thoughts on demons & spirits?...

[DeathAngel]

I've read many paranormal books, maninly dealing with exorcisms & ghosts, haunted houses...
when the author mentions demons, or evil spirts they mainly resort to exorcism,
however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

spirits interest me, so in christianity, do they exist, I'd say yes, but someone told there's a difference between the common spirit I'm talking about & the Holy Spirit...really is there, I know the holy spirit deals with Christ and all, but all in all, isn't just a spirit (with a little extra on the side)...
so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?



just in curiousity, this applies to christians: would you name your child damien or lucifer or any of the many demon names (too many)?

[Bakiryu]

I would. I've always found the name Lucifer beautiful. The real lucifer on the bibble was not a fallen angel but it all has gotten mixed by bad latin translations and stuff.

The Name Damien (or Damian) is good as well. I'll try for twins them.

I like Jezebel as a girls name too, or Judas for a boy ;)

[Bookworm4Him]

I've read many paranormal books, maninly dealing with exorcisms & ghosts, haunted houses...
when the author mentions demons, or evil spirts they mainly resort to exorcism,
however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

spirits interest me, so in christianity, do they exist, I'd say yes, but someone told there's a difference between the common spirit I'm talking about & the Holy Spirit...really is there, I know the holy spirit deals with Christ and all, but all in all, isn't just a spirit (with a little extra on the side)...
so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?

just in curiousity, this applies to christians: would you name your child damien or lucifer or any of the many demon names (too many)?

I don't think that there are ghosts who run around living in deserted houses who enjoy scaring people, but I do believe in demons and some spirits.

According to the Bible, demons are fallen angels, who sided with Satan, Lucifer, and became sinful. So, yes, I certainly believe in them.
As for spirits/ghosts, they aren't normal, but there are times in the Bible when a sorceress (evil, given power by Satan, not some Harry Potter person) would, using dark arts, call up spirits to answer questions. Saul had Samuel called up for him when he was about to lose in a battle against David's men. But these "spirits" were evil in the sight of God, and were very few and far btw.
The one other Spirit is the Holy Spirit, who lives inside of Christians. He, however, is part of the Trinity, and of God, and definite facts on Him are hard to pinpoint without long debates.
As to naming my kid Lucifer, no, I don't think I would, just because of the conotations that come with it. It, in itself, is not a bad name, in fact it means angel of light, but I would just steer clear of that. Although, interestingly enough, Luke, and a few other names are derived from Lucifer, and no one seems to mind. ???

[Redzeppelin]

Book's right - demons are real. Angels and demons both exist - and they are very, very busy. We forget that we are in the midst of a cosmic war - a war that isn't really about us - though we and our planet are the battle ground for this struggle. Christians who deny the existence of demons are only a step away from dismissing the existence of Satan himself (one of the two dangers CS Lewis cautioned about the Devil: either taking him too seriously, or not seriously at all).

[NikolaiI]

I don't get it - what is special about the bible - though I don't believe it is completey true, I would much sooner devote time and dedicate my life to something like the Bhagavad-Gita. And I would sooner worship the benevolent Hare Krshna than Jhwa, though I see them to be the same...

Demons aren't real. Though perhaps I shouldn't say that not having read the book by Dostyevsky called Demons.

[Redzeppelin]

I don't get it - what is special about the bible - though I don't believe it is completey true, I would much sooner devote time and dedicate my life to something like the Bhagavad-Gita. And I would sooner worship the benevolent Hare Krshna than Jhwa, though I see them to be the same...

Demons aren't real. Though perhaps I shouldn't say that not having read the book by Dostyevsky called Demons.

The Bible is special because it is the revelation of the one true God - no other "god" compares in terms of the Divine characteristics attributed to God. And no, Hare Krshna and God are not the same at all - to say so reveals a misunderstanding as to the nature of God.

Demons are real.

[NikolaiI]

Oh, you replied very quickly. I was going to add this to my post, but I had to refresh when I was done typing it..


"But, as a Christian, I don't think demons exist in real life, outside of ones in our mind, that is, nothing supernatural, though I did once, and once I thought I saw one. I don't think there are supernatural demons, though. I do believe in parapsychology, though I think it is entirely natural. And yes, I am a Christian, as well as Hindu, Buddhist, Rastafarian, etc."

Okay, I won't contest that with you.

"And no, Hare Krshna and God are not the same at all - to say so reveals a misunderstanding as to the nature of God."

May I ask what you view Krshna as? I meant to type Krshna before, I don't think Hare is part of the name.

--

All the definitions of Krishna I know describe him exactly as Pascal describes Yhwa. A perfect supreme being, infinite where we are finite, and possessing all good attributes, everything that is good, in an infinite degree. The Supreme Personality of Godhead. And many holy men, humble sages, or whatever you would call them, are Hindus and Buddhists.

[Redzeppelin]

Oh, you replied very quickly. I was going to add this to my post, but I had to refresh when I was done typing it..


"But, as a Christian, I don't think demons exist in real life, outside of ones in our mind, that is, nothing supernatural, though I did once, and once I thought I saw one. I don't think there are supernatural demons, though. I do believe in parapsychology, though I think it is entirely natural. And yes, I am a Christian, as well as Hindu, Buddhist, Rastafarian, etc."

The Bible tells us that when Satan rebelled against God, 1/3 of the heavenly host of angels joined him - what do you think they spend their time doing?


Okay, I won't contest that with you.

Why not? Discussions are more fun that way.


May I ask what you view Krshna as? I meant to type Krshna before, I don't think Hare is part of the name.

Krshna cannot be equal to God - to my knowledge, Krshna did not claim to create the universe and all in it; nor did he claim omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. I may be wrong here, and I humbly wait for your correction (since I have none of my sources here at the moment to enlighten me on Krshna).

[Turk]

According to İslam there's Genies (i am not sure if it's demon in English) and they existed before mankind. Although their dimension is different than ours. They are like men. There's bad genies and good genies too. Most of paranormal attacks made by bad genies (Efreets) also haunted houses are houses which invaded by genies, it's believed they prefer to live in deserted places. And also they are the thing that comes to mediums when they made spirit call seances.

Anyway, i believe there's paranormal events. But also there's many liars who lie people by claiming they are able to contact dead people. Again according to my belief, dead souls are not able to come back this world also true mediums contacs genies, not souls.

[hyperborean]

demons, ghosts, and spirits are imaginary. hell is imaginary.

[NikolaiI]

Krshna cannot be equal to God - to my knowledge, Krshna did not claim to create the universe and all in it; nor did he claim omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. I may be wrong here, and I humbly wait for your correction (since I have none of my sources here at the moment to enlighten me on Krshna).

Well, as I understand it Hindus believe what is here has always been here, so that doesn't require or allow a creation. Anyone feel free to correct me.

All I know about Krshna is what I've read in the Bhagavad-Gita, and that was only a small amount. But I really like what it says about Krshna consciousness, for instance, and how every part of Krshna should be working for the good of all. That resonates with me. And I respect all its ideas about meditation and transcendentalism.

And I really love the pictures of Krshna, he looks so beautiful. It's good to read something that has a clear knowledge of what is pure and beautiful, and things like that. It says that Krshna doesn't care about gold or wealth, and will accept an offering to him of a leaf, water or fruit, or even a pure thought if it is given in Krshna consciousness. It instills me with inspiration.

I like how it says that to be enlightened you must look upon a mound of gold as the same as a mound of dirt, and see no difference between the dog and the dog eater, or something like that. How a pure devotee sees the God in everyone.

[weepingforloman]

I've read many paranormal books, maninly dealing with exorcisms & ghosts, haunted houses...
when the author mentions demons, or evil spirts they mainly resort to exorcism,
however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

spirits interest me, so in christianity, do they exist, I'd say yes, but someone told there's a difference between the common spirit I'm talking about & the Holy Spirit...really is there, I know the holy spirit deals with Christ and all, but all in all, isn't just a spirit (with a little extra on the side)...
so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?



just in curiousity, this applies to christians: would you name your child damien or lucifer or any of the many demon names (too many)?

To start with the last question, I don't know that anyone is named Lucifer any more, and Damien was a name essentially made up. I am not familiar with other "demon names."

However, the traditional view of Christianity maintains the existence of angels. Angels can be good (what we would simply call angels) or bad (devils--read the Screwtape Letters, specifically the preface). I believe demons exist, and that they have, at certain times and places, interfered either physically or spiritually with humanity. Make of that what you will.


Well, as I understand it Hindus believe what is here has always been here, so that doesn't require or allow a creation. Anyone feel free to correct me.

All I know about Krshna is what I've read in the Bhagavad-Gita, and that was only a small amount. But I really like what it says about Krshna consciousness, for instance, and how every part of Krshna should be working for the good of all. That resonates with me. And I respect all its ideas about meditation and transcendentalism.

And I really love the pictures of Krshna, he looks so beautiful. It's good to read something that has a clear knowledge of what is pure and beautiful, and things like that. It says that Krshna doesn't care about gold or wealth, and will accept an offering to him of a leaf, water or fruit, or even a pure thought if it is given in Krshna consciousness. It instills me with inspiration.

I like how it says that to be enlightened you must look upon a mound of gold as the same as a mound of dirt, and see no difference between the dog and the dog eater, or something like that. How a pure devotee sees the God in everyone.

Does that mean we must see God in murder, war, rape, and cancer? Dualism or atheism are the only logical outlooks, and I choose dualism (Christianity involves a rather well developed dualism).

[stella]

however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?


are you sure they are "devoted " because if they are i wish to know which bible they are reading ... i am deeply offended as a Christian to hear that .
demons exist so do angels the holy spirit is God it is the first thing they taught us .

"none so empty of grace as he that thinks he is full"
-Thomas Watson-

[weepingforloman]

demons, ghosts, and spirits are imaginary. hell is imaginary.

This is a bit off topic, but I really do have a question to ask you. Why do you, as an obvious atheist, feel the need to argue with us? I am not being facetious. Do you see yourself as a counter-evangelist? Do you simply want to make us look stupid? Is it simply for the challenge, or do you see yourself somehow protecting the defenseless masses from being manipulated? I really want to hear an answer, I am not messing with you.

[Logos]

This is a bit off topic, but I really do have a question to ask you. Why do you, as an obvious atheist, feel the need to argue with us?
Well...not speaking for hyper, but it's an example of this being a public discussion board open to all, and no different than Christians 'arguing' their religious viewpoint in Buddhist, Atheism etc. topics :)

[weepingforloman]

My question is really "what does an atheist hope to accomplish by arguing with theists?"

[kilted exile]

The reverse of that question is just as significant: "What do theists hope to accomplish by arguing with atheists?" e.g the waht do atheists believe happens after death thread.

[Redzeppelin]

I always assume that the point of the questions posed above is simply for both sides to articulate their arguments for consideration. Otherwise one is just "preaching to the choir" and that's no fun at all.

[kilted exile]

Yes, that is the point it just annoys me when it is stated that because such and such a person does not believe x they have no business replying to topic y.

[JGL57]

It is part of cultural evolution that a certain number of persons will step up and speak truth to power. Otherwise, humans would still be eating their meat raw, living in caves, and hooting like monkeys instead of having conversations utilizing created syntactical languages.

As some wit once observed, reality has a liberal bias (in time, I would add).

[Fen]

There are two saint Damiens one a cardinal and another a martyr so I think Damien is a suitable name I think it just got hijacked by the (great) Omen trilogy.
Also I do believe in demons and angels though I think it varies from church to church on whether they exist or not. The Catholic Church has exorcists but I think the Anglican and Low Church frown on it.

[JGL57]

Demons and angels are wonderful imagery and an undeniable part of the Jungian archetypes of our collective unconsciousness.

[weepingforloman]

The reverse of that question is just as significant: "What do theists hope to accomplish by arguing with atheists?" e.g the waht do atheists believe happens after death thread.

See, there is an inherent difference in the purpose of a theist and the purpose of an atheist. An atheist, presumably, has no vested interest in the spiritual life of others. Theists often (and Christians always) have a responsibility to speak the truth. My point is, what does an atheist care if someone chooses to worship God? (Don't bother trying to turn that question right back at me, a Christian always wants more to come to Christ)

[Logos]

I've read many paranormal books, maninly dealing with exorcisms & ghosts, haunted houses...
when the author mentions demons, or evil spirts they mainly resort to exorcism,
however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

spirits interest me, so in christianity, do they exist, I'd say yes, but someone told there's a difference between the common spirit I'm talking about & the Holy Spirit...really is there, I know the holy spirit deals with Christ and all, but all in all, isn't just a spirit (with a little extra on the side)...
so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?



just in curiousity, this applies to christians: would you name your child damien or lucifer or any of the many demon names (too many)?

Ok, time to get back on topic please :)

[SleepyWitch]

I read somewhere that the name Lucifer was originally the name of the son of the goddess Aurora in Roman mythology. I think it means "bringer of light" in Latin and Aurora was the goddess of the dawn.
Maybe this name was later included as a name for Satan in the Latin translations of the Bible?

i kind of believe that demons and angels exist although I'm not a Christian and could probably be best described as an atheist. does this make sense? probably not :D :)

[hyperborean]

This is a bit off topic, but I really do have a question to ask you. Why do you, as an obvious atheist, feel the need to argue with us? I am not being facetious. Do you see yourself as a counter-evangelist? Do you simply want to make us look stupid? Is it simply for the challenge, or do you see yourself somehow protecting the defenseless masses from being manipulated? I really want to hear an answer, I am not messing with you.

I can't help myself when I see adults post about things that don't physically exist. You don't have to be an atheist to reject the existence of ghosts and spirits by the way. And, yes I'm trying to maybe snap my finger in front of those who seem hypnotized by some of this.

[linz]

Lucifer and 'the morning star' are in the old testament, and maybe reappear in the new testament with the 'son of perdition' and the one to 'rule all nations with the morning star'. You should also read Ezekiel: 28 for more on Lucifer. Of demons I think more of Christ's mentioning of the 'tormentors'; Though he brings them up when speaking about them being allowed to terrorize you until you forgive others their trespasses.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

I can't help myself when I see adults post about things that don't physically exist. You don't have to be an atheist to reject the existence of ghosts and spirits by the way. And, yes I'm trying to maybe snap my finger in front of those who seem hypnotized by some of this.

I agree, this sort of thing seems pretty farfetched. The bible also describes a geocentric universe, a man living in a fish for a few days, 40 days or rain, talking plants and animals, and that all humans once spoke the same language (Tower of Babel story); how strange these things don't happen anymore...

Angels, ghosts and demons are not real; to believe in these while rejecting the listed absurdities is ludicrous, if only because they came from the exact same source.

Earlier, I noticed that one of you mentioned that Krishna is not God, which is the main reason I've decided to post. Earlier in the Mahabharata, a holy text of Hinduism, it is stated that God reveals himself through incarnations. It happens that there were 23 incarnations before Lord Krishna, and one after.

The all-encompassing holy text, comparable to the Gospel in Christianity, is widely considered to be the Bhagavad-Gita, an epic poem of around 100 pages (I highly recommend it). In the poem, a General named Arjuna is about to fight a battle against another army and is chauffered to battle by none other than God himself, unbenownst to him. Lord Krishna then freezes the battle right before it is about to begin and reveals the way to enlightenment to Arjuna.

Arjuna asks him questions and Krishna answers them. Krishna states that suffering is ultimately caused by ignorance of things which command one's condition, and more or less states that it is best to not want or expect anything. The things you think you have are not yours to begin with, so to be attached to them and claim ownership is absurd. A good man will labor for the sake of labor and not for its fruits. Once you perfect this, you'll know the truth and stop reincarnation and constant misery.

So, perhaps Krishna does not tell him that he is all-knowing and powerful, but that isn't necessary; why would God have to tell people that he is God? In fact, that is entirely beside and contrary to the point of the poem. Moksha doesn't rely on a leap of faith and has no set of rules; the goal is to purely remove ignorance and live as such.

[Redzeppelin]

I can't help myself when I see adults post about things that don't physically exist. You don't have to be an atheist to reject the existence of ghosts and spirits by the way. And, yes I'm trying to maybe snap my finger in front of those who seem hypnotized by some of this.


My friend, your posting creates problems for me because you have said (more than once, by the way) you believe in the existence of God; how can you say that and this at the same time?

[weepingforloman]

I can't help myself when I see adults post about things that don't physically exist.

I'm sixteen. And God is not physical, so this comment has no bearing.

[JGL57]

I'm sixteen. And God is not physical, so this comment has no bearing.

But, outside of deists, those who believe in an admittedly non-physical god claim that that very same god acts in the physical universe performing magic, i.e., causing a suspension of the natural order here and there, now and then. There is no proof of that. That is what atheists object to - these unsubstantiated claims that are logically equivalent to the invisible fire-breathing dragons claim - or the claims of psychics, astrologers, spoon-benders and other forms of hocus pocus.

BTW, what does your being 16 years old have to do with anything. I am 58 years old. Do I get over three, nearly four times the Brownie points for whatever than you do?

[hyperborean]

I'm sixteen.

Good, there is still hope for awakening.

And red, there are plenty of people who believe in god and reject the idea of ghosts and spirits on earth.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

Deism doesn't necessarily admit a dual God.

[NikolaiI]

BTW, what does your being 16 years old have to do with anything. I am 58 years old. Do I get over three, nearly four times the Brownie points for whatever than you do?

Most of our society does respect people your age more and takes them more seriously. It's sort of intuitive - the idea is that people your age should be wise, or wiser, and have valuable information to impart.

And don't we always, when we're young, judge those who are older and have the firmest belief that we will be much more happy than they, when we are their age? that we will have more success - measured by whatever we measure it by?

And there are good reasons for trusting and respecting, but age should not be the sole factor, of course. Personally, I believe I have a remarkable ability to measure the good of a person, but I cannot see too far into the future, indeed, who can?

Uh, anyway. I don't know where I was going with that, lol.

[weepingforloman]

But, outside of deists, those who believe in an admittedly non-physical god claim that that very same god acts in the physical universe performing magic, i.e., causing a suspension of the natural order here and there, now and then. There is no proof of that. That is what atheists object to - these unsubstantiated claims that are logically equivalent to the invisible fire-breathing dragons claim - or the claims of psychics, astrologers, spoon-benders and other forms of hocus pocus.

BTW, what does your being 16 years old have to do with anything. I am 58 years old. Do I get over three, nearly four times the Brownie points for whatever than you do?

No... God created and sustains the natural, He is supernatural, therefore He is not physical... His entirely spiritual nature is not a weakness, but rather a strength ("the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing").

I mentioned that I'm sixteen because hyperborean said something about not being able to stand "adults" talking about things that "can't physically exist."

[Turk]

I can't help myself when I see adults post about things that don't physically exist. You don't have to be an atheist to reject the existence of ghosts and spirits by the way. And, yes I'm trying to maybe snap my finger in front of those who seem hypnotized by some of this.

How can you talk so sure they don't exist physically? Maybe they exist but we are unable to contact them?

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

No... God created and sustains the natural, He is supernatural, therefore He is not physical... His entirely spiritual nature is not a weakness, but rather a strength ("the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing").

Cartesian anyone?

Def (as written above): God is not physical but rather entirely spiritual.

Prop: If God is entirely not physical, then God could not affect something which is physical.

Proof: In order for one thing to affect another thing, a physical phenomenon must occur. If God is unable to be described physically, he has no physical attributes. Something with no physical attributes cannot bring about a physical phenomeon. Therefore, since God has no physical attributes, he cannot affect another thing physically.

[hyperborean]

I mentioned that I'm sixteen because hyperborean said something about not being able to stand "adults" talking about things that "can't physically exist."

I said "don't" physically exist. There is no evidence of their existence.

[JGL57]

… God created and sustains the natural, He is supernatural, therefore He is not physical... His entirely spiritual nature is not a weakness...

Is this an attempt to define the imaginary in terms of the incomprehensible, or explain the unknowable in terms of the meaningless?

I say both. :D

[ennison]

'God created and sustains the natural, He is supernatural, therefore He is not physical... His entirely spiritual nature is not a weakness...'

Perfectly comprehensible

[Turk]

Muslims prefers to not to talk about existence (physical/spiritual) of God. Because we can't know it.

On the other hand you have flawed logic about your arguments (people who says it) if someone believes God, he believes God have physical existence too.

[JGL57]

'God created and sustains the natural, He is supernatural, therefore He is not physical... His entirely spiritual nature is not a weakness...'

Perfectly comprehensible

But an unsubstantiated assertion. I believe there is invisible immaterial leprechaun clinging to the back of your head. Prove me wrong.

Same thing.

[weepingforloman]

Cartesian anyone?

Def (as written above): God is not physical but rather entirely spiritual.

Prop: If God is entirely not physical, then God could not affect something which is physical.

Wrong-- spirit is not lesser than, but rather greater than, matter. God's power is not limited by His non-physicality-- He is still omnipotent, and creation (read: the universe) is dependent on His sustaining power. Every motion of a quark, electron, atom, molecule, cell, muscle, and organism is dependent on His sovereign will. God has the ability to interfere with nature because He created it-- and He created merely by making declarations ("Let there be light"). He manipulates it without being material... but yet He manipulates it.

Grace and Peace.

[weepingforloman]

I said "don't" physically exist. There is no evidence of their existence.

My apologies. But I believe my point is still valid.

Peace and Grace.

[JGL57]

Wrong-- spirit is not lesser than, but rather greater than, matter. God's power is not limited by His non-physicality-- He is still omnipotent, and creation (read: the universe) is dependent on His sustaining power. Every motion of a quark, electron, atom, molecule, cell, muscle, and organism is dependent on His sovereign will. God has the ability to interfere with nature because He created it-- and He created merely by making declarations ("Let there be light"). He manipulates it without being material... but yet He manipulates it.

Grace and Peace.

And you know all this or you believe all this?

If you merely believe all this, you have nothing.

If you know it, then prove it. If you can't prove it, then you have nothing.

If you pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, I will not believe you.

Peace and Grace back at you.

[studentamy]

I am a christian and i absolutely believe in demons and spirits. Last weekend i attended a conference where there were deliverances...scary and confirming for sure. But more than anything, it showed me that everything (no matter how nasty they were) was submissive to the name of Jesus Christ!! My faith has sky rocketed since seeing these things. Theres no denying this reality. I also think people can have an unnatural interest in demons and their manifestations which is to be avoided. But overall, the Holy Spirit is greater than all these things and if you wish to witness that check out churches that deal in deliverance ministry. its very eye opening.

[JGL57]

I am a christian and i absolutely believe in demons and spirits. Last weekend i attended a conference where there were deliverances...scary and confirming for sure. But more than anything, it showed me that everything (no matter how nasty they were) was submissive to the name of Jesus Christ!! My faith has sky rocketed since seeing these things. Theres no denying this reality....

Oh, no? Well, rather than "deny" it, let's say I doubt it to the point of utter disbelief. Nevertheless it sounds like you had fun! Maybe you should invite some of your Episcopalian friends over for a taste of old time religion - if you can get them to put down their wine and cheese for a sec.


..I also think people can have an unnatural interest in demons and their manifestations which is to be avoided. But overall, the Holy Spirit is greater than all these things and if you wish to witness that check out churches that deal in deliverance ministry. its very eye opening.

I attended a Pentecostal meeting once, out of curiosity. There is no denying that it was an eye-opening experience. And they had a hell of a rock band.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

Wrong-- spirit is not lesser than, but rather greater than, matter. God's power is not limited by His non-physicality-- He is still omnipotent, and creation (read: the universe) is dependent on His sustaining power. Every motion of a quark, electron, atom, molecule, cell, muscle, and organism is dependent on His sovereign will. God has the ability to interfere with nature because He created it-- and He created merely by making declarations ("Let there be light"). He manipulates it without being material... but yet He manipulates it.

Grace and Peace.

Uh, did you not read my post?

[weepingforloman]

I did-- you claimed that God cannot interfere with the universe because He is not physical. Spirit animates matter (in humans, that is), so why can it not manipulate it?

Grace and Peace.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

I did-- you claimed that God cannot interfere with the universe because He is not physical. Spirit animates matter (in humans, that is), so why can it not manipulate it?

Grace and Peace.

I'll take that as a "no"; your counterarguments are answered by my original post. Don't bother with a reply, I think I am finished with the thread.

[kilted exile]

Ralph, the problem with your post is that the theist can see god as non physical, spiritual & spiritual energy. Energy as we know can affect physical things.

[Turk]

Energy as we know can affect physical things.

According to physicians from Planck to Einstein energy's itself is a physical thing. Because energy exists, energy never disappears and it can transform into another kind of existence. But i think atheists trying to bring up new aspects to the science of physics. I appreciate their contribution to the science of physics. Well done atheists well done! :thumbs_up

[kilted exile]

According to physicians from Planck to Einstein energy's itself is a physical thing. Because energy exists, energy never disappears and it can transform into another kind of existence. But i think atheists trying to bring up new aspects to the science of physics. I appreciate their contribution to the science of physics. Well done atheists well done! :thumbs_up

I know energy is classified as physical. My point is that many theists see God (in this case as manifested by the holy spirit) as a form of spiritual energy or in the case of ghosts/spirits as paranormal energy. Therefore the original premise to Ralphs argument can basically be ignored

[Turk]

I know energy is classified as physical.

I didn't post it for you; i know you know energy is classified as physical.:yawnb:

[Niamh]

I read somewhere that the name Lucifer was originally the name of the son of the goddess Aurora in Roman mythology. I think it means "bringer of light" in Latin and Aurora was the goddess of the dawn.
Maybe this name was later included as a name for Satan in the Latin translations of the Bible?

i kind of believe that demons and angels exist although I'm not a Christian and could probably be best described as an atheist. does this make sense? probably not :D :)

Lucifer was the morning and evening star, an ancient personification of Venus. He is mentioned in the bible perticularly Isaiah 14:12 which discusses the fall of Babylon. it is believed that because of a typo in an edition of the bible, where an Apostrophe was used instead of a full stop, that Lucifer ended up falsly associated with Satan. Satan is another name for Samael/Asmodeus, one of the fallen angels. Samael was the guardian of the 5th heaven, Machon, which i think is what we represent as hell today.

I do believe in ghosts and spirits. Just because we cant see something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

[hyperborean]

I am a christian and i absolutely believe in demons and spirits. Last weekend i attended a conference where there were deliverances...scary and confirming for sure. But more than anything, it showed me that everything (no matter how nasty they were) was submissive to the name of Jesus Christ!! My faith has sky rocketed since seeing these things. Theres no denying this reality. I also think people can have an unnatural interest in demons and their manifestations which is to be avoided. But overall, the Holy Spirit is greater than all these things and if you wish to witness that check out churches that deal in deliverance ministry. its very eye opening.

I'm glad their brainwashing techniques worked on you.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

I know energy is classified as physical. My point is that many theists see God (in this case as manifested by the holy spirit) as a form of spiritual energy or in the case of ghosts/spirits as paranormal energy. Therefore the original premise to Ralphs argument can basically be ignored

There were no premises, please reread.

[PeterL]

This is a very interesting discussion. It appears that no one provided any information that was new to any of the other participants. Everyone has taken their assumptions as truth without any evidence or more than the slighest bit of logic.

My opinion is that angels and demons may exist, but I have never met any, so I am not certain, but I am not willing to claim that they do not exist simply because I have never encountered any. There is no logical inconsistency about entities of another realm of existence having influence in this time-space.

[JGL57]

This is a very interesting discussion. It appears that no one provided any information that was new to any of the other participants. Everyone has taken their assumptions as truth without any evidence or more than the slighest bit of logic.

My opinion is that angels and demons may exist, but I have never met any, so I am not certain, but I am not willing to claim that they do not exist simply because I have never encountered any. There is no logical inconsistency about entities of another realm of existence having influence in this time-space.

But do you take such claims seriously? I am unaware of any evidence in favor of them. Are you? If not, you agree such claims are trivial? If so, no need to split hairs. If not, then split a hair.

[weepingforloman]

Ok, J, since I BELIEVE you are pantheist (that IS what you said, right?)...
What proof do you have of your impersonal God? What proof do you have that nature, mankind, and all else is God? Well, not proof, but evidence.

[JGL57]

Ok, J, since I BELIEVE you are pantheist (that IS what you said, right?)...

More like a panmonist, actually. My position on pantheism is that it is a trivial claim. It may be true, it may not - whatever. If it is true, it answers ALL of the objections to atheism by monotheists. That is why I have such a benevolent attitude toward it. I love pantheism - I wish everyone did.


...What proof do you have of your impersonal God? What proof do you have that nature, mankind, and all else is God? Well, not proof, but evidence...

None whatsoever, just like your "proof" and "evidence" for a monotheistic god, and a monotheistically-created universe.

It's just that pantheism is not internally illogical and self-contradictory, i.e., is logically possible, it is compatible with ALL observed phenomena without a lot of apologetics required, and no one, to my knowledge, had ever murdered or engaged in other violence in the name of pantheism (e.g., "I am a pantheist. You are not? Then you must die, blaspheming heretic!" - I find it impossible to imagine this scenario in the real world.)

[Redzeppelin]

It's just that pantheism is not internally illogical and self-contradictory, i.e., is logically possible, it is compatible with ALL observed phenomena without a lot of apologetics required, and no one, to my knowledge, had ever murdered or engaged in other violence in the name of pantheism (e.g., "I am a pantheist. You are not? Then you must die, blaspheming heretic!" - I find it impossible to imagine this scenario in the real world.)

Problem #1 w/ Pantheism:
Fails to account for the features of reality that are expressed in the cosmological, design and moral arguments for the existence of God.

Problem #2 w/ Pantheism:
Because Pantheism says God is impersonal, God cannot be intelligent because only persons have intelligence.

Problem #3 w/ Pantheism:
If everything that exists is itself a part of God, then nothing can be transcendant.

Problem #4 w/ Pantheism:
If the universe is eternal and unchanging and has no beginning or end, then that would involve the existence of actual infinities, which cannot exist (see the Kalam Cosmological argument).

All beliefs fanatically adhered to can result in fanatics. Christianity is not alone in this - politics gets included as well.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

This would be better in a new thread

[weepingforloman]

More like a panmonist, actually. My position on pantheism is that it is a trivial claim. It may be true, it may not - whatever. If it is true, it answers ALL of the objections to atheism by monotheists. That is why I have such a benevolent attitude toward it. I love pantheism - I wish everyone did.
Ok, I thought you actually believed it-- my mistake.




None whatsoever, just like your "proof" and "evidence" for a monotheistic god, and a monotheistically-created universe.
I asked for your proof on the basis that you asked me for mine-- I thought you actually believed in a pantheistic God.


It's just that pantheism is not internally illogical and self-contradictory, i.e., is logically possible, it is compatible with ALL observed phenomena without a lot of apologetics required, and no one, to my knowledge, had ever murdered or engaged in other violence in the name of pantheism (e.g., "I am a pantheist. You are not? Then you must die, blaspheming heretic!" - I find it impossible to imagine this scenario in the real world.)
Ok, but no one SHOULD ever kill in the name of God... Those who do should consult their respective scriptures.

[Tuesday]

Ok, but no one SHOULD ever kill in the name of God... Those who do should consult their respective scriptures.

Killing 'in the name of God' and killing because you simply believe it is the right thing to do are different things. And in all honesty, I think scripture is the entirely wrong thing to consult in this case. You can back up almost everything this way by just choosing and picking as you wish.

[weepingforloman]

Umm, no. Christ forbade His disciples to carry even a walking staff, let alone weapons.

[hyperborean]

for some reason the word "crusade" is screaming in my head.

[JGL57]

for some reason the word "crusade" is screaming in my head.

The KKK? The christian identity church? Murderous history of christians vs. mormons in the U.S.? Protestants and catholics murdering each other for decades in Northern Ireland? Inquisition? Open season on "christ-killer" jews for centuries? Forced conversion at the point of a sword of indigenous Americans? Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Niamh]

can i just point out that the northern Ireland issue is NOT just about religion, and no one is fighting in the name of god. Its about land, loyalty and freedom. and seeing as this is supposed to be a thread about demons and spirits, i dont see what its got to do with it.

[kilted exile]

can i just point out that the northern Ireland issue is NOT just about religion, and no one is fighting in the name of god. Its about land, loyalty and freedom. and seeing as this is supposed to be a thread about demons and spirits, i dont see what its got to do with it.

Quite, far too often people dont look at the deeper reasons for things. They see religious belief and blame religion. I have known catholics in support of Britain & protestants who were in favour of independence. To paint "the troubles" as a solely religious conflict is to misunderstand the reasons behind it.

[Niamh]

Quite, far too often people dont look at the deeper reasons for things. They see religious belief and blame religion. I have known catholics in support of Britain & protestants who were in favour of independence. To paint "the troubles" as a solely religious conflict is to misunderstand the reasons behind it.

As a fellow gael you understand what its like. I mean the scots have gone through alot as well.

(Okay on topic)
you also have some amazing haunting stories about demons, spirits and exorcisms! Isnt there a special group of church leaders in Edinburgh for exorcisms? I think i read about them in Supernatural Scotland.

[kilted exile]

(Okay on topic)
you also have some amazing haunting stories about demons, spirits and exorcisms! Isnt there a special group of church leaders in Edinburgh for exorcisms? I think i read about them in Supernatural Scotland.

I wouldnt know I am a skeptic regarding all this stuff ("Facts, facts, teach them nothing but facts";) )

[weepingforloman]

The KKK? The christian identity church? Murderous history of christians vs. mormons in the U.S.? Protestants and catholics murdering each other for decades in Northern Ireland? Inquisition? Open season on "christ-killer" jews for centuries? Forced conversion at the point of a sword of indigenous Americans? Etc. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Note: I said "SHOULD" not "DON'T". Anti-Semitism, racism, hatred of Islamic/Mormon people, etc. are wrong... I understand that. The problem is that people don't take Christ's words seriously enough, not that they take them too seriously.


for some reason the word "crusade" is screaming in my head.

Right, because the actions of the highly secular office of the papacy in the Middle Ages are representative of all Christians, at all times. Right.

[Niamh]

I wouldnt know I am a skeptic regarding all this stuff ("Facts, facts, teach them nothing but facts";) )

most of the time facts are wrong anyway! ;)
Well i'm one of these people who believe in ghost, demons, poltergists, and other spirits. And this includes Angels, as the angels of the bible, the hierarchys and the 7 heavens of ...well heaven have a big involvement in spirituality and the "afterlife". From my own experiences, especially in Edinburgh(thats one hell of a haunted city!), there is definitely something of the spirit amongst the living.

[hyperborean]

Right, because the actions of the highly secular office of the papacy in the Middle Ages are representative of all Christians, at all times. Right.

But this is how the predominance of Christianity came to be...killing innocent people and forcing them to covert. Thou Shall Not Kill? How hypocritical.

[linz]

As in concerning your Pantheism or your Abraxos or what have you, it is true, 'God is all', but do from the sciences we learn that there are inner understanding of the physical world, but are perhaps inner meanings to the mental as well as physical, and is there a mystery which unravels them both, which is your God?

[JGL57]

But this is how the predominance of Christianity came to be...killing innocent people and forcing them to covert. Thou Shall Not Kill? How hypocritical.

Exactly - this is how christianity grew to the numbers it has today - Darwinian selection of the most brutal. How many people, in most "christian" countries, in most of history, were given basic freedom to chose their own religion? I myself, and most atheists and other religious dissenters in the modern world only have to face social ostrazation, discrimmination and threats of various types. Death and torture were the options we would have had to face for our "non-belief" in most places during most of history. Atheists were generally thought to be demons and evil spirits.

Is this really news to some people?

[Scheherazade]

This is the OP of this thread. Let's keep it on track please.
I've read many paranormal books, maninly dealing with exorcisms & ghosts, haunted houses...
when the author mentions demons, or evil spirts they mainly resort to exorcism,
however I've heard many "devoted" christians claim that they don't believe in demons, or they aren't sure demons exist, in metaphoric way I'd agree, we all battle our own inner demons, sometimes outer also...
so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

spirits interest me, so in christianity, do they exist, I'd say yes, but someone told there's a difference between the common spirit I'm talking about & the Holy Spirit...really is there, I know the holy spirit deals with Christ and all, but all in all, isn't just a spirit (with a little extra on the side)...
so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?



just in curiousity, this applies to christians: would you name your child damien or lucifer or any of the many demon names (too many)?

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

Not to interrupt such amazing discussion, but I have found some philosophy that is relevant to demons and spirits. Just throwing it out there, no worries (and it's not about Jesus, so sorry...):

Baruch Spinoza to Hugo Boxel

Let56-P01.
Dear Sir, -Your letter, which I received yesterday, was most welcome to me, both because I wanted to hear news of you, and also because it shows that you have not utterly forgotten me. Although some might think it a bad omen, that ghosts are the cause of your writing to me, I, on the contrary, can discern a deeper meaning in the circumstance; I see that not only truths, but also things trifling and imaginary may be of use to me.

Let56-P02.
However, let us defer the question, whether ghosts are delusions and imaginary, for I see that not only denial of them, but even doubt about them seems very singular to you, as to one who has been convinced by the numerous histories related by men of to-day and the ancients. The great esteem and honour, in which I have always held and still hold you, does not suffer me to contradict you, still less to humour you. The middle course, which I shall adopt, is to beg you to be kind enough to select from the numerous stories which you have read, one or two of those least open to doubt, and most clearly demonstrating the existence of ghosts. For, to confess the truth, I have never read a trustworthy author, who clearly showed that there are such things. Up to the present time I do not know what they are, and no one has ever been able to tell me. Yet it is evident, that in the case of a thing so clearly shown by experience we ought to know what it is; otherwise we shall have great difficulty in gathering from histories that ghosts exist. We only gather that something exists of nature unknown. If philosophers choose to call things which we do not know "ghosts," I shall not deny the existence of such, for there are an infinity of things, which I cannot make out.


Edit: I would have posted a link but the website is messy. This is easier.

Edit again: Although my post, albeit long, actually pertained to the thread's topic, it was almost fully erased while the last two pages of unrelated, emotional nonsense are left as is. I'd like to thank the moderator for erasing cited information from a text written by a legitimate philosopher and metaphysician. In fact, there's enough here to suggest that you've done the exact opposite of what your position as moderator calls for (which incidentally isn't very demanding). Furthermore, there is no mention in the rules page of how long a post can be. Great job, keep up the good work

[Logos]

Edit: I would have posted a link but the website is messy. This is easier.

You're supposed to cite your sources, especially when you copy and paste pages from them:

home.earthlink.net/~tneff/let5652.htm#P02

Please read the rules again, especially #5 and #8.

[Nightshade]

so, to those christian & not, what is your take on demons?

While I was at uni I met a morracon guy and one night the pair of us proceeded to freak out some of our friends by talking about demons, spirts possestion mostly the evil eye though and swapping ideas of different wards/ prayers and such. I have to say though he knew heck of alot scraier things than me. Mostly in a in () they do this and this oh and of course if this happens you have to do that and that.

Demons well I dont really belive in them that is to say not in the christian fallen agnle idea, since I dont belive that angels have free will and are thus incapable of 'falling' or defying God.( Lucifer was the greatest and most loved creation because he wasnt an angel but a Gin whose belief and piety(??) parraleled that of the angels. In my beliefs anyway) then like turk said you have good gin and bad gin and once upon a time there was amassive war in which the angels foucght along side the good Gin.
I do elive in angels gin and other things not so sure about ghosts in fact pretty sure I dont belive in them but whatever.


so what do you if you do run into one, or some haunted house?
I actually used to know a proper prayer for this when I was 12 and 13 I was the oldest girl on the school bus and the teachers were all lazy so and sos so I was in charge of keeping everyone especially the boys quiet and I was the one that got in trouble when they ranging from 5 to 14 started distracting the driver and I didnt get a seat (:mad: ) anyway one of the teachers decided we had to say all these prayers and there was only one guy older than me and he usually slept most of the way to school so I often got to lead the whole 15 minutes of prayers to start your day including the prayer for the dead as we had to drive past the city of the dead to get to school ( a lovley 40 minute drive ifthe traffic wasnt too bad). There were 2 that protected you from harm as I remember one from earthly physical harm from solid things say insects and rollercoasters and the other was from unseen things. But dont ask which was which as I really never could remeber that.

Mostly I think though that if you belive something will protect you ( and Im talking about unseen dangers) in most cases it will, or rather to cover my bases if you belive something like a ghost or demon can hurt you then it can otherwise it cant.