racism; why exactly is it there??? [Archive]

quasimodo1

06-01-2007, 02:37 PM

To ulvmane: Getting a strong feeling, members and guests alike will avoid this issue like the plague. Personally, I'm not intimidated by it. First let me say I will no longer apologize for my ancestors and their real or learned racism. I always felt a vague sense of guilt and unease when any untoward remarks were made at the family home, especially if around the dinner table. The "N" word was used and it bothered me and at the same time, I felt there was some sort of subconscious conditioning going on and this was one learned behavior I wanted no part of. My father was the last in this line of Lithuanians who "felt" obliged to speak this way and try to convince us children that to do so was the way of the world. Somewhere, somehow, we knew it was not. One particular inconsistancy occured when my father had to address or deal with black customers. He treated them better than white customers; whether this was a result of his mercenary sense or just his true self, I can only guess. Nevertheless, I never heard a harsh word from him directed at black people or other minorities, at least in the business world, ever. At home, a different story. My reaction to all this is that learned behavior can be destructive and extemely mean spirited; this doesn't mean you have to feel responsible for it, unless you go along. Now I hear of what some call institutionalized anti-racism where blacks or other minorities take advantage of this negative history for the purpose of playing off white guilt; where the whites may be responsible by reason of acquiecance or not. In these scenarios, the people who are the sons, grand-daughters, uncles or true victims of racist events or attacks, treat all non-minorities like they are necessarily part of the problem. This just replaces one vice with another. We may stand on our ancestor's shoulders but maybe we didn't take part in the negative feelings or actions. I'd be willing to run this one past M.L.King for his opinion and I think he would judge you perhaps, as part of the problem, neutral (if that is possible) or part of the solution. quasimodo1

andave_ya

06-01-2007, 03:42 PM

People like to be domineering. If someone feels he is above a person and leaves that feeling to grow will lead to racism.

Turk

06-01-2007, 04:08 PM

Arrogance. Hate. Feeling unsafe and unsure of oneself. Being unable to criticize oneself.

SleepyWitch

06-01-2007, 05:59 PM

Feeling unsafe and unsure of oneself.

that's a very good answer, Turk:thumbs_up
i think there's a lot of truth in this, because people who feel unsure of themselves need someone they can look down on so they can feel "higher up"/ superior themselves.
as long as only one race is involved those who are lower down on the social ladder are left out of the game. they will be the ones their powerful and rich countrymen or people of the same "race" look down on. so this "race" is divided withing it itself and they'd go at each others throat sooner or later if it wasn't for a common enemy whom they can all look down on.
even the poorest, most stupid, "trailer-camp white trash" person can feel superior to members of other "races" because this kind of hierarchy is not based on riches or achievement but solely on what colour your skin is.

...I don't know about children, but maybe one of the reasons they are not racist is that very young children don't have all the identity issues adolescents and grown-ups have... i mean they are hardly aware of the differences between themselves and the outside world and don't really develop an I until the age of 3...
so they don't really have what we would call an identity and thus there's no need for them to keep redefining, defending and comparing their identy... :confused:

stlukesguild

06-01-2007, 07:10 PM

Turk

06-01-2007, 07:24 PM

Shalot

06-01-2007, 08:46 PM

Yeah, that's possible. Since racism is an ill, and children can get that ill from their parents.

I would also like to say Darwinism and Materialism are two of most important sources of modern racism.

I took a class about racism and we started out with a definition of capitalism -- does capitalism = materialism?

Does capitalism promote competition and therefore result in better goods and services for all of humankind (or at least for those that can pay for the goods and services -- the rest of us can read/hear about the new technologies etc)

SleepyWitch

06-02-2007, 06:16 AM

dramasnot6

06-07-2007, 07:43 AM

I agree that this is a very loaded question, but if i had to ultra-condense my answers-
Fear and ignorance.

Turk

06-07-2007, 11:34 AM

I agree that this is a very loaded question, but if i had to ultra-condense my answers-
Fear and ignorance.

I am not so sure about the ignorance part. Germans was the one of the most educated and well cultured nations of Europe when before Hitler and at the time of Hitler.

Mortis Anarchy

06-17-2007, 09:33 PM

I never really experienced racism until probably the immigration 'problem' in the united states abrupted. I'm of Mexican origin...and proud of it!...so I got a lot of slurs and very cruel things to me said. Even by some of my teachers, they said that they were just joking, but still.

I am not so sure about the ignorance part. Germans was the one of the most educated and well cultured nations of Europe when before Hitler and at the time of Hitler.

Well, okay...I'm not in total disagreement with you, but you have to look at the time period for response to it as well. There are some parts of it that totally make me gag because of the lack of concern or thought but other parts are different. I have no response really to pre-Hitler but I have to say that Germany was really, really in the gutter at the time. Hitler took the opportunity and just brainwashed everyones mind. Again, there are somethings that are absurd, but I don't think we can lay it all on Germany. I think racism is a mixture or hate, ignorance, arrogance and fear...mixed in with the time periods as well. Again, I'm not justifying anyones actions.

Yeah, that's possible. Since racism is an ill, and children can get that ill from their parents.

I would also like to say Darwinism and Materialism are two of most important sources of modern racism.

I'm not sure what you mean by Darwinism and Materialism being a source of racism?

motherhubbard

06-17-2007, 11:44 PM

I have given this thought since I was a little girl. I’m white, but I was in the minority until I was eight and we moved. Now I live in the home town of racism. I can tell you that there is no way to even talk about another possibility to those who are blinded by ignorance and hatred. I had all of this other very interesting stuff typed, but I‘m afraid it‘s not general enough to be postable. I used to work with a boy who is now a leader in the KKK. I have many questions that can’t be answered.

1. How can you be a Christian and hate Jews when Jesus was a Jew- he looked like a Jew, worshiped like a Jew, and ate like a Jew? For that matter how can you be a Christian and hate anyone?

2. If there were only two black people (as black as people come) and they had to populate the whole earth, how long would it take before you had some white people? Pale skin and blue eyes are triple recessive traits. Triple recessive traits are caused by inbreeding. If there were only two white people to populate the earth there would never be any black people. Inbreeding does not cause darkness.

3. What makes people who think they are so much better, so much better? I want someone to name for me the thing about their “kind” that is actually superior.

Really I think that this is a problem that is much greater than race. There are all kinds of discriminations. Some men think they are better than women, some Chinese think they are better than Vietnamese, some rich better than poor, educated better than uneducated, one religion better than all the others…

I’ll never understand.

Mortis Anarchy

06-18-2007, 12:37 AM

You know...I think that this is one of those subjects that no one will ever know the answer to. Some Mexicans discriminate against other Mexicans because of HOW DARK their skin tone is.

On the Jew v.s. Christian- well I don't have an answer for that either. True Jesus was a Jew, but he did create Christianity...so that should link the two religions together...but the Jewish religion don't acknowledge Jesus as the son of God. So maybe thats were the whole 'arguement' stems from? I'm just throwing out ideas...also, I think its more of strict religious families/practices that lead to that dislike. I don't think anyone can say every Christian will say the same thing. Not that I'm saying you are or anything...these are tricky subjects!

Stanislaw

06-18-2007, 01:01 AM

yeah, I agree with you StLuke... from a certain age on even children can be racist. but I think they pick it up either from their parents or from other kids who've picked it up from their parents

"I don't think children are born sinful, they're just quick studies" - Hobbes from Calvin and Hobbes :D

I am not so sure about the ignorance part. Germans was the one of the most educated and well cultured nations of Europe when before Hitler and at the time of Hitler.

Well, yes, but...Germany had just finished being stomped on by the French and the allies following WWI, and were in an extreme economic depression. The time was ripe for a revolution, or for someone to steer the crowds. People wanted an easy way out, I would even say, people were praying for a way out. And, at the time anti-semitism was quite a popular thing, throughout all of Europe.

Well, okay...I'm not in total disagreement with you, but you have to look at the time period for response to it as well. There are some parts of it that totally make me gag because of the lack of concern or thought but other parts are different. I have no response really to pre-Hitler but I have to say that Germany was really, really in the gutter at the time. Hitler took the opportunity and just brainwashed everyones mind. Again, there are somethings that are absurd, but I don't think we can lay it all on Germany. I think racism is a mixture or hate, ignorance, arrogance and fear...mixed in with the time periods as well. Again, I'm not justifying anyones actions.

exactly, the situation was perfect. Germany had very little national pride left (and believe me, Germans are a proud people) and were feeling quite low at the end of WWI, basically they were blamed for a war that they did not start but were dragged into due to a series of alliences. So when a funny looking litte corperal with an Iron Cross, said, hey everybody, lets all be proud to be German, and really, we know we were right... people followed him, regardless of what he said had to be done to reclaim German Nationalistic Pride.

Mortis Anarchy

06-18-2007, 01:10 AM

Exactly! Thats what I mean't! Even pre-Hitler, they blamed many Jewish people on the fact that they were wealthy and had many good jobs right after WWI. That doesn't make what happened right, but not all the blame can be put on them, them being the people.

The Atheist

06-18-2007, 04:48 AM

I hate to bust anyone's illusions about the lack of prejudices and racism among children but such simply has no basis in reality. I teach art to children from Kindergarten through 8th grade and I am regularly forced to deal with racial slurs... in spite of the fact that almost all of the children are black. The darker-skinned children call those with lighter skin "white" (and it is most certainly taken as an insult) while the lighter skinned kids will refer to the darker skinned kids as "black", "African", "Nigerian", "coal", etc...

That is learned behaviour. Evidence from co-mingled cultures where racism isn't a part of children's upbringing suggests this never happens until kids are conditioned to respond racially.

I would also like to say Darwinism and Materialism are two of most important sources of modern racism.

Quickly duck in with a silly comment, then back off?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how either of those two have anything at all to do with racism. The bible is responsible for far more racism than Darwin ever could have. There are some insane white nationalist/supremacist groups who will claim spurious Darwinian-sounding evolutionary reasons for their racism, but this is no reflection on Darwin. Anyone's works are open to perversion.

Materialism, on the other hand just entirely escapes me as areason for racism. You may as well claim humanism is a reason for racism, it'd make as much sense.

Exactly! Thats what I mean't! Even pre-Hitler, they blamed many Jewish people on the fact that they were wealthy and had many good jobs right after WWI. That doesn't make what happened right, but not all the blame can be put on them, them being the people.

And a little revisionism with your tea and toast!

It's fascinating how any thread which discussing racism will quickly move from discussing the subject to specific examples of it. The above is one, black on blacker is another. Just a note for the above - that Jews held any sort of privilege by wealth, status or employment after WWI is straight Nazi propaganda. You need to study a little more history - Jews have been persecuted in Europe since they arrived there. You may like to re-check your thoughts; Germans had been anti-Semitic since Martin Luther's tempests in the 16th century. I have to check, but I think Jews were still prohibited from owning land even after WWI.

To return to the OP, I'm pleased to see that there have been some sensible answers. I think the reasons for racism could be summed up very quickly as just another example of the human spirit.

Pretty near all mammals have a "pecking order" from the Alpha male downwards. That heirarchical desire remains hardwired in humans and there are many members of our species whose own inadequacy expresses itself as superiority to someone else. By picking on a whole race of people, the inferior person gains ascendency over a whole people, not just one person. Have a look at any school; the most-vulnerable pupil is always easy to spot - the one who is different. Glasses, handicaps, buck teeth, large ears, kids will always look to establish ascendancy due to physical traits.

The hardest of all physical traits to hide is skin colour. "White" people have had the luxury of running the world for the past couple of thousand years, which has given us a sense of superiority which many people can't break free of, as though our ancestors being a little more technologically-advanced means they were better people - a ridiculous proposition, but one which lingers.

Simple white/black dichotomy ensured that people with black skins were classed as "lower" by whites and accordingly, the myth managed to perpetrate into native populations where the black/blacker mentioned above occurs. This is why Europeans and Americans, as recently as 200 years ago, still captured black Africans as slaves.

Unfortunately, religion must bear the cross of a lot of the origins of racism - from the days when indigenous people were seen as "Satan's imps" or heathens for their irreligious practices. In the days when slaves were captured, it was seen as a moral act thanks to support from the bible.

I doubt that excision of racism will ever occur as it's too well-established as a human construct. Racism, homophobia, xenophobia, jingoism, extreme nationalism. They're all symptoms of the same disease.

Stanislaw

06-18-2007, 06:28 AM

And a little revisionism with your tea and toast!

It's fascinating how any thread which discussing racism will quickly move from discussing the subject to specific examples of it. The above is one, black on blacker is another. Just a note for the above - that Jews held any sort of privilege by wealth, status or employment after WWI is straight Nazi propaganda. You need to study a little more history - Jews have been persecuted in Europe since they arrived there. You may like to re-check your thoughts; Germans had been anti-Semitic since Martin Luther's tempests in the 16th century. I have to check, but I think Jews were still prohibited from owning land even after WWI.

Jews held any sort of privilege by wealth, status or employment after WWI is straight Nazi propaganda

It was not just NAZI propoganda, but was widely accepted across Europe.
Also, onething that seperated the Jews from the non-Jewish, was their sense of community, the Jewish peoples often worked together and "helped out their own", so this bread resentment because it appeared that they were atleast helping eachother but excluding others...and more than just Jewsish people were affected by the NAZI's "final Solution", many groups were targeted including: Homosexuals, Gypsies, Communists, Africans, and people with disabilities.

Turk

06-18-2007, 08:45 AM

Well, yes, but...Germany had just finished being stomped on by the French and the allies following WWI, and were in an extreme economic depression. The time was ripe for a revolution, or for someone to steer the crowds. People wanted an easy way out, I would even say, people were praying for a way out. And, at the time anti-semitism was quite a popular thing, throughout all of Europe.

Well, yes but many countries were having economic depression in same time. Also not just at the time but since hundreds of years anti-semitism was popular throughtout all of Europe. But anyway, i told it to point education or ignorance has nothing to do with racism.
------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how either of those two have anything at all to do with racism. The bible is responsible for far more racism than Darwin ever could have. There are some insane white nationalist/supremacist groups who will claim spurious Darwinian-sounding evolutionary reasons for their racism, but this is no reflection on Darwin. Anyone's works are open to perversion.

Materialism, on the other hand just entirely escapes me as areason for racism. You may as well claim humanism is a reason for racism, it'd make as much sense.

If you research "a little" about the subject you see how Darwinism affected both racism and communism. In fact until late 60's most of Darwinists were believing black people are less developed and in a point between man and monkey. It's easy to see relationship between racism and Darwinism. Also Darwin himself was believing human groups are not equally developed. His ideas brought to Germany and later widely affected Nazism;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel

Also every political movement needs a philosophic background. And one of the most important sources of Nazism was Materialism. In fact things you say about religion and materialism are so silly; first i am Muslim, i've read Bible and i couldn't see anything that support racism. Plus i've never seen a religious racist and for real almost all racists i know are Atheist people.

motherhubbard

06-18-2007, 10:25 AM

The bible is responsible for far more racism than Darwin ever could have. There are some insane white nationalist/supremacist groups who will claim spurious Darwinian-sounding evolutionary reasons for their racism, but this is no reflection on Darwin. Anyone's works are open to perversion.

Neither the Bible or Darwin are responsible for racism. You say that the Bible is responsible for far more racism than Darwin, but then you say that anyone’s work is open to perversion. Neither is responsible. As for the Bible, it states that God is not a respecter of persons and clearly explains that all equal in the eyes of the Lord. It is the way people have twisted and misused scripture to support their own ideas. The KKK boy I spoke of would often use one scripture that had nothing to do with race and twist it to justify his whole belief system. However when held up against numerous other scriptures it would not hold water and (much to my enjoyment) would really make him angry at me for quoting scripture.

Materialism, on the other hand just entirely escapes me as areason for racism. You may as well claim humanism is a reason for racism, it'd make as much sense.

I can see a relation. In George many Cherokee Indians held vast property and farm houses and crops and livestock. Many were well established and wealthy. This galled the gut of many white Americans who were convinced that they were superior to the savage redskins. It’s hard to feel superior to someone who has more holdings than you do when that is your main focus. They moved the Cherokees out of their homes and marched them on the Trail of Tears. They had to leave their buggies, horses, cloths, everything - and white people were standing by to move right in and eat the breakfast that the Cherokee women had just set on the table. Greed can cause all kinds of isms.

The hardest of all physical traits to hide is skin colour. "White" people have had the luxury of running the world for the past couple of thousand years, which has given us a sense of superiority which many people can't break free of, as though our ancestors being a little more technologically-advanced means they were better people - a ridiculous proposition, but one which lingers.

Simple white/black dichotomy ensured that people with black skins were classed as "lower" by whites and accordingly, the myth managed to perpetrate into native populations where the black/blacker mentioned above occurs. This is why Europeans and Americans, as recently as 200 years ago, still captured black Africans as slaves.

I have two things to say about this. First of all I have discovered that this superiority of white over blacks is a lingering idea that holds on because when white people are poor, uneducated, ugly, stupid, and illiterate and on and on they can say to themselves well at least I’m not black. Many people never question the things that have been passed down. I put salt in the water when I boil eggs because my mother did and she did it because her mother did. Neither of them knew why they did it other than their mothers and grandmothers did. It’s because salt water boils faster, but I had to search for an answer. Most people don’t search for an answer.

Secondly, White people were slaves in the beginning of the country as well as blacks. The reason this changed is because when a white person escaped it was more difficult to determine if he was a slave or not. IF they were black you could just assume.

Unfortunately, religion must bear the cross of a lot of the origins of racism - from the days when indigenous people were seen as "Satan's imps" or heathens for their irreligious practices. In the days when slaves were captured, it was seen as a moral act thanks to support from the bible..

You’ve already established that it is individuals that are responsible.

The Atheist

06-18-2007, 10:12 PM

I can see a relation. In George many Cherokee Indians held vast property and farm houses and crops and livestock. Many were well established and wealthy....Greed can cause all kinds of isms.

I was referring to Materialism as an ontology rather than economic materialism - which you're talking about. I agree with you that greed and jealousy are great starting points for all kinds of hatred.

The Atheist

06-18-2007, 10:29 PM

Also Darwin himself was believing human groups are not equally developed. His ideas brought to Germany and later widely affected Nazism

Sorry, but you're miles off track. His ideas were perverted for Nazi purposes. Whether or not Darwin's belief that some races were evolutionarily inferior constitutes racism, I don't know. Within the confines of science at the time, I suggest not.

Also every political movement needs a philosophic background. And one of the most important sources of Nazism was Materialism. In fact things you say about religion and materialism are so silly; first i am Muslim, i've read Bible and i couldn't see anything that support racism. Plus i've never seen a religious racist and for real almost all racists i know are Atheist people.

Crikey, there are so many errors in there I'm not sure where to start, but here goes:

Racism in the bible starts in Genesis with Ham - Noah's son. As motherhubbard pointed out, that is open to interpretation, but the bible contains many instances of slavery and genocide of "lower" people. This is the OT, I'm talking about. I have no argument that christianity as a movement is neither racist nor violent, because it clearly isn't, but the OT most assuredly is and many do use it as a copybook even today. If you're a muslim, you should know exactly what I mean, because there are undeniably muslim sects which have perverted your religion to the stage where adherents believe violence and murder is a divinely-approved option.

Materialism; obviously you also are talking about economic materialism, which is a different subject to the one I was on.

If you've never met a religious racist and all the racists you know are atheists, then I suspect you know very few of either group. You may like to check out Stormfront, a white nationalist forum with a membership of 50,000, each and every one of whom is an avowed racist. Members come from all parts of the world and over 80% of the members are christians. That's 40,000 christian racists all in one place.

On the other hand, I know hundreds of atheists through various networks I'm involved in and very, very few of them are racist.

I gather you're in Turkey? Interesting cultural mix you have there, if so.

Mortis Anarchy

06-18-2007, 10:51 PM

It was not just NAZI propoganda, but was widely accepted across Europe.
Also, onething that seperated the Jews from the non-Jewish, was their sense of community, the Jewish peoples often worked together and "helped out their own", so this bread resentment because it appeared that they were atleast helping eachother but excluding others...and more than just Jewsish people were affected by the NAZI's "final Solution", many groups were targeted including: Homosexuals, Gypsies, Communists, Africans, and people with disabilities.

This is what I mean. I'm wasn't just saying that it popped up out of nowhere, sure anti-semitism played a big role in it, but there was nothing quite like 'the final solution' going on. And it wasn't only Germans that were Anti-semitic. What I was trying to say that it was triggered by Hitlers propaganda and brainwash.

During the Weimar Republic the German Jews held very high offices in the government and they also had equal rights with the other non-Jewish Germans. This was from 1848 to the rise of Nazism with Hitler.

But you are right, they have been persecuted for a very long time, but I don't think you can say that "Germans have been anti-semitic since Martin Luther's tempest in the 16th Century"

The Atheist

06-19-2007, 01:04 AM

But you are right, they have been persecuted for a very long time, but I don't think you can say that "Germans have been anti-semitic since Martin Luther's tempest in the 16th Century"

I'm desperately trying to find a reputable source to confirm that Jews weren't allowed to own land, which would settle the case. I'll post when I find one.

You're right that my comment is a bit generalist - there were certainly non-racist Germans, but when it's enshrined in legislation and religion, I think it's pretty close to the mark. Obviously, the past 60 years don't conform to the previous few hundred!

Turk

06-19-2007, 07:34 PM

I'm desperately trying to find a reputable source to confirm that Jews weren't allowed to own land, which would settle the case. I'll post when I find one.

You're right that my comment is a bit generalist - there were certainly non-racist Germans, but when it's enshrined in legislation and religion, I think it's pretty close to the mark. Obviously, the past 60 years don't conform to the previous few hundred!

Jews had equal rights in Germany before Nazis. But i would also like to say Zionists supported anti-semitism in Europe too. So it wasn't just Hitler's propaganda but also Zionist propaganda.

But i think in much older centuries like 15. 16. there was a real Jewish hunt in Europe. Not just Jewish hunt but for example Spanish also killed or exiled thousands of Muslim when they at last conquered last Andalusian Arabic state. Also they weren't allowed to have lands and in night they had to go back to their homes which is separated from other citizens and surrounded by walls , but it was much before time of Nazis, in fact in 19. and beginning of 20. century some Jews had became some of most effective people of Europe, such as Rotschild family, they were even giving loans to kings.

Sorry, but you're miles off track. His ideas were perverted for Nazi purposes. Whether or not Darwin's belief that some races were evolutionarily inferior constitutes racism, I don't know. Within the confines of science at the time, I suggest not.

Research Darwin's personal letters, he calls some races as underdevloped and less evoluated, even he says Turks are underdevloped and barbarian (it's funny cuz when you look at a Turk he physically has no difference than Europeans).

Racism in the bible starts in Genesis with Ham - Noah's son. As motherhubbard pointed out, that is open to interpretation, but the bible contains many instances of slavery and genocide of "lower" people.

I haven't seen it in Bible. Can you point where? In fact normally Christianity should be peaceful religion as what i've read in New Testament but except few little sects they were never been peaceful.

Materialism; obviously you also are talking about economic materialism, which is a different subject to the one I was on.

Philosophical or economical Materialism. They all going same point. If human is just a creature which consisted from atoms, iron, carbon, hydrogene and oxygene then why should someone care about other people's lives? If you believe in Materialism then you should also believe a man's life has no meaning and a man's death has no meaning too. All in all man's just mix of few elements? Isn't it?

If you've never met a religious racist and all the racists you know are atheists, then I suspect you know very few of either group. You may like to check out Stormfront, a white nationalist forum with a membership of 50,000, each and every one of whom is an avowed racist. Members come from all parts of the world and over 80% of the members are christians. That's 40,000 christian racists all in one place.

On the other hand, I know hundreds of atheists through various networks I'm involved in and very, very few of them are racist.

I live in Turkey. And all religious people i know believes brotherhood of men. And all racist i know (very few people in Turkey) are atheist or lacking knowledge of religion.

For these Christian racist; i don't think a Christian supposed to be racist. If they are racist they can't even be believer. In fact there was no racism in earlier ages of Christianity. Racism mostly came from Roman and later German paganism. Also check this out;

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCmela_Manast%C4%B1r%C4%B1

This is a monastery in Turkey. Black people never lived here, but in wall paintings and fresques Hz.Maria and Hz.Jesus of Nazareth showed black colored.

I gather you're in Turkey? Interesting cultural mix you have there, if so.

Yes. Turkey is the beginning place of man settlement. Also from antic Greeks, Romans, Hitits and Sumerians to Ottoman and Seljuk Empires it's been the center of many cultures. Best cultural heritage we have is tolerance i suppose.

The Atheist

06-19-2007, 09:54 PM

Turk.

I've just written a lengthy reply to your post. Twice in fact, because there's a storm here today and the power keeps getting cut off! :lol:

Never usually happens, so I'll come back later and have a third attempt...

Stanislaw

06-19-2007, 10:24 PM

Mortis Anarchy

06-20-2007, 12:01 AM

Jews had equal rights in Germany before Nazis. But i would also like to say Zionists supported anti-semitism in Europe too. So it wasn't just Hitler's propaganda but also Zionist propaganda.

But i think in much older centuries like 15. 16. there was a real Jewish hunt in Europe. Not just Jewish hunt but for example Spanish also killed or exiled thousands of Muslim when they at last conquered last Andalusian Arabic state. Also they weren't allowed to have lands and in night they had to go back to their homes which is separated from other citizens and surrounded by walls , but it was much before time of Nazis, in fact in 19. and beginning of 20. century some Jews had became some of most effective people of Europe, such as Rotschild family, they were even giving loans to kings.

I haven't seen it in Bible. Can you point where? In fact normally Christianity should be peaceful religion as what i've read in New Testament but except few little sects they were never been peaceful.

Philosophical or economical Materialism. They all going same point. If human is just a creature which consisted from atoms, iron, carbon, hydrogene and oxygene then why should someone care about other people's lives? If you believe in Materialism then you should also believe a man's life has no meaning and a man's death has no meaning too. All in all man's just mix of few elements? Isn't it?

I live in Turkey. And all religious people i know believes brotherhood of men. And all racist i know (very few people in Turkey) are atheist or lacking knowledge of religion.

For these Christian racist; i don't think a Christian supposed to be racist. If they are racist they can't even be believer. In fact there was no racism in earlier ages of Christianity. Racism mostly came from Roman and later German paganism. Also check this out;

http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCmela_Manast%C4%B1r%C4%B1

This is a monastery in Turkey. Black people never lived here, but in wall paintings and fresques Hz.Maria and Hz.Jesus of Nazareth showed black colored.

Yes. Turkey is the beginning place of man settlement. Also from antic Greeks, Romans, Hitits and Sumerians to Ottoman and Seljuk Empires it's been the center of many cultures. Best cultural heritage we have is tolerance i suppose.

You've hit my point directly. There have been hunts on various religions and races at all points in time. Even within the same race. I dunno if I've already stated this, but some Mexicans look down on others because of Education, darkness of skin, and money. To tell you my honest thought, I really don't know where it stems from. If you look back in history, it just comes from everywhere! I do believe, and maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I believe that for the most part people have gotten better about racism. Or at least what I have observed in the areas I have lived in. I think events trigger racism to a more physical and verbal way but it is an underlying factor in many peole, even though they do not broadcast it like the Nazi's or the KKK. Events such as 9/11 and immigration laws and the economy/money/land/power are all events that trigger more obvious racism.

I also believe that people learn from example. So children that are exposed to that kind of 'ignorance/hatred' then they learn. Not all cases, but I'm sure there are some. Also another example, children for the most part respect their parents and take on their points of view as their own. I'm just throwing out thoughts, I am not saying that everything i say is correct.

I agree...Germans were edgy with Jews since pre-Charlamagne

This as well is true. Like I said, the Jewish People have been persecuted for a very very long time.

The Atheist

06-20-2007, 12:42 AM

Ok, third time lucky maybe...

But i think in much older centuries like 15.

The point we can all agree on is that anti-Semitism is pretty much as old as Judaism. Fortunately, it appears to be waning.

Research Darwin's personal letters, he calls some races as underdevloped and less evoluated, even he says Turks are underdevloped and barbarian (it's funny cuz when you look at a Turk he physically has no difference than Europeans).

This is what i meant by Darwin being a victim of science of the time. Nowadays, we can compare DNA and state that all races are exactly the same. Based on observation, as Darwin was forced to rely on, he just made a mistake. I seriously doubt Darwin himself was racist, he was just showing his naivety. The trouble is people who hijack his innocent error as some kind of truth.

I haven't seen it in Bible. Can you point where? In fact normally Christianity should be peaceful religion as what i've read in New Testament but except few little sects they were never been peaceful.

Ok. Clearly you need to realise that the bible contains two parts and it isn't a whole book without either part. In the OT, there are numerous mentions of things which can be construed as racist, or twisted to fit other agendas. Specifically, the first mention of it in the bible is in Genesis 9:22-25.

Generally, christianity is a peaceful and non-racist religion, but there are always exceptions...

Philosophical or economical Materialism. They all going same point. If human is just a creature which consisted from atoms, iron, carbon, hydrogene and oxygene then why should someone care about other people's lives? If you believe in Materialism then you should also believe a man's life has no meaning and a man's death has no meaning too. All in all man's just mix of few elements? Isn't it?

No, you've fallen into the theist trap here of thinking that life has to have a god or religion to have meaning. Art, sculpture, music and dance all have meaning in excess of the sum of their atoms, but they are still material effects. Life is the same; there is sufficient wonder, beauty and joy in the physical world that we can take meaning without metaphysics. You should check out some humanist philosophies - some of them are more akin to Buddhism than Materialism.

I live in Turkey. And all religious people i know believes brotherhood of men. And all racist i know (very few people in Turkey) are atheist or lacking knowledge of religion.

I'm not going to discuss politics here, but it is factual that some members of muslim sects have very openly taken racist positions against Israel and Jews in very recent times. Some of these people are senior clerics in muslim sects.

I think that you're kidding yourself if you think all racists are atheists or that muslims aren't racists. The proof is out there every day that racism comes from all sectors of society, religious, non-religious, wherever. You must have seen or heard some of the comments. If not, please check some reputable international news sources and get back to me.

Yes. Turkey is the beginning place of man settlement. Also from antic Greeks, Romans, Hitits and Sumerians to Ottoman and Seljuk Empires it's been the center of many cultures. Best cultural heritage we have is tolerance i suppose.

New Zealand and Turkey share an odd friendship, based as it is on the blood of our ancestors, but it is a strong friendship and many more New Zealanders have been to Turkey than most other countries. I agree that racism isn't apparent there, but it will be there, under the surface somewhere.

Turk

06-20-2007, 09:52 AM

The point we can all agree on is that anti-Semitism is pretty much as old as Judaism. Fortunately, it appears to be waning.

I don't think anti-semitism as old as Judaism. In fact anti-semitism is result of long process after exiles of Jews. Those exiles (one at the time of King Nabukadnezar the second one is at the time of Romans) weren't because anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is very young compared to Judaism.

This is what i meant by Darwin being a victim of science of the time. Nowadays, we can compare DNA and state that all races are exactly the same. Based on observation, as Darwin was forced to rely on, he just made a mistake. I seriously doubt Darwin himself was racist, he was just showing his naivety. The trouble is people who hijack his innocent error as some kind of truth.

There's no excuse for racism. Racism is racism and i've read Darwin's letters which tells "...i can see this kind of inferior races will be eliminated by civilized superior races" about Turks. If you want to defend something till the end, it's even possible to defend Hitler, but truth is clear.

Ok. Clearly you need to realise that the bible contains two parts and it isn't a whole book without either part. In the OT, there are numerous mentions of things which can be construed as racist, or twisted to fit other agendas. Specifically, the first mention of it in the bible is in Genesis 9:22-25.

I haven't read the Old Testament. It's possible old testament contains nationalistic views, because Old Testament changed by Rabbis and Jewish scholars in centuries, and after the exile religion was the only thing that keeps diaspora together. But i've said i haven't seen anything about Racism in the Bible, new testament. We call old testament Torah and new testament Bible. Anyway, i believe these two books both changed by people. I just wanted to say i haven't seen racism in New Testament. So i don't know about old testament.

No, you've fallen into the theist trap here of thinking that life has to have a god or religion to have meaning. Art, sculpture, music and dance all have meaning in excess of the sum of their atoms, but they are still material effects. Life is the same; there is sufficient wonder, beauty and joy in the physical world that we can take meaning without metaphysics. You should check out some humanist philosophies - some of them are more akin to Buddhism than Materialism.

I explained my thought about Materialism. If you think from Materialism point of view then you should confirm there's no meaning in life. Which will eventually take you to a primal Hedonism. Also you say about beauty; ok, when you look at a flower who's perceiving beauty of flower?

Buddhism and Materialism are two completely different things, so don't mix them. My arguments has nothing to do with Buddhism, even though i would like to say Buddhism is completely far from Materialism. Firstly Buddhism is not a Materialist belief and it was widely affected by Brahmanizm, ancient religion of India. {edit}

About Muslims, i am not randomly talking. History says Muslims haven't been racist and there's no genocides in history of İslam.

New Zealand and Turkey share an odd friendship, based as it is on the blood of our ancestors, but it is a strong friendship and many more New Zealanders have been to Turkey than most other countries. I agree that racism isn't apparent there, but it will be there, under the surface somewhere.

Yes. Britain brought your people to Turkey to use 'em in a war which has no relation with New Zealand. I didn't know New Zealanders been to Turkey than most other countries. Hehe... It's a cool country to me; mainly because it's low density population and endless forests. Anyway, unless USA or European states created troubles (Western states, especially Germany and USA supports terrorism in Turkey) and continous propagandas i don't think racism will be apparent ever.

BibliophileTRJ

06-20-2007, 12:30 PM

Fabulous lyrics from a Broadway Play (with a few of my own notes added for clarity)

Avenue Q Lyrics

- Everyone's A Little Bit Racist Lyrics

Princeton (a "human" puppet): Say, Kate, can I ask you a question?

Kate Monster (a "monster" puppet): Sure!

Princeton: Well, you know Trekkie Monster upstairs?

Kate Monster: Uh huh.

Princeton: Well, he's Trekkie Monster, and you're Kate Monster.

Kate Monster: Right.

Princeton: You're both Monsters.

Kate Monster: Yeah.

Princeton: Are you two related?

Kate Monster: What?! Princeton, I'm surprised at you! I find that racist!

Princeton: Oh, well, I'm sorry! I was just asking!

Kate Monster: Well, it's a touchy subject.
No, not all Monsters are related.
What are you trying say, huh?
That we all look the same to you?
Huh, huh, huh?

Princeton: No, no, no, not at all. I'm sorry,
I guess that was a little racist.

Kate Monster: I should say so. You should be much more
careful when you're talking about the
sensitive subject of race.

Princeton: Well, look who's talking!

Kate Monster: What do you mean?

Princeton: What about that special Monster School you told me about?
(Kate dreams of opening a school for her own kind)

Kate Monster: What about it?

Princeton: Could someone like me go there?

Kate Monster: No, we don't want people like you-

Princeton: You see?!
You're a little bit racist.

Kate Monster: Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton: I guess we're both a little bit racist.

Kate Monster: Admitting it is not an easy thing to do...

Princeton: But I guess it's true.

Kate Monster: Between me and you, I think

Both: Everyone's a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn't mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one's really color blind.
Maybe it's a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.

Princeton: Now not big judgments, like who to hire
or who to buy a newspaper from -

Kate Monster: No!

Princeton: No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!

Kate Monster: Right!

Both: Everyone's a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone's a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethinic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They're based on truth.
Don't take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them -
So relax!

Princeton: All right, stop me if you've heard this one.

Kate Monster: Okay!

Princeton: There's a plane going down and there's only
one parachute. And there's a rabbi, a priest...

Kate Monster: And a black guy!

Gary Coleman (a real human portraying the (black) actor from "Diff'rent Strokes): Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Kate?

Kate Monster: Uh...

Gary Coleman: You were telling a black joke!

Princeton: Well, sure, Gary, but lots of people tell black jokes.

Gary Coleman: I don't.

Princeton: Well, of course you don't - you're black!
But I bet you tell Polack jokes, right?

Gary Coleman: Well, sure I do. Those stupid Polacks!

Princeton: Now, don't you think that's a little racist?

Gary Coleman: Well, damn, I guess you're right.

Kate Monster: You're a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman: Well, you're a little bit too.

Princeton: We're all a little bit racist.

Gary Coleman: I think that I would
Have to agree with you.

Princeton/Kate Monster: We're glad you do.

Gary Coleman: It's sad but true!
Everyone's a little bit racist -

All right!

Kate Monster: All right!

Princeton: All right!

Gary Coleman: All right!
Bigotry has never been
Exclusively white

All: If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
Even though we all know
That it's wrong,
Maybe it would help us
Get along.

Princeton: Oh, Christ do I feel good.

Gary Coleman: Now there was a fine upstanding black man!

Princeton: Who?

Gary Coleman: Jesus Christ.

Kate Monster: But, Gary, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman: No, Jesus was black.

Kate Monster: No, Jesus was white.

Gary Coleman: No, I'm pretty sure that Jesus was black-

Princeton: Guys, guys...Jesus was Jewish!
(All burst into laughter)

Brian (a real (white) human) : Hey guys, what are you laughing about?

Gary Coleman: Racism!

Brian: Cool.

Christmas Eve (real human (Japanese with heavy accent) Brian's wife):
BRIAN! Come back here!
You take out lecycuraburs!

Princeton:What's that mean?

Brian:Um, recyclables.
(Laughter from all but Brian & Christmas Eve)
Hey, don't laugh at her!
How many languages do you speak?

Kate Monster: Oh, come off it, Brian!
Everyone's a little bit racist.

Brian: I'm not!

Princeton: Oh no?

Brian: Nope!

How many Oriental wives
Have you got?

Christmas Eve: What? Brian!

Princeton: Brian, buddy, where you been?
The term is Asian-American!

Christmas Eve: I know you are no
Intending to be
But calling me Oriental -
Offensive to me!

Brian: I'm sorry, honey, I love you.

Christmas Eve: And I love you.

Brian: But you're racist, too.

Christmas Eve: Yes, I know.
The Jews have all
The money
And the whites have all
The power.
And I'm always in taxi-cab
With driver who no shower!

Princeton: Me too!

Kate Monster: Me too!

Gary Coleman: I can't even get a taxi!

All: Everyone's a little bit racist
It's true.
But everyone is just about
As racist as you!
If we all could just admit
That we are racist a little bit,
And everyone stopped being
So PC (Politically Correct)
Maybe we could live in -
Harmony!

Christmas Eve: Evlyone's a ritter bit lacist!

I'm sorry if that doesn't add anything to this discussion... I just love it. I think it demonstrates that racism is just a by-product of ignorance, and that if people could realize that the bigot is just an idiot and not get their panties in a twist then the emotionality of the situation might not feed itself and get out of control.

The Atheist

06-20-2007, 05:30 PM

Ok, I'll have one more go at this because we seem to be going in different directions here. Maybe the language is an issue, but I'd like to clarify them if possible.

I don't think anti-semitism as old as Judaism.

My fault there, that was a metaphorical statement. I don't think we can say with any certainty that anti-Semitism started circa..., or that we need to. It's been around for a long time.

There's no excuse for racism. Racism is racism and i've read Darwin's letters which tells "...i can see this kind of inferior races will be eliminated by civilized superior races" about Turks. If you want to defend something till the end, it's even possible to defend Hitler, but truth is clear.

This is actually quite important, because I think you're making two mistakes: One, I'm not defending racism, or even Darwin, and two, I agree with you that there are no excuses for racism.

I just don't see Darwin's comments as racist. I think they were naive and wrong, but the type of mistake that anyone, given the science of the time, could have made. I realise that they are highly offensive to you, but we cannot judge everyone in history by the standards of 2007.

I haven't read the Old Testament.

All I can do is reiterate - and I'm sure that christians will back me on this, since this is the official RCC doctrine:

The Bible made up of both old and new testaments. You can refer to them in whatever terms you choose for your own purposes, but when discussing christianity, you must include both parts.

I explained my thought about Materialism. If you think from Materialism point of view then you should confirm there's no meaning in life.

See, this is a singular opinion. It is your opinion, but it refers to you alone. Because you cannot see any meaning in a Materialist life does not make that true. This is a disappointing statement because it presumes that your personal view is somehow more correct than someone else's.

Which will eventually take you to a primal Hedonism.

Again, this is purely a personal assertion. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it is true. I'm sure there are examples of it, just as there are aberrations of every kind, but it is a fallacy to suggest there's a one-way path in any philosophy.

Also you say about beauty; ok, when you look at a flower who's perceiving beauty of flower?

Hate to tell you, but that supports my case entirely. Subjective. Just as your thoughts are subjective. The difference is, I won't tell you that you're wrong, just that your subjective thoughts may differ from others.

Buddhism and Materialism are two completely different things, so don't mix them.

Actually, if you go back and check, I didn't mix them in any way. I said that some humanists have philosophy similar to Buddhism.

About Muslims, i am not randomly talking. History says Muslims haven't been racist and there's no genocides in history of İslam.

I really don't want to give you a history lesson here, because if I do it will definitely involve getting into politics and that's not allowed. Please take the time to search through some of the statements made by radical islam, worldwide over the past 50 years. I'm no historian, so I'm not going to argue past history with you, but what happened 600 years is hardly relevany anyway.

The past half century is highly relevant and there is no question that many clerics and spokespeople for islam have made racist comments in public, in context.

The reason I'm stressing this is that I agree with you that religion, practised as it "should be", does not include racism. Unfortunately, it often does and I can assure you that no church is going to take much notice of a bloke whose name is The Atheist if I complain about it. If people like yourself make a noise, the churches may listen and I'd like to see that happen.

The problem with history is that we're creating it every day. If racism is allowed to grow unchecked, it will only get worse.

tulysg1982

06-21-2007, 02:10 AM

yes, i believe each and every person is racist in their own way.Nobody can deny that s\he never uttered a racial comment in his whole life.It is very natural for nature is itself devided.We may never have an equal society.Even i m racist for sometimes i feel disgusted against my own country's poor, illitarate people,against the korean neighbours that live beside ours.But i believe we can overcome this by how far we can check out our own racial attitude and also by finding out our own faults.

Mortis Anarchy

06-21-2007, 11:59 PM

I think that you're kidding yourself if you think all racists are atheists or that muslims aren't racists. The proof is out there every day that racism comes from all sectors of society, religious, non-religious, wherever. You must have seen or heard some of the comments. If not, please check some reputable international news sources and get back to me.

.

I am in full agreement that racism doesn't come from a specific group or whatever.

Themis

06-22-2007, 04:55 AM

I'm not trying to cause an argument so please don't all me racist. The thought has always just been in my head of "what caused racism?" and I figured that the large majority of this site is intellectual (I finally feel at home :D ) so i was hopeing to achieve 2 things.
1. a good convorsation
2. hopefully an answer or two
so if anyone can help answer "how did racism/segregation of minority groups start" please please PLEASE give a response

DANKE!

Since I just thought about it, I'll answer without going through the previous posts. Though I will, lateron.

I think some people are dumb. Really.

And then, I do think people can start being racist (still, there are some who won't!) when in their home town (or district) there is no longer a place where one doesn't meet a foreigner.
When you start to fear foreigners because they walk 'your' streets like they own them and throw you looks like _you_ are a guest in _their_ land, insult you when you pass by them and surround you when there's only one of you and five or more of them.
They don't have to start hitting people, there is enough force in a threat.

So, racism really is a result of fear, I daresay. Fear and anger.

Oh, and I really don't think it's about religion. In my opinion, it's more because there are too many of 'them' and one feels like their threating 'one's' place.

Turk

06-22-2007, 10:05 AM

I really don't want to give you a history lesson here, because if I do it will definitely involve getting into politics and that's not allowed. Please take the time to search through some of the statements made by radical islam, worldwide over the past 50 years. I'm no historian, so I'm not going to argue past history with you, but what happened 600 years is hardly relevany anyway.

The past half century is highly relevant and there is no question that many clerics and spokespeople for islam have made racist comments in public, in context.

Well, if you can give a history lesson to me ad teach me something i don't know i would be glad. I really don't know which İslam clerics or Muslim society made racist attacks or actions. So i would expect you to tell me that.

I am in full agreement that racism doesn't come from a specific group or whatever.

Yeah, i agree that, racism is not genetical. But on the other hand it's definetely culturally inherited in many places.

kilted exile

06-22-2007, 10:13 AM

Now Turk, I dont want to get too far into this because it is close to the politics rule, but would you not agree that there are a number of turkish people who discriminate against kurds? I saw a reasonable amount of this when I visited Turkey, and I think this could definitely be classified as a form of racism.

Racism exists in every country, there is no culture which is exempt from it.

Turk

06-22-2007, 10:23 AM

There's a little people who's the way you told, but on the other hand it's because European and USA supported Kurdish terror organization in Turkey. Even though everyone has equal rights here and %99 of Kurds and Turks lives in same districts and in same apartments. I am not blaming you, because i know why do you think that way, but let me tell European media is biased, liar and hypocrit especially about Turks and everyone knows historical hostile of Europe to Turks.

Now i should point; a kind of discrimination may appear for some people, but even their reaction is not a form of racism. Because none of these people claims Turks are supreme to other ethnicities in Turkey and none of them tries to burn other people. It's not even comparable with racism in west.

Themis

06-22-2007, 02:17 PM

but let me tell European media is biased, liar and hypocrit especially about Turks and everyone knows historical hostile of Europe to Turks.

Well. I daresay we have a right to feel some hostiliy towards the people who tried to storm Vienna twice in the past. 1529 and 1683. On a historical basis I mean.

Not that there are quite a lot of turks right now in Austria who try to enforce their culture on us. (Just in case I'm misunderstood: I have nothing against turks in general or Turkey. I occasionally go there myself. It's just certain individuals who catch the attention of Europe's mean media.)

And I think we're starting to drift towards politics here. Me too.

Turk

06-22-2007, 02:50 PM

Well. I daresay we have a right to feel some hostiliy towards the people who tried to storm Vienna twice in the past. 1529 and 1683. On a historical basis I mean.

Not that there are quite a lot of turks right now in Austria who try to enforce their culture on us. (Just in case I'm misunderstood: I have nothing against turks in general or Turkey. I occasionally go there myself. It's just certain individuals who catch the attention of Europe's mean media.)

And I think we're starting to drift towards politics here. Me too.

Well yeah, you were extremely lucky especially at second siege, you should be grateful to Polish people. But anyway it's not subject here...

If people should feel hostile about other people just because wars that occured 400-500 years ago, then every single nation should be enemy against each other in the world. Then you should also feel hostility toward European countries too, remember 30 years wars. So it's not a valid argument to point 500 years old wars as a reason of hostility. Also i've never seen a Turk who says; "i don't like Germans because we fought many times". Just clearly say "we don't like Turks because they are alien in Europe". Also i don't think there's any minority on the world which can enforce their culture to native and majority people of a country. And again as i pointed before you don't like Turks because they are alien; they don't want to adopt your culture and they keep their culture.

This is also a prove of that racism culturally inherited (i am not telling you are racist as an individual, but i remember a racist party's leader was almost going to be prime minister in Austria few years ago).

The Atheist

06-22-2007, 03:21 PM

Well, if you can give a history lesson to me ad teach me something i don't know i would be glad. I really don't know which İslam clerics or Muslim society made racist attacks or actions. So i would expect you to tell me that.

I have to confess to being amazed at this comment.

I'm not going to go into details, because as several of us have intimated, we're getting awfully close to politics.

Seriously, this isn't a historical matter - it's happening right now! Senior muslim clerics and leadership have taken up racist positions and made serious racist statements in the international media.

Please just have a look at some international news sources over the past few months.

Themis

06-22-2007, 03:54 PM

This is also a prove of that racism culturally inherited (i am not telling you are racist as an individual, but i remember a racist party's leader was almost going to be prime minister in Austria few years ago).

We do not have racist parties. And if you think whining about things that happened in the past is silly, you can very well stop bringing up Hitler all over again. One tires of these things.
He was a racist, yes. But that doesn't mean that we are a racist people. We're a people like any other.

I'm not going to participate in this discussion any longer. It's getting too heated for my liking and I don't care to be in the middle of it all. Sorry.

The Atheist

06-22-2007, 04:02 PM

I'm not going to participate in this discussion any longer. It's getting too heated for my liking and I don't care to be in the middle of it all. Sorry.

I wouldn't get too bothered.

"Cultural inheritance" was debunked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism) two centuries ago. The argument is invalid.

Turk

06-22-2007, 04:20 PM

Seriously, this isn't a historical matter - it's happening right now! Senior muslim clerics and leadership have taken up racist positions and made serious racist statements in the international media.

Please just have a look at some international news sources over the past few months.

Well buddy, if i had seen these comments i wouldn't ask you to show them to me. I've never heard or seen such a thing. That's why again i am asking; can you show me those racist comments?

We do not have racist parties. And if you think whining about things that happened in the past is silly, you can very well stop bringing up Hitler all over again. One tires of these things.
He was a racist, yes. But that doesn't mean that we are a racist people. We're a people like any other.

I didn't point Hitler. I pointed Jörg Haider. Here's an article by Immanuel Wallerstein;
http://fbc.binghamton.edu/36en.htm

"Cultural inheritance" was debunked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism) two centuries ago. The argument is invalid.

I didn't use "cultural inheritence" as a philosophic/sociological term and it has nothing to do with Lamarckism. I just meant some cultures more tend to racism so naturally it's inherited culturally.

Mortis Anarchy

06-22-2007, 08:56 PM

Well, if you can give a history lesson to me ad teach me something i don't know i would be glad. I really don't know which İslam clerics or Muslim society made racist attacks or actions. So i would expect you to tell me that.

Yeah, i agree that, racism is not genetical. But on the other hand it's definetely culturally inherited in many places.

I agree with that, but I think it is just carried on by "monkey see, monkey do" type thing with children and others being exposed to this...very bad thing!

The Atheist

06-22-2007, 09:36 PM

Well buddy, if i had seen these comments i wouldn't ask you to show them to me. I've never heard or seen such a thing. That's why again i am asking; can you show me those racist comments?

Here (http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=78985), here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html), here (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA25Ak02.html), here (http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_22143.shtml), here (http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/9176.htm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6167695.stm), here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/), here (http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html)....

That's a very short list compiled in a couple of minutes. I find it highly unlikely that you are completely unaware of these comments. Anyway, that should be enough to make you realise that muslims do and are making racist statements on a dialy basis. If you take the time to check these out and follow related articles, you will find literally thousands of similar comments, made either by members of the religious Junta which rules the coutry, or by politicians under the authority of the senior clerics.

Mortis Anarchy

06-22-2007, 09:40 PM

Here (http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=78985), here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/03/AR2006080300629.html), here (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HA25Ak02.html), here (http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_22143.shtml), here (http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/9176.htm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6167695.stm), here (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/27/ahmadinejad.reaction/), here (http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Muslim-cleric-women-incite-mens-lust-with-satanic-dress/2005/04/23/1114152362381.html)....

That's a very short list compiled in a couple of minutes. I find it highly unlikely that you are completely unaware of these comments. Anyway, that should be enough to make you realise that muslims do and are making racist statements on a dialy basis. If you take the time to check these out and follow related articles, you will find literally thousands of similar comments, made either by members of the religious Junta which rules the coutry, or by politicians under the authority of the senior clerics.

Wow...intense.

Turk

06-22-2007, 09:45 PM