Can a Christian be a Buddhist? Vice-versa?

[BienvenuJDC]

Can a Christian be a buddhist? No Way in hell. That's an abomination to Christian thought

The implication of this post is that Buddhism is anathema to Christianity - the use of the word hell is significant in suggesting the outcome and I think abomination is a word that could be applied to war crimes, serial killing - things like that, but not to Buddhism. Emphatic? What about definately not?

Why shouldn't I be allowed to say that by no means can someone be a Christian and a Buddhist?

I thought we were talking about Shadowscool? If you read previous posts from ages ago, you'd see that I agree with that. I take issue with the way it was said.

I get sick of the over use of the word tolerance, which to some people means...you can't voice your opinion.

I'm really not sure who or what you're beefing about with intolerance. Cool's attitude to me suggests an attitude intolerant to Buddhism. I'm not even sure why you decided to wade in.

Trying to combine any other religion with Christianity is an anathema. It seems that you are arguing over a definition of terms. Although I would choose another wording (as I did), I'm not going to jump all over another for what I consider rather tame language (in comparison to language that I've seen from others). As far as using the word 'abomination', it is used in the Scriptures to show that something is defiling another. Combining Buddhism with Christianity defiles the main point of Christianity, which is redemption. I don't see where Shadows was being intolerant. However, it seems that the "Toleration Card" was pulled on him. THAT is what I get sick of.

[JamCrackers]

Christianity has been falling off a cliff for a long time. These days, it is hard to even find one who didn't convert to Judaism. They spend most their days praising their Pharisee leaders and worship of Israel. Many PROUDLY deny Christ on a trip to Israel to prove their faith. As a rule, when you meet a Christian whose knowledge on the topic is what they teach to 6-9 year old kids in Sunday school... well there it is. They have the barest child-version understanding. Religion is like this: There is a bronze statue of Pythagoras. Most his followers polish the statue and put flowers on it. Other followers have clubs and they beat people who laugh at the statue. Other followers scream at people to believe Pythagoras was real and a real man inspired the statue. His one and only TRUE STUDENT studied and mastered geometry, did his geometry homework, then left to learn his trigonometry. The true student never cared less if Pythagoras was real or not. He was too busy learning geometry. The ghost of Pythagoras smiled upon his one and only student, the one who understood, the one who learned the geometry. Do yourself a favor, avoid his followers - they are not nice people and they are not wise and they care NOTHING for Pythagoras. They wanted to be seen in public as his loudest club wielding flower dresser.

[ShadowsCool]

Christianity has been falling off a cliff for a long time.

What cliff are you supposing Christianity is falling off? I disagree vehemently with that assumption. Christianity is just not understood by many who talk about it.

[Paulclem]

:biggrin5: I respect your point of view.

[JamCrackers]

The cliff of compassion and wisdom. Fallen so low, his few remaining followers struggle and fail to get people to stop dropping bombs on women and children in his name. America TORTURES. America has no Christian monuments on public land. Only Jewish monuments go on public land, like the 50 foot high candlestick on the White House lawn. Attendance at church is very low. There is a TV show called Christian *****ES. The EU recently said you don't even have the right to wear a cross to work. And I noticed you deliberately avoided the part of studying the TORAH Old Testament. Torah is Judaism. Christianity is New Testament. This is where the failed Christians defend the glory of Pharisee and explain how Jesus wants us to practice the murderous slavery hate of the Old Testament.

[ShadowsCool]

And I noticed you deliberately avoided the part of studying the TORAH Old Testament. Torah is Judaism. Christianity is New Testament. This is where the failed Christians defend the glory of Pharisee and explain how Jesus wants us to practice the murderous slavery hate of the Old Testament.

Oh boy, you generalize everything, don't you? America Tortures? Come on man, you gonna lump all of us Americans and say we torture? Please.

You obviously haven't figured out the Bible yet. Christianity is the Old Testament that was fulfilled in the New Testament.

Obviously you fail to understand.

[ShadowsCool]

:biggrin5: I respect your point of view.

I respect you too.

[The Comedian]

That's your opinion. You make it antagonistic by labeling it that way. It's simply my answer. To me that's loving another God. In my religion that is an abomination. All religions basically teach people to be good, moral, whatever. But there are no good people, are there? Who's holy? Who hasn't sinned? You make generalizations about Christianity, but if you really knew about it, you'd know my answer is correct.

Oh, well then I'll just bask in the glow of your wisdom, insight, all-knowing Christianity. Thank you for being a superior Christian than me. I'm sure I'll be well instructed in how to conduct myself based on your responses here. <-- Now that's some antagonism.

[Paulclem]

Trying to combine any other religion with Christianity is an anathema. It seems that you are arguing over a definition of terms. Although I would choose another wording (as I did), I'm not going to jump all over another for what I consider rather tame language (in comparison to language that I've seen from others). As far as using the word 'abomination', it is used in the Scriptures to show that something is defiling another. Combining Buddhism with Christianity defiles the main point of Christianity, which is redemption. I don't see where Shadows was being intolerant. However, it seems that the "Toleration Card" was pulled on him. THAT is what I get sick of.

I agree that there's no point in combining religions. Buddhism and Christianity are very different both in regard to creation, a creator God, afterlife, daily practice etc etc. I've said that lots of times on this thread.

I consider his response then to be intolerant and unnecessary. Abomination and hell are not words i would use to describe another religion. He didn't define abomination in the way you do, and I suspect it was the wider meaning intended.

Anyway - on the general theme we agree.

[ShadowsCool]

Oh, well then I'll just bask in the glow of your wisdom, insight, all-knowing Christianity. Thank you for being a superior Christian than me. I'm sure I'll be well instructed in how to conduct myself based on your responses here. <-- Now that's some antagonism.

Does someone who is wise say to someone who is not, you're wise? No, they don't.

You continue to label me with stereotypical words. But I brush them off.

[The Comedian]

Does someone who is wise say to someone who is not, you're wise? No, they don't.

I guess you're right.


but if you really knew about it, you'd know my answer is correct.

I must be unwise, if you say so.

[BienvenuJDC]

You obviously haven't figured out the Bible yet. Christianity is the Old Testament that was fulfilled in the New Testament.

Obviously you fail to understand.

I totally agree. It was God's plan from the start to send Christ as is seen as early as Genesis 3:15.

[JamCrackers]

Casually debunked crap.
First they argue: The Old Testament (Judaism) still matters to Christians because the New Testament fulfills it. Go ask an atheist to quote HATE FROM THE BIBLE, what will they quote? Passage after passage from the Old Testament, a book of pure hate, murder, war, violence, racism, abuse of women, rape, and assorted vulgar filth.
Second they argue: They love and serve their beloved Pharisee masters. Israel is sacred and holy. Judaism is sacred and holy. Hey wait? Your pals DENY CHRIST, they WIPE with your New Testament. Oh yes, YOU call yourself Judeo Christian. Do your Israeli Pharisee lords call themselves Judeo Christians? (long loud laughter) they would spit in your face over that INSULT. No, they do not. You call yourself a pawn of them. They NEVER call themselves a pawn of you. So, Israel is HERETIC? Yes or No? Enter the lies and babbling. There is no answer to this problem, because it IS A PROBLEM. You can't honestly do both. If Judaism is RIGHT AND PERFECT then Christ is a lie. If Christ is true, they are blasphemer heretics. I do have the answer. The answer is these are fake failed Christians. They deny Christ. They study Torah. They would be Jewish, but they see themselves as a lower race; since they are not BORN RACE chosen, they settle for being Gentile Shabbos Goy. Gentiles in Judaism who do their master's work on sabbath. Their Christianity is as fake as typing G_D. Baseless pop-culture nonsense. Lastly, as a TRUE student of Jesus, I whip money changers and flip their tables. I don't go around groveling and 'tolerating' heretics. I tell you, Get behind me Satan. The entire collective works of Jesus can hardly fill a pamphlet. He did take the specific time to warn us of one thing, those Christians praying loud in public ARE FAKES! One of your cheap hustles I would like to hear though, tell us your laughable lies you made up that lets you not give away all your worldly wealth and possessions so you can wander poor and spread the word, because 'your riches are in heaven'. The fake Christians always have that covered. They are masters of selective following. They magically have reasons to never follow the parts that cost them anything. Real Christians DIE IN TORTURE for their faith. If you are not nailed to a cross, spare me your lies of righteousness. The good ones get KILLED doing it, especially in this evil world we have today.

[ShadowsCool]

Without reading your diatribe, I must say you don't get it. The Jews (Israel) were at one time God's chosen, but not anymore. They forfeited that right when they rejected their Messiah. So He was given onto the gentiles. That all who may believe would be saved. The rest of your rant I need not respond because it is foolish. I don't engage in foolishness.

[JamCrackers]

There is no answer to this problem, because it is a problem. I TOLD YOU, you would not answer. Never waste my time repeating back my own words to me. There is no answer for you to offer. You lost the debate. Case closed.

[ShadowsCool]

I totally agree. It was God's plan from the start to send Christ as is seen as early as Genesis 3:15.

You're so right BienvenuJDC. Hence:

Luke 24:27 "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself"

[ShadowsCool]

There is no answer to this problem, because it is a problem. I TOLD YOU, you would not answer. Never waste my time repeating back my own words to me. There is no answer for you to offer. You lost the debate. Case closed.

Were we debating? Or was I shining light on your darkness?

I'd say the latter.

And don't try to bully me!

[BienvenuJDC]

Without reading your diatribe, I must say you don't get it. The Jews (Israel) were at one time God's chosen, but not anymore. They forfeited that right when they rejected their Messiah. So He was given onto the gentiles. That all who may believe would be saved. The rest of your rant I need not respond because it is foolish. I don't engage in foolishness.

Isaiah 50:1
Thus says the Lord:

“Where is the certificate of your mother’s divorce,
Whom I have put away?
Or which of My creditors is it to whom I have sold you?
For your iniquities you have sold yourselves,
And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.

I believe this is one of the prophecies indicating that the covenant had been broken by Israel. What do you think?

[ShadowsCool]

Isaiah 50:1
Thus says the Lord:

“Where is the certificate of your mother’s divorce,
Whom I have put away?
Or which of My creditors is it to whom I have sold you?
For your iniquities you have sold yourselves,
And for your transgressions your mother has been put away.

I believe this is one of the prophecies indicating that the covenant had been broken by Israel. What do you think?

An earlier and much clearer one is Deuteronomy 31:16
"And the LORD said to Moses: "You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them."

[JCamilo]

You are really arguing jews broken the convenant even before they have build even Jerusalem?

[BienvenuJDC]

You are really arguing jews broken the convenant even before they have build even Jerusalem?

They had already served the golden calf at that point. However, God is saying here that He knew that they would break the covenant.

[JCamilo]

Oh, I am not minding what God intented, specially considering Moses renew the convenant. You just pointed the christian take on Jesus being a renew on the convernant and this time, opening it to the entire world, as the jews broke it for good and he mentions this break is in Moses time?

[ShadowsCool]

Oh, I am not minding what God intented, specially considering Moses renew the convenant. You just pointed the christian take on Jesus being a renew on the convernant and this time, opening it to the entire world, as the jews broke it for good and he mentions this break is in Moses time?

Old covenant laid to waste:

Hosea 1:2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD."

Prophecy of the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31-34 “The time is coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The New Covenant:

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

[JCamilo]

Oh, good, so you have agreed that claimming God was breaking the convenant with Moses was rather a bad example and you can give now some examples of christian appropriation of jewish texts as if they ceased to pratice and write holy books after first century.

[ShadowsCool]

Oh, good, so you have agreed that claimming God was breaking the convenant with Moses was rather a bad example and you can give now some examples of christian appropriation of jewish texts as if they ceased to pratice and write holy books after first century.

What do you mean? Just don't get your answer. As if you speak another language. You wanna spell it out?

[BienvenuJDC]

Oh, good, so you have agreed that claimming God was breaking the convenant with Moses was rather a bad example and you can give now some examples of christian appropriation of jewish texts as if they ceased to pratice and write holy books after first century.

I'm with Shadows on this one...what are you trying to say?

[Darcy88]

Everyone just ignores my post even though I was a Zen Buddhist for several years and am now seriously deep into Christianity. Right on. lol. Good discussion regardless. Cheers brainy peeps.

[BienvenuJDC]

Everyone just ignores my post even though I was a Zen Buddhist for several years and am now seriously deep into Christianity. Right on. lol. Good discussion regardless. Cheers brainy peeps.

Look....Darcy is here.....when did you show up?

[JCamilo]

I'm with Shadows on this one...what are you trying to say?

Nah, sorry. His problem is not how a text is writen. A guy who uses a dialogue between God and Moses as an evidence of God breaking the convenant with the Hebrews is just someone who is not exactly understanding well the story.

[ShadowsCool]

Nah, sorry. His problem is not how a text is writen. A guy who uses a dialogue between God and Moses as an evidence of God breaking the convenant with the Hebrews is just someone who is not exactly understanding well the story.

"His" problem is you speak in a "cryptic" language that "He" don't fancy.

Are you telling me that a new Convenant was not formed by God?

And since anybody with a brain in their head would say: yes is the answer.

Then, in order to have something "new", it had to replace something "old", no?

I can pull verse, out of verse, out of verse, to prove the accuracy of my point. And the fact
that the Messiah was foretold, a long time ago, like in Genesis. Which was fulfilled, of course, in
the "Christian Folly Books" LOL

I'm assuming you're one of those anti-Christians?

[JCamilo]

People with no brain? And you really have gutts to accuse non christians to just accept watever non sense you copy and paste from others? Put yourself in your place and respect others, because that is what Jesus taught.

[JamCrackers]

Truth is: the 'Western atheist' IS CHRISTIAN. Problem with being an atheist: you don't believe in magic. So, the term SUPER NATURAL does not exist in atheism. You, me, humans - have behaviors. We have a religion behavior. Is YOUR ATHEIST RELIGION BEHAVIOR natural for you? Yes. All things are natural in atheism, as opposed to what? Supernatural?
Your religion is your non-scientific emotional belief system. The atheists took theirs from Christianity. The Old Testament is called Torah better known as Judaism. Christianity is New Testament. The atheists I know, have the same list of rights and wrongs as I do. Atheists and I agree with Jesus, let he who is without sin cast the first stone at the homosexual. JESUS TEACHING that undid Judaism's executions of gays. Atheists and I both like BATMAN. Batman has good honorable values, OUR values, these atheists, New testament Christians and I. Without having Judaism thrown in my face, what behavior codes do I have as a New Testament Christian that differ from the 'atheist'? I can't think of any right off hand and I am super smart.

Atheists are at war with Old testament bangers, not me. Creationism is Jewish. The Torah creation myth. I'm blamed for that why exactly? I am an ethical christian of the New Testament, and I frankly don't care if Jesus was what. I do it because I scientifically believe that assaulting other humans begets them to doing the same to others. Violence is a computer virus we spread to each others' minds. Jesus was a social scientist genius TO ME... what you may think of that fool Freud; Jesus is my Freud.

Bruce Lee taught that Jesus and Buddha were pointing at the truth, and how everyone admired their handsome beauty of their extended fingers. Jesus is not the truth. Buddha is not the truth. They are pointing at something. Jesus and Buddha both point at the same truth; they point at something. Of course you can follow both and they have everything that matters in common. Violence is man's worst enemy. Cure ourselves.

[ShadowsCool]

People with no brain? And you really have gutts to accuse non christians to just accept watever non sense you copy and paste from others? Put yourself in your place and respect others, because that is what Jesus taught.

What do you know of that Jesus taught? If you really had a grasp of Him, you wouldn't be putting me down.

The problem with your kind is you try to intellectualize God and it don't work. He comes across foolish to you.

You're the one that really started attacking my faith, not the other way around. Besides, I could care less.

I laid out the verses where even a child could understand, but you still rant about Israel in some incoherent manner.

You want to attack me, I can take it.


Jesus is not the truth. Buddha is not the truth. They are pointing at something. Jesus and Buddha both point at the same truth; they point at something. Of course you can follow both and they have everything that matters in common. Violence is man's worst enemy. Cure ourselves.

Well you mix in batman, buddha and Bruce Lee and you lost me.

Bottom line is, you can't be quoting Jesus unless you quote the whole Bible. The fact that He is God Almighty and not just some Buddha statue. Whatever. I don't agree with anything you just said. Nada

[JamCrackers]

I can understand the barking of my dog.
I can understand your stone age grunting.
I can understand the bitterness that makes you behave as you do.

You don't understand? THERE IS A SHOCKER! No one saw that coming.

I assume from your words, you don't write.
If you did write, you would know what a story is.
A story is not film. It is not words. It is not music.
A story is characters and drama - comic book is a story like any novel, and in many ways better; it has pictures. Film is in many ways better. Those characters are older than you. The millions of words of material and numbers of drawings makes it a body of work in astounding complexity and detail.

No need to tell people you are confused, you can't keep up, you don't understand.
People will generally have seen that coming.
When I see more bitter not understanding, I won't be especially surprised.

[ShadowsCool]

I assume from your words, you don't write.
If you did write, you would know what a story is.
A story is not film. It is not words. It is not music.
A story is characters and drama - comic book is a story like any novel, and in many ways better; it has pictures. Film is in many ways better. Those characters are older than you. The millions of words of material and numbers of drawings makes it a body of work in astounding complexity and detail.

No need to tell people you are confused, you can't keep up, you don't understand.
People will generally have seen that coming.
When I see more bitter not understanding, I won't be especially surprised.

Ha, you assume I don't write? Can I laugh to the world. I do write and you're welcome to send your condescending comments on it. Just click on my stats and read my writing. You'll be amazed or maybe you won't. I could care less. Yeah, I'm bitter, but it's all in your mind.

[JCamilo]

What do you know of that Jesus taught? If you really had a grasp of Him, you wouldn't be putting me down.

The problem with your kind is you try to intellectualize God and it don't work. He comes across foolish to you.

You're the one that really started attacking my faith, not the other way around. Besides, I could care less.

So far, you are just aiming to personal attack someone who just corrected you from the basic mistake of using a dialogue with Moses as an evidence that God broke the covenant with Israel. So, you suggested that people who disagree with you have "No brain", that "My kind" (which one is exactly? Black? Jew? Klingon?) cannot do something. And yes, good christians are not agressive, but respectful to others. They respect differences, not equality. You are just breaking the convenant by desobeying his teachings. (I fail to see they are such secret and so hard for people to know).


I laid out the verses where even a child could understand, but you still rant about Israel in some incoherent manner.

But you dont. You mention Moses. Even a kid now God could not breaking the convenant with Israel with Moses. The entire Israel nation and the laws the uphold the convenant come after him. God still helping Israel and their people.

And the verse of Jeremiah certainly disproof that God was breaking the convenant with Israel. A kid can read he is stabilishing a convenant with Israel and Judah, not breaking it in the very "verses" you posted. (God states Israel will last forever in Jeremiah as well).

Even a kid you say... Are you going to say the bible was written in some cryptic language?

You want to attack me, I can take it.[/QUOTE]

No, I do like a good christian and I do not attack anyone. i rather use the pencil than the sword.

[ShadowsCool]

But you dont. You mention Moses. Even a kid now God could not breaking the convenant with Israel with Moses. The entire Israel nation and the laws the uphold the convenant come after him. God still helping Israel and their people.



And the verse of Jeremiah certainly disproof that God was breaking the convenant with Israel. A kid can read he is stabilishing a convenant with Israel and Judah, not breaking it in the very "verses" you posted. (God states Israel will last forever in Jeremiah as well).


What do you know about the Bible? Obviously little. Yeah, God states that Israel will last forever, that's right, His people. Meaning the New Covenant has been switched over since the Jews rejected Christ. Now, all who are chosen are the spiritual Israel. You don't understand that?


Come on man, are you actually saying that the Jews didn't have a problem with God. Are you really saying that? Cause a New Covenant was formed, and an old Covenant was abolished. That was my whole point. Of course, God still sent prophets. But that was not the question. The question was, was the old Covenant broken; and it certainly was. You can't see that? And I stand by that text. It proves my point, no matter what you say.

As far as aggressive goes. What, should I let you walk all over me because I'm a Christian? Where would that get me? You've been looking to attack me from post one!

So you're allowed to attack me, but I can't fight back? yeah right!

You have a stereotype of what a good Christian is. I'll fight for my right to believe. So people like you don't step all over me.

[NikolaiI]

When you look at Buddhism and you look at Christianity, 99% of them are the same: that is,

transformation of one's life into something better daily,in each moment, by practicing kindness and love

that constitutes 99%. Positive things, hope, peace, love, knowledge, wisdom, bliss - again, 99% of it. To harm others is the highest "no-no" in both religions. To do so goes against them both. And you can harm others with words as easily and sometimes more deeply than other ways.

This is why respected Zen master and Buddhist teacher and leader Thich Nhat Hanh said what he did ("when you are a truly happy Buddhist, you are a Christian also, and vice versa") and why respect Christian monk and meditator, and teacher and leader Thomas Merton said, "I will be the best Buddhist I can be."

I hope that some good may come out of this, even the clearly (extremely) negative needles that have been flung. It's my firm belief that even good and bad are intertwined - the lotus grows from the mud, etc.

It's my sincere wish that all beings be happy. :) To that end, I'm sending peaceful and positive thoughts, love and kindness if you will, to everyone here. May your lives be continually transformed by the wisdom and love of Christ, if that is the form of the divine you hold sacred, or by the wisdom and love of Buddha, if that is the form of the divine you hold dear.

In my mother's church, we always say, "Peace be with you," to which we reply, "and also with you." In Thay's dharma talks, I hear them sing,

"The mind can go in a thousand directions,
but on this lovely day I walk in peace.
With each step, a gentle wind blows,
with each step, a flower blooms."

Both of these are meant for one thing - peace. Thay said, our intention is not to give you ideas about peace - you have plenty of ideas about peace. "Our intention is to be Peace... and this is possible, because Peace should be there in your body." The goal of both religions, once again, is a transformation to this peace.

I hope I have helped others in some way think about things in some new way. I am assuming that it's more likely than not that this thread will be closed now, which I accept without concern..

[ShadowsCool]

When you look at Buddhism and you look at Christianity, 99% of them are the same: that is,

transformation of one's life into something better daily,in each moment, by practicing kindness and love

that constitutes 99%. Positive things, hope, peace, love, knowledge, wisdom, bliss - again, 99% of it. To harm others is the highest "no-no" in both religions. To do so goes against them both. And you can harm others with words as easily and sometimes more deeply than other ways.

This is why respected Zen master and Buddhist teacher and leader Thich Nhat Hanh said what he did ("when you are a truly happy Buddhist, you are a Christian also, and vice versa") and why respect Christian monk and meditator, and teacher and leader Thomas Merton said, "I will be the best Buddhist I can be."

I respect your position. Because you come at it with a positive vibe. I don't believe in it, but I don't have to. I guess that's why we all have different spirits. Good luck.

[JCamilo]

What do you know about the Bible? Obviously little. Yeah, God states that Israel will last forever, that's right, His people. Meaning the New Covenant has been switched over since the Jews rejected Christ. Now, all who are chosen are the spiritual Israel. You don't understand that?

No sense. He refers to Israel and House of Judah, the political division of the state. If God intented to mean Israel as synounimous of "all people", he would not mention thedivsion.



Come on man, are you actually saying that the Jews didn't have a problem with God. Are you really saying that? Cause a New Covenant was formed, and an old Covenant was abolished. That was my whole point. Of course, God still sent prophets. But that was not the question. The question was, was the old Covenant broken; and it certainly was. You can't see that? And I stand by that text. It proves my point, no matter what you say.

Your claim is not the convenant was broken, but broken with Israel. You quoted Jeremiah who mentions clearly the renew of the convenant (since he kind off reinforces the older deuteronimic laws, he is hardly abolishing the old convenant, rather reinforcing it) was still with Israel and House of Judah.

And he keep sending prophets only to Israel or House of Judah (with Ezekiel he even reinforces it by rebuilding the temple and punishing some other who destroyed it. The convenant was clearly not switched in the old testment if God still wants to rebuild the temple and punish House of Judah and Israel enemies).

No matter what you say as you do a leap of interpretation and ignore the Jews and Israel stil follow the convenant.


As far as aggressive goes. What, should I let you walk all over me because I'm a Christian? Where would that get me? You've been looking to attack me from post one!

No, the only person who went on personal attack is you.My first post just said :You are really arguing jews broken the convenant even before they have build even Jerusalem?. Where is the attack? If you felt attacked by it, then you should avoid society.


So you're allowed to attack me, but I can't fight back? yeah right!

You have a stereotype of what a good Christian is. I'll fight for my right to believe. So people like you don't step all over me.

You are the only person attacking here. I did not said a thing about your person. I do not care about your person. I said about your arguments and yes, a christian is someone who must show respect to all people, not matter the difference. That is not something you do.

[ShadowsCool]

Truce. This endless back and forth ain't getting us anywhere. You have your belief's and I have mine. End of discussion.

[NikolaiI]

No, a Christian cannot be a buddhist. A Christian can be buddhistic, as I believe Christianity in essence is, but if a Christian can be a Buddhist and fill out both in the religion column of some form then that diminishes the meaning of both references to one's identity. Most Buddhism does in fact involve faith. The essence of Buddhism does not, but its actual practice often, in most sects, is accompanied by an intellectual leap beyond what is scientifically and logically certain.

Both religions can be great. I would be proud to belong to either.

Well, I don't understand why you say the essence of Buddhism does not involve faith. In my understanding Shraddha (faith) is very fundamental, it's one of the first and most basic, as well as necessary, steps.

Here is a very nice article.. http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/a/faithdoubt.htm Okay it gives me something I'd read more about previously..

" ... a Zen proverb says that a Zen student must have great faith, great doubt, and great determination. A related Ch'an saying says the four prerequisites for practice are great faith, great doubt, great vow, and great vigor. ..."

I'd read (In that book you mentioned once, The Three Pillars of Zen an essay or talk about that zen proverb, how the student must have great faith, great doubt and great determination.. Obviously there are endless facets to the jewel that is Buddhism..

The only place where I disagree from her slightly is when she says at the beginning how the word faith has been like degraded.. I don't think it has all that much.. but then I live where I live..

[Paulclem]

I was at a teaching today about taking refuge given by Tibetan Buddhist Teacher Geshe Tashi Tsering of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition - FPMT.

In his preamble to taking refuge he asked us to consider two questions:

Why Spirituality? (I posted a new thread on this).
and
Why The Buddhadharma and not the religion of our Forefathers?

His advice was to consider the other major religions and really consider which religious tradition will give you what you want.

He said the next step was to consider which Buddhist tradition to consider, and also which parts of the Buddhist traditions to incorporate in your skillful practice.

What is clear is that in considering The Buddhadharma you are making a very serious choice - in fact his advice was that having taken refuge in The Buddha Dharma and Sangha is to seriously apply yourself to the path.

He also said that flitting from one religion to another will bring little benefit. The reason for this is that whichever spiritual path a person chooses, it is a serious decision, and not one taken lightly. Buddhism requires a practice - ideally daily - which will enable a practitioner to apply the teachings to their specific path. No doubt the same is required in different ways of other religions.

The differences between Christianity and Buddhism have been explained on this thread a lot, and they probably need no reiteration. Darcy is absoutely correct.

I think what you have to consider about Thich Nat Hahn's book is what is its purpose? He's a great teacher, but did he get where he is by this kind of dual practice? No. He's a Buddhist who accepts Buddha's teachings.

What does he mean by "When you are truly happy"?.

I don't think he's saying Buddhism and Christianity are the same - he's talking about the completion of the path where distinctions become irrelevant. He doesn't say practice or believe the same things. I haven't read the book, but I read a couple of Christian reviews where the criticism of him was that he seemed to be trying to Buddhify Christianity. As I said, he's a great teacher, and I don't believe that criticism. I think he's probably offering a way for christians to benefit from some of the Buddhist methods no doubt in all sincerity.

So to reiterate: there is little value in flitting from one religion to another and trying to amagamate them. Both are valuable, as every religion is, to their practitioners, but the danger is that by the time you find this out, that time will have gone.

Don't waste your time. Consider very carefully which religion will benefit you the most, and choose the path that best suits you.

[NikolaiI]

Paul I have tried discussing with you before, in fact I wrote out several paragraphs but deleted them, but I have found it nigh impossible, I'm afraid. When I've discussed with you I've met an impenetrable, rigid wall which permits no flexibility... I won't surmise as to why the irreconcilibilty between us, but I wished to give you some response so you'd know what I am thinking and feeling. I think it is good that you are practicing Buddhism, though, and I wish to encourage you in every way. I do trust, however differently we view thoughts and philosophy, you will appreciate my honesty in this. So in essence, I am saying we will have to agree to disagree.

Having said this, I'm aware that all is always in change. I have meditated deeply on many Buddhist teachings for hundreds of hours, and yet I do fall short of perfection. For instance, one of Bankei's teachings is very instrumental in my life, and yet I have not reached its full realization.. I am speaking of his statement on self-partiality. For instance, in this discussion, I am sure I am constrained by it.

In the past, part of the rigidity I mean, you have dismissed much of what I have said.. Paul, I am one of the greatest... understanders.. of my generation. I have understood things which no one has. Long since I have realized that speaking of these publicly is not the best direction, yet I mention it now.. just to give you an idea where I'm coming from. You may not understand or agree, and that's fine, but I do say it for a reason. Praising oneself is certainly not generally a good way to improve one's position, but here I am not interested or attached to position in any degree. I do not mean to speak highly of myself, for I view myself as insubstantial as a leaf, yet also I am aware, near fully so, that even a leaf has a Buddha nature. Now, you are in the state where you argue particulars and you would go off into an argument of why a leaf does not have a Buddha nature, but I have had the experience, quite fully, that it does, that everything does.

Does this matter, no. But I wanted to tell you that I am, like I said, one of the best understanders, and I know of no other way of telling you this that might be better. You asked what it means to be truly happy. To be truly happy is to be in a complete state of gratitude, as well as bliss. For instance, I know that I've been blessed. I am lucky. you might call it, infinite luck. It is about how you view things. Ideally, everything is perfect. That's the nature of idealism, right? But it is not perfect. But it is. And we go back, and forth, and back and forth a million times, that is samsara. Only by cutting the root...

And I have done this, and seen all this, and been all this, and I told you that from the start, and from the start you objected and rejected and separated and all I told you was, I have.

What is one of the goals? It is developing spiritual power; what do we do with that? Generate positive potential, the energy of mindfulness - the energy of mindfulness is a powerful thing. Our world has a lot to do with shifting powers. And in our world, people suffer a lot because they care a lot about these things. The driving force of inequity and suffering is this complex complex we have; it is, all simultaneously: "I want. I want to have power. I don't have power. I want to know." People want to be rich. They want to have sex. Others just want to be happy, or they want to be healthy, or to have peace. The latter is a little higher than the former. But all wants are propagating one basic illusion, the illusion of duality and separateness. The shifting of wants is all part of this illusion..

Others want power so they can do good, and this is a very high ideal. Others want power so they can be respected more greatly, or feared more greatly, which isn't as high an ideal. The masters, the Buddha and other masters, figured this all out and knew there's only one way to be free of it - to step off the merry-go-round, to step off the wheel of cyclic existence. Funny thing is, you step off and realize you are at the hub, you were never moving, just your thoughts. This is why the, and it's so amazing to me, you have the same realizations popping up everywhere, in China, and in North America, and so many other places.. Black Elk, Lao Tzu, the list is endless.

You may ask, why have I rambled about so many subjects that are somewhat related but barely touching to the issue? No reason and every reason. My reason is for us to have a dialogue we need to cross many miles, because we've never been able to see remotely eye to eye. And because of the inherent nature of self-partiality, neither of us has accepted responsibility. But Paul I respect you as a Buddha. I hope you know that and anything that seems otherwise is really not, because this is what I truly feel.

So I hope you know that. Even if I don't like you, I respect you as a Buddha. And it is good that we disagree.

Bankei taught that everyone has a Buddha-mind. He said, when you were born your mother gave you one thing, and that is your unborn Buddha mind. If a person is simply at peace, if they are one with nature, then they are a Buddha. To be a Buddha is just this. It's an infinite process, but it's quite doable. You may say now, "What does Nikolai know about being a Buddha? I think everything he says is false and misguided and potentially harmful," and you have said this in the past, and worked to great ends therefore. That is why I wrote the first paragraph. The fact that everything is always in change, infinitely, is why I wrote the rest.

Reality is infinite. The universe is infinitesimal. I've been around. I don't want to do anything, I have nothing to do. I am only here until everyone wakes up and realizes everything. Until then, I'll come back here now and then, and live out my natural life...

It is natural to doubt. 99% of everyone everywhere has been about 99% wrong. But it is also natural to have faith, as I said, you've gotta have doubt and faith. So even though I doubt you, I also have great faith in you, Paulclem, as I said. And I want you to know that. It is the 1% that they have been right that matters, you know, and that redeems everything, that makes them beautiful, human, and that 1% has an infinitely greater weight than the rest. That is why I never start up conversations like this with people - no, I relate to them on their terms, within their reality. And you know? That is a perfect rule that will allow you to get on with everyone, and everyone will love you .. so if that is what you want, if you want everyone to love you; all you gotta do, is don't care, don't care at all, be completely not attached; yet also care, live with others, be compassionate with others, because as you are aware, you're not separate. So, what - don't care, and care? It doesn't make sense, that is, it's a paradox to our Western way of thinking.

You're unattached so you can be equal towards everyone, so you don't show more or less respect to the master in the temple as to the urchin in the street; but you care because you are connected to everyone in Buddha-nature. And you know what? I am not saying you should not reject what I teach. You should if it doesn't sound right to your heart. My inner truth is not your inner truth. And unlike others, I'm not trying to shed light on anyone's darkness. I'm just trying to shine my light to anyone and everyone. I don't think you have darkness; as I have said (and think you've disagreed), everything is light. We think there are shadows, but.. and in relation to what I said about how the 1% of good in people outweighs everything..

again to quote Thomas Merton, "There is no way of telling people they are all walking around shining like the sun. … it was as if I suddenly saw the secret beauty of their hearts, the depths of their hearts where neither sin nor desire nor self-knowledge can reach, the core of their reality, the person that each one is in God’s eyes. If only they could all see themselves as they really are."

I'll continue the discussion of religion if you want to. And I will even try to do so in a less flitting way. But you know I do flit about. I flit away from discussions if they are not beneficial, if there is not a foundation of trust and respect and love between the parties. Not love, but the beginning emotion of it, which is friendliness. Sometimes we have to go back to the basics. And this, is quite basic.

[YesNo]

I started reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Going Home Jesus and Buddha as Brothers as a result of this thread. The introduction said that Nhat Hanh when he meets someone he bows and says to himself: "I bow to you an enlightened being to be." That sounds like a nice way for one person to view another.

There's a documentary, Cave of Forgotten Dreams, about the Chauvet caves in France: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1664894/ Toward the end someone says that our species, Homo sapiens, was misnamed. It should have been Homo spiritualis.

Whatever common ground there is between Buddhism and Christianity I suspect it goes back further in time.

[Paulclem]

Hi Nik. We've presented our respective views. What more to add? I'm glad it's working out for you.

I saw Thic Nhat Hanh quite a few years ago for a short teaching he did in Birmingham. I'll always remember him holding out an orange as a symbol of interconnectedness. It's a really nice image I have of him.

The doc sounds fascinating. I'll see if I can get it on my Lovefilm account.

[NikolaiI]

I started reading Thich Nhat Hanh's Going Home Jesus and Buddha as Brothers as a result of this thread. The introduction said that Nhat Hanh when he meets someone he bows and says to himself: "I bow to you an enlightened being to be." That sounds like a nice way for one person to view another.

There's a documentary, Cave of Forgotten Dreams, about the Chauvet caves in France: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1664894/ Toward the end someone says that our species, Homo sapiens, was misnamed. It should have been Homo spiritualis.

Whatever common ground there is between Buddhism and Christianity I suspect it goes back further in time.

That's very cool. Let me know how it is. :)

I've never read any books by Thay, except for a few pages here and there, but now that I've seen Tommy Angelo's list I'm going to have to. I've listened to a lot of his dharma talks though, those can be downloaded online, and they've been very enlightening and strengthening to my practice.

[Bonsai Ent]

There are areas of Buddhist doctrine that are incompatible with Christianity.

In Buddhism we have a concept called "The three marks of existence"

Impermanence, suffering, and non-self.

Christianity teaches that God and Heaven are permanent, and that a human has an immutable soul.
Also, Buddhism teaches that we give ourselves salvation, whereas Christianity tends to be more petitionary, and calls on God for salvation.
So it would be considered (to some extent) an incomplete teaching by a Buddhist.

I think Christianity has a lot of good things to teach, and I think its healthy to experiment with traditions and resist labels.

But I suspect most people who try to "practice both" will end up veering more towards one or the other as their practice deepens.

I still find much that I love about the teachings of Jesus, but there are certain things in the gospel I simply cannot bring myself to accept.

Thomas Merton wrote a lot about the subject, but ultimately tended to ignore questions of doctrine, deeming Buddhist and Christian doctrine largely apart, and focussed instead on the things the faiths have in common, and the mystical experience that underlies both our practices.

[ShadowsCool]

I still find much that I love about the teachings of Jesus, but there are certain things in the gospel I simply cannot bring myself to accept.


You make some valid points. I was wondering what things you cannot accept.

The way I understand it, if every man turned good suddenly the world would become a nice place. Every one would then go to heaven and life on earth would become so much happier. I know I am simplifying it but I believe it to be true. But the Bible teaches, and I don't need the Bible to teach me this, that man is not good, and that he's greedy and self absorbed. Each man goes his own way for his own desire. Builds his own castle for his self and tends to shun any and all other men. I know this is a fact, cause I know some people who have the doe but they don't want to share a dime. And the one's that do share, what are they sharing?

Ever hear the story of the poor lady giving a few pennies? She gave more than the rich man. So it says.

So man is a lost soul and even the best of them come up short. This is why the Bible says: Foolish men, ever learning, never finding.

Ah, they found themselves and now it's time to die. No philosophy is going to save his greedy soul.

[Paulclem]

You make some valid points. I was wondering what things you cannot accept.

The way I understand it, if every man turned good suddenly the world would become a nice place. Every one would then go to heaven and life on earth would become so much happier. I know I am simplifying it but I believe it to be true. But the Bible teaches, and I don't need the Bible to teach me this, that man is not good, and that he's greedy and self absorbed. Each man goes his own way for his own desire. Builds his own castle for his self and tends to shun any and all other men. I know this is a fact, cause I know some people who have the doe but they don't want to share a dime. And the one's that do share, what are they sharing?

Ever hear the story of the poor lady giving a few pennies? She gave more than the rich man. So it says.

So man is a lost soul and even the best of them come up short. This is why the Bible says: Foolish men, ever learning, never finding.

Ah, they found themselves and now it's time to die. No philosophy is going to save his greedy soul.

Every one would then go to heaven and life on earth would become so much happier.

This is one of the reasons why Buddhism and Christianity differ. Heaven in Buddhist cosmology is transient lie all the other realms. Good Karma is exhausted without the wisdom to practice, and the being then falls from heaven into a lower rebirth.

I agree about the simple truths though. Just be good.

In the end though it's difficult to achieve this socially. The Buddhist explanation for this is ignorence of what causes suffering. Buddhism postulates that each living being tries to be and maintain a state of happiness. What The Buddha said was that they were actually ignorent of how to do this, and instead acted unskillfully and caused themselves further sufferig.

[Bonsai Ent]

You make some valid points. I was wondering what things you cannot accept.


I struggle with the whole cosmological set-up of the bible. I simply don't accept the old-testament account of who god is and what his relationship to humanity is, and it seems to me that the new testament is very contingent on the assumptions established in the old.

Believing that Jesus died for my sins, would require me to believe that I am engaged in some sort of pact with god, that required blood-sacrifice in the first place.

I think my (personal) understanding of Jesus' person and teachings is at quite radical odds with the Christian community as a whole.

So I tend to just view Jesus as a very holy person, whose views influence me a lot, but I don't accept Christianity, the doctrine.

There are also specific things Jesus believed that I don't, his strict beliefs about marriage for example.

[ShadowsCool]

I struggle with the whole cosmological set-up of the bible. I simply don't accept the old-testament account of who god is and what his relationship to humanity is, and it seems to me that the new testament is very contingent on the assumptions established in the old.

Believing that Jesus died for my sins, would require me to believe that I am engaged in some sort of pact with god, that required blood-sacrifice in the first place.

I think my (personal) understanding of Jesus' person and teachings is at quite radical odds with the Christian community as a whole.

So I tend to just view Jesus as a very holy person, whose views influence me a lot, but I don't accept Christianity, the doctrine.

There are also specific things Jesus believed that I don't, his strict beliefs about marriage for example.

At least your being honest. That's all I can say. No one is forcing Jesus down your throat. I was just curious and you gave your honest opinion.

[IceM]

Enlightenment can't be taught. It's subjective. It varies from person to person. The belief that Buddhism constitutes what Enlightenment contains and the subsequent belief in this statement seems too dogmatic. Siddartha spent practically his entire life searching for enlightenment because he understood that enlightenment can't be taught; it must be found. Buddhism can't dictate satisfaction. It appears to me that only dogmatic approaches to philosophy would think this.


What I was meaning to say in my original post is that a Christian can apply the fundamental virtues discussed in the Bible to attain Buddhist aims. Of course the difference in whom to worship plays a major difference. But, taking fundamental values from Christianity, you can attain some of the fundamental aims of Buddhism. That was my purpose.


The question, to me, would only be asked out of fear of betraying a denomination.

If you think about it, Buddhism and Christianity are very similar. Buddhism preaches good moral conduct, wisdom, and self-inflection through meditation as ways to escape the suffering in our lives. Christianity preaches tolerance, forgiveness, and discipline both to resist sin and tolerate it in others. The only difference then becomes that Christians believe in a Creator.

I was significantly wrong in these above comments, and I recant my statements (I am unable to delete them). Anyone who maintains that Jesus Christ is NOT the Son of God is not a Christian. People cannot deny that Jesus is the Christ and truthfully call themselves Christians. On the Christian end of this, we believe that we have received from God His holy, precious, and complete Word. Why would we as Christians want to adopt any other worldviews, especially godless ones? Christ is sufficient.

I was ignorant then, and I am still ignorant now, regarding the fullness of Buddhist philosophy. But Biblically speaking, Jesus is the Christ, and any religion that denies that is unchristian, and any person who denies that is not a Christian. To be clear, people can place faith in Christ and repent of their sins and become Christians, but clearly anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is not a Christian.

It is also not just a major difference - it is an entirely fundamental and monumental difference - between these faiths that Christians believe in God and Buddhists do not. Me downplaying this was a mistake; it is of fundamental importance to Christians that we believe in the triune God.