Reversing vandalism

[Isagel]

Hello again - just stopping by to share this,

a slide-show essay about how the San Francisco Public Library converted a vandal's crime into art. You will find it at:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2098846

A man destroyed books by cutting them. The library invited artists to turn the destruction into new works of art.

Art vs violence ? 1- 0!

[Shea]

There was an art display of big posters advocating unity and peace at a museum not far from my house a few months ago. It was an outdoor display, and one night vandals came and slashed the posters, I suppose as a biggoted protest. The people responsible for the traveling art display were considering not reparing them, sort of using it as a symbol of the awfullness of biggotry and how it destroys beautiful things.

You vandals do your deeds in vain!!:D

[emily655321]

This is absolutely true, it happened to one of the professors of my mother's and my friend. Anyway, this real artsy artist professor took to going around and making miniatures of buildings he saw. I guess maybe like, 4-foot-tall or something. He made one of a mausoleum he saw whose doors a vandal had spray-painted S*** across in big letters. So he made a big model of this thing, spray-painted the profanity across its doors, and entered it in an art show. He thought it was absolutely genius and symbolic and all that.

Well, overnight the janitor came through. And he, being uncultured and obviously not understanding the genius of a fake mausoleum with the word "S***" scrawled across it, thought how terrible that someone had vandalized the artwork. So he got out special chemicals and happily set to work, spending considerable time carefully rubbing off the graffiti. LoL.

P.S. I don't know what happened to the poor janitor, but I would have loved to see the face of the artist.

[fayefaye]

I like stebbins' untitled. What do you think of the political statement involved?

Don't you think censoring still occurs in art, despite the whole 'art shouldn't be censored' thing? [think this is an interesting topic of conversation, like to get a discussion going]

[IWilKikU]

Where do you see censoring in art specifically?

[random_hero]

I see it in movies and in media of all kinds, but society is really the censorer in this case, as explicit images, themes etc arent as lucrative. In museums, some film festivals, and online there is close to full freedom, save for anything that is opposed to homosexuality...

[emily655321]

*can't help noting that this is the second time today hero has made an ambiguous reference to homosexuality* Am I missing something? Oops, on second thought, I'm not going there.

[random_hero]

Okay, I have issues on the homosexuality issue... I had a heated argument on an ONLINE DANCE GAME WEBSITE CHAT ROOM of all places about homosexuality and the bible. It was completely absurd. Ha, but I think it is unfair that because my political and social views are offensive to a small but politically active group they(my opinions/views/ART) are censored. Or discredited.

[emily655321]

Okay, I think I'll just leave it at that, then. :D

Well, anyway, a thought or two on censorship...

Censorship of art and ideas, in my opinion, has been far more successful than the highly publicized "censorship" of violence and sex in the media. You still see people getting killed and lewd sex and stuff, only with little bits of it blurred out.

But when it comes to art, it seems, they can just say, "No, you can't say that at all." I'm having trouble thinking of a specific example, because that's just it -- unless you're a part of the "underground scene," or know the artist, it's hard to even know something exists if it's been blacklisted by someone in power.

I think the most powerful and dangerous form of censorship, in America anyway, is the whole MTV approach to mass marketing of music and movies. (Whoo! alliteration, baby.) The businessmen behind the big desks decide what will be seen and heard, and the medium is swamped by money-making corporate advertisements otherwise known as Pop Stars and Blockbuster movies. Individual artists with only a vision and their own elbow grease don't stand a chance of being heard. I think that's the most dangerous type of censorship: making artists unable to even have their voices heard in the first place.

[edit] I think the internet is really helping with that though. Especially when it comes to connecting with the few other members of a particular group (whether it be political, social, artistic, etc.). Personally, I feel the impact most strongly in the proliference of streaming online radio. Here I am, a teenager living at home in a small rural town, and I can click an icon and hear independent music that is coming out of the Montreal club scene. It's a real liberation, but it also works the other way around. I personally fear that when all corners are visible and accessible to the kid next door, where does it breed? Art needs its dark clubs and unknown coffee houses, but what happens when they're all accessible via a link on mtv.com? I'm exaggerating, of course, but it does give me pause to wonder how the art world will be affected by such developments.

[IWilKikU]

Fear not Emily, I don't think that the internet or MTV or anything will ever have the power to destroy the underground scene. There are a LOT of artists who prefer to stay underground rather than becoming pop celebs. These artists will stay in the dark clubs and unknown coffee houses that they prefer. When the unknown coffee houses get bought out by Starbucks, the artists will move on and find another way to share thier art with an audience limited to the people who know how to find them.

[emily655321]

That's true, Kik, I agree. I'm just still pissed about Modest Mouse being on MTV. *scowls* :p :p

[random_hero]

I am definetly pissed about that, but hey, more people like them now= more sales= more money to make more albums. Even though it isnt that great for the fans I have realized that selling out, or psuedo-selling out is best for the artists, and they deserve to be noticed. But it hurts as a fan to see your favorite band on trl. HIM is an amazing band that band discovered and they are blowing up now. Which is cool.
But I would rather feel superior and be the only one who knows than to see 50,000 12 year olds with heartagram hats. Thats their logo, but that crap went mainstream.
With the internet, however, their are unlimited venues for artists to showcase their work. Publishers can print books with whatever they want, its TV and Hollywood and clearchannel and the FCC that ruined artistic liscense and squelched creativity. Art is still as honest, real, and explicit as ever before, but the general public feels more comfortable with conservative peices and arists. Its easier that way.

[Koa]

Talking of music business I heard that the Spanish government [how I love that man...2 wise decisions in less than 2 months- I wonder where's the downside...] decided to lower the taxes on cds and books, so they'll cost less and it can discourage the illegal market. I'm so happy I want to cry...Did it take so long to realise that cds and books are way too expensive? For me they're as necessary as the air I breathe, not luxury... Now I only have to go to Spain every time I like a cd :eek:

Talking of censorship well... Last week my favourite tv show was shorter than usual cos they weren't allowed to show politc satire... No comment on where we're heading to (just because politics are not allowed here and I agree with that).

Anyway...I don't have much to add about what you're saying here...I agree about the horrible mainstream approach, I hope the underground scene will be prosper...And it does hurt to see your favourite band get too popular...

Though I'm not sure it's the public who wants it that way, as randmo_hero seems to have said (unless I misunderstood). It's because they've been brainwashed... They think that's all there is, cos they don't look beyond their nose... and if they happen to, they're too scared of being different so just keep loving the mainstream crap the Big Brother decides to show. I myself didn't know what good music was until I started 'researching' by myself and follow my taste... But before I only knew what I saw on mtv (which anyway wasnt as bad as nowadays, I guess), and if someone is not interested in going further, they'll grow up (I'm thinking of poor kids) thinking that all you need to have a great life is moan like a sick cat whil you dance half-naked in allusive ways... It makes me cry when I think of it...

[random_hero]

Well, I never specified why people want what they do, but you are exactly right. People, for the most part, are sheep by nature, they like to follow, and in times of chaos will inadvertantly elect a leader of some sort. Its just a human thing to do. BUT since the industrial age people have become machines, living in the three boxes and living by the whistle. The system schools are based on have caused alot of this, as the standardization and such encourages children to think the same, and uniforms encourage children to look the same.
The bell schedules so many in school live by were originally to get children used to factory conditions, living by the whistle, and conformity now runs rampant in the more developed nations. MTv tried for a long time to not do this, but rap and capitalism took over. Now when I think about the future, silver spandex unforms for all humans and soma dont seem too outlandish.
Unless censorship in mass media goes down. Which would mean that the governments of the world would give up, and all hell would break loose.
I guess what I am trying to say that this cynic is not very excited about the future, and the trends in media and society are really going to be the causes of a nazi-like culture.

OK, that was too much. Tell me if I should delete that, I dont think I made sense and it was really long.

[amuse]

"'rap' and capitalism"? mtv was ok before those two?? there are some wonderful rap artists.

also, if you're going to delete something, why don't you self-edit if you think it reads/sounds better rather than looking for (dis)approval. it's a good way to help you develop your "voice."

unless you want your stuff deleted and sold to mtv with some samples on the track. ;)

[emily655321]

Originally posted by Koa
Talking of music business I heard that the Spanish government [how I love that man...2 wise decisions in less than 2 months- I wonder where's the downside...] decided to lower the taxes on cds and books, so they'll cost less and it can discourage the illegal market. I'm so happy I want to cry...Did it take so long to realise that cds and books are way too expensive? For me they're as necessary as the air I breathe, not luxury... Now I only have to go to Spain every time I like a cd :eek:

No fair, Koa! That's awesome. I definitely agree, books and CD's are two of the cheapest kinds of things to produce, and yet I have to budget whether I buy this one or that this week, and will I get tired of this one before I can buy another? It's dumb. Especially since authors and musicians, except for the superstars you hear about everywhere, make almost no money from it. Over half of the profit ends up going to the wealthy publishers and producers.

[random_hero]

I didnt really feel like reading that over, and if none of that made sense I would delete it. I think approval is important, but making sense is much more so. I have always had a strong voice, or so my AP English teachers have told me. But staying up until 3 and then typing on a sunday morning is not the best environment for me. And there are some good rappers, but LilJon and the eastside boys? My Milkshake brings all the boys to the yard? Move *****, get out da way? Not good rap.

[emily655321]

I have to admit, I don't think I'll ever personally understand the appeal of rap, but I can identify significant differences in style. There's like gangster rap, which has guns in the videos. And pimp rap, which has naked women in the videos. And there's stuff that I would refer to as "good," even though I don't listen to it, because it clearly focuses attention on being artistic in rhythm and poetic lyrics. Just Jack is the only group I can think of offhand.

[IWilKikU]

There is some really good rap and some really bad rap. Just like rock. But there are even some good popular rappers these days. I really like Eminem (I know, I know, but damn, have you listened to his rhyme schemes? There unreal!) and Outkast, to name a few, and really hate Ja Rule and 50 cent. Eew.

[emily655321]

Ah, I think I know why you're in such a good mood, Kik. Your spelling is horrendous today. You've been communing with the green, haven't you? :D

[IWilKikU]

No such luck my friend. No such luck. Besides, theres no good weed in this weed forsaken country, so even when I do uh... "commune with the green" it just makes me confused and want to go to bed. Boring!!! Good weed is good! It makes you want to run and play and frolic and watch funny movies and listen to crazy muzak, and write stories that don't make sense. This shmack is shmackity shmackle dack! I HAVE drankened about 5 cups o coffee though, cause I gotta stay up and write my FINAL ESSAY OF THE SEMESTER!!!!!!! Oh hells yeah! so I may be a bitty bit silliar that usual. Oh and screw spelling. Spelling is for the week!

(oh, just so you know, I spelled the wrong "week" on purpose, cause I thought it'd be funny. :)). Was It?

[emily655321]

LOL yes, Coffee-High. Especially since you've done it on other occasions without noticing it. :D

[IWilKikU]

Yeah, well.... uh.... "YOU SMELL LIKE BROCOLLI!" :MAD::MAD::MAD:

:D

[IWilKikU]

And now... A ping pong break. See you in a few.

[random_hero]

*...and the booming voice declared...* I say now, at let this proclimation ring in the ears of all who hear me: I seem to be eternally high. I need not smoke marijuana cigarettes, as they may consume my soul, and turn me into an addict, forever focused on the bong rip at the end of the tunnel...

Oh yeah, Just Jack is pretty Good, but what about Hiroglyphics? And even Atmosphere? Eminem is the only "mainstream" rapper I like, so emotionally charged. All the rest is meaningless, and empty, and vain. I think it is because Em is more hip hop, where as rap is the gangster/pimp thing. Hip hop is the art form, rap is the money maker.

What would Streets (or The Streets) be considered, spoken word? The new song is awesome.

Wow, I should really try to limit the length of my responses...

[amuse]

odd that you would cite eminem as a rapper, then say he doesn't make rap music.

well at any rate, here you are back to rap bashing.
not all of it is gangster/pimp stuff. a good deal yes. all, no. and there is art in its music, rhythms, lyrics.
some things don't need to be defended and i wish i hadn't glorified your post with an answer. i'm through with this thread.

[IWilKikU]

Oh come on Az, don't let Mugato chase you away! :D.

Hero, anyone who has never hit the green has ABSOLUTELY NO justification to the claim that they are eternally high. I myself claimed once upon a time that I was high on life and didn't need weed, and in really, no one NEEDS weed, its just alot of fun.

[amuse]

i just get sick of rap bashing. i read a thread from before i got here, and a comment on bubble-headed muscly rappers (which really struck a nerve, as my darling ex-football-playing boyfriend with a degree is a lot smarter than me) a while back, and here again; it pisses me off. most people don't listen to a lot of it, even i don't but my bf dj's so i'm pretty exposed (ok that sounds wrong) and this genre keeps on getting bullied, i remember when rap was born, and it has a history, rantrantrant.

[amuse]

continued
oh yeah, he also spends a lot of time in the studio.

[verybaddmom]

oh amuse, i totally understand where you are coming from. it seems that there are some artists(?) out there who tend to almost try and create a reputation for rap artists that is less than favorable. it is sort of the same phenomenon that happens to teenagers where i live. there are some teenagers that are disrespectful, lazy and downright rude. the problem is that there are many more that are not, but it seems that they all get painted with the same brush. anytime something goes wrong in my town the immediate assumption is "those damn kids" and while they may sometimes be at fault, that automatic assumption is not necessarily fair. i have seen drunk adults do as much damage as the intentional vandalism done by kids, and there are many innocent kids that are discriminated against here in town because of the others. its unfortunate that there are only so many teens allowed into a store because of the few that steal, etc. it appears to me that the same thing happens with rap artists. you have a few that use abusive language and sensationalize violence, and of course that is what the general public gets to hear about. the performers that have talent and use that to create their art are neglected and again, painted with the same brush as the others...


i seem to be having trouble articulating exactly what it is i want to, but i hope you get the idea.
also, i would like to make it clear that i am neither a teenager, nor a rap fan....i just think everyone has the right to be judged on their own merit, not the others that share the same age, genre etc.

[random_hero]

Actually, studies have shown that the brain of a pothead on marijuana is STRIKINGLY similar to a normal, sober person. After the weed wears off, and this is the case every time, the brain resembles someone with a bad case of depression. So I am right, in a really crappy way. And yes, the whole rap thing above was stupid, but at this point rap is very hard to defend... And after Chis rock I realized I was not the only person who thought this. Old school rap is a different story. But for the most part there really isnt a whole lot you can say in rap's defense. I guess this will piss people off, but hey, it is catchy, and "fun" to listen to, but look a little deeper at the meaning and maybe you might be able to understand where I am coming from.

[verybaddmom]

pardon me for interjecting here but i would like to see the studies that claim that a brain fresh from a marijuana high: "resembles someone with a bad case of depression". I have personally been a regular pot smoker for more than ten years now, and have never had troubles with depression. i assume that a brain that resembles a depressed brain would have neurotransmitter imbalances similar to that triggering depression, and i would thus assume that symptoms would be exhibited. I beg to differ. I am from BC, Canada, which has a worldwide reputation for having a) the best pot and b) the most dedicated pot smokers. we do not suffer from excessive depression (or stupidity). i would really like to see this study that claims depression follows a high.

[simon]

Yeah BC pot.

[verybaddmom]

:D

[amuse]

i could say a lot in rap's defense, but what's the use. you'll bash it some more and who needs to read that. suit yourself. you dislike it. big deal.

[verybaddmom]

we (by we i mean the rest of us) want to hear what you have to say amuse. im not a fan, but i would like to learn about things that i may have missed. my only exposure to rap music has been on MuchMusic (Canada's MTVish channel) and the crud you hear in the media about the (mis)behavior of some of the artists.
Enlighten me :)

[amuse]

i remember waaay back in the day: The Fat Boys, Afrika Bambaataa, Whodini, songs like "jamonee." My brother break danced to "Beat Street's" music when he was 12 - now 15 years later people do it again, and he was embarrassed for years that he'd ever done that. Naz has some pretty thought provoking lyrics. i especially like (insert paraphrase) his question is the earth really two-thirds water? and goes on to point out that there's stuff taking up volume in the water, and its depth, etc. that was from an album in the mid to late nineties. LL (Cool J) is one of the originals from back in the day. so is wil smith. there are things that rappers can do as far as beat, rhythm, diction that i would never be able to do if i practiced speech and diction every day for the rest of my life. and as easy as it may be to memorize a song, i've yet to memorize a rap, yet i see my bf for example doing so and not missing a word when the music's on. it sounds almost like running up and down hills i think when it's fast-paced and your tongue curls just listening.
so we have queen latifah, and lauren hill, and oh her name has an "m" i forget but really important. "U-N-I-T-Y" is a great answer to the flagrant use of "B" by some rappers.
i think it's also important to remember where it originated: the ghetto. this is an outlet for some very talented freestylists - jay z for example doesn't remember everything on "The Black Album" because he freestyled. I can't rhyme to begin with, and for someone to do that off the cuff to a beat and make sense, and commentary blows my mind. this is an outlet for a bunch of things, whether ghetto life, "yellow panties" ('87 i think, really cool song with great drums); it's cry as well. try being a suppressed people with little opportunity except the pen, a turntable, your friends, and-
i look at dr. sonia sanchez - poet and former english prof & advisor at temple (she's the original reason i wanted to go there, i used to wait on her at the health food deli in town) and the poem she wrote and recited at tupak's funeral.
this is the language of urban youth. it's that simple. language evolves, rap has evolved. it may have references from rough stuff like nwa, funny stuff and again, thought provoking from the digital underground, crude stuff from people like 50, Lil Jon and the East Side Boyz and wild weird non-rap rap from prince, but it is important. rap cd's have just as much archival significance as any other musical genre.
i like opera, classical, 70's rock, 60's rock, philly soul from the 50's, r and b, and hip hop. jimi, stevie nicks, r kelly - those guys define my musical world. i also like rap.
rap defines the musical world of many.
i wish i could put this better.

[verybaddmom]

thanks amuse, you put that well, i believe. at the very least you have given me some artists to look for. and you are right about the memorizing a song thing. when songs that i have not heard for years come on the radio, i can still sing along but I have heard quite a bit of eminem and have never been able to sing along, but to the most basic of his lyrics. i never really thought about it before, but the memorization and delivery would be quite difficult and require some measure of linguistic talent. very good point

[IWilKikU]

Also Hero, anyone who says "I don't like rap, just Eminem" obviously doesn't know hardly anything about rap. Eminem is my favorite rapper, but think about it, where did his inspiration come from? Who else drew inspiration from these sources? Check those guys out and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

And I just came off my first high in about 2 months and I feel GREAT!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[amuse]

forgot to mention Run DMC and Sugar Hill Gang with the originals.
also, the sampling that a lot of artists do speaks to their breadth of musical knowledge.

[Koa]

I'm sorry to have to contradict amuse, but...why does rap need a defense? It's all I can see on bloody MTV, and it feels like dictatorship...I don't like it except some occasional songs, personally in 99,9% of cases I can't understand a word of it (and I don't think kids can here since their average level of English is 'I am, you are, he...what???'), so it's just a pushed fashion at the moment... I'm sure it has roots and whatever else, but if I'd like 'true' rap I'd be worried about what's happening to it now...I hate it when things are too famous... A few years ago it was boybands, now it's rappers...

And wow, is pot so popular? I've seen many people online talk of it like it was drinking a glass of fresh water...I mean, a totally normal thing... I'm totally out of the world since I don't have many friends, but I haven't seen much of it in my life....I know it's popular especially in some groups, but I only had the chance to try once or twice... Not that I mind, I'm naturally high both on good and bad sides ;) Though a guy I know says he's smoked quite a lot for some time, and I wonder if that's why his memory fails so much that he asks me the same thing twice in 5 minutes....;) or maybe it was just natural of him ;)

[amuse]

this pains me to write, but my bf says i'm the only person he knows who doesn't smoke pot. well, not true, there are his parents! but like on the morning radio the other day, some woman called in, said how she'd just lit up and was headed to work where she directs people to substance abuse programs. :confused: so common here in philly and well, in california you'd have a hard time not finding it. :rolleyes: case in point, my grandmother taught 4th grade in mendocino country (beautiful coastline, also part of the "emerald triangle") and didn't ask children what their parents did for a living, :eek: and my brother was out doing watershed field work, and had to turn around after encountering people-high pot plants. his coworkers wanted to keep going, but he! knew better.
don't know about the rest of the states.

hmm. i don't watch mtv much...if i did it would probably annoy me, :D i like mellow, pretty music, well except for "Live" and jimi. *see room 101, will post there shortly.* i guess i don't like to see it bashed, in the same way that if a plant or baby starts out life well and then shows awful ugly leaves, i feel that maybe it's the extra stuff that's tainted, not the roots. and some of it is pretty good. though most of what people hear is overkill and from pretty people who often don't impress me personally.
i guess it's just, there really are a lot of good artists. they just don't get as much airplay, and most of them are more hardcore. and i was defending it because like i said, i get sick of seeing it thrown down like a guitar on fire.
:)!

[emily655321]

I've never tried pot, believe it or not. (Woohoo! rhyming) I don't have any moral opposition to drugs -- not soft drugs, anyway, -- but it's the smoking part I just won't do. I hate smoke, hate being in a room with smoke of any kind, and am even less inclined to inhale it voluntarily. And my friends are all cheap cheap cheap, so no one's willing to use up extra and make special brownies for Em. :D

I'm wary, though, because I have an extremely addictive personality. I can become addicted to any behavior, such as... this forum! :D But especially certain types of food, for example. My mother is in a perpetual cycle of coffee-addiction/coffee-cold turkey, and there's a history of alcoholism in the family tree. (I decided years ago never to drink. Not a big temptation when you don't know what your missing, I figure.) But anyway, it is a concern of mine that I'm at extreme risk of becoming a drug addict, even if all I plan to do is try pot -- especially with being depressed.

I don't know how proliferant pot is around my area. It isn't a visible custom or anything, unless you know people who do it. But I'd say maybe a little over half my friends do, and one or two adults that I know of. No doubt I'll see a lot more when I get up to Marlboro.

[IWilKikU]

Emily I respect you and pity you at the same time. :D. Its true though, that if your not missing out if you don't know what you're missing out on. But roasting a phatty and watching a stupid movie is, bar none, my favorite thing to do with my friends. NOTHING beats it. But if you don't have fun people to do it with, or if you're not fun, you aren't missing anything. My roomate last semester was about the boringest damn person to smoke up with. He would just go to sleep right afterwords, and I would be stuck in my dark room, high, and bored out of my mind. That sucked.

[emily655321]

Some of my friends have some very bizarre reactions to it. Or maybe they just buy bad weed. LoL But one guy goes far from mellow, much goofy, and once descended on me and pulled my hand closer to the light so he could stare at my jewelry shining. Unfortunately for me, the light was a table of candles. :eek: The strobe also happened to be on, which only further confused the rest of my freshly-deeply-stoned friends in their efforts to pull him off. Very interesting night, that was. :D He didn't remember a thing.

[IWilKikU]

Hehe. Sounds about right.

[Koa]

Originally posted by emily655321
I've never tried pot, believe it or not. (Woohoo! rhyming) I don't have any moral opposition to drugs -- not soft drugs, anyway, -- but it's the smoking part I just won't do. I hate smoke, hate being in a room with smoke of any kind, and am even less inclined to inhale it voluntarily. And my friends are all cheap cheap cheap, so no one's willing to use up extra and make special brownies for Em. :D
.

I agree...I mean, I don't like the smoke part too... Well, I'm totally unable to smoke, I end up just coughing and looking stupid...So in some cases I wouldnt even try, unless I'm with people I know won't make fun of me...

That links it to what Kik said about being in the right company... When I was 14-15 the people I used to go out with went a few times to a field with alchol to hide and get drunk. I never did, not because I had anything against it, but because I wasn't feeling free with them, and I was afraid to be made fun of for some reason... Infact when I got drunk for the first time, it was with people I felt wonderfully with, my real friends.

[emily655321]

I know! I'm so prideful. As goofy as I usually am, I'd be terrified of losing my inhibitions around other people, no matter who. I'm a control freak.

[Koa]

Indeed...my self control is spooky.
Last time I got drunk it was with the boy I liked...a normal girl would have jumped on him, I was just hoping to loosen myself up and tell him... Instead I just pretened I was sober :D (you can't tell the difference cos I'm mad anyway :D))

[emily655321]

LMAO :D

My poor friend sent me an email Sunday saying she was at a party with the boy she liked, and with whom she's said for months she feels this really strong chemistry. He got drunk and kissed her three times. She said, "you know, it was just the sort of thing where he was drunk and felt like kissing people." So she just laughed it off. :(

[Koa]

stupid as it is, that'd be a goal to me... noone has ever been so drunk to do that to me, I guess the next step would be death for excess of alcohol! :D