! At least you can now see the other side of the coin. :p :D

BlueSkyGB

06-07-2007, 03:06 PM

Isn't the same true....women go for the "bad" boys
and men for the "bad" girls?

or is this just a misconception, put upon us by the "media" that decides what we think we want? :idea:

aeroport

06-07-2007, 03:30 PM

ok :) I see what you mean... but I wasn't referring to "initiating a conversation" with a total stranger :p I suppose I don't really understand all those (American) "dating", "seeing someone", "picking up" and "starting a conversation" thingies... I've never really been in any of those situations.
They really are kind of American, aren't they? Man, wish I were anywhere else... :(

kathycf

06-07-2007, 03:52 PM

I don't think men are purely driven by sex...if so, would there be alot more male prostitutes?

Sorry, Stan but I totally disagree with this. By implication are we to infer that women who engage in prostitution do so because they love sex so much? First off, by and large men are the ones purchasing sex from women who provide it for a fee, so to me that says something about the way sex is viewed by the men purchasing it. Without delving too much into those over generalizations I hate, one could speculate that men who purchase sex are doing so because they are "purely driven by sex"?

In prostitution sex becomes by definition a commodity. You could just as easily argue that a person who works at McDonalds does so because they have an overwhelming love of hamburgers. While that may be so in a few cases....by and large many female sexworkers are in the "profession" because it is a way to earn money. Statistically, prostitutes are easy targets for criminals who wish to victimize women....and know full well they can get away with it because prostitutes aren't "nice" women. It is a dangerous profession.

My town actually has quite a high rate of drug use and prostitution, and around here many of the women selling themselves are doing so out of desperation due to their addiction. It is a horrible social problem. Of course, I am not discussing women who choose to become "callgirls" or "escorts". For one thing, that is generally much safer....as to why those women choose that, I still think it is because sex is a commodity to them. It is a means to an end...earning a commision. I personally think it is morally reprehensible to either sell or purchase sex, but I think I am far more sympathetic to the person who may sell themselves because they feel they have no other alternative.

Anyway, sorry for digressing so far off topic. :)

I think the nice guys finish last thing is a myth. It is continued by guys wallowing in self pity and complaining that the girl they like is "going out with some idiot who doesnt deserve her etc" but they are too scared to let the woman know their own feelings.

Women dont necessarily want "bad boys" but from my experience they do want someone who isnt too frightened to actually approach them.

Very, very good points, PL. :)

First, I agree with the statement that Kilted had made regarding confidence.

:lol: Yes, I agree with that last sentence and that is reality. It's probably a corollary to Shakespeare's "Nothing comes from nothing." ;)

I don't know about PL, but when I made my earlier post it was mostly regarding what Kilted said about men who complain about "nice guys finish last" while doing nothing to further their own cause. Of course, a woman can approach a man. :)

Isn't the same true....women go for the "bad" boys
and men for the "bad" girls?

or is this just a misconception, put upon us by the "media" that decides what we think we want? :idea:
Good point, BlueSky. I think the media has a lot of influence in this matter.

BlueSkyGB

06-07-2007, 03:59 PM

I actually think the media has more influence on people's choices and lifestyles that we like to admit sometimes...
I happen to be an impulse buyer....and have to really watch myself when...
oh look there's a ...
and the next thing I'm thinking is, why?:lol:

kathycf

06-07-2007, 04:00 PM

BlueSkyGB

06-07-2007, 04:04 PM

Yea, I know what you mean. :lol:

or to pose another question....
is it the illusion of a "bad" boy or "bad" girl that we makes us desire the person?
The look or the attitude?

kilted exile

06-07-2007, 04:10 PM

I think the main difference being a guy liking bad girls and girls liking bad guys is that we have no thoughts about changing the bad girl, there is no reclamation being attempted in general. We generally dont expect the relationship to go anywhere, and in these cases the organ controlling our actions is a little further south.

kathycf

06-07-2007, 04:12 PM

Well, I think it is a combination of looks and attitude. Lote-Tree had questioned why a woman would be interested in a man who treated her badly. I mentioned earlier that a jerk who is plain looking is looked at as just a jerk, but a goodlooking jerk is a hot bad boy. The reverse holds true for women too. I think a lot of people are willing to put up with a jerk of either sex simply because said jerk is a hottie.

Of course that is on one level...I think a lot of times women (or perhaps men too...) think that if they care about a person enough they can change them for the "better" with their love. This is such a Hollywood romance notion. True love conquers all and that sort of rubbish. I think the media tells people that attractiveness is the key to happiness (to a point) and so people put up with crap from a good looking jerk they might not otherwise tolerate.

I don't know...it is complicated and really has a lot to do with the individual mindset of the people involved.

BibliophileTRJ

06-07-2007, 04:30 PM

Studies have shown that when a woman is ovulating she is more attracted to the stereo-typical macho masculine he-man. The guy that'll supply "STRONG" genes.
When not ovulating she is more attracted to the successful "provider type". The guy that'll provide & care for the child she made with Mr. Macho.

Have to do some digging to find a link to the research that'll back me up on this....... will edit my post later with that info.

Lote-Tree

06-07-2007, 04:51 PM

Women also wear more revealing clothes when they are ovulating too...

Turk

06-07-2007, 06:19 PM

Studies have shown that when a woman is ovulating she is more attracted to the stereo-typical macho masculine he-man. The guy that'll supply "STRONG" genes.
When not ovulating she is more attracted to the successful "provider type". The guy that'll provide & care for the child she made with Mr. Macho.

Well then women should understand true strength of mankind is his intelligence, not muscles. :lol:

manolia

06-07-2007, 06:20 PM

But you know my standard of Beauty don't you Manolia?
It's Angelina Jolie.

You must feel very lonely then..

But believe me - deprive men of sex for a week and they will fancy 80 year old quite easily :-)

You know there are certain things a man can do alone to substitute sex...
(chocolate, i mean eating chocolate :lol: )

kathycf

06-07-2007, 09:03 PM

Women also wear more revealing clothes when they are ovulating too...
Yes, jeans and shirts are quite revealing. Or even flannel pajamas in winter...totally sexy :rolleyes:

Some women may wear more revealing clothing....many women prefer not to wear revealing clothing at all, regardless of the time of the month. :)

Video Drone

06-07-2007, 09:04 PM

But the women that do wear revealing clothing are often noticed most. :)

kathycf

06-07-2007, 09:17 PM

But that isn't my point...Lote had made a statement that I just found simply too general. Whether somebody wears clothing to be noticed or not is their own personal choice and is not really relevant to what I was saying. :)

kilted exile

06-07-2007, 09:29 PM

But the women that do wear revealing clothing are often noticed most. :)

Yeah, but generally not for good reasons

Countess

06-08-2007, 01:15 AM

As a nice girl, I can say truthfully I won't ask a guy out - I wish to be romanced the old-fashioned way. If he wants to go out with me, he'll ask.
Nobody does, so I haven't had a date in two years.
I look for inner beauty in a man; unfortunately I tend to spoil them and then they become bad boys. I have also dated the super-nice guys and I will tell you now that if a man lacks a spinal column then we're doomed, first because I need a man to be a man and put his foot down time to time, and second because if he doesn't put his foot down, then I become really ugly inside and I hate myself. Then I'll break up with him because I can't respect myself if I am taking advantage of this man's sappiness.
I am happiest with a man who brings out the best in me, who can be a softy at times, but can pull rank if I get high-handed. I like it when a guy pulls rank - it excites me.
Okay, can anyone tell I haven't had a date in two years - LOL?

aeroport

06-08-2007, 02:16 AM

In light of Countess's remarks, one can scarcely help but recall a certain scene from The Portrait of a Lady (my italics):

Gilbert Osmond: “I like her very much. She is all you said, and into the bargain she is capable of great devotion. She has only one fault.”
Madame Merle: “What is that?”
GO: “She has too many ideas.”
MM: “I warned you she was clever.”
GO: “Fortunately they are very bad ones,” said Osmond.
MM: “Why is that fortunate?”
GO: “Dame, if they must be sacrificed!”

I look for inner beauty in a man; unfortunately I tend to spoil them and then they become bad boys.
How, may I ask, as a 'nice girl', do you spoil them? **EDIT - never mind; I misread. I see what you're saying here.

if he doesn't put his foot down, then I become really ugly inside and I hate myself. Then I'll break up with him because I can't respect myself if I am taking advantage of this man's sappiness.
How can one who takes advantage of a 'man's sappiness' consider herself a 'nice girl'? :D

kathycf

06-08-2007, 02:49 AM

As a nice girl, I can say truthfully I won't ask a guy out - I wish to be romanced the old-fashioned way.
There is nothing wrong with old fashioned romance, (it is pretty darn nice, actually) but nice girls can also ask guys out too. :nod:

Lote-Tree

06-08-2007, 03:37 AM

You must feel very lonely then..

I have still Kate Beckinsale, Kate Winslet, Keira Knightly, Jessica Alba...and the list continues :-)

You know there are certain things a man can do alone to substitute sex...

Yes - other WOMEN :-)

Yes, jeans and shirts are quite revealing. Or even flannel pajamas in winter...totally sexy :rolleyes:

This was found in a scientific study of women going to clubs. They found that women who were ovulating wore revealing clothing... :-)

BlueSkyGB

06-08-2007, 11:15 AM

This was found in a scientific study of women going to clubs. They found that women who were ovulating wore revealing clothing... :-)

A Scientific study at a club?.....:lol:

would be interested to see the study and results.

Countess

06-08-2007, 11:21 AM

How can one who takes advantage of a 'man's sappiness' consider herself a 'nice girl'? :D

Oh, you are so clever Jamesian, but I won't take advantage of their sappiness - that's why I break up with them. When I start to go that route I take note and flee. (Sometimes I want to hear the word "no". I'm like a child that way). ;)

I have still Kate Beckinsale, Kate Winslet, Keira Knightly, Jessica Alba...and the list continues :-)

You have fine taste in women. I confess to knowing the idea of Orlando Bloom, Justin Timberlake and Jake Gyllenhaal quite intimately.

Yes - other WOMEN :-)

This is wrong of me, but I always borrow the AA phrase and say "I'm completely autonomous - declining outside contributions". I believe that was what he was suggesting.

quasimodo1

06-08-2007, 11:29 AM

To Countess: I disagree that wanting to hear the word "no" makes you childish. The expression "yes-man" is not complimentary and we all want the total and diverse experience, whether we like it or not. Also the chance the some traits are, forgive the word, atavistic. quasi

kathycf

06-08-2007, 02:20 PM

This was found in a scientific study of women going to clubs. They found that women who were ovulating wore revealing clothing... :-)
:lol:

Oh, yes... women who go to nightclubs must be representative of the general female population....NOT. How many milliions of women of reproductive age are there in the world and of those, how many of them attend clubs? How much does the choice of clothing relate to personal taste and one's culture? Lots of women like revealing clothes, and that's fine. There are also many MANY who don't.

A study should sample different strata of the population as a whole...not one specific subgroup (people who visit clubs). Seriously..don't people dress up to go to nightclubs in a different way then they would to go shopping or attend school? I am afraid I just don't buy it. You could make a very "scientific" study of how people who go to nightclubs probably favor a more provocative dress style on average anyway...regardless of whether their ovaries happen to be releasing eggs at that time or not. I have seen sections of fashion catalogues with listings for clubwear. All the clubwear clothing was more revealing than just ordinary street clothes.

How was the study conducted..."Excuse me miss, would you like a drink and tell me, are you ovulating?" While there are specific physical clues, I would argue they are rather intimate and thus the information would have to be volunteered.

What about the ovulating females who choose not to go to nightclubs? I ovulate every once in a while myself...I don't go to nightclubs or dress in revealing clothing at any particular time. :) Generalizations are just too darn general. While statements such as "women wear more revealing clothing during ovulation" may be true of a certain part of the female population, it is not true of every woman...nor does it take into account other factors that come into play when choosing clothing.

So, you know...not trying to be grumpy...but I just think there are studies conducted that are not particulary "scientific". I would be interested to see the study you are referring to...was it published in a journal?

Lote-Tree

06-08-2007, 04:15 PM

How was the study conducted..."Excuse me miss, would you like a drink and tell me, are you ovulating?"

They took urine and saliva samples and measured hormone levels.

While there are specific physical clues, I would argue they are rather intimate and thus the information would have to be volunteered.

It was done on volunteers.

So, you know...not trying to be grumpy...but I just think there are studies conducted that are not particulary "scientific". I would be interested to see the study you are referring to...was it published in a journal?

It was in a BBC science program...may be Horizon...or may be it was one of Desmond Morris program on Human sexuality.

I shall find out for you the details if I can :-)

kilted exile

06-08-2007, 04:21 PM

That kind of pathetic organising of a "scientific" study gives science a bad name and is why so many people in the "hard sciences" have issues with the term "social sciences"

Lote-Tree

06-08-2007, 04:21 PM

You have fine taste in women.

Thank you - Beauty is to be Admired :-)

I confess to knowing the idea of Orlando Bloom, Justin Timberlake and Jake Gyllenhaal quite intimately.

And you have fine taste in men (says the women I know!!!) :-)

This is wrong of me, but I always borrow the AA phrase and say "I'm completely autonomous - declining outside contributions". I believe that was what he was suggesting.

I knew what he/she was suggesting - my response was meant to be witty but it has not worked very well:-(

kathycf

06-08-2007, 04:59 PM

They took urine and saliva samples and measured hormone levels.
ok

It was done on volunteers.
That wasn't quite what I meant. Obviously ethics forbid conducting studies like that on people without their consent. What I meant was, there is no immediate and easy way to determine when a woman ovulates...unlike certain other species who have clear visual cues, or enter into a period of "heat".

It was in a BBC science program...may be Horizon...or may be it was one of Desmond Morris program on Human sexuality.

I shall find out for you the details if I can :-)
The fact remains that those findings are sketchy at best. A research study in psychology requires looking at all the variables possible, in addition to sampling all known strata of a population. I would have given the results more credibllity if it was not confined to a specific population and considered other reasons for clothing choice besides some perceived biological imperative. As it is, the results speak to women of a specific group only (clubgoers) who dress more provoctively when ovulating.

There are other questions to consider.
Age...are clubgoers on average younger or older than other women of reproductive age? Let's keep in mind that a female ovulates monthly roughly between the ages of 12 until 48. Roughlythe age of onset of menstruation and age of menopause vary somewhat. Would those same results in the study hold true for someone who is 35 vs someone who is 15? Should a result obtained from someone who is 22 represent someone who is 42?

Personal taste...does the individual always prefer more revealing clothing or does she dress more conservatively as a whole?

Are clubgoers on average more or less likely to dress provocatively at other times of the month vs non-clubgoers?

How representative of the general population of ovulating women is one specific sub-group?

Was the study conducted on each individual for a long enough time to reveal consistent results? Say charting an individual over the course of a year, or was this a one time only thing?

What about cultures where it is frowned on for women to dress in a revealing manner? Or for that matter how common is nightclub attendence in other countries? I assume the study surveyed clubgoers in the UK? What about other countries not of Western Culture?

There really are a lot more questions I could raise, but as it is I am veering off topic quite a bit.

That kind of pathetic organising of a "scientific" study gives science a bad name and is why so many people in the "hard sciences" have issues with the term "social sciences"
But psychological research must be painstakingly conducted...so a study such as the one Lote cites would probably need far more research conducted on a far larger segment of the population along with taking into other consideration other variables. That sort of informal survey is not typical of academic social science studies. Which is why I am being so nasty and picking it apart....I study both psychology and sociology and have taken classes about research methods. :)

Lote-Tree

06-08-2007, 05:14 PM

Here are some articles for now...

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg19325864.000-best-dressed-women-have-babies-on-their-mind.html

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn8251--hormone-levels-predict-attractiveness-of-women.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/health/webmd/main2081501.shtml

kilted exile

06-08-2007, 05:17 PM

But psychological research must be painstakingly conducted...so a study such as the one Lote cites would probably need far more research conducted on a far larger segment of the population along with taking into other consideration other variables. That sort of informal survey is not typical of academic social science studies. Which is why I am being so nasty and picking it apart....I study both psychology and sociology and have taken classes about research methods. :)

Yeah, I know that the social science differentiation is a stereotype (the mother was doing a joint Psych/sociology while I was growing up so I got to learn about a decent amount of the theories/practices by osmosis:p ) My point was that this study is the type which lends weight to the stereotype, because of the inherent biases built into it.

kathycf

06-08-2007, 05:36 PM

Yeah, I know that the social science differentiation is a stereotype (the mother was doing a joint Psych/sociology while I was growing up so I got to learn about a decent amount of the theories/practices by osmosis:p ) My point was that this study is the type which lends weight to the stereotype, because of the inherent biases built into it.
Ah good point. I understand better. Yes, bias is something any good researcher has to be aware of, and is one of the reasons I get so persnickety about these rather broad generalizations I see people make sometimes.

Here are some articles for now...

A new study shows that young women in relationships may dress a bit more enticingly as they reach the ovulation phase of their monthly fertility cycle — the time when they are most fertile.

The 30 college women studied were more likely to wear lace-trimmed tops, skirts instead of pants, and more revealing (though still appropriate) clothes as they neared ovulation, when an egg is released from the ovary....The 30 women in Haselton's study were UCLA undergraduates and 21 years old, on average.

All said they were in relationships, had regular menstrual cycles, and weren't using hormonal contraceptives.

Thirty women whose average age is 21 and attend college is not a valid sample of the general female population. While their results may be applied to other women of similiar age and demographic who also have regular menstrual cycles...can they usefully be applied to the whole population of women who are of reproductive age? What of women who use hormonal contraceptives...those suppress ovulation...do they on average dress differently?

Dress to impress, goes the maxim. "Dress to conceive" might be more accurate. Women take greater care over their appearance when they are at peak levels of fertility.

Working with a group of 30 women aged 18 to 37, Martie Haselton of the University of California, Los Angeles, and colleagues took two full-body photographs of each woman, one close to ovulation when the woman was highly fertile, and one at a point of low fertility in the menstrual cycle. Volunteers were then invited to decide which of the two photos showed the woman trying to look more attractive

Dressing to look attractive and dressing in revealing clothing are not the same thing. An attractive outfit can be revealing, but NOT always. I can look quite attractive in my favorite red turtleneck sweater if I may say so myself, and there is nothing revealing about a loose fitting sweater that covers me to my neck. At any rate, it is not definitive proof. Are we to assume women who no longer ovulate dress like slobs or don't care how attractive they look? I still say personal choice and culture are just two variables that need to be looked at.

Look, all I am saying is that these studies are suggestive....they are not proof postive. Are there correlations between fertile times and wanting to be attractive? Quite probably. There would have to be far more research done on a far bigger segment of the population.

Plus, these studies are not the one you cite when saying "Women also wear more revealing clothes when they are ovulating too.." Sadly, I constantly watch myself about using broad generalizations because it is absolutely a pet peeve of mine when other people make these rather general statements expecting them to fit millions of people.

Okay... I am going out tonight...but not dressing provatively as I am attending a school function for a five year old. Thank you to both Lote and Kilted for an engaging conversation but I really have to go get ready now! :lol: I keep reading posts instead of jumping in the shower.

Well, I expect I have been obnoxious and overly opinionated. Oh well!

kilted exile

06-08-2007, 11:29 PM

Another downfall of the study is that all the participants were already in a relationship.

Because of this, in order to accept the original hypothesis that they are dressing in this way to attract male attention, we have to first make the assumption that they are promiscuous and want to get rid of their current partner. This is a big leap to make and one which there is no supporting evidence for.

A far more suitable test group would have been women who were not in a relationship and monitoring differences in how they dress over the menstrual cycle.

Countess

06-09-2007, 12:59 AM

so many people in the "hard sciences" have issues with the term "social sciences"

I thought we were discussing "hard" science. I know - that was bad. :lol: :sick:

Lote-Tree

06-09-2007, 04:21 AM

Well, I expect I have been obnoxious and overly opinionated. Oh well!

Nay. If you want to argue then argue passionately!!! :-)

manolia

06-10-2007, 01:09 PM

I have still Kate Beckinsale, Kate Winslet, Keira Knightly, Jessica Alba...and the list continues :-)

Nice choices Lote ;)

Yes - other WOMEN :-)

I was teasing you Lote (don't you know the chocolate joke?)

I read the articles. Interesting stuff. Speaking for myself, i choose the same type of clothes every day and i haven't noticed any difference and i don't like revealing clothes in general ;) . I don't know if that kind of things can actually be proved or are doomed to stay just theories (merely observations).

Countess

06-10-2007, 01:19 PM

I must be ovulating: :lol: :D :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/mstanyasmith1/NewBikini1-1.jpg

Sorry - I couldn't resist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kathycf

06-10-2007, 01:51 PM

Countess, you may give Lote a heart attack! You know how he is with lovely ladies.

Lote-Tree

06-10-2007, 02:33 PM

I was teasing you Lote (don't you know the chocolate joke?)

Yes I know ;-)
I thought I give you a witty reply back but it has not worked very well ;-(

And chocolate is as much as an aphrodisiac as male seminal fluid :-)

I read the articles. Interesting stuff. Speaking for myself, i choose the same type of clothes every day and i haven't noticed any difference and i don't like revealing clothes in general ;)

Perhaps next time you are ovulating check on how you dress :-)
Just kiddin :-)

I don't know if that kind of things can actually be proved or are doomed to stay just theories (merely observations).

I will try to find the details of that program where they did the ovulation tests on club goers...

I must be ovulating: :lol: :D :p
Sorry - I couldn't resist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh my gosh!!!! :-)

LOL :-) You don't dress like THIS to the clubs do you? :-)

Countess

06-10-2007, 04:15 PM

Oh my gosh!!!! :-)

LOL :-) You don't dress like THIS to the clubs do you? :-)

Only when I'm ovulating. Then for some reason, I have this sudden overwhelming desire to walk around naked. :lol:

Countess, you may give Lote a heart attack! You know how he is with lovely ladies.

Oh I'm hardly lovely (plain Jane here.) Besides - Lote likes brunettes (check his list o fine women). I'm not even a candidate. ;)

Virgil

06-10-2007, 04:34 PM

Oh I'm hardly lovely (plain Jane here.) Besides - Lote likes brunettes (check his list o fine women). I'm not even a candidate. ;)

You keep in pretty good shape, Countess. What do you for exercise? Do you go to a gym? And if Lote can't see your beauty then he's blind. ;)

RobinHood3000

06-10-2007, 04:46 PM

Just popped in, and my, that was a lot to catch up on. A few things -

1. I think, so far, Kilted's opinion most closely parallels my own of anyone's here on the main issue.

2. "But believe me - deprive men of sex for a week and they will fancy 80 year old quite easily :-)" More true than you might think. Scary, no?

3. Studies performed a) on volunteers, b) in a public venue where attendance is NOT random, and c) based on a subjective variable (how revealing clothing is) amounts to a load of hooey. Sorry.

I think that the idea of women not dating nice men is an illusory phenomenon. I think that women don't date men who CONSIDER themselves nice men. If any of you have ever read the Internet-circulating piece "The Ode To Nice Guys," you possess all the information necessary to conclude that a lot of the young males who think that they are nice men are in actuality whiny, delusional, and drowning in self-pity - not to put too fine a point on it. (Just so you know, Lote, this is in no way an accusation that you are among the demographic of which I speak). My girlfriend's best friend found something online that I think summarizes my thoughts on the point better than anything else.

The cynical counterpart/antidote to the saccharine sentimentality of the Ode To Nice Guys:

I just recently spotted the "Ode To Nice Guys" again, when I thought it had become all but extinct on the Internet. I've generally been somewhat ambivalent at best (and vaguely disdainful at worst) towards that particular brand of blog-borne sentimentalism, but I figured that for something as notorious as the Ode, I could see if I could come up with anything aphoristic (a fancy word meaning fortune-cookie-profound) or witty about it at 11 at night.

Anyways, what I ended up writing reeked of a combination of pompous and pretentious, so clearly, the answer to that question is "no." Instead, I decided to write a more focused response to the Ode, because trying to write a whole new paradigm on life based on the idea of the "True Nice Guy" is asking for headaches. I know the footnotes are a dorky form of presentation – my apologies. If you've read this far, I'm hoping I've captured enough of your interest that you don't mind.

"Ode to the Nice Guys

This is a tribute to the nice guys. The nice guys that finish last, that never become more than friends, that endure hours of whining and *****ing about what *******s guys are, while disproving the very point. This is dedicated to those guys who always provide a shoulder to lean on but restrain themselves to tentative hugs, those guys who hold open doors and give reassuring pats on the back and sit patiently outside the changing room at department stores. This is in honor of the guys that obligingly reiterate how cute/beautiful/smart/funny/sexy their female friends are at the appropriate moment, because they know most girls need that litany of support. ***1*** This is in honor of the guys with open minds, with laid-back attitudes, with honest concern. This is in honor of the guys who respect a girl’s every facet, from her privacy to her theology to her clothing style.

This is for the guys who escort their drunk, bewildered female friends back from parties and never take advantage once they’re at her door, ***2*** for the guys who accompany girls to bars as buffers against the rest of the creepy male population, for the guys who know a girl is fishing for compliments but give them out anyway, ***3*** for the guys who always play by the rules in a game where the rules favor cheaters, for the guys who are accredited as boyfriend material but somehow don’t end up being boyfriends, for all the nice guys who are overlooked, underestimated, and unappreciated, for all the nice guys who are manipulated, misled, and unjustly abandoned, this is for you.

This is for that time she left 40 urgent messages on your cell phone, and when you called her back, she spent three hours painstakingly dissecting two sentences her boyfriend said to her over dinner. And even though you thought her boyfriend was a chump and a jerk, you assured her that it was all ok and she shouldn’t worry about it. ***4*** This is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 ***4 and a half*** to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours ***4 and three-quarters*** and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor. ***5*** This is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should. ***6*** And I wish I could logically explain this trend, but I can’t. From what I have observed on campus and what I have learned from talking to friends at other schools and in the workplace, the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative *****es. ***7*** Many of them claim they just want to date a nice guy, but when presented with such a specimen, they say irrational, confusing things such as “oh, he’s too nice to date” or “he would be a good boyfriend but he’s not for me” or “he already puts up with so much from me, ***8*** I couldn’t possibly ask him out!” or the most frustrating of all: “no, it would ruin our friendship.” Yet, they continue to lament the lack of datable men in the world, and they expect their too-nice-to-date male friends to sympathize and apologize for the men that are jerks. Sorry, guys, girls like that are beyond my ability to fathom. I can’t figure out why the connection breaks down between what they say (I want a nice guy!) and what they do (I’m going to sleep with this complete *** now!). But one thing I can do, is say that the nice-guy-finishes-last phenomenon doesn’t last forever. There are definitely many girls who grow out of that train of thought and realize they should be dating the nice guys, not taking them for granted. The tricky part is finding those girls, and even trickier, finding the ones that are single. ***9***

So, until those girls are found, I propose a toast to all the nice guys. You know who you are, and I know you’re sick of hearing yourself described as ubiquitously nice. ***10*** But the truth of the matter is, the world needs your patience in the department store, your holding open of doors, your party escorting services, your propensity to be a sucker for a pretty smile. For all the crazy, inane, absurd things you tolerate, for all the situations where you are the faceless, nameless hero, ***11*** my accolades, my acknowledgement, and my gratitude go out to you. You do have credibility in this society, and your well deserved vindication is coming."

1. There is no "appropriate moment." There's times when it's true, and times when it's not. Know the difference. Compliment accordingly. And for those of you who are particularly dense, that means you compliment when you mean it and keep quiet when you don't. (This axiom is trumped in situations where self-esteem boosts are necessary to circumvent desperate measures.)

2. Alternately, you could help them not become drunk and bewildered. Y'know, for those times when you're not around to serve as supplementary inhibitions (and if you're always around, someone between the two of you needs a restraining order).

3. Don't patronize. It's rude. See item 1.

4. Or, if she's dating a chump and a jerk, you could DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. You *are* her friend, right?

4.5. Whatever happened to WHOLESOME violent games like Diablo II and the Elder Scrolls series?

4.75. Two words: SAVE. FILE. If neither pausing nor saving is for you, know this much: multitasking with violent games and phone conversations doesn't end pretty. TRUST ME. A girl in tears over the perceived end of her social life doesn't need to hear you screaming "Die, Die, DIE!!" on the other end of the line.

5. Now that's just vicious. Whatever happened to being a nice guy? Or are you only nice to people you want to date?

6. …and this is a problem how? If you are a nice guy because you are under the impression-slash-delusion that you will be getting laid more than the nasty guys, do you belong among the nice guys? Clue: NO.

7. What's your point? In what dimension are these girls the kind of people you'd want to be friends with, anyway? Or are you one of the guys in it for the getting laid?

8. There are a lot of people who put everyone else before themselves 100% of the time, and they're perfectly pleasant doormats to be around.

9. If they're the kind of girls who date nice guys, shouldn't you be happy for her (because she's found one) as well as him (because he's finally been recognized)? Bitterness and resentment are not flattering emotional responses, to say nothing of jealousy.

10. I, for one, would not be tired of being called ubiquitously nice. But then, I imagine I'm rather far from being ubiquitously nice. Regardless, "nice guy" will always be a compliment. Take it as such. If you are so genuinely and consistently nice that you actually get sick of it, perform two miracles and apply for canonization.

11. Nice guys are like the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Men In Black (both of which are exceedingly cool). If you're going to be a nice guy, learn to deal with the anonymity. Comes with the territory. Sorry, fellas. You don't have to like it, but hey, being faceless isn't so bad. Just look at The Question.

Feel free to post thoughts, corollaries, opinions, corrections, or adjustments. And just so you know, in no way do I claim to be a Nice Guy. That status can be determined only by others.

Lote-Tree

06-10-2007, 05:03 PM

Only when I'm ovulating. Then for some reason, I have this sudden overwhelming desire to walk around naked. :lol:

Ha ha :-)

Countess you will bowl over all the nice the nice men like skittles in a bowling alley!!! :-) They will be knocked out for ten!!!

You keep in pretty good shape, Countess. What do you for exercise? Do you go to a gym? And if Lote can't see your beauty then he's blind. ;)

Nay, not blind. Long as men have eyes to see so this gives life to thee :-)

Oh I'm hardly lovely (plain Jane here.) Besides - Lote likes brunettes (check his list o fine women). I'm not even a candidate. ;)

LOL :-)

They happen to be brunette - I never thought of this way! I think they will be still beautiful if they were blonde, brown haired etc..!

Shalot

06-10-2007, 05:10 PM

I must be ovulating: :lol: :D :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/mstanyasmith1/NewBikini1-1.jpg

Sorry - I couldn't resist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that you or did you photoshop? (or fireworks)

Lote-Tree

06-10-2007, 05:13 PM

(Just so you know, Lote, this is in no way an accusation that you are among the demographic of which I speak).

Don't worry. I am not a "nice guy" Robinhood ;-) Nor would I consider myself as a "nice guy". As I said before I can be shockingly "cruel" but only with my tongue ;-)

The reason for this thread is that I have female friends that desire "nice guys" in their life but always go for the "un-nice" guys that treat them like a dog...

RobinHood3000

06-10-2007, 05:18 PM

Ah, yes, well, regarding that phenomenon...I think a lot of women feel special if the guy they're dating is nicer to them than they are to others. They feel privileged to be on the inside of their man's world, but find that the side being shown to them is the illusion, rather than vice versa.

kathycf

06-10-2007, 06:19 PM

I will try to find the details of that program where they did the ovulation tests on club goers...
And they will still be inconclusive because they don't sample the general female population of reproductive age...but one small sub-section of club goers.

Oh I'm hardly lovely (plain Jane here.) Besides - Lote likes brunettes (check his list o fine women). I'm not even a candidate. ;)
I call them as I see them, Countess. :)

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-10-2007, 07:33 PM

Don't worry. I am not a "nice guy" Robinhood ;-) Nor would I consider myself as a "nice guy". As I said before I can be shockingly "cruel" but only with my tongue ;-)

The reason for this thread is that I have female friends that desire "nice guys" in their life but always go for the "un-nice" guys that treat them like a dog...

People who get laid often know how to control female emotions. Nice guys supplicate and try to "win them over," which most women intuitively find pathetic.

Shalot

06-10-2007, 07:37 PM

People who get laid often know how to control female emotions. Nice guys supplicate and try to "win them over," which most women intuitively find pathetic.

That's hilarious.

Countess

06-10-2007, 08:32 PM

Is that you or did you photoshop? (or fireworks)

Nope. That's me. Check out all those bruises on my legs from 2nd shift stock. If I were going to photoshop, I would have "cloned" those until they were gone!

I look like I've been beaten from the waist down. :lol: :lol:

People who get laid often know how to control female emotions. Nice guys supplicate and try to "win them over," which most women intuitively find pathetic.

Unfortunately, you're right. The ladies-man (the seasoned one) claims to be shy; acts shy for a few days; is affectionate, attentive and complimentary for the first few weeks, then pulls away ever so slightly, forcing the woman to stop backing away and step forward, then completely withdraws until he's got the woman chasing him.

"Hit and Run Prey Catcher" tactic. Works every time, even on those of us who know better.

B-Mental

06-10-2007, 08:41 PM

I'll toss out my experience as a mildly bi-polar nice guy. When it rains it pours, and when I'm manic it pours women. I go from being this nice guy that obeys societal norms of respecting people and always without a significant female companion, to this person caught up in creative thoughts, art, what will you. Women seem to find this manic me, well, irresistible.

One thing I do notice as a nice guy is women are always like why can't my boyfriend/husband be like you line. That line is encouraging and discouraging every time I hear it.

Also, I don't sit back and just hope someone will come meet me, but the women always remember when you are manic and thats the one they are interested in.

Countess

06-10-2007, 08:50 PM

You keep in pretty good shape, Countess. What do you for exercise? Do you go to a gym? ;)

I worked out hard for about 13 years, but 5 hours hard labor lifting heavy boxes/bags and pulling 1000 pound pallets to the floor for 3 hours is enough for me these days - stocking is not just my job, its my workout too.

I don't see an in-shape person when I look at that picture, though. I just see a smaller blob, as opposed to a larger one.

mtpspur

06-10-2007, 09:04 PM

:yawnb: Countess--Just saw the picture--now if I can just keep the long suffering wife from finding the kleenix tissues that are adding up with drool and I'm off the hook. Thank goodness you don't wear glasses.;)

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-10-2007, 09:34 PM

Unfortunately, you're right. The ladies-man (the seasoned one) claims to be shy; acts shy for a few days; is affectionate, attentive and complimentary for the first few weeks, then pulls away ever so slightly, forcing the woman to stop backing away and step forward, then completely withdraws until he's got the woman chasing him.

"Hit and Run Prey Catcher" tactic. Works every time, even on those of us who know better.

This seems like an instance of what generally goes on (which I suppose has worked), though the end result should be when the chick is the one actively pursuing the guy. Disinterest is a veritable ticket to getting laid.

Some more things that seem to work wonders:

Win her friends over
Sort of ignore her
Agree with 80% of what she says, disagree on some trifles
Booze
No compliments
Tell her how she is so different than other chicks
Confess one or two minor flaws so she doesn't think you're full of ****
Sort of respect her but not really

It doesn't matter that you're an unemplyed alcoholic, if you more or less treat her like a five year old then you can sleep with her. All chicks are the same in this respect, just like all men like tits and thighs.

Recall that humans have not evolved much in the past 10,000 years. Vulgarities like big boobs and being a self-confident dick definitely still work. I don't make the rules.

Shalot

06-10-2007, 09:52 PM

This seems like an instance of what generally goes on (which I suppose has worked), though the end result should be when the chick is the one actively pursuing the guy. Disinterest is a veritable ticket to getting laid.

Some more things that seem to work wonders:

Win her friends over
Sort of ignore her
Agree with 80% of what she says, disagree on some trifles
Booze
No compliments
Tell her how she is so different than other chicks
Confess one or two minor flaws so she doesn't think you're full of ****
Sort of respect her but not really

It doesn't matter that you're an unemplyed alcoholic, if you more or less treat her like a five year old then you can sleep with her. All chicks are the same in this respect, just like all men like tits and thighs.

Recall that humans have not evolved much in the past 10,000 years. Vulgarities like big boobs and being a self-confident dick definitely still work. I don't make the rules.

Still works to a point, but the SCD better watch out for the girls who have SCDs for fathers. Or worse. What goes around comes around...

kathycf

06-10-2007, 10:15 PM

Win her friends over
Sort of ignore her
Agree with 80% of what she says, disagree on some trifles
Booze
No compliments
Tell her how she is so different than other chicks
Confess one or two minor flaws so she doesn't think you're full of ****
Sort of respect her but not really
Heh heh, that is absolutely hilarious. You should write a for a sitcom. Something that airs on the WB, maybe? :D

It doesn't matter that you're an unemplyed alcoholic, if you more or less treat her like a five year old then you can sleep with her. All chicks are the same in this respect, just like all men like tits and thighs.
Hey women! Look here! Personal integrity, self respect and personal moral compass be damned! :lol:

If that was really all it took, I would never be able to post here, because I would be romping in my bedroom constantly with all the BS I hear from men. I dislike drinking, and despise people who condescend to me. I can't speak for "chicks" in this matter, but lots of women are not so stupid as to fall for immature mind games and blatant manipulation. Here is an idea for all the "nice guys" having trouble with women...try treating her as a PERSON. :idea:

RobinHood3000

06-10-2007, 10:25 PM

The last sentence of Kathy's post hits on another reason why self-proclaimed "nice guys" so frequently fail, albeit in an unintended sense. They place the woman of their affections on a pedestal and worship her, rather than talk to her eye-to-eye. They're basically overcompensating for the condescension of the nasty guys. Of course, when the guy has got his face to the ground and the girl is standing on a four-foot block of marble, it makes it really hard to have an engaging conversation.

And Ralph, please tell me that "getting laid," as you put it, isn't your primary objective.

Countess

06-11-2007, 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=RobinHood3000;391508] Of course, when the guy has got his face to the ground and the girl is standing on a four-foot block of marble, it makes it really hard to have an engaging conversation.[QUOTE]

I've been on that four-foot block of marble a few times, and it scares the heck out of me. Nothing will make me run away faster than being worshipped.

So, if you ever want to get rid of me, place me on a pedestal and begin singing hymns of praise and I will disappear faster than a child at the site of Michael Jackson.

Virgil

06-11-2007, 10:40 AM

The last sentence of Kathy's post hits on another reason why self-proclaimed "nice guys" so frequently fail, albeit in an unintended sense. They place the woman of their affections on a pedestal and worship her, rather than talk to her eye-to-eye. They're basically overcompensating for the condescension of the nasty guys. Of course, when the guy has got his face to the ground and the girl is standing on a four-foot block of marble, it makes it really hard to have an engaging conversation.

Oh that's rediculous. My wife would never accuse me of putting her on a pedastal. ;) Of course you may not consider me a nice guy. ;) I would think there are several sub-catagories to the notion of nice guys. Can you just lump together 1 billion men (I'm thinking worldwide here) into one catagory?

kilted exile

06-11-2007, 10:43 AM

Oh that's rediculous. My wife would never accuse me of putting her on a pedastal. ;) Of course you may not consider me a nice guy. ;) I would think there are several sub-catagories to the notion of nice guys. Can you just lump together 1 billion men (I'm thinking worldwide here) into one catagory?

I agree. I like to consider myself a nice guy, but like the song says "It aint me babe"

RobinHood3000

06-11-2007, 12:17 PM

Apologies - I was referring, indeed, to a particular subcategory. Is anyone else familiar with the Nice Guy (proper noun) described in the Ode quoted on the last page, the one who goes out of his way to be a doormat in the hopes of getting a Milk-Bone (in favor form) from his goddess?

Niamh

06-11-2007, 12:25 PM

- stocking is not just my job, its my workout too.

Thats what i always tell my boyfriend. Pushing cages full of mags, costant lifting, moving and dragging stock, not to mention the constant walking back and frth across the airport for an eight shift is more than enough exercise for me!

kathycf

06-11-2007, 01:57 PM

Vulgarities like big boobs and being a self-confident dick definitely still work. I don't make the rules.
I forgot to comment on this last night, actually. I would just like to point out that large breasts are NOT vulgar. You may as well say brown hair is vulgar, or freckles. They are inherited genetic traits, all of them. The primary purpose of breasts tends to get overlooked but their function is first and foremost a means for a mother to provide nutrition to her infant. Breasts in a sexual context is secondary...

How someone chooses to display their breasts may well be considered vulgar, but the human body is NOT vulgar in and of itself.

Apologies - I was referring, indeed, to a particular subcategory. Is anyone else familiar with the Nice Guy (proper noun) described in the Ode quoted on the last page, the one who goes out of his way to be a doormat in the hopes of getting a Milk-Bone (in favor form) from his goddess?
I get you here Robin. I think the statement applies to the guys who go on about "Nice guys finish last" and it was also to that sub-category that my remark about treating a woman as a person also applies. But I think that is advice that both men AND women could use.

Haven

06-11-2007, 03:13 PM

Why do women "generally" not like nice men?

Why do they go after men that treat them like a dog?

I speak of course from anecdotal evidence and of experience from having women friends.

I have seen them get involved with men that are really unpleasant - even when they are told that that these men are unpleasant human beings.

Why this is so?

What is it about the women Psychy that go after these "bad" guys?

Any thoughts :-)

You ,Lote-Tree, are very good at stirring the 'gender' debate. I think you have an ability to 'get under the skin' as an irritation that is. But I admire, your ability to do so. If I were wearing a hat [pretty tricky with a big horn in the middle of my forehead] I would take it off to you, as a gesture of respect for your 'genius'.

So, women don't 'generally' like nice men? So, we must therefore assume that... 'Men don't make passes at women who wear glasses' Hmm? These are very old cliches... tired out. I have many women friends who like men who are in the current venacular 'in touch with their feminine sides'. ;). Picking up on your 'bad' guys comment. Plenty of men go for the 'bad' girls in this life. So maybe it's just down to chemistry. Some people like to play it safe. Others like to stir things up and some like a 'walk on the wildside'. :D

PS Dr Ralph is too weird for me.

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-11-2007, 03:38 PM

Heh heh, that is absolutely hilarious. You should write a for a sitcom. Something that airs on the WB, maybe? :D

Hey women! Look here! Personal integrity, self respect and personal moral compass be damned! :lol:

If that was really all it took, I would never be able to post here, because I would be romping in my bedroom constantly with all the BS I hear from men. I dislike drinking, and despise people who condescend to me. I can't speak for "chicks" in this matter, but lots of women are not so stupid as to fall for immature mind games and blatant manipulation. Here is an idea for all the "nice guys" having trouble with women...try treating her as a PERSON. :idea:

No, I am sure you respond quite positively to playful banter and not being entirely respected (I hardly said "condescend"). I didn't say that women enjoy being treated poorly, they simply respond sexually as a result of it. Granted, not all women are so aptly taken in by such nonsense, but complete absence of it will not turn you on, much like a woman with bad looks and a bad body will not arouse a man. Believe it or not, you're not in control of the hormones which incline your sexual behavior.

I believe you misunderstood how I used "vulgar." I was referencing the bare and carnal appeal of breasts and thighs, and certainly not that they are despicable and uncivilized in and of themselves.

The smartest women I've known are in no way exempt from these predetermined biological rules; attraction has nothing to do with intelligence. Thre are no "tricks" involved so please don't pretend that you're "not dumb enough" to be affected by "blatant manipulation", or instead, sexual attraction. If you read what I wrote earlier, said "hmmm," and then went back to reading Physics, then you have a case.

Here's something I think is relevant, name the author and I'll owe you a coke. "But I'm not lying, it's all true; unfortunately, the truth is hardly ever witty. You, I can see, are decidedly expecting something great from me, and perhaps even beautiful. That's a pity, because I give only what I can..."

Turk

06-11-2007, 04:02 PM

The smartest women I've known are in no way exempt from these predetermined biological rules; attraction has nothing to do with intelligence.

Ortega y Gasset tells love definetely has a direct relation with intelligence.

Also maybe for most of men sexualattraction (there's types of attraction too) comes first but i've seen many really attractive girls who prefers less attractive intelligent men (in fact a research showed in Turkey at least; females firstly look for personality and intelligence while men firstly looking for sexual attractivity). And for me, intelligence comes first. Because i can't stand a stupid but beatiful girl, i can't act like someone different just because a female has bigger breasts.:yawnb:

Lote-Tree

06-11-2007, 04:40 PM

You ,Lote-Tree, are very good at stirring the 'gender' debate.

LOL :-) Haven. The thread is a genuine enquiry into why women don't like nice men. And many have given intelligent response as to why this might be so :-)

I think you have an ability to 'get under the skin' as an irritation that is.

If it is in the vein of "Socratian Gadfly" then I make no apologies :-) I am ready to drink my cup of hemlock :-) But if it is something else then I offer my apologies. I do not see myself as an irritant but perhaps failing in my attempts at being "thought provoking" :-)

If I were wearing a hat [pretty tricky with a big horn in the middle of my forehead]....

What genetic misfortune has placed the "horn" in the wrong place Haven? :-) and if you are women what genetic calamaty has caused you to grow "horns"? :-)

I am jokin off course :-)

I would take it off to you, as a gesture of respect for your 'genius'.

There is a fine line between Genius and Madness but I am neither ;-)

So, women don't 'generally' like nice men?

Seems so Haven but I said I speak from anecdotal evidence and personal experiences of having women friends.

So, we must therefore assume that... 'Men don't make passes at women who wear glasses' Hmm?

Men are different category of people. Their motivations on the whole are quite clear. They can have sex without any emotional attachments.

These are very old cliches... tired out.

Cliches always have some basis of truth.

I have many women friends who like men who are in the current venacular 'in touch with their feminine sides'. ;).

Some will call them "sissy" men :-) others will say it is a sop to getting laid :-)

Picking up on your 'bad' guys comment. Plenty of men go for the 'bad' girls in this life.

Men usually go for women that are beautiful and sexually available. Their motivations can be very simple and quite clear:-)

So maybe it's just down to chemistry.

Men's chemistry is very simple it is Testerone :-)

Some people like to play it safe.

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-)

Others like to stir things up and some like a 'walk on the wildside'. :D

That may be so. Challenge is to sussed them out both ;-)

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-11-2007, 04:41 PM

It was a reply to an earlier post, I meant that you can't consciously change your sexuality with reasoning and intelligence. You quoted me out of context.

RobinHood3000

06-11-2007, 04:53 PM

I think Ralph has some semblance of a point. You can't control to whom you're attracted on a sexual level (I don't think), but you can control the extent to which non-sexual factors modify that attraction. Society has reached the point where intellectual stimulation and sexual attraction have hit a synergy, where good chemistry in the former can add to the strength of the latter.

Lote-Tree

06-11-2007, 05:04 PM

females firstly look for personality and intelligence

I thought it was the wallet first ;-)

Niamh

06-11-2007, 05:21 PM

I thought it was the wallet first ;-)

tut tut Lote!

kathycf

06-11-2007, 05:27 PM

... I didn't say that women enjoy being treated poorly, they simply respond sexually as a result of it. Granted, not all women are so aptly taken in by such nonsense, but complete absence of it will not turn you on, much like a woman with bad looks and a bad body will not arouse a man. Believe it or not, you're not in control of the hormones which incline your sexual behavior.
While not in charge of hormones, I have to point out that behavior is also governed by the mind...how I respond is also a function of my personality and tastes...I am to a degree in control of those. Not everybody responds to the same stimuli, life is not a cookie cutter situation where *everybody* is turned on by the same stuff. I don't respond well at all to stupid mind games. period. I have a whole life history that you are not aware of, so the cookie cutter approach to "what turns women on" simply doesn't work. Your points may well be valid for some of the population, but they cannot be applied to millions of people of whom you know nothing.

I believe you misunderstood how I used "vulgar." I was referencing the bare and carnal appeal of breasts and thighs, and certainly not that they are despicable and uncivilized in and of themselves.
Fair enough. I took it as one more tired cliche about women with large breasts... of which there are more than enough.... because you mentioned "big boobs". I understand there is carnal appeal about certain parts of the body.

The smartest women I've known are in no way exempt from these predetermined biological rules; attraction has nothing to do with intelligence. Thre are no "tricks" involved so please don't pretend that you're "not dumb enough" to be affected by "blatant manipulation", or instead, sexual attraction. If you read what I wrote earlier, said "hmmm," and then went back to reading Physics, then you have a case.
Sorry, not following why I have to present a case or not. I stated my opinion. If these aren't "tricks", than what are they?

Tell her how she is so different than other chicks
Confess one or two minor flaws so she doesn't think you're full of ****
Sort of respect her but not really

Again, these are the sorts of statements that read like some sort of formulaic "How to score with Women!". Anybody who tells me how I am different from "other chicks" I tend to suspect is trying to run me a line of BS. I am not always a very trusting person. Further, how does one "sort of respect" someone, "but not really"? I went through plenty of disrespect in my life, and in no way, shape or form do I respond to being disrespected or even "sort of" respected.

Implying that all women want to be treated like five year olds IS condescending. Implying that all one needs is to run a line of BS while treating some woman like a five year old and hey, presto, in the sack!...How can that be taken as not condescending? It is patronizing in the extreme. Again, this sort of stereotypical "what women want" sort of thing implies that all women are looking for the same things. Nope, don't think so. Some women may wish to be treated like children, sure. Many more don't.

Here's something I think is relevant, name the author and I'll owe you a coke. "But I'm not lying, it's all true; unfortunately, the truth is hardly ever witty. You, I can see, are decidedly expecting something great from me, and perhaps even beautiful. That's a pity, because I give only what I can..."
No idea what you are talking about here. *edit* Oh, ok you are quoting somebody and want me to name who. Um, no clue. But...just because you think what you have stated is true doesn't obligate to me to believe the same thing, just as you are not obligated to take what I say as "true" and agree with it. I put forth the idea that not everybody responds to the same stimuli. That's the beauty of having a will and intelligence of one's own. :)

Turk

06-11-2007, 05:42 PM

I thought it was the wallet first ;-)

:yawnb: Yeah i thought of it too. That research was actually made in 80's, when capitalism is not so much developed in Turkey and while there's only state TVs. In fact in a society which believes money is the most important thing and supreme over everything (capitalist society) no matter how ugly or stupid you are, you still an attractive man if you have money.

kathycf

06-11-2007, 05:53 PM

In fact in a society which believes money is the most important thing and supreme over everything (capitalist society) no matter how ugly or stupid you are, you still an attractive man if you have money.

Not always. :) Donald Trump is a rich man and I wouldn't touch him with a 60 foot pole because he strikes me as an arrogant SOB with none of the same values as me.

My ex-husband was an illegal immigrant in the US when I first met him, working jobs under the table. I fell in love with him for several reasons, none of which had to do with money. I have never been wealthy, and don't consider money to be supreme. I am certainly not an anomoly in this, I know many people who feel the same.

While I will agree that there are many people who do place an inordinately high value on money over everything, to say that all do is false. People are more often than not more complex than the sum of their stereotypes and cliches.

Niamh

06-11-2007, 05:59 PM

some people might go for guys because of their "wallet", but i can safely say that i do not! If a guy starts showing off and flaunting his money at me, i cringe. And as i'm always telling my boyfriend, there is more to life than wealth. I speak for myself when i say that, i'd rather be poor than with a rich guy who looks down on poverty.

Turk

06-11-2007, 06:18 PM

Not always.

Of course i don't claim always. I would also like to say money attraction is shallow too, so he/she didn't like the man, but they liked what he have, money. Let's leave love, that's not even to like someone.

some people might go for guys because of their "wallet", but i can safely say that i do not! If a guy starts showing off and flaunting his money at me, i cringe. And as i'm always telling my boyfriend, there is more to life than wealth. I speak for myself when i say that, i'd rather be poor than with a rich guy who looks down on poverty.

I believe your comment, but i will make a general comment; most of women would tell definetly same thing with you, but when the time come most of them would choose money.

Haven

06-11-2007, 06:29 PM

LOL :-) Haven. The thread is a genuine enquiry into why women don't like nice men. And many have given intelligent response as to why this might be so :-)
If it is in the vein of "Socratian Gadfly" then I make no apologies

Men are different category of people. Their motivations on the whole are quite clear. They can have sex without any emotional attachments.

Cliches always have some basis of truth.

Some will call them "sissy" men :-) others will say it is a sop to getting laid :-)

Men usually go for women that are beautiful and sexually available. Their motivations can be very simple and quite clear:-)

Men's chemistry is very simple it is Testerone :-)

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-)

That may be so. Challenge is to sussed them out both ;-)

I too like the Socratic approach. Ask your question, and leave it to the muppets to answer. That is what you do so well. This is of course in no way a criticism, purely an observation.

In your forum persona, you appear male. It is impossible to know the gender, age, orientation of a forum member, even should they choose to disclose 'evidence' about themselves. Therefore, you summation on the desires and choices of women is of course suspect and I would also have to add, disrespectful.

You assume based on your supposed/assumed sexual orientation that it is only men that are capable of having sex "without any emotional attachments". Based on my understanding of your experience it would be that you have apparently only one expression of sexuality :quantify: that is if you can.

"Cliches always have some basis of truth"... A cliché is a phrase, expression, or idea that has been overused to the point of losing its intended force or novelty, especially when at some time it was considered distinctively forceful or novel. It is generally used in a negative context.
Goodness, that's a bit of a bummer...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clich%C3%A9

Now, I believe in my referencing 'men in touch with their feminine side', perhaps I touched a nerve? Your reply:

"Sissy men, sop to getting laid"... Men usually go for women that are beautiful and sexually available. Their motivations can be very simple and quite clear:-).

Men's chemistry is very simple it is Testerone :-)

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-).

How terribly simplistic. I think that you disrespect both genders here. Nonetheless Lote-Tree, I hope that you continue with your various queries, as I have to say, they are fun! Best wishes, Haven.

kathycf

06-11-2007, 07:04 PM

Men are different category of people. Their motivations on the whole are quite clear. They can have sex without any emotional attachments.

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-)

My earlier comment about this disappeared into the Twlight Zone, which is fine, because it opened with me being very sarcastic. That was discourteous, and I was going to edit it...but no matter.

Basically, I am wondering if we do discredit to both sexes by oversimplifying what each wants, feels, and looks for in a mate. None of us are qualified to speak for all the other members of our sex. Simply because I am a woman doesn't mean I have any deep insights into what other women think, what they want and respond to. We are all individuals and while some of us may have things in common...that isn't enough to qualify us to simply assume because WE may want something...everybody else does too.

Cliches always have some basis of truth.
There are cliches that may have once had some basis in truth...there are also many that have absolutely no basis in truth at all and they are created from people's biases and prejudices. Cliches and stereotypes seem lazy to me...instead of assuming, why not simply try to find out?

In your forum persona, you appear male. It is impossible to know the gender, age, orientation of a forum member, even should they choose to disclose 'evidence' about themselves. Therefore, you summation on the desires and choices of women is of course suspect and I would also have to add, disrespectful.

You assume based on your supposed/assumed sexual orientation that it is only men that are capable of having sex "without any emotional attachments". Based on my understanding of your experience it would be that you have apparently only one expression of sexuality :quantify: that is if you can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clich%C3%A9
Yep, thank you for putting this so simply and clearly. I was trying to make the point earlier and so you have done so better than I did. :thumbs_up :)

Men's chemistry is very simple it is Testerone :-)

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-).

How terribly simplistic. I think that you disrespect both genders here.

I think this is so true! Plus, I assumed the thread was talking about relationships...and typically speaking relationships encompass more than sex. Some men may only think of "getting laid" just as some women think of "Prince Charming". Doesn't mean that every man or every woman thinks like that.

ennison

06-11-2007, 07:12 PM

'We are all individuals ' Hallelujah!

kathycf

06-11-2007, 07:17 PM

'We are all individuals ' Hallelujah!
Sorry ennison, are you referring to my post? When you quote someone it would help if you say who you are quoting.

I'm afraid I am feeling extremely cranky at the moment and it strikes me you are being sarcastic about some comment I made. Could you clarify why you are saying "Hallelujah"? Just as I pointed out my own sarcasm was disrespectful...in turn I am feeling a bit put off. Sorry if I am misinterpreting this.

ennison

06-11-2007, 07:30 PM

I agree

kathycf

06-11-2007, 07:34 PM

I agree
Ok, my apologies for being suspicious. It isn't a reflection on you personally anyway...it is a character defect on my part to be overly defensive. Thanks for clarifying.

ennison

06-11-2007, 07:37 PM

And as for me - ironic often but sarcastic never. Also rhinoceros hided.

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-11-2007, 10:39 PM

Okay, don't get upset. Flowers, dinner and a movie is cookie cutter, not what I wrote.

Would you say that 90-95% of men on Earth would like to sleep with a physically attractive woman? Of course. Similarly, 90-95% of women would like to sleep with an "alpha male" or "Don Juan." Tastes and preferences are irrelevant; besides, if you have a checklist of qualities you want your partner to have then you're a little crazy.

I am sorry that you think I am giving out formulas on how to get women; that was not the intent at all and I think you're the only one interpretating it that way. I'm posting what I've found to be true and anything beyond that is something you have made up on your own. I don't make the rules

crisaor

06-12-2007, 01:31 AM

I pondered endlessly this very question in my high school years, to no avail.

Either myself or that fact has changed, as I don't have that doubt/problem anymore.

Lote-Tree

06-12-2007, 03:52 AM

tut tut Lote!

I was joking off course ;-)

:yawnb: Yeah i thought of it too. That research was actually made in 80's, when capitalism is not so much developed in Turkey and while there's only state TVs. In fact in a society which believes money is the most important thing and supreme over everything (capitalist society) no matter how ugly or stupid you are, you still an attractive man if you have money.

Physical Attraction is nothing to do with money. It is biology.

And what is this obsession with Capitalism?

I too like the Socratic approach.

Bueno!

Ask your question, and leave it to the muppets to answer.

This is a terrible insult to intelligence of all the forum members here. They are not "muppets" as you say they are individuals with their own unique insight into life.

In your forum persona, you appear male.

I am male.

Therefore, you summation on the desires and choices of women is of course suspect and I would also have to add, disrespectful.

I have asked the question why women do not like nice men. And plenty of women members here have given intelligent answers as to why this might be so. This is no way my summation of women's desires or being to disrespectful to anyone.

You assume based on your supposed/assumed sexual orientation that it is only men that are capable of having sex "without any emotional attachments".

This is one of the those "thought-provoking" statements. Let's explore this?

Based on my understanding of your experience it would be that you have apparently only one expression of sexuality :quantify: that is if you can.

From evolutionary point of view - quantity is the chosen way men can ensure their genes are passed on.

It is generally used in a negative context.[/I]

Even that too makes a point. Negative also must be considered.

Now, I believe in my referencing 'men in touch with their feminine side', perhaps I touched a nerve? Your reply:

No. Haven. There is nothing that people write here can upset me. I am very controlled. My statements were deliberately provocative ;-)

"Sissy men, sop to getting laid"... Men usually go for women that are beautiful and sexually available. Their motivations can be very simple and quite clear:-).

Men's chemistry is very simple it is Testerone :-)

I think Men prefer to get laid on the whole ;-).

How terribly simplistic.

Yep and that's why there is a wink and a smiley at the end of the sentences.

I think that you disrespect both genders here.

See above.

Nonetheless Lote-Tree, I hope that you continue with your various queries, as I have to say, they are fun! Best wishes, Haven.

LOL :-) Haven - I have upset you haven't I?

Instead of engaging in a witty banter it seems that you have taken it very seriously :-(

When it comes to human beings Haven there is no Right or Wrong answer in certain matters like the topic of this thread. Human beings are extremely complex and contradictory. You can't reduce this complexity and contradictions into simplicity except in the interest of some witty banter ;-)

Go in peace Haven.

Shalom, Salaam, Shantih and Peace.

Regards,
Lote.

Haven

06-12-2007, 04:47 AM

I was joking off course ;-)

LOL :-) Haven - I have upset you haven't I?

Instead of engaging in a witty banter it seems that you have taken it very seriously :-(

When it comes to human beings Haven there is no Right or Wrong answer in certain matters like the topic of this thread. Human beings are extremely complex and contradictory. You can't reduce this complexity and contradictions into simplicity except in the interest of some witty banter ;-)

Go in peace Haven.

Shalom, Salaam, Shantih and Peace.

Regards,
Lote.

Thanks Lote, I appreciate the sentiments. I really did mean what I said about these posts that you put up being fun. It is obvious what you are doing, and if my comments seemed a little harsh, then you perhaps weren't reading them in the right 'voice'. ;). Peace too you to Lote. Looking forward to you next post. :D

RobinHood3000

06-12-2007, 08:40 AM

that was not the intent at all and I think you're the only one interpretating it that way.She's not. And saying that you don't make the rules does not pardon an oversimplification of the rules.

Maybe I'm just overly touchy, but regardless of the presence of a ;) smiley, asserting an unfair stereotype (even in jest) still strikes me as being at least a little vicious.

SleepyWitch

06-12-2007, 08:55 AM

boohoo :bawling: I need some advice... the problem is somewhat related to the nice guy- bad guy question, so I thought I'd post it here rather than spamming the forum with a new thread... hope it's OK with you, Lote?

well, here goes:
a friend of mine is together with a guy who seems nice at first glance, but he's a real ***hole in reality. well, that girl isn't really a close friend, more like a univ-mate, but she seems to think we are close friends.
The guy ditched her after a year saying they didn't have enough sex and also he didn't want to be together with a girl who's graduating because he's been there before and he doesn't like his girlfriend to have to spend a lot of time studying for exams. he also said she's only 99% his dream girl and that wasn't enough.

now they've got back together and this guy wants my bf and me to spend our free time with them and is making lots of plans.
he didn't even ask whether we want to spend time with him.
we've only met him twice and I can't stand him... he's superficial, boring, pushy etc.. he goes on forever about his car, his tv set, his computer blablabla blablabla.
plus he kinda flirts with my friend's other girl friend. ... well he doesn't really flirt but his whole posture and body language are kinda "sexual" when he talks to her.
now this guy wants my bf and me to go to a lake and a sauna with them :sick: my friend doesn't like saunas because she doesn't like being in the nude in front of strangers. but the guy wants to persuade her to go anyway.
I like saunas and don't mind being in the nude, but I definitely don't want to go there with a guy who flirts with his girl friends friends and ditched her because she is prudish.

when the guy ditched her, my friend said he's all the things I've said above (superficial etc), but of course she's changed her mind about him now.

so what do I do now? I don't want to be mean to her, but on the other hand I don't want to spend a single second of my life with her guy if I can avoid it.

I could tell her "I don't like it when people plan my free time for me"...
but she can be very tenacious herself.. I don't think she'd get the message. she's think I'm saying "I haven't got time right now, but when I have more time, we can go to the lake together".

I'd prefer to be honest and tell her "listen, just because that guy is your bf doesn't mean I want to be friends with him. plus he's pushy, boring, superficial, generally a shifty character"... but I don't think she's gonna like that...

Virgil

06-12-2007, 09:55 AM

Sleepy - I wouldn't go; just say no, say you can't or don't want to go. It's not going to be fun and you're only inviting him to get better acquainted with you and your boyfriend.

BTW: You go to saunas where everyone is in the nude? :eek2:

Lote-Tree

06-12-2007, 09:56 AM

...and if my comments seemed a little harsh, then you perhaps weren't reading them in the right 'voice'. ;).

You got me there. I shall try to read them with the "right" voice next time :-)

I think in my next life I will try to come back as a women then I will be able to contradict myself - all in the same sentence :D

But I understand you :-)
Thanks.

boohoo :bawling: I need some advice... the problem is somewhat related to the nice guy- bad guy question, so I thought I'd post it here rather than spamming the forum with a new thread... hope it's OK with you, Lote?

No problema :-)

I'd prefer to be honest and tell her "listen, just because that guy is your bf doesn't mean I want to be friends with him. plus he's pushy, boring, superficial, generally a shifty character"... but I don't think she's gonna like that...

Dilema! Dilema! Dilema! This is a toughie Sleepy. Honesty perhaps is the best. But I would speak to your friend first - tell her how you feel about the situation...take it from there. Good luck.

P.S Nude Suanas?!!! I am living in the wrong country!!!

Maybe I'm just overly touchy, but regardless of the presence of a ;) smiley, asserting an unfair stereotype (even in jest) still strikes me as being at least a little vicious.

Comedy would be dead if it was not unfair jest :-)

kilted exile

06-12-2007, 10:07 AM

Sleepy, get your bf to have a word with him and make an excuse about having other plans set already.

kathycf

06-12-2007, 10:38 AM

RobinHood3000

06-12-2007, 11:07 AM

Lote: "A car hits a woman. Who's fault is it?" "The woman's - for being out of the kitchen." Ha. Ha. :sick: Comedic indeed.

Regarding Sleepy's dilemma/conundrum - When making a difficult decision, most people tend to categorize an option as "out of the question" because someone will be insulted, offended, or hurt, but in this situation, I believe you will be hard-pressed to find a tenable solution under those requirements. Your girlfriend does not know what she is getting into, the ***hole is most definitely an ***hole (although, to be fair, I've never met the guy), and the combination of the two is beginning to force both you and your boyfriend into a potentially unpleasant outing. The ***hole's (for apparent lack of a better means of referring to him) flirting is, for the most part, tolerable so long as he does not try anything, simply because body language is so often misinterpreted.

Regarding the sauna outing, I imagine you can politely excuse yourself by telling your friend and her boyfriend that you and your boyfriend would rather spend the day together alone. Your friend will sympathize, her boyfriend (given what appears to be a sex-maniac predisposition) will read into it and sympathize, and you and your boyfriend get a hoppin' good reason to go on a date together. Yay. (But just a suggestion.)

As for the larger problem of your girlfriend being in a relationship with said unsavory character, she will continue to be delusional until a) she recognizes that the character flaws she noticed before are still true now, assuming they are, b) she re-organizes what she's looking for in a boyfriend and realizes that he's not it, c) he breaks up with her again and she wises up, or d) the boyfriend collapses of heat exhaustion in the sauna and a male supermodel walks in as the ***hole is rushed to the hospital. My suspicion is that you will at best be able to play a supporting role in this crisis, but I could be wrong, and regardless, your friend will at some point need your support and help. I sincerely hope she doesn't come to you as a bridesmaid, but we'll address that as it comes.

Also: not that I agree with Ralph's posts, but I don't think he was implying that people were crazy so much as calling the act of writing down/checking off desired qualities crazy.

Mr. Dr. Ralph

06-12-2007, 11:15 AM

She's not. And saying that you don't make the rules does not pardon an oversimplification of the rules.

Maybe I'm just overly touchy, but regardless of the presence of a ;) smiley, asserting an unfair stereotype (even in jest) still strikes me as being at least a little vicious.

I admit that it becomes tiring to listen to emotional responses instead of prepared explanations of why I am wrong. Telling me that it's unfair is entirely beside the point; nature hardly took "fair" into account during our design. I don't see where I went wrong in proposing that women want to mate with attractive men, this seems self-evident. Based on my experience and talking with men who sleep with different women on a regular basis, I am asserting grounded statements which I see can't be considered without cognitive bias.

And please spare me the PC stereotyping nonsense; nobody is stereotyping anyone so there's no reason to condense what I write into a trendy word that attacks my character. What's actually vicious is when girly men badger women with recycled Disney **** like flowers, chocolates and reading poetry in order to impose attraction. What I do is much less manipulative and I don't force anyone to respond to me; if I see that a woman doesn't like me then I go somewhere else, and she doesn't have to worry about me lingering around until she crushes me with similarly recycled weaksauce like "Let's just be friends." Not surprisingly, most women don't want to be with men who willfully cut their balls off.

There's no need to reply, as you won't see me in "General Chat" again.

Countess

06-12-2007, 11:33 AM

Present company excepted (by nature lit-net users would not fit this description b/c lit-net interest implies depth) but my belief is, in general, women are high-paid whores and men are pedophilic johns.

In today's society, women date and marry the man with the most money, making them nothing more than "high-paid whores", and men date and marry the most beautiful and youngest, legal-aged female, making them nothing more than pedophilic johns.

I can't walk out my door without running into these people. They're everywhere, even in Walmart and the gym. Highlighted blondes with deep tans and fake boobs drive fancy Mercedes, and it's not because they are brilliant scientists or accomplished English professors, and it's not because they provide their husbands with intellectually stimulating conversation.

I actually ventured out into the sun two days ago and sat by the pool. I turned my I-POD off for about two nano-seconds to listen, and I could hear the three women sitting by the pool - stay-home moms because daddy makes all the cash - prating "Oh, I went to the wedding and it was beautiful. Frank and I go to the hotel at 4:30, then Suzie called and everyone was going out, so we got a sitter. They had us in make-up at 10:00AM the next day for a whole hour, and there were 350 guests at the Cathedral...". About this point I fantasized about sticking an ice-pick in my eardrum so I didn't have to listen, and decided that would be painful and turned on my I-POD.

Point being, the husband probably doesn't give a rats-*** about stupid make-up and what not, and my guess is he tunes her out when she talks, but she's Jessica Simpson who just had his baby, and that's all that matters to him.

a friend of mine is together with a guy who seems nice at first glance, but he's a real ***hole in reality.

Is his name Anthony? LOL I know the type well. He fits my "Hit-and-Run Prey-Catcher" profile.

he also said she's only 99% his dream girl and that wasn't enough..

Ah, yes. The grass must be greener elsewhere. Somewhere in the world there is greener grass, and as soon as one marries, that grass will appear on one's doorstep, ready and willing.

now they've got back together and this guy wants my bf and me to spend our free time with them and is making lots of plans...

What's his problem? Can't he spend time alone with your friend? I question his authentic interest in her.

he's superficial, boring, pushy etc.. he goes on forever about his car, his tv set, his computer blablabla blablabla.

Does he talk about his I-POD as well? When I first met Anthony he told me he had "people" to do his finances, and had an I-POD and I forget what else. Unfortunately his attempts to impress me with his material wealth had the effect of charming me - it made me laugh out loud simply because I couldn't give a flying heap about his people, his money, his stuff or any of that nonsense.

plus he kinda flirts with my friend's other girl friend. ... well he doesn't really flirt but his whole posture and body language are kinda "sexual" when he talks to her. .

I know this guy.

now this guy wants my bf and me to go to a lake and a sauna with them .

Sounds like Jules/Cass, Nate/Ana outing - a tragedy waiting to happen. (-:

my friend doesn't like saunas because she doesn't like being in the nude in front of strangers. .

Nude - huh?! :blush: I can't blame her.

when the guy ditched her, my friend said he's all the things I've said above (superficial etc), but of course she's changed her mind about him now..

I know your friend as well. Let me tell you about her. She has not changed her mind regarding this Anthony (Anthony is a Jules archetype, btw, with the output turned down half-way.) She realizes he is superficial and boring, but she's in love with him anyway. We could ponder "why good women love bad men" until the cows come home (indeed, "why do women not like nice men" is the same as asking "why good women love bad men") but what it boils down to is those first moments/months/years of bliss: she remembers that happiness/exstasy and is in love with that man still. She wants to return to that state at all costs to herself. Now, the man might be (if he is an Anthony, aka Jules with the volume turned down) partly that man of the days of yore, or, in essence, those qualities represent only part of his full personality. These negative qualities you mention represent another part of his personality. When he broke up with her, she simply refocused her attention on the negative qualities, but was still in love with the positive.

Nothing has changed. She's still in love the feeling she had with him, and with the man he once was. Realists would say he'll never be that person again and give it up, but idealists like me - we'll gamble all on the 1% chance that he'll revert or return to that other side of him we know well - the good side. The diamond in the heap of fecal matter.

All realistic arguments are made in vain. For her to "come to her senses" she'll first have to surrender her dream, and I don't see that she's ready to do that. As for your quandry, you have free-will (contrary to what Anthony might believe). Unlike her you need not be a victim of his control. So, be truthful but tactful:

Tell her you will always be too busy to spend time with him, but if she wishes to spend time with you, you'll find a free moment.

If you're up for a confrontation, go to him privately and let him know you know exactly who he is, and you have no intention of surrendering your free-will to Control Freak.

I'd prefer to be honest and tell her "listen, just because that guy is your bf doesn't mean I want to be friends with him. plus he's pushy, boring, superficial, generally a shifty character"... but I don't think she's gonna like that...

Remember, all realistic arguments are in vain. :lol: But you're free to hate the guy. Just say "I don't like him". She can't argue with that. What is she going to say "Yes, you do?" If she asks why, tell her "I think he's..." - again, you're telling her what you think, you're not labeling him.

Good luck Nate. You've got a Jules and an Ana on your hands.

kathycf

06-12-2007, 12:09 PM

I admit that it becomes tiring to listen to emotional responses instead of prepared explanations of why I am wrong.

My responses were thought out...if all you read in them was an emotional response than I don't think you read them in depth. To me, is seems completely obvious that it takes a heck of a lot more than engaging in "sort of respecting" but "not really" and "telling her how she's not like other chicks" and "treating her like a five year old" to "sleep" with someone. Sexual intimacy often needs to involve a degree of trust...while some people are quite happy to engage in sexual behaviors with people who treat them disrespectfully, others do NOT. Simply put...I don't trust people who treat me disrespectfully, therefore they have 0 chance with me...for anything...not just sex. You made a blanket statement about women's responses and when I pointed out that doesn't apply to everybody, you go on about some "rules. Well, whatever.

I I don't see where I went wrong in proposing that women want to mate with attractive men, this seems self-evident.

I responded to your original list of things that ALL women respond too..and you changing the argument around to be about "emotional responses" is misleading. You weren't discussing "attractive men" you were listing all the things that women supposedly respond to..."it doesn't matter if you are an unemployed alcoholic...if you pretty much treat her like a five year old, you can sleep with her". Does that seem familiar? Treating someone like a five year old and implying that is all it takes to engage in intimate behavior isn't a discussion about "attractiveness".

Scheherazade

06-12-2007, 12:13 PM

In today's society, women date and marry the man with the most money, making them nothing more than "high-paid whores", and men date and marry the most beautiful and youngest, legal-aged female, making them nothing more than pedophilic johns.Marriage's first aim has always been financial. Throughout the history both men and women have married or arranged marriages to secure financial gains.

stay-home moms because daddy makes all the cash A little unfair to many, many stay-home mothers who try to offer the best they can their children?

kathycf

06-12-2007, 12:17 PM

Scheherazade

06-12-2007, 12:21 PM

Final Warning

Please do not personalise your comments.

SleepyWitch

06-12-2007, 12:38 PM

What's his problem? Can't he spend time alone with your friend? I question his authentic interest in her.

nope he can't... he doesn't have any real friends ... he meets up with some colleague or other every weekend, but their "friendship" is very superficial (that's what my friend said herself). so he clings on to her (and also his ex-gf's) friends... he's a kind of friend-collector... he needs to meet up with people every weekend and do something, like play badminton, have a BBQ... but that doesn't mean he's close with those people...
i thin he's the kind of person who can't be alone with himself and read, watch TV, sit around, think, go for a walk.

anyway, yep I think you are right that my friend hasn't given up her dream. the reason they got together again was this: she bought a self-help book that said there are different types of relationships and the one people should aim for is "co-committment" or something... (in which people have common goals and support each other).
so she got enthusiastic about that idea and wrote the guy a whole diary full of stuff it said in the self-help guide ("There must have gone something wrong in our relationship at some point. Let's find out what it was and change it." etcetc blabla). She told me the guy was superficial, weird,etc but she felt he was the one she wants to try this "co-commitment" thingy with and spend the rest of her life with :sick:
---> which makes her another specimen of the "helping-people-thingy"/"want to be the one who can change the guy" species.

Regarding the sauna outing, I imagine you can politely excuse yourself by telling your friend and her boyfriend that you and your boyfriend would rather spend the day together alone. Your friend will sympathize, her boyfriend (given what appears to be a sex-maniac predisposition) will read into it and sympathize, and you and your boyfriend get a hoppin' good reason to go on a date together. Yay. (But just a suggestion.)
............
As for the larger problem of your girlfriend being in a relationship with said unsavory character, she will continue to be delusional until a) she recognizes that the character flaws she noticed before are still true now, assuming they are, b) she re-organizes what she's looking for in a boyfriend and realizes that he's not it, c) he breaks up with her again and she wises up, or d) the boyfriend collapses of heat exhaustion in the sauna and a male supermodel walks in as the ***hole is rushed to the hospital. My suspicion is that you will at best be able to play a supporting role in this crisis, but I could be wrong, and regardless, your friend will at some point need your support and help. I sincerely hope she doesn't come to you as a bridesmaid, but we'll address that as it comes.

hehehhe :) you're hilarious, Robin :)
thanks for your advice :)

Lote, Uncle Virgil, Kilted , thanks a lot for your help :)
I'll think about what you guys said :)

BTW: You go to saunas where everyone is in the nude? :eek2:

sure, is there any other type ;) ?

yep, I do and I think that's the only type of sauna we've got over here.
but i can assure you there nothing interesting to see there :) mostly old grannies and granpops 100 years past their sell-by date :D

RobinHood3000

06-13-2007, 12:32 AM

yep, I do and I think that's the only type of sauna we've got over here.
but i can assure you there nothing interesting to see there :) mostly old grannies and granpops 100 years past their sell-by date :D...doesn't that sound appetizing? :bawling:

Isn't it startling how cliched "Be yourself" sounds when someone tells you to do it compared to how rarely people actually do it? I realize that "Begin with the end in mind" is a habit of highly effective people, but would it kill the superficial to just once enter a relationship spontaneously and without an escape plan?

You can ask my girlfriend if you like, but I like to think I have more originality than flowers/chocolates/a lamp with three wishes. Then again, just because it's original doesn't mean it's all that good. ~shrug~

On a similar note, Misscaroline says hi. :D

Virgil

06-13-2007, 06:59 AM

On a similar note, Misscaroline says hi. :D

Well say hi back for me. How is she doing by the way? Ask her to stop by.

Turk

06-13-2007, 10:12 AM

Physical Attraction is nothing to do with money. It is biology.

And what is this obsession with Capitalism?

Physical attraction is related the culture you grow in more than biology.

And i am not obsessed with capitalism. It's today's economical-social system, so i have to point it many times when i talk about problems of society or economly etc.

Lote-Tree

06-13-2007, 10:16 AM

Physical attraction is related the culture you grow in more than biology.

And your evidence is?

Turk

06-13-2007, 10:39 AM

Lote-Tree

06-13-2007, 10:45 AM

SleepyWitch

06-13-2007, 10:46 AM

There's a lot evidences in history. In China women were wearing very very little shoes which squeezes their feet and keep their feet very little, because it was considered more sexy and attractive, in Europe women were wearing tighest corsets to keep their bellies really thin, in some old cultures fat women considered more beatiful and fertile. If you research a little about history it's really clear beauty firstly related to man's point of view.

yep, I think you've really got a point there.
but in your example, we're still dealing with a) appearance and b) different perspective on appearance.. e.g. different interpretations of "fat", as either beautiful or gross.
but money doesn't really have to do with appearance, does it? even if some women prefer rich men, their money does not make these men look any better.
..on the other hand, maybe those women convince themselves that an ugly rich guy doesn't look that bad at all... like the tell themselves a lie until they believe it ?? is that what you meant?

Turk

06-13-2007, 10:56 AM

These are cultural fetishes as opposed to biological attraction.

How can you tell your explanation of beauty is not a cultural fetish then?

yep, I think you've really got a point there.
but in your example, we're still dealing with a) appearance and b) different perspective on appearance.. e.g. different interpretations of "fat", as either beautiful or gross.
but money doesn't really have to do with appearance, does it? even if some women prefer rich men, their money does not make these men look any better.
..on the other hand, maybe those women convince themselves that an ugly rich guy doesn't look that bad at all... like the tell themselves a lie until they believe it ?? is that what you meant?

I didn't say money have to do something with appearance but it surely makes attractivity. That's why i separated sexual attractivity and other kinds of attraction. Plus there's a psychological effect, that you pointed on your last paragraph. It doesn't work always, but sometimes money even make people look better.

Lote-Tree

06-13-2007, 11:11 AM

How can you tell your explanation of beauty is not a cultural fetish then?

We have evolved. Biological Attraction is rooted in this.

Virgil

06-13-2007, 11:13 AM

but money doesn't really have to do with appearance, does it? even if some women prefer rich men, their money does not make these men look any better.
..on the other hand, maybe those women convince themselves that an ugly rich guy doesn't look that bad at all... like the tell themselves a lie until they believe it ?? is that what you meant?

I didn't say money have to do something with appearance but it surely makes attractivity. That's why i separated sexual attractivity and other kinds of attraction. Plus there's a psychological effect, that you pointed on your last paragraph. It doesn't work always, but sometimes money even make people look better.

Yeah, I agree with Turk. I think it does. There must be a psychological effect. I am always amazed at how a guy with an expensive fancy car does better with women than one who doesn't. Of course this was when I was younger and I haven't dated anyone (other than my wife) in twenty years.

kathycf

06-13-2007, 11:22 AM

There may be some idea that some women MAY subconsciously look for someone who will be able to provide well for any future offspring. Some of this goes into a bias that all women are money grubbing gold diggers. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in there. But again...these sorts of things don't apply to everybody.

Turk

06-13-2007, 11:26 AM

We have evolved. Biological Attraction is rooted in this.

This is not an answer to my question though i will assume it is.

I don't believe in evolution. I assume you believe it, then i would like to remind you people are not more evolved than a man who lived 10.000 years ago according to evolution theory. Plus an European is not more evolved than an African or Asian or other people with other culture or race.

Some of this goes into a bias that all women are money grubbing gold diggers.

Nobody tells that. Sometimes i make comments like that in my life though, but completely joke. On the other hand you comment is open to jokes like "all women are subconsciously gold diggers".:lol: ;)

kathycf

06-13-2007, 11:34 AM

Nobody tells that. Sometimes i make comments like that in my life though, but completely joke. On the other hand you comment is open to jokes like "all women are subconsciously gold diggers".:lol: ;)

Someone did post they thought most women were high priced whores. It is on previous page of this thread. No offense meant to her, but she did post it.

I didn't say anybody here was going around saying "money grubbing gold diggers" but simply that the notion is a stereotype some people hold... at least around in the US they do.

Note my use of "some" and "may"...Never said all. At least not in my subconscious part about looking for a mate to care for offspring. ;)

Golly, you men folks! Can't live with you, can't whack you over the head! :D :D :D :D :p :p :p :p :p

Turk

06-13-2007, 11:36 AM

Hehe, a Turkish poet said "with or without you" around 120 years ago. :)

Countess

06-13-2007, 12:00 PM

Someone did post they thought most women were high priced whores. It is on previous page of this thread. No offense meant to her, but she did post it.

I said "in general", not "most". There's a difference.

I should take my supervisor's advice and shut up. Now I don't talk when I go out of my house, and I've been thinking I'll cancel all my online accounts and complete disappear in my shell. If I go silent, it means I've gone inside myself forever.

kathycf

06-13-2007, 12:05 PM

I said "in general", not "most". There's a difference.

I should take my supervisor's advice and shut up. Now I don't talk when I go out of my house, and I've been thinking I'll cancel all my online accounts and complete disappear in my shell. If I go silent, it means I've gone inside myself forever.

I never said you should shut up. It wasn't a slam against you...and now I feel exactly the same way. Welp, see you folks around.

Lote-Tree

06-13-2007, 12:29 PM

I don't believe in evolution.

No problema. I am not interested in beliefs. But only in verifiable truths.

I assume you believe it, then i would like to remind you people are not more evolved than a man who lived 10.000 years ago according to evolution theory.

10,000 year old human is more evolved that one lived 100,000 years ago ;-)

But we are going off topic. So we shall stop there.

Logos

06-13-2007, 05:34 PM

Uhm, closed. I might clean this up and re-open.