Art has no Survival Value

[Lote-Tree]

Art has no survival and all art are - as Oscar Wilde wrote - "useless".

So why do we attach so much importance to "useless" things? :-)

What does that say about the nature of humanity?

Regards,
Lote

[manolia]

I don't agree with the statement that art is useless (of course art is useless to the extent that you can't eat it or wear it. It doesn't protect you from the elements of nature or the 'wild' beasts..that is what the quote was about i guess). I can't possibly imagine my life without some forms of art (films is the first that comes to mind and literature the second). Life would be extremely boring and yes "useless" too. I guess all those centuries of evolution and development of the human intelect made human beings difficult to please. They just can't stick to essentials :lol:

[Lote-Tree]

I don't agree with the statement that art is useless (of course art is useless to the extent that you can't eat it or wear it.


Art is Useless. FullStop? :-)



I can't possibly imagine my life without some forms of art (films is the first that comes to mind and literature the second).


But we have survived for thousands of years without these things.

[Stanislaw]

you can burn it, hide under it, protect yourself with it by bludgeoinng others...:D

but really,

art can be emotioanaly sustaining

[Lote-Tree]

you can burn it, hide under it, protect yourself with it by bludgeoinng others...:D


Are the any cases where someone actually killed someone else just by hitting them with a book? :-)



art can be emotioanaly sustaining

If we require art to emotionally sutain us then we are quite inadequate aren't we? :-)

[manolia]

Art is Useless. FullStop? :-)


But we have survived for thousands of years without these things.

Come on Lote. I am sure you understood my point :)

[Moira]

Art has no survival and all art are - as Oscar Wilde wrote - "useless".

So why do we attach so much importance to "useless" things? :-)

What does that say about the nature of humanity?

Regards,
Lote

It depends what each of us needs. If people cannot stick to the essantials only (like Manolia said) maybe they will not regard art as useless, maybe some will even argue it is essential .......

You cannot say ART IS USELESS, fullstop. You can say it is useless for you but do not claim it is a verifiable thing.

[Stanislaw]

Are the any cases where someone actually killed someone else just by hitting them with a book? :-)


well maybe by a sculpture :D



If we require art to emotionally sutain us then we are quite inadequate aren't we? :-)

well, art can be like a boost, man can survive on bread and water...but is he truly full?

[Lote-Tree]

Come on Lote. I am sure you understood my point :)

:-)

Can you not Imagine an Artless Existence Manolia? :-)

[Lote-Tree]

well maybe by a sculpture :D


LOL :-)



well, art can be like a boost, man can survive on bread and water...but is he truly full?

Without Art those question will never arise :-)

[Lote-Tree]

It depends what each of us needs. If people cannot stick to the essantials only (like Manolia said) maybe they will not regard art as useless, maybe some will even argue it is essential .......

You cannot say ART IS USELESS, fullstop. You can say it is useless for you but do not claim it is a verifiable thing.

Objectively you can pretty much say it is useless ;-)

Subjectively of course it is different :-)

Appreciation of art is indeed a subjective experience of the individual...creation of art is objectively can be verified...like you can analyse the mathematics of Mozart's symphonies... :-)

[Moira]

Objectively you can pretty much say it is useless ;-)

Subjectively of course it is different :-)

Appreciation of art is indeed a subjective experience of the individual...creation of art is objectively can be objectively verified...like you an analyse the mathematics of Mozart's symphonies... :-)

Thank you for making that distinction.
Wouldn't want to get started on subjective/ objective issue again:p :p :p

Appreciation of art is subjective .......the emotions you feel with respect to a work of art can often be very personal.

But how do we view art objectively? Describing what you see without making judgments.........? Is that accurate?

[JCamilo]

It is not useless and misquoting Wilde (who was an artist, and dedicated a good deal of his own life to art, so we must know how sacarstic he was).

Art is alongside with science the top form of keep and transmit knowledge of humankind - you can not find a single society without art.

You can say something is useless because we "survived" thousand years without it. We survived thousand years without Medicine, without Science and even without alphabet - and they are not useless. So, art can not be useless because some primitive humans groups did not needed it. We are not primitive humans groups.

Art is indeed emotionally sustaining and we are "Inadequate". So We need art to deal with this. Therefore the use of art.

The support given by Art to philosophical changes and even scientific (it is not wonder that the Enlightment, or the Romantic Period in the XIX century; the European Ressurgence in the XIII-XV centuries, the Classical Greek period, etc are all boostered by art. To change the way to view something you do not a discipline that works with different views and that is Art.

Plus, it is fun. We do need fun.

[Moira]

Well, he also said:

'It is through art, and through art only, that we can realize our perfection; through art and art only that we can shield ourselves from the sordid perils of actual existence.'

[Lote-Tree]

so we must know how sacarstic he was).


Aye ;-)



Art is alongside with science the top form of keep and transmit knowledge of humankind - you can not find a single society without art.


So what does that tell us about humanity?

That we admire useless things so intensly :-)



We survived thousand years without Medicine...


That is different. Medicince is not an Experience.



Art is indeed emotionally sustaining and we are "Inadequate".


Then it is about time that we overcome our Inadequacies? :-)
or perhaps Art indeed the creator of inadequacies in the first place because it reaches for ideals that we can never fulfill?



Plus, it is fun. We do need fun.

You can have fun with Sex or playing squash :-)

[Stanislaw]

LOL :-)



Without Art those question will never arise :-)


art is in the eye of the beholder, what I may consider art...you may consider mowing the lawn, it all depends upon personal interpretation, and what emotional value I place on what I see... :)

[Virgil]

If art has no survival value why is that all cultures have some form of art? Even primitive peoples have dances and chants and pretty artifacts. Art on one level is the glue that holds a culture together. It binds people. Otherwise we fragment into all sorts of groups, into smaller, weaker entities, and may even fight and kill each other. Art does have survival value.

[Lote-Tree]

art is in the eye of the beholder, what I may consider art...you may consider mowing the lawn, it all depends upon personal interpretation, and what emotional value I place on what I see... :)

Then that would mean whatever you do is art - even going to the loo :-)

[motherhubbard]

How can you say that art has no survival value when much of it has survived for centuries. Cavemen painted pictures on the inside of their caves. Art is essential for the preservation of history, linking one generation to the next, communicating a message that stirs deep emotions.

Are you saying that it does not help us survive on a day to day basis? This is also not true. People are driven to self expression or to capture some part of their lives that have significant meaning. Many artist feel compelled to create or capture just as they are compelled to eat and sleep. It is essential to their survival because they are so directed by this unseen force.

As far as art being in the eye of the beholder and therefore going to the loo could be considered art, one must consider our language. I find that the English language is completely inadequate about many very important things. I say that I love little green toads and I also say that I love my children. The two are not comparable, and yet there is the same word. The same is true with art. I like to say that we have art and art and art and art.

[Lote-Tree]

Many artist feel compelled to create or capture just as they are compelled to eat and sleep.


There is a difference between compelled to eat and creating art? Eating is a necessity - art is not?

[motherhubbard]

I think the artist feel differently.

Art can be an obsession. The painter must paint, the poet must write, and the dancer must dance in order to survive. It is the sum of their existence. While some might live without ever expressing themselves or creating something beautiful, an artist would eventually cease to exist to their fullest until there was no existence at all.

[Lote-Tree]

I think the artist feel differently.

Art can be an obsession. The painter must paint, the poet must write, and the dancer must dance in order to survive. It is the sum of their existence. While some might live without ever expressing themselves or creating something beautiful, an artist would eventually cease to exist to their fullest until there was no existence at all.

Have we ever experienced "famine" where millions died of "art starvation"?

[Stanislaw]

Then that would mean whatever you do is art - even going to the loo :-)

well, possibly, if for you, using the loo is what you consider a media of creative outlet... *get it...outlet... :sick: :D *


Have we ever experienced "famine" where millions died of "art starvation"?

well...there are all those dead dinosaurs.... :lol:

[motherhubbard]

Unless someone possessed the ability to express the extreme famine found in the world, through photographs, paintings, and prose how would others be made aware of the problem. Art brings a face to the plight of the needy and stirs the emotion necessary to make a difference. How would this memory be kept for the future. Saying art is not necessary is like saying love is not needed to survive. While some may go for a while without love or loveliness or expression it would be a very different kind of existence. Art aids in making the most of life.

[Lote-Tree]

well, possibly, if for you, using the loo is what you consider a media of creative outlet... *get it...outlet... :sick: :D *


LOL :-)



well...there are all those dead dinosaurs.... :lol:

LOL :-) or perhaps they commited suicide in despair of having to create Useless Art to overcome their inadequacies :-)

[Lote-Tree]

Saying art is not necessary is like saying love is not needed to survive.


It is not if you see it in the context of biology. Only reproduction suffices.

Love is indeed just a feeling...slowly fading away...

Love in the context of Everday Usage between Man and Women - no you need don't need it at all. We can be completely happy without it. We were completely happy before we encountered it. It is the love thing that destroys marriages and friendships. It is the love thing that comes between friendship between man and women. Love is dangerous. Love is Evil ;-)



While some may go for a while without love or loveliness or expression it would be a very different kind of existence.


It would be a childlike existence. Carefree. Running like antelopes in the lush green hillsides and catching butterflies with joy and swimming with fishes in the ponds and dancing to the thunderbeats of monsoon rains...

[Bakiryu]

It would be a painful experiance. Life without love is the worse thing a human being can experience.

[manolia]

:-)

Can you not Imagine an Artless Existence Manolia? :-)

I can (i have a vast imagination :D ) but like i said before it would be boring ;)

[motherhubbard]

Have we ever experienced "famine" where millions died of "art starvation"?


It is not if you see it in the context of biology. Only reproduction suffices.

Love is indeed just a feeling...slowly fading away...

Love in the context of Everday Usage between Man and Women - no you need don't need it at all. We can be completely happy without it. We were completely happy before we encountered it. It is the love thing that destroys marriages and friendships. It is the love thing that comes between friendship between man and women. Love is dangerous. Love is Evil ;-)

It would be a childlike existence. Carefree. Running like antelopes in the lush green hillsides and catching butterflies with joy and swimming with fishes in the ponds and dancing to the thunderbeats of monsoon rains...

Do you know any children? Childhood is much much more than running and playing. Children love to create and express themselves and be understood. You should see my walls and fridge! No one is happy stifled in ignorance. Learning is a joyful experience.

If love were unnecessary than single people would have the same life expectancy as married people. Years ago new parents in America were told that if they held their children they would spoil them. Parents held their babies to feed them and let them cry in their cribs to learn independence. The infant mortality rate skyrocketed. Love in very necessary. People are more than biology. True love is unending.

I think you love being the devils advocate!

[Lote-Tree]

Do you know any children?


Yes. I am a child or child-like or I have a child like a wonder at the world.



Childhood is much much more than running and playing.


"Childhood" as we know it - is a modern invention. "Primitive" societies do not have such notions.



Children love to create and express themselves and be understood.


Children learn not by expresson but by imitation of grown ups.



Learning is a joyful experience.


So is playing. Have you ever played in the warm monsoon rain? or dived into the pond while rain crashed above you? Learning in the context of schooling is mind numbing :-)



If love were unnecessary than single people would have the same life expectancy as married people.


Marriage reduces life expectancy. Marriage is the main cause of white hairs and divorce.



Years ago new parents in America were told that if they held their children they would spoil them.


Love of children is genetics. I was talking about Man and women love.



People are more than biology. True love is unending.


We are exceptional Animal no doubt.

As for True love - there is no such thing between man and women. It is this "true" thing that is the cause of problems between man and women. We can be completely happy without using the "true" bit.



I think you love being the devils advocate!

LOL :-)

Only in the interest of furthering the debate ;-) :-)

Peace to you.

Regards,
Lote

[motherhubbard]

lote -

In your childlike nature are you also responsible for your own survival? Do you pay the bills, prepare meals, take medication, and dress yourself? Children must be educated or they will lack the ability to survive. While I agree that a classroom is not always the most stimulating place, it certainly can be when everyone contributes. Even primitive societies taught their young what berries to avoid. Children learn so much from the adults and others around, but they also learn through self expression. This is a fact. You insinuate yourself that there is much to be learned through play.

Marriage doesn’t reduce life expectancy. Check the stats. I agree that love for a child is biological, but my point was that children as well as all people need love. Love between a man and woman is as perfect as the people involved are willing to allow. The main cause for divorce comes from couples failing to serve each other and put the needs of the other first. Totally off topic.

peace to you as well

MH

[andave_ya]

I argue that art is a necessity.


But how do we view art objectively? Describing what you see without making judgments.........? Is that accurate?

Formal analysis. Analyzing the principles and elements of design in a piece without trying to say what the painting means. There are three elements to a formal analysis: context (the history or story or event that led to the creating of the piece) form (pulling out elements and principles of design and explaining what each one does) and then there is content (what the painting means, and this is where art is viewed subjectively).


Have we ever experienced "famine" where millions died of "art starvation"?

You can't starve physically from a lack of art but you can starve emotionally. Take a look at Communist oppression. Only Communist propaganda is allowed as reading material. With that everyone became mentally dead. Anything Big Brother wants, Big Brother gets. Whereas here in the States, reading material is uncensored and look at the diversity of thought we have here!


It would be a childlike existence. Carefree. Running like antelopes in the lush green hillsides and catching butterflies with joy and swimming with fishes in the ponds and dancing to the thunderbeats of monsoon rains...

Would you be happy with that, Lote? From what I've read in your threads, you are a very deep sort of person with a very complex and interesting way of thinking. For me, I hate running. Even in lush green hillsides. I can't catch butterflies because they are much too fast for me. I can't swim very well and singing and dancing in the rain would be all very well for about ten minutes. Then I'd start getting afraid I'd catch a cold. And I'd be BORED! After tasting of the joys of art and literature and music, even with my small experience I'd never want to lose art.
Furthermore, that's unrealistic. If we don't have art it doesn't mean we go back to time before technology. We'd still have to have jobs and get money to pay bills and get food. We'd have work to do with no chance of recreation. I seriously don't think I'd be a nice person to know if that was the case. ::(


Love in the context of Everday Usage between Man and Women - no you need don't need it at all. We can be completely happy without it. We were completely happy before we encountered it. It is the love thing that destroys marriages and friendships. It is the love thing that comes between friendship between man and women. Love is dangerous. Love is Evil ;-)

What would you say of the love Christ has for humankind? In the Bible, Christ is considered the Bridegroom and the Church His bride. His love was so immense He DIED for us! Love is most certainly not evil.


Learning is a joyful experience.

So is playing. Have you ever played in the warm monsoon rain? or dived into the pond while rain crashed above you? Learning in the context of schooling is mind numbing :-)


Yes, learning through schooling is difficult and I'd be an idiot to say otherwise but I'm so happy that everyday I am adding to my stock of knowledge through what I learn in my schooling and in my reading and in my experiences with fine art.


Children learn not by expresson but by imitation of grown ups.


How is that? I agree in some ways they do but not a lot of children have parents who are artists. I know a family who has a son who is an painter through and through -- stereotypes and all. But the rest of his family is far from artistic in that way. His dad is an airplane pilot; his mother an English major, and his sister is in college studying, I believe, something to do with fashion. None of his family paints and yet he is a stunning painter.

I firmly believe in the importance of art. Think how very stilted we'd be without it!

[Lote-Tree]

I argue that art is a necessity.


Good on you chap :-)



Would you be happy with that, Lote? From what I've read in your threads, you are a very deep sort of person with a very complex and interesting way of thinking. For me, I hate running. Even in lush green hillsides. I can't catch butterflies because they are much too fast for me. I can't swim very well and singing and dancing in the rain would be all very well for about ten minutes.


I remember a time of Carefree existence. Of no worries. No hassles. My eyes found joy in nature - in the greeness of it all; and in all the colours of the rainbow strewn so joyously in lush fields and trees that touched the sky. We swam in the waters after the warm summer rains, we climbed, we dived for pearls, we fished with hooks. Our play was everything, our games was everything. These happy games, these blissful games - it was everything. In the evening we sat on benches and in the moonlight we counted the stars in the night's sky. We slept a full sleep - ready for another days of playing. There was no Art then, no philosophy - just a carefree existence. Then came school and education and all our joys was systematically removed with knowledge and the Why questions... :-(



After tasting of the joys of art and literature and music, even with my small experience I'd never want to lose art.


But the contention is you can survive still without Art :-)



If we don't have art it doesn't mean we go back to time before technology.


Not really. Instead of Art I think we would have found something else to occupy us :-)



We'd still have to have jobs and get money to pay bills and get food. We'd have work to do with no chance of recreation. I seriously don't think I'd be a nice person to know if that was the case. ::(


Yes. These things. World of Adulthood is a world of responsibility.



What would you say of the love Christ has for humankind? In the Bible, Christ is considered the Bridegroom and the Church His bride. His love was so immense He DIED for us! Love is most certainly not evil.


In my post I said Everyday use of the word "love" between man and women is the cause of problems between man and women. It is the cause of divorce and loss of friendship :-)

But Love as a concept is not Evil :-)



Last edited by andave_ya : Today at 11:48 AM. Reason: too harsh :blush:


Harsh? LOL :-) It was not ;-)
Argue with Passion ;-)



Even primitive societies taught their young what berries to avoid.


Yes. But I was saying that concept of "Childhood" is a modern invention.



Marriage doesn’t reduce life expectancy. Check the stats.


http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/2007-04-11-being-single_N.htm



Love between a man and woman is as perfect as the people involved are willing to allow. The main cause for divorce comes from couples failing to serve each other and put the needs of the other first. Totally off topic.


I still struggle with the concept of love Motherhubbard. I reach out with my soul and grasp only the nothingness of it all. But that does not stop me trying. "Love is just a feeling" wrote the recent Rock Band "Darkness" (I know rock bands are not the bastion of Intellectualism!!)...love is just a feeling...and what a feeling it is too!!!...and I would do anything for love - go to hell and back...and yet love is just a feeling...an attachment behaviour...in time fades away..."I can't take my eyes off you...until I meet someone new..."...

[motherhubbard]

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_4_why_marriage_is.html

http://www.hon.ch/News/HSN/534294.html

Love is more than a feeling. Love is a choice and a way of life and it is action. Love between a man and a woman is one of the most wonderful experiences to be had. I do not mean some twentieth century idea of how love can serve me, what do I stand to gain from this, is there someone better. I mean a sustaining process of giving all that you have and receiving all that can be given. Love is not about what feels good to you but more about what can you do for another.

Maybe there is an art to love that people need to learn in order to survive

[kiobe]

:-)

Can you not Imagine an Artless Existence Manolia? :-)

I can.

[kiobe]

I can.

Art is necessary for self expression. The monitary value of artwork is based on supply, demand and the illusion of inflation.

[a.r.harris]

Somebody once said (probably in this thread) ars longa vita brevis. Also, just because art is useless, it does not necessarily follow that art does not survive.

[Scheherazade]

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