the trinity

[stephofthenight]

ok, so the trenity is the father, son and holy ghost. but how can he be all 3? or is that what it means?

[hyperborean]

God exists through these three things. He is the spirit that lives in everyone of us (holy spirit) and Jesus is his physical manifestation.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

Use your imagination

[stephofthenight]

use my imagination...god will end up being a penguin with a mohauk!!! lol, im a very twisted kid. never tell a teenager to use her imanation...isnt that against school and church rules? not to mention present day suciety, thats up there with being yourself...scary

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

use my imagination...god will end up being a penguin with a mohauk!!! lol, im a very twisted kid. never tell a teenager to use her imanation...isnt that against school and church rules? not to mention present day suciety, thats up there with being yourself...scary

Scary is right..............

[stephofthenight]

yes, its true. society is trying to brainwash children for fear of rejection and replacement. they are taking extracriculare activitys, disencouraging creative wrigting and forcing us to live in the pst. how many times must one go over the holauchost. we get the point he killed 3million people. but its forced down our throats. black history month, hello in our school we have 3 black kids, yet if we even tried to have a white history DAy much less a month we are worthless racist pigs! ENOGH! if your mexican, cross legaly and learn ENGLISH!!! if your black, live life your way but stop expecting everything to be given to you! if you are JEWISH yes i feel bad for what happend to those people then, but get over it and move on insted of living off others by saying racist, god. i mean holy **** guys. im so tired of it, i may be 15 but the things ive seen, known, and had to take part in. america was founded on god, and when we took god out of our schools, they went to ****. ! get use to it people look where you lazy pigs have gotten us! you want to use what has nothing to do with you to get everything handed to you, why cant we respect one another, have a white history day, a group like the naacp for whites, why not a colledge fund for white, no we cant be proud of ourselfs, we have to act ashamed of who and what we are or were racist. if we keep living in our past, then we have no future.
but then again what do i know, im just a kid. thereforth my opinion doesnt matter.

[stephofthenight]

i just read over my post and it comes over a bit strong, i have no issue with other races, its just i dont like when people use what happend to there greaet great great great great great grandparents granpatens great grandparents to get everything handed to them. i just wish people would wake up in reality and try and better themselfs but why should we when we can just have it handed to us. im tired of everytime i do something that makes me proud to be white, or an aryan that im racist all of a sudden. suthren pride, and the rebal flag it doesnt mean u hate blacks, it means your proud to live in the south, now it means that your a rebal. hello black people where jewlrey with it, but if i where a shirt saying southern pride im racist. my bad. my apolgies if i offended anyone. not intenional and no hate ment
steph

[thuraiya]

it is one of confusing issues in what the christians believe .. in my religion " islam :-
ALLAH is one..
nobody is like him and he is like no-one..it is a very clear belief..
when i say that i do not want from you 2 believe what i believe but 2 look for the fact from other side .. ) ^^ and do not put urself in a circle ..

[Bakiryu]

That is very confusing indeed, In MY religion the GODDESS is The Mother, The Maiden and The Crone, that I can understand. You christians confuse me (no offense intended).

[_Shannon_]

There is a reason that the Trinity is referred to as a mystery. :) Not that one can never make headway in understanding it- but rather that one could think about it throught an entire lifetime and there were still be more to know.

There is one God or 'subtance', in three Persons or 'aspects'. A very imperfect example is that of an apple- there is one apple- it has core, flesh, and peel-- each part is separate, but is still totally apple. The core is apple, the flesh is apple, the peel is apple--they are three distinct aspects of the apple- yet still only are one apple.

[Pendragon]

This may get me in hot water with some people, but it is rather simple. God is omnipresent, meaning He can be anywhere and everywhere at once. Now in the Old Testament, it was God Above Us, the Father. Isaiah prophesied that a virgin would conceive and bear a son to be called “Emmanuel”. That means “God With Us.” 1 Timothy 3:16 says “God was manifested in flesh.” That is the Son. Jesus in Hebrew is Yoshua, which means “Yahweh saves”. He said John 14:18, “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.” When He rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven, He returned as the Holy Spirit, now God In Us. Think of an actor playing more than one part in a movie.

God bless.

Pen

[Charles Darnay]

Ya my religion, ...., also contains a trinity: only it's not the Father, Son, Holy Ghost.....it's the Dickens, the Shakespeare and.I can't remember the thrid.


It's not that I don't remember what the thrid one is, it's actually "I can't remember the thrid". Why? I don't know....one of those great mysteries

[wrestle-135]

Very well put I agree with you 100 percent. many people don't understand that God is three different beings and it's hard to get people to see that. God is one,. Thank you very much for seeing that way.

[Redzeppelin]

Trying to figure out the spatial existence of the Trinity is like trying to describe a cube in a 2-dimensional world. Good luck. The closest analogy that I've heard (a common one I'm sure) is the ability of water to exist in three phases at once (fitting, since water is a highly meaningful symbol in Christian theology).

[Pendragon]

I gather, then, Red, you cannot see what I'm saying?

[Bookworm4Him]

It's a very confusing idea, but here is a simple analogy that might help. The Trinity can be compared to an egg. An egg is made of the shell, the white, and the yoke. The shell itself is not the egg, but if you show it to someone, they will tell you that it is part of an egg. Same with the other parts. Seperate, they are things, but they are not complete 'til combined. Likewise with the Trinity. There is God the Father, then there is Jesus, God the Son, then there is the Holy Spirit. Seperate, but together, they make God.

Hope that helps. And as to your little race speech, amen! It is sooo annoying when I get kicked out of something b/c some illegal, or black comes and wants to do the same thing, even if I did better. I have nothing against blacks, or Mexicans, I'm just against PREJIDUCE (sp?) !!!!!!!!! We are trying so hard not to be biast against others, we are being biast against ourselves! I had a friend who got a perfect score on the SAT, didn't miss a single question, and the college they wanted to go to didn't give them their well-earned scholarship b/c they were blond w/ blue eyes!!!!! AHHH!!! Well I gtg. C'ya!

[Redzeppelin]

I gather, then, Red, you cannot see what I'm saying?

Not at all; what you say makes perfect sense to me. I simply believe that God - in His complexity and multi-dimensionality also exists in a way that we cannot (yet) understand Him (limited to 3-4 dimensions as we are). I rather liked your explanation, but I believe that your answer is one part of a multi-faceted answer.

[stephofthenight]

so basicly as we live we dicover peices of the puzzel and as life come to an end we are missing but one peice in the puzzel of understanding god, and when you die that peice fall into place and we understand everything?

[_Shannon_]

so basicly as we live we dicover peices of the puzzel and as life come to an end we are missing but one peice in the puzzel of understanding god, and when you die that peice fall into place and we understand everything?

Sort of...but I think the revelation after death is an ongoing sort of thing and not something I think we can fully understand from the limited way we view things now. Eternity is relational- we are one with the Divine and yet mystically retain our self-hood.

[Pendragon]

It's a very confusing idea, but here is a simple analogy that might help. The Trinity can be compared to an egg. An egg is made of the shell, the white, and the yoke. The shell itself is not the egg, but if you show it to someone, they will tell you that it is part of an egg. Same with the other parts. Seperate, they are things, but they are not complete 'til combined. Likewise with the Trinity. There is God the Father, then there is Jesus, God the Son, then there is the Holy Spirit. Seperate, but together, they make God.

Hope that helps. And as to your little race speech, amen! It is sooo annoying when I get kicked out of something b/c some illegal, or black comes and wants to do the same thing, even if I did better. I have nothing against blacks, or Mexicans, I'm just against PREJIDUCE (sp?) !!!!!!!!! We are trying so hard not to be biast against others, we are being biast against ourselves! I had a friend who got a perfect score on the SAT, didn't miss a single question, and the college they wanted to go to didn't give them their well-earned scholarship b/c they were blond w/ blue eyes!!!!! AHHH!!! Well I gtg. C'ya!May I complement you on your example, mon ami? I have never really heard a better allegory. If you were to practice the art of egg-blowing: (A small hole is made in each end and the contents blown out so the shell remains empty, but basically whole for decorating), anyone seeing the shell would call it an egg. Cooking the insides anyway you want, people still call it an egg. A boiled egg white, minus it’s yoke, would be recognized as a egg. That yellow gooey yolk is called “egg”; it does the most damage when people “egg” your house or car. But they are three distinct parts, all one incredible, edible egg!

[weepingforloman]

use my imagination...god will end up being a penguin with a mohauk!!! lol, im a very twisted kid. never tell a teenager to use her imanation...isnt that against school and church rules? not to mention present day suciety, thats up there with being yourself...scary

I fear your school and/or church...

[Neo_Sephiroth]

There's another simple possible answer, not an analogy. The Father, The Only Begotten Son, and The Holy Ghost are three seperate beings.

[stephofthenight]

you never cease to amaze, or confuse me professior

[togre]

What does the Bible say?

It says the Father is God. He created the heavens and the earth and all that dwell in them. He sustains all creation and provides for the needs of all living things. He is holy and just. He is merciful and compassionate.


It says that Jesus Christ is God. He is all-powerful, existed even before creation, is holy and is untied with the Father. He was conceived, born, grew, preached, lived perfectly, suffered and died. He was raised again and now lives and rules over all things.

It says that the Holy Spirit is God. He is all-knowing. He creates faith in the hearts of those who hear God's promises.

It says that these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not the same, or parts of each other. (This isn't one God who is putting on a mask, like your father dressing up as Santa or an actor playing three parts in a play)

However, it says very clearly that there is only one God ("Hear, oh Israel, the LORD, your God, the LORD is one") It says that Father and Son and Holy Spirit are united and connected and one.

That's what the Bible says. Then I ask myself, "How can this be?" Father=God
Son=God
Holy Spirit=God

but Father does not = Son does not = Holy Spirit

and yet only 1 God.

That's a mystery. We give it a label--the teaching of the Trinity, but that doesn't mean we understand it.

Does it really surprise me, though, that God is difficult for me to understand. I mean, He's GOD. I'm a human. It's only by him telling me that I know what I do know.

Finally, the egg and the water ( and other analogies) have been used by people far wiser than I am over the centuries to explain and understand this. Yet every analogy has a weakness. The yoke isn't the entire egg, yet the Father is completely and entirely God. Water has three phases, but God doesn't change from Father to Son to Spirit. Once again, I'm humbled, but not surprised that completely understanding God is beyond my ability.

[ampoule]

I attended Baptist churches as a child and it seemed to me they were always saying...we'll understand it all by and by. I grew up feeling that was kind of a cop out. It's just a way of explaining the mystery, to calm us, to soothe us, and some would say, to shut us up. :D But I DO love a good mystery.
There is a song...Farther Along by Brad Paisley

Tempted and tried, we're oft made to wonder
Why it should be thus all the day long
While there are others living about us
Never molested, though in the wrong.

Farther along we'll know all about it
Farther along we'll understand why
Cheer up my brother, live in the sunshine
We'll understand it all by and by.

When death has come and taken our loved ones
It leaves our home lonely and drear
And then do we wonder why others prosper
Living so wicked year after year

When we see Jesus coming in glory
When he comes down from his home in the sky
Then we shall meet him in that bright mansion
We'll understand it all by and by.


The Trinity comment..another mysterious thing. I like the egg analogy also.
I have also heard it explained with water as someone mentioned but as water, ice and steam.


And Steph....I am not even close to your age and I understand your concern of the racial prejudices because it is in my generation also and I think many in between. I think someone somewhere thought that political correctness would truly bring our young people into a closer world of being one family, that they would be able to live side by side. We can't even live in the same room with our brothers and sisters! But it is a worthy goal? You have interesting thoughts.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

you never cease to amaze, or confuse me professior

Well, that's what I'm here for.:lol:

[Neo_Sephiroth]

But, seriously, it is my belief that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost is three seperate beings.

Genesis 3:22
"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:"

But, I agree that it can be confusing, the concept of the Trinity, I mean.

One must not rely on man's knowledge alone in reading the bible but let the Holy Spirit guide you, in doing that, one can hope to understand the scriptures.

[Visionary3]

.
but then again what do i know, im just a kid. thereforth my opinion doesnt matter.[/QUOTE]

I can tell you feel very strongly about a lot of issues. It is always difficult when one is young to not have the power to change things. Even if your opinions are not acted upon by others, your opinions and observations are important. And there are others out there that would agree with you.

I may not have the same issues as you but I get very disturbed over the immigration issues, animal rights, global warming not being taken seriously enough to create action so the future generations will have a better chance. Sometimes I get so angry I shake inside.

Getting back to the topic, I was told the Trinity was like a three leaf clover.

We have all come to the right place.
We all sit in God's classroom
Now,
The only thing left for us to do, my dear,
Is to stop
Throwing spitballs for a while.

By Hafiz

[bibliophile190]

It is rather confusing, but I just decide not to worry about it. God is beyond us, so we'll never really understand it all. I know that doesn't really answer your question. I'm just saying, don't worry about it.

[PrinceMyshkin]

It is rather confusing, but I just decide not to worry about it. God is beyond us, so we'll never really understand it all. I know that doesn't really answer your question. I'm just saying, don't worry about it.

The trouble is that if God is beyond us he is and was beyond all the writers of the Scriptures, all the priests and theologians who interpret the scriptures and all the priests and theologians who interpreted what all the previous priests and theologians believed or invented.

Where in Scripture is the origin or proclamation of the trinity, which, twist it as you may, sounds like a return to plytheism?

[MaryLupin]

Where in Scripture is the origin or proclamation of the trinity, which, twist it as you may, sounds like a return to polytheism?

Actually, I think we are essentially incapable of leaving polytheism. I mean what else is the constant battle between JWHW, Allah and Jehovah but another kind of trinity.

(Have you read Karen Armstrong's book A History of God?)

[PrinceMyshkin]

Actually, I think we are essentially incapable of leaving polytheism. I mean what else is the constant battle between JWHW, Allah and Jehovah but another kind of trinity.

(Have you read Karen Armstrong's book A History of God?)

Yes. Excellent book.

I'm not sure, however, how there can be a battle between JWHW and Jehovah, however, since the latter name is the misguided attempt to pronounce what is intended as the unpronounceable (in Hebrew) JWHW (God's name being forbidden to us) and which a Jewish child, reading scripture, would reflexly pronounce as "Adonai" (My Lord).

[MaryLupin]

Yes. Excellent book.

I'm not sure, however, how there can be a battle between JWHW and Jehovah, however, since the latter name is the misguided attempt to pronounce what is intended as the unpronounceable (in Hebrew) JWHW (God's name being forbidden to us) and which a Jewish child, reading scripture, would reflexly pronounce as "Adonai" (My Lord).

What I was thinking of was a woman I once liked who came to visit me in my home to try (as it turned) out to bring my children out of my evil (she saw Dianne Luhrmann's anthropological study of witchcraft in my living room) and into the "arms of Jehovah." She was, of course, a JW. The sometimes radical difference between this god and the god that might send his emissary to sit at his prepared place at the dinner table makes me feel as if they are either two separate beings or that there is one dude with a multiple personality disorder. Not sure which.

And the battles between various personalities of this big Judeo-Christian-Islamic head guy...makes me think of that movie Fight Club and the main character smacking himself around.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I have my own JW story. The doorbell rang. When I answered I saw two middle-aged women with pamphlets tucked under their arms. Now it has always been my policy to be courteous with proselytizers who come to my door but on this occasion I was very busy so I decided to take the initiative.

"Are you from the Witnesses of Jehovah?" I asked. Smiling, they nodded. "Thank you for coming by, but I'm following my own path." (I assure you I had never used the word "path" in that metaphoric way, nor would I have chosen to but for the dire circumstance.)

This did not deter them.

"Yes, but are you happy?" one of them asked.

In for a penny, in for a pound: "Yes!" I said, with the closest thing I could manage to a smile of ecstasy.

They turned and left.

[motherhubbard]

This makes me think of a story I have about a couple of Mormons, and of course I must say that I do not believe that everyone from every religion is like this. I believe that most people are at least trying.

I was working the midnight shift at the local police dept. and had just started seeing my husband maybe a week earlier. These two young men showed up at my door and I just assumed there was some kind of emergency or no one would come to my door. So when I got up out of my sleep to answer I was so taken back that I actually gave out my phone number. This was in no way a common practice and the number was unlisted. Shortly after that I started receiving obscene phone calls from someone who knew my name. You could hear what was going on on his end of the line, it was awful. There was some concern that it might be my husband, but a tap on the line showed that the calls were coming from inside of their church building.

Sorry, I know that was totally off topic.

[Annabel Lee]

This is actually a simple doctrine to understand. I don't know why every one wants to make it more complex than what it is. I believe that there is a Father and a Son. Even though throughout the Bible they share the same name, it does not mean that they are the same person. A son in this natural world may share the name of his father but it doesn't mean that they are the same person. God the Father sent His only begotten Son into this world to be a living sacrifice, that we might be saved. And as for the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, it is merely a gift from God. Actually, the words spirit and ghost are translated from the same word from which we translate breath, wind, and air. Any time the Bible talks about the Breath of God, or like in Acts where it talks about a rushing mighty wind, the Bible is talking about the same things. Think of a man doing CPR, he breathes his breath into someone else so that they might live. But the man doing the CPR does not actually enter the other person's body, only his breath does. So I believe there is a Father, a Son (two separate people), and the Spirit of God. I also believe that everything in the Bible is understandable. 1st Corinthians 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God (or the things that God reveals to us through His spirit) for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them (the things of God), because they are spiritually discerned." Something that one has to remember when trying to understand the Bible is that it explains itself. But you have to know where to look for your answers. We have a saying in our church "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed." You can't understand one without the other. God would not write a love letter such as this that we could not understand. To those that truly want to know Him, He WILL reveal himself.

[stephofthenight]

This is actually a simple doctrine to understand. I don't know why every one wants to make it more complex than what it is. I believe that there is a Father and a Son. Even though throughout the Bible they share the same name, it does not mean that they are the same person. A son in this natural world may share the name of his father but it doesn't mean that they are the same person. God the Father sent His only begotten Son into this world to be a living sacrifice, that we might be saved. And as for the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit, it is merely a gift from God. Actually, the words spirit and ghost are translated from the same word from which we translate breath, wind, and air. Any time the Bible talks about the Breath of God, or like in Acts where it talks about a rushing mighty wind, the Bible is talking about the same things. Think of a man doing CPR, he breathes his breath into someone else so that they might live. But the man doing the CPR does not actually enter the other person's body, only his breath does. So I believe there is a Father, a Son (two separate people), and the Spirit of God. I also believe that everything in the Bible is

understandable. 1st Corinthians 2:14 says "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God (or the things that God reveals to us through His spirit) for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them (the things of God), because they are spiritually discerned." Something that one has to remember when trying to understand the Bible is that it explains itself. But you have to know where to look for your answers. We have a saying in our church "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed." You can't understand one without the other. God would not write a love letter such as this that we could not understand. To those that truly want to know Him, He WILL reveal himself.




i realy like this explination...thank you it makes a lot of sence
steph

[Annabel Lee]

no problem, I'm glad I was able to help.

[weepingforloman]

The trouble is that if God is beyond us he is and was beyond all the writers of the Scriptures, all the priests and theologians who interpret the scriptures and all the priests and theologians who interpreted what all the previous priests and theologians believed or invented.

Where in Scripture is the origin or proclamation of the trinity, which, twist it as you may, sounds like a return to plytheism?

John Ch. 1. "In the beginning was the word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Later in the chapter "The Word became flesh."

[weepingforloman]

Later still, in a different part, Jesus promises that He will send "another," from both Himself and from His Father. That is the Spirit. The actions and power of the Spirit make it clear that it, too, is God. In other places, Christ maintains that He is not the Father, but "one sent from the Father." However, He says "Whoever has seen me, has seen the Father." That, plus the discourse of John on the Word, make it clear that Christ, too, is God.

[Annabel Lee]

Of course the spirit is God. You have a spirit don't you? The only difference is that God has the ability to send His spirit throughout the earth. When Jesus was crucified he made it possible for any one to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is why a lot of people from the Old Testament resurrected when he died, because they had not received it yet.

And, weepingforloman, as an answer to your question "where IN SCRIPTURE, is the origin or proclamation of the trinity?" That's the point, its not in scripture. However, in I John 5:7 it says "and these three are one". But here's the catch, that phrase was not in the original Bible text. When Desiderius Erasmus translated the Bible (one of the many translators), he was ORDERED by the Pope to add that in. Probably because he, (the Pope), KNEW that his belief had no Biblical support.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Later still, in a different part, Jesus promises that He will send "another," from both Himself and from His Father. That is the Spirit. The actions and power of the Spirit make it clear that it, too, is God. In other places, Christ maintains that He is not the Father, but "one sent from the Father." However, He says "Whoever has seen me, has seen the Father." That, plus the discourse of John on the Word, make it clear that Christ, too, is God.

But does it never strain your credulity that this is seemingly self contradictory? According to your explanation "Christ maintains that He is not the Father, but 'one sent from the Father,'" but then it turns out he IS God, i.e., the father.

And Christ did say: "Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay..."

It reads more like a pretzel than the luminous, self-evident truth one might expect from a divinity.

[chaplin]

But does it never strain your credulity that this is seemingly self contradictory?
It reads more like a pretzel than the luminous, self-evident truth one might expect from a divinity.

Quite true. Every issue and point is solved in this concept if each member of the Godhead is their own separate, distinct being. The only time you run into contradictory or seemingly contradictory statements is when you're trying to dissect the much too complex theory of the Trinity.

[weepingforloman]

But does it never strain your credulity that this is seemingly self contradictory? According to your explanation "Christ maintains that He is not the Father, but 'one sent from the Father,'" but then it turns out he IS God, i.e., the father.

And Christ did say: "Let your yea be yea and your nay be nay..."

It reads more like a pretzel than the luminous, self-evident truth one might expect from a divinity.
Slightly incorrect. Christ was God, but not God the Father. They are yet distinct. This is, as I have mentioned before, a mystery- incomprehensible (in its entirety) to the human mind. We take it on faith, or not at all.


Quite true. Every issue and point is solved in this concept if each member of the Godhead is their own separate, distinct being. The only time you run into contradictory or seemingly contradictory statements is when you're trying to dissect the much too complex theory of the Trinity.
Seemingly contradictory is not contradictory. After all, we see beings that are not even one person (the animals, plants, unicellular organisms, etc.), so I don't see why it should be necessarily impossible to find multi-personal beings.

[chaplin]

Seemingly contradictory is not contradictory.

I'll strike "seemingly" contradictory then because I really only meant fully contradictory.

[weepingforloman]

Very well. But I would dispute you on that point.