The Power of Beauty [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 06:04 AM

Well, beauty is a big issue and we are all fascinated by it, some more than others ........

Aye Lassie - a Thing of Beauty is Joy Forever :-)

If you are refering strictly to physical appearence ..... it's easier for us to agree who is beautiful and who isn't. And we do agree on Angelina Jolie:).

That is what I meant when I say Beauty has a self-verification mechanism.

But you will see that there will be different opinions, something that might appeal to me, might not to you .........

Yes, we may have opinions when we make comparisons. But Angelina Jolie would be still beautiful in her own right - ie Beauty Stands on it's own.

But there are people who possess a certain carisma that makes them more beautiful than some that have just great physical appearence.

Yes. That is too.

And as Cinderalla says:

"Do you love me because I am Beautiful or
I am beautiful because you love me"...

But Moira would we choose to be beautiful if we had a choice? :-)

Moira

05-18-2007, 06:25 AM

If that would be a choice of course we would all choose to be beautiful ....

But that is not the case....
And think about a world full of beautiful people only. Wouldn't that be boring:)?

Yes, Cinderella was right, and love does bring a certain glow to someone's face and makes it more beautiful than it usualy is and that's just the beauty of love....

nps_marina

05-18-2007, 06:25 AM

Hey, when does Cinderella say that? (I like it, though).

I believe that, truly, you see people and hence find them attractive- we walk down the street, go by some hot hunk, and think 'ahoy!'.

Or some hot hunkess. ;)

But the thing is (apart from the fact that I might think this or that man handsome, and you might not, and vice versa), after you meet the hot hunk or hunkess, if you happen to dislike their insides, you'll stop seeing the beauty in them. That's why I think 'it's what's inside that counts'.

So, beauty is in the eye of the beholder not only because your likes and mine are different (although there are certainly some major beautiful people who we will all agree upon, leaving aside the fact that perhaps and even though we might think them beautiful, we don't have a crush on them); but because the beholder, in learning about the person's personality, sees something else (better or worse) than the rest of people see...

I also think it works the other way around ('ugly' people are made beautiful by their beautiful personality). The problem then is you have to get someone to talk to us, first... :p That's why we all want to be beautiful.

manolia

05-18-2007, 06:46 AM

Well, beauty is a big issue and we are all fascinated by it, some more than others ........

Is Beauty really in the Eye of the Beholder? It is, i truly believe this.
If you are refering strictly to physical appearence ..... it's easier for us to agree who is beautiful and who isn't. And we do agree on Angelina Jolie:). But you will see that there will be different opinions, something that might appeal to me, might not to you .........
For example i like dark or brown hair people more than blonds ...... and you might go with blond hair....

But there are people who possess a certain carisma that makes them more beautiful than some that have just great physical appearence.

I agree with you Moira. Beauty is subjective. With my female friends we always had a hard time to agree on who is beautiful and who isn't :nod: . I usually prefered blond guys. Moreover in many cases people consider as beautiful what they don't have. It is very common for people to prefer straight hair when they have curly or blond when they have black etc. I must add that beauty has to do with epoch also. What i mean is that in rennaisance ages the ideal of beauty were plumb women (the extra kilos was an indication of health and good nourishment) while now there is a (almost racistic) tendency for very thin persons. Excuse my spelling errors. I'll edit later ;)

Moira

05-18-2007, 06:58 AM

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 06:59 AM

I usually prefered blond guys.

But that is more of a preference than what beauty is?

Angelina Jolie would be beautiful regardless if she has blonde or black hair?

Moira

05-18-2007, 07:02 AM

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 07:08 AM

Yes Lote, but if you like dark haired girls more than blond ones you will always say that Angelina is more beautiful than let's say Claudia Schiffer .......Your likes and dislikes will always be part of your chosing something over something else....

Everyone agrees that Angelina Jolie is Beautiful. Did we based that judgement on the colour of her hair or something else?

Moira

05-18-2007, 07:09 AM

I agree with you Moira. Beauty is subjective. With my female friends we always had a hard time to agree on who is beautiful and who isn't :nod: . I usually prefered blond guys. Moreover in many cases people consider as beautiful what they don't have. It is very common for people to prefer straight hair when they have curly or blond when they have black etc. I must add that beauty has to do with epoch also. What i mean is that in rennaisance ages the ideal of beauty were plumb women (the extra kilos was an indication of health and good nourishment) while now there is a (almost racistic) tendency for very thin persons. Excuse my spelling errors. I'll edit later ;)

Hi Manolia, good to see you again:).

Yes, we can agree on who is beautiful and who isn't up to one point.
From there we are subjective in our choices and yes i always envyed curly hair:).

manolia

05-18-2007, 07:10 AM

But that is more of a preference than what beauty is?

Angelina Jolie would be beautiful regardless if she has blonde or black hair?

I can't answer to your question satisfactorilly, since i believe that beauty has to do with preference, or rather beauty IS preference

Hi Manolia, good to see you again:).

Yes, we can agree on who is beautiful and who isn't up to one point.
From there we are subjective in our choices and yes i always envyed curly hair:).

Nice too see you too :)

Moira

05-18-2007, 07:13 AM

Everyone agrees that Angelina Jolie is Beautiful. Did we based that judment on the colour of her hair or something else?

I don't think everyone agrees she is beautiful. You do, i do and a lot of other people do ....... but i am sure there are some people who do not find her attractive maybe because they don't like some features (let's say a full big mouth..... could't think of anything else now, i like her:).

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 07:28 AM

I can't answer to your question satisfactorilly, since i believe that beauty has to do with preference, or rather beauty IS preference

If that is so then we would not agree that Angelina Jolie is beautiful since you like Blondes?

There must be something else that says Angelina Jolie is Beautiful regardless of preferences?

I don't think everyone agrees she is beautiful. You do, i do and a lot of other people do ....... but i am sure there are some people who do not find her attractive maybe because they don't like some features (let's say a full big mouth..... could't think of anything else now, i like her:).

Yes. Not everyone. But a lot of people.

So it must be something more than a preferences?

How about we find things beautiful because they tend to posses a degree of symmetry?

Moira

05-18-2007, 07:33 AM

Like what? You tell me ..........

Don't we all have our personal standards that we use when judging something? Some of them are general and are the same for everybody but there are others that maybe make sense only to us.

Yes. Not everyone. But a lot of people.

So it must be something more than a preferences?

How about we find things beautiful because they tend to posses a degree of symmetry?

Symmetry and logic don't really apply to beauty.
We can say about an apple that is beautiful because it has a perfect shape and is flawless but you cannot become facinated by that apple because of that.

It's just my opinion............

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 07:41 AM

manolia

05-18-2007, 07:42 AM

If that is so then we would not agree that Angelina Jolie is beautiful since you like Blondes?

There must be something else that says Angelina Jolie is Beautiful regardless of preferences?

Ok if you are very anxious about Angelina you could start a poll :lol: . I am sure the majority of men in this site will agree with you. As for me, being a woman, i haven't reflected so much on Angelina's beauty. That would be ehhhm not normal ;). I'm joking. I know that you take Jolie only as an example. But you know it's better not to raise beauty standards from Hollywood movies. I believe that most of the people in cinema and tv don't look like THAT in their every day lives (too much make up and Photoshop) plus we don't know how they looked like prior to plastic surgeries and external improvements ;). And since you and i don't share the same acquaintances (normal everyday people) we could never have a decent conversation on this subject ;)

andave_ya

05-18-2007, 11:24 AM

I would say that beauty doesn't have to come from the physical or mental attributes of a person. It doesn't have to come from a person at all. For example, how often have you read a book or seen a movie and thought, "That was beautiful"? But as what I might call beautiful you might call weird, I guess that goes back to the beginning - beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. Yes, I think I'll go with that. On a personal level, my Mom loves gardens, and by loves I mean it's practically her life; whereas with me, I like it. Not love. I love to listen to music, to unravel its melodies and pull out meaning from it but to my Mom, music is noise and she is only now beginning to see what I see in music. So yes, I'd argue that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

kathycf

05-18-2007, 11:47 AM

In the context of Human Beauty:

-Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder
-Beauty is skin deep
-True Beauty is what is inside.
Well...some silly git wrote a blog entry on physical beauty a while ago. Let me think....

A person's physical appearance does not create kindness, intelligence, integrity, compassion or any other of the host of qualities that might be considered to be desirable, so perhaps we could say in that sense that "beauty is skin deep" and that there are other qualities besides the physical that make a person "beautiful". Physical beauty can attract unwanted attention to a person, make them feel uncomfortable. People make assumptions sometimes about pretty people...that they are vain, or not very bright, or they must be very superficial and only think about their looks.

Perhaps that these words were invented by "ugly" people to make themselves feel better because we all want to be beautiful?
Do you really want me to give a serious response to that? Are you playing Devil's Advocate? I don't think you meant it seriously...and if you did I would be disappointed. I personally find such remarks really rather contemptous: "Oh, you only whine on about inner beauty because your so ugly". Nobody has said that to me, and if they did I would be very offended.

Is Beauty really in the Eye of the Beholder?
To a degree.

Agenlina Jolie - everyone will agree is a Beautiful Person.
Are we all to agree on Jolie's beauty? :confused:

Beauty therefore is something that verifies itself? That beauty has it's own self-verification mechanisms?

What say you?
There are some qualities that could be considered univerally attractive such as healthy skin and hair and symetical features. Then you get into measuring beauty by some sort of "yardstick" .... This does not take into account cultural differences and personal preferences. Some standard of what is beauty could be considered objective, while others come from a subjective viewpoint. Some men prefer blondes and some prefer brunettes. Some women will prefer tall, dark and handsome and some women will like a blond surfer looking type of guy. Those are personal and subjective feelings on physical beauty, aren't they?

kilted exile

05-18-2007, 12:09 PM

Ok, I may be in the minority here, but I have never been particularly enamoured with Angelina Jolie (http://images.askmen.com/galleries/actress/angelina-jolie/pictures/angelina-jolie-picture-1.jpg) - I dont like the way her cheeks seem so sunken in. So in this way beauty is definitely a preference, based on what we percieve and would have to be in the eye of the beholder as a result.

Of course, societally we are given an image and told that it is beautiful, the majority of the time its nonsense. Maralyn (sp?) Monroe was thought to be the pinnacle of beauty, but now there are some who may consider her to be carrying a few extra pounds. Then we had the lanky supermodels who look like they have thrown up everything they've ate and were told for a woman to be beautiful she should look like that. More recently it has been the more curvaceous figure that has been "in" and we have been told Beyonce & Jennifer Lopez were beautiful. The more current fascination appears to be with the "Jessicas" as in Simpson, Alba and Biehl.

I dont pay attention to it I know what I find attractive (fuller face, typically brunnette & I really like green eyes) I dont need the media to tell me what I should find attractive.

While I was typing this I was reminded of the song Perfect 10 by The Beautiful South, a part of which I'm gonna post here:

Shes a perfect 10, but she wears a 12
Baby keep a little 2 for me
She could be sweet 16**, bustin out at the seams
Its still love in the first degree

When hes at my gate, with a big fat 8
You wanna see the smile on my face
And even at my door, with a poor poor 4
There aint no man can replace

cause we love our love,
In different sizes
I love her body, especially the lies
Time takes its toll, but not on the eyes
Promise me this, take me tonight

**He is of course referring to dress size here not age.

byquist

05-18-2007, 01:52 PM

definitely in the Eye of the Beholder.

As in the song,
"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
Just make an ugly woman your wife."

Elly_blue

05-18-2007, 01:58 PM

Beauty is in my opinion connected with social factors. At an early age we were told what is beautiful and what not. Not only parents, but also teachers, friends and television shown us what is considered to be beautiful. If someone has a statement about something and after that someone else confirms it and after that, more people agree, it is likely that YOU (maybe unconsciously) also start to share their view.

Tuesday

05-18-2007, 03:51 PM

A very interesting topic and I'm quite surprised that no one seems to have mentioned the evolutionary/biological side of the matter. I'm not sure how much truth there is to it, but in the mass media this theory is quite established. There are a lot of documentaries about how subconscious factors influence our way of regarding someone as desirable or not. For example, some scientist say that the smell is a key factor in this decision. Others say that attributes such as wide hips make women attractive to men because it is interpreted as a sign of fertility. Then there's the whole deal about mixing different genes and so on.

But I don't really understand how this interacts with the social factors influencing our perception of beauty. If the information of an ideal partner was really tied to or genes, how does it come that this picture has changed from time to time? My hypothesis is that physical attractiveness our beauty is very tightly related to health. We regard someone as beautiful if he or she looks healthy. Nowadays, in the time of overconsumption and obesity, we find someone beautiful who is slender and athletic. A few centuries back, in the times of famines and starvation, everyone looked up to those few who were not undernourished and had a little more mass.

But as many others have said: There is something beyond the physique that creates that sense of beauty in us. The way someone talks, the voice, the ways someone behaves, his/her facial expression and gestures. Some people just radiate and that is what I find beautiful.

I think there is a close relationship between beauty and Robert Pirsig's Quality ;)

Bakiryu

05-18-2007, 04:00 PM

Beauty is a matter of opinion. To find beauty in a homely person is something very few can do. Or have you never been to high school? where your life is made miserable just for what you look like.

Niamh

05-18-2007, 04:04 PM

I dont pay attention to it I know what I find attractive (fuller face, typically brunnette & I really like green eyes) I dont need the media to tell me what I should find attractive.
And all of us brunettes with green eyes applaud you for not choosing the typical blonde hair blue eyed girls that hollywood tell men to!

While I was typing this I was reminded of the song Perfect 10 by The Beautiful South, a part of which I'm gonna post here:

**He is of course referring to dress size here not age.

I like that song. Should be made the anthem for real women! What ever happened to the beautiful south anyway?

Note: Some one could be the most beautiful woman one the outside but be the ugliest on the inside. A woman who is not that attractive my have men falol at her feet for her beautiful personality. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Bakiryu

05-18-2007, 04:13 PM

Note: Some one could be the most beautiful woman one the outside but be the ugliest on the inside. A woman who is not that attractive my have men falol at her feet for her beautiful personality. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Do you remenber high school? Most of my friends have beautiful, fun personalites yet they are so daily slighted by what they look like their self-steem is precariusly low and most of them practitce some form of self harm.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but only if the beholder is blind...(or doesn't live in the real world)

kilted exile

05-18-2007, 04:31 PM

I like that song. Should be made the anthem for real women! What ever happened to the beautiful south anyway?

I'm not sure, I think their album after Quench (which contains not only Perfect 10, but the anthem for the overlooked everywhere "I may be ugly") kinda bombed.which is a shame. However they were never the same after they released the CD containing "Marry me" & "Rotterdam" - They also of course had the song 36D which is also a fun look at the idea of hollywood beauty, part of which again I'll include here (nah, infact I'll include the whole thing 'cos its just too good)

Close your legs, open your mind
Leave those compliments well behind
Dig a little deeper into yourself
And you may find

Come over here just sit right down
Neednt comb your hair, neednt pout or frown
I hear youve turned our young men
Into dribbling clowns

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?
36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?

Make their day and go ahead
Remove your clothes lie on their bed
Just a last gasp chance or an outside bet
To the easily led

And before you do just what you do
Here one thought for you to chew
The men who run the business that you sell
They screw you too

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?
36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?

Youre just another 365 night stand
But youre so handy, youre so handy
You cheapen and you nasty every woman in this land
But youre so handy, youre so handy

Your pictures hanging pretty on the squaddies walls
Youre stevens, andys, youre ians, youre pauls
Your bodys through of fondly in the rugby mauls
But you want more

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?

36d so what (d) so what
Is that all that youve got?
He was trying to save his job
He was, he was trying to save his job.

Do you remenber high school? Most of my friends have beautiful, fun personalites yet they are so daily slighted by what they look like their self-steem is precariusly low and most of them practitce some form of self harm.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but only if the beholder is blind...(or doesn't live in the real world)

I remember High School extremely well, particularly the fact that nearly all the popular girls in my year ended up with the popular guys who wound up in general being deadbeats

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 05:43 PM

Symmetry and logic don't really apply to beauty.
We can say about an apple that is beautiful because it has a perfect shape and is flawless but you cannot become facinated by that apple because of that.

Scientific research has found that on the whole we find "symmetric" faces or faces that have a degree of symmetry - Beautiful.

Symmetry is also found in nature - even at fundamental levels of subatomic particles. So we have evolved to appreciate symmetry becuase we have evolved from it. Faces that show degree of symmetry also an indicator of "healthy" genes and thus we find symmetic faces attractive.

Ok if you are very anxious about Angelina you could start a poll

LOL :-) Perhaps I shall ;-)

I am sure the majority of men in this site will agree with you.

And Good Thing Too! :-)

As for me, being a woman, i haven't reflected so much on Angelina's beauty. That would be ehhhm not normal.

That is I find hard to believe. Women are more scruniser of women Beauty than men! :-)

But you know it's better not to raise beauty standards from Hollywood movies.

I like to believe that Beauty has it's own standard. As long as a face has a degree of symmetry I believe majority will find that face attractive.

I believe that most of the people in cinema and tv don't look like THAT in their every day lives (too much make up and Photoshop) plus we don't know how they looked like prior to plastic surgeries and external improvements.

Perhaps in the future when we have uploaded ourselves into our computer hard-drives - then photoshoping whould be liking putting your make up - then we can all be beautiful :-) I am just joking but I understand what you say.

And since you and i don't share the same acquaintances (normal everyday people) we could never have a decent conversation on this subject

Hey as a Computer Programmer - we have created Instant Messengers - we can have a decent conversation now without ever meeting :-)

But think of internet - here we don't see each other's faces - thus the Beauty Barrier is gone. Only thing we have is how we type our words on our messages and how we express ourselves with words. Internet has level the field between the Body Beautiful and the Body Ugly :-) That is a good thing don't you think?

So yes, I'd argue that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But science says we find symmetric faces Beautiful? So Beauty is not in the Eye of the Beholder - But Beauty is in Symmetry :-)

People make assumptions sometimes about pretty people...that they are vain, or not very bright, or they must be very superficial and only think about their looks.

Perhaps their jealous of their Beauty? We tend to hate things we can't have?

Do you really want me to give a serious response to that? Are you playing Devil's Advocate?

I am nothing but the Devil's Advocate :-)
Just kiddin :-)

I don't think you meant it seriously...and if you did I would be disappointed.

Not a serious person Kath. Don't take anything I say seriously :-)
Life is serious enough. Anymore it would be very tragic and sad :-(

I personally find such remarks really rather contemptous: "Oh, you only whine on about inner beauty because your so ugly".

Perhaps there is some truth to that? We tend hate things we can't have? Envy and jelousy is part and parcel of humanity? Why would the "ugly" sisters hate Cinderalla? :-)

Are we all to agree on Jolie's beauty?

She has been voted the most Beautiful women. But I shall conduct a poll here just to find out :-)

There are some qualities that could be considered univerally attractive such as healthy skin and hair and symetical features.

That is the self-verification mechanism :-)

Then you get into measuring beauty by some sort of "yardstick" .... This does not take into account cultural differences and personal preferences. Some standard of what is beauty could be considered objective, while others come from a subjective viewpoint. Some men prefer blondes and some prefer brunettes. Some women will prefer tall, dark and handsome and some women will like a blond surfer looking type of guy. Those are personal and subjective feelings on physical beauty, aren't they?

But what we agree on is the Beauty that verifies itself.

Ok, I may be in the minority here, but I have never been particularly enamoured with Angelina Jolie - I dont like the way her cheeks seem so sunken in.

http://www.dailycollage.com/collages/jolie/05-angelina-jolie-800x600.jpg

just to balance it out :-)

Beauty is in my opinion connected with social factors. At an early age we were told what is beautiful and what not. Not only parents, but also teachers, friends and television shown us what is considered to be beautiful.

I believe that we have evolved to find symmetric faces Beautiful regardless of social factors.

A very interesting topic and I'm quite surprised that no one seems to have mentioned the evolutionary/biological side of the matter.

I have. It is Symmetry.

kathycf

05-18-2007, 06:17 PM

Scientific research has found that on the whole we find "symmetric" faces or faces that have a degree of symmetry - Beautiful.

Symmetry is also found in nature - even at fundamental levels of subatomic particles. So we have evolved to appreciate symmetry becuase we have evolved from it. Faces that show degree of symmetry also an indicator of "healthy" genes and thus we find symmetic faces attractive.

Yes and that is what I mean by an objective measurement. Symmetry is one such measurement. Others are more subjective.

A very interesting topic and I'm quite surprised that no one seems to have mentioned the evolutionary/biological side of the matter.
I'm not surprised because most of the studies conducted fall into evolutionary psychology, or another social science discipline. I can't assume that every member here is interested or up to date with every new thing in social sciences ...although I am sure there are some. :)

While I agree that some traits that we appreciate as "beauty" may be hardwired, to me it doesn't fully explain cultural differences in perceiving what is beautiful.

But think of internet - here we don't see each other's faces - thus the Beauty Barrier is gone. Only thing we have is how we type our words on our messages and how we express ourselves with words. Internet has level the field between the Body Beautiful and the Body Ugly :-) That is a good thing don't you think?
It removes preconceptions that we may form based on a person's appearance whether that person is plain or attractive. Bias goes both way in appearance, I think. So yes, it is a good thing. Thank you Mr Computer Programmer , sir. :p

Perhaps their jealous of their Beauty? We tend to hate things we can't have?
Who is "we"? ;)

Not a serious person Kath. Don't take anything I say seriously :-)
Okay! :lol:

Perhaps there is some truth to that? We tend hate things we can't have? Envy and jelousy is part and parcel of humanity? Why would the "ugly" sisters hate Cinderalla? :-)
Sometimes I wonder if the sisters were really all that ugly. It seems to me that they could have been quite attractive, and still been jealous. Cinderella was supposed to posses not only "outer" beauty but inner as well. No matter how good some people think they are, there is always somebody better, right? That is why I think it is better to cultivate that which is unique in me, and not simply be about my appearance. Otherwise, life becomes one big insecure rat race, no?

Jealousy is indeed part and parcel of humanity, and not only "ugly" people suffer from it. People get jealous over all sorts of things. I get jealous of my best friend because she has a child. It isn't something I am proud of, but there it is.

kilted exile

05-18-2007, 06:24 PM

http://www.dailycollage.com/collages/jolie/05-angelina-jolie-800x600.jpg

just to balance it out :-)

Still doesnt do much for me, especially if compared to for example Neve Campbell (http://www.born-today.com/Today/pix/campbell_neve.jpg) who may in fact be more beautiful bald (http://www.baldhalloffame.com/images/__neve%20campbell%2001.jpg)

Niamh

05-18-2007, 06:25 PM

Lote i think you'll find that Kathy is correct regarding Cinderella. The ugly sisters are really ment to be shown as 'ugly' on the inside which shaddows there outer 'beauty'. Its a case of looks can be decieving.

Lote-Tree

05-19-2007, 12:30 PM

While I agree that some traits that we appreciate as "beauty" may be hardwired, to me it doesn't fully explain cultural differences in perceiving what is beautiful.

Even in the cultural differences you will find that it is Symmetry that is the important factor.

Thank you Mr Computer Programmer , sir. :p

Ah little praise Geeks - thank you Kath :-)
They make wondeful companions because they know exactly what then want and how to get it :-)

Who is "we"? ;)

Human beings.

Sometimes I wonder if the sisters were really all that ugly. It seems to me that they could have been quite attractive, and still been jealous.

It is hard to be jealous of another person's kindness. It does not work does it?
Because kindess is something we have the power to cultivate - but we can't cultivate physcial beauty - we are born with it and either we have it or we don't.

Cinderella was supposed to posses not only "outer" beauty but inner as well. No matter how good some people think they are, there is always somebody better, right? That is why I think it is better to cultivate that which is unique in me, and not simply be about my appearance. Otherwise, life becomes one big insecure rat race, no?

We can't we all be beautiful - then we will never be insecure about this one aspect of our life - an aspect we can't change. We can change how kind or compassionate we are but not our physical beauty.

People get jealous over all sorts of things. I get jealous of my best friend because she has a child. It isn't something I am proud of, but there it is.

But this is not something like beauty is it? You could have a child or adopt one etc...but beauty is something you are born with.

kathycf

05-19-2007, 01:21 PM

It is hard to be jealous of another person's kindness. It does not work does it?
Because kindess is something we have the power to cultivate - but we can't cultivate physcial beauty - we are born with it and either we have it or we don't.
There are other things besides kindness...no? Intelligence? Money? Popularity? People are never jealous of those things, just beauty? What about the drop dead gorgeous woman who loses her mate and is profoundly jealous as a result?

But this is not something like beauty is it? You could have a child or adopt one etc...but beauty is something you are born with.
Um, no I can't. Hence the jealousy. If it was something I knew I could do, why would I then be jealous?

If I am jealous that my friend Sandy Beach has a ruby ring, and I have $600 in my checking account that I have earmarked for frivolous expenditures, wouldn't I just go down to the jewelry store and buy a ruby ring?

*edit*
RE: symmetry and culture.
What about cultural practices of neck stretching? There are tribes in remote regions of Thailand and another in Africa who practice this tradition. It is thought to have originated for several different reasons, but one is to beautify the individual. To me, personally it is not attractive, because the neck is no longer in proportion to the rest of the body. I agree with you that symmetry in facial features may well be a universal way to measure attractiveness, but there are other factors too, I think.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/200px-Kayan_woman_with_neck_rings.jpg

Lote-Tree

05-19-2007, 01:31 PM

There are other things besides kindness...no? Intelligence? Money? Popularity? People are never jealous of those things, just beauty? What about the drop dead gorgeous woman who loses her mate and is profoundly jealous as a result?

Intelligence, Money, Popularity - these things are within the realm of possiblity ie through study it is possible to improve intelligence, through hard work one can earn money and one can work at one's social skills to gain popularity...but Beauty you either born with it or you don't...

Um, no I can't. Hence the jealousy. If it was something I knew I could do, why would I then be jealous?

I don't understand? You are women - child bearing is within your capability and if not you can always adopt one?

If I am jealous that my friend Sandy Beach has a ruby ring, and I have $600 in my checking account that I have earmarked for frivolous expenditures, wouldn't I just go down to the jewelry store and buy a ruby ring?

If Ruby Ring is your thing - then that is within your possibility. It is realisiable...but can say that of Beauty?

What about cultural practices of neck stretching? There are tribes in remote regions of Thailand and another in Africa who practice this tradition. It is thought to have originated for several different reasons, but one is to beautify the individual. To me, personally it is not attractive, because the neck is no longer in proportion to the rest of the body. I agree with you that symmetry in facial features may well be a universal way to measure attractiveness, but there are other factors too, I think.

This is just a cultural Fetish as opposed to Beauty based on Symmetry?

kathycf

05-19-2007, 01:46 PM

I think you are making the attainment of other goals a little too simple. They may be within the realm of possiblity, yes, but that doesn't mean that it will be possible for every individual to attain them. If such goals were so easily attained we would not have people living in poverty, we would not have people who live in fear or loneliness, we would not have people being ostracized, and we wouldn't have people starving because they can't get food to eat.

I have already stated that I cannot have children, nor adopt them. I am not prepared to go into the reasons why on a public message board. I am jealous of my friend because she has something I wanted my entire life...a child and loving family. I have been callled beautiful many times and it is something I could give two figs about. :rolleyes: Beauty is poor consolation indeed.

This is what I mean about it helps me to cultivate unique or more substantial qualities in my life. Beauty is not an achievement to me, because as you say, it is something a person is born with. An achievement is doing something...helping people, writing, whatever.

Oh, I'm sorry Lote. I am feeling a bit cranky and don't mean to sound that way in my post. :)

*edit*
Sure beauty is an attainable goal. If somebody has the money, of course. If going down to a jewelry store is an attainable goal, then why isn't a trip or two to the plastic surgeon any less attainable? For that matter, skin and hair care products and cosmetics do wonders to improve appearance. Aren't those just as easily attained as a ruby ring?

Lote-Tree

05-19-2007, 02:25 PM

I think you are making the attainment of other goals a little too simple. They may be within the realm of possiblity, yes, but that doesn't mean that it will be possible for every individual to attain them.

No of course not. But the possibility allows us to dream :-)

I have already stated that I cannot have children, nor adopt them. I am not prepared to go into the reasons why on a public message board. I am jealous of my friend because she has something I wanted my entire life...a child and loving family. I have been callled beautiful many times and it is something I could give two figs about. :rolleyes: Beauty is poor consolation indeed.

My apologies Kath. You don't have to tell me anything. I was speaking in terms of biology of you being a women etc... Again my apologies.

Oh, I'm sorry Lote. I am feeling a bit cranky and don't mean to sound that way in my post. :)

No probs Kath. It is my fault. I missed the context in earlier post :-(

Regards,
Lote.

kathycf

05-19-2007, 02:40 PM

Ah, no problem, Lote and thanks.

I am curious. There are books related to this topic, some I have read and some not. Have you ever done any reading about the power of beauty, or did some other factor spur you to start this topic?

For example, several years ago I read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolfe and I discussed that I am interested in reading Nancy Etcoff's book Survival of the Prettiest here (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/blogs/viewblog.php?entry=690&userid=14176). I can't say that I agree with everything in such books, but they do make for interesting reading. But then, that is purely personal on my part as I am one of those "interpersonal" thinkers, so I am interested in people and psychology. ;) :p

Another article that may be of interest. The Evolution of Beauty. (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/09/980928072106.htm)

Lote-Tree

05-20-2007, 04:49 AM

I am curious. There are books related to this topic, some I have read and some not. Have you ever done any reading about the power of beauty, or did some other factor spur you to start this topic?

Why Kath is the discussion not interesting or amusing enough? :-)

I have always been fascinated with Beauty - the Power of Beauty that makes us stand like rabbits caught in the car's head lamp on the road or like moths to the flame. Beauty intoxicates us. It mesmerise us. It unsettles us. John Keats wrote "Beauty is Truth and Truth Beauty". Beauty inspires us, it inspires love in us...

For example, several years ago I read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolfe...

Yes, I have read that book a while ago. But I think she made it into something "political" but fails understand humanity have always been fascinated with Beauty and is nothing to do with what "political" idea of what Beauty is. Beauty is about the Symmetry of the Form - the rest is just details.

Moira

05-20-2007, 07:37 AM

Well, when you focus on something you just won't give up:).

I can agree that symmetry plays a role but i truly believe that 'other details' (preferences) are more important.
There is another man on this thread and he just said that he does't find Angelina so attractive as you do ..... and we cannot say one of you is wrong, can we?

Elly_blue

05-20-2007, 09:07 AM

I'm not really sure if perfect symmetry is the key to ultimate beauty. Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.

Lote-Tree

05-20-2007, 11:03 AM

Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.

If that was the case then you would expect people to undergone surgery to create these tiny flaws. But that is never the case. It is usually to remove imperfections that people are prepared to undergo the pain of surgery.

kilted exile

05-20-2007, 11:06 AM

I am not sure I agree with the symmetery thing - if you see only a photograph in profile would it be impossible to find the person beautiful?

Lote-Tree

05-20-2007, 11:17 AM

Well, when you focus on something you just won't give up:).

Only in the interest of furthering the debate :-)

kathycf

05-20-2007, 04:38 PM

Why Kath is the discussion not interesting or amusing enough? :-)

har har....:p

Beauty inspires us, it inspires love in us...
Other qualities inspire love as well. You could equally argue that beauty inspires lust, as it does in many people. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone professing to "love" anybody else based on physical appearance alone.

Yes, I have read that book a while ago. But I think she made it into something "political" but fails understand humanity have always been fascinated with Beauty and is nothing to do with what "political" idea of what Beauty is. Beauty is about the Symmetry of the Form - the rest is just details.
I believe the political part arises from the way society seems to value appearances over other qualities. Often the images used in advertising and in movies have been altered with photographic enhancements, flattering lighting and digitized improvements, thus presenting a "standard" that is near impossible to live up to. You posted pictures of Angelina Jolie. Do you suppose those pictures to be spontaneous...meaning do you think she stumbled out of bed looking like that, or did she undergo a makeup session, lighting check, airbrushing and so on. I worked as a makeup artist and I can tell you that makeup can make a huge difference in someone's appearance, never mind the touching up and enhancing of pictures that can be achieved.

I'm not really sure if perfect symmetry is the key to ultimate beauty. Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.
I agree with this. I think there is a difference between someone who is from an aesthetic viewpoint "beautiful" and someone who is from a personal viewpoint "appealing".

I can admire a beautiful appearance, as I admire a work of art. To find someone attractive to me in a more personal sense requires a bit more than a "flawless" symmetry of facial feature.

Now for example Robert Redford is an older film star in the US. He was always described as an extremely handsome man, and he is. I can admire his symmetrical facial features, but on a personal level his appearance simply bores me. I like offbeat and interesting over "perfect" any day of the week.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/Celebrity-Image-Robert-Redford-2312.jpg

Many people might describe John Malkovich as ugly...he certainly isn't classically handsome, but I find him far more interesting to look at than Redford's bland handsomeness.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/kathycf/killingfields39.jpg

*edit*

I can agree that symmetry plays a role but i truly believe that 'other details' (preferences) are more important.
There is another man on this thread and he just said that he does't find Angelina so attractive as you do ..... and we cannot say one of you is wrong, can we?
This is where personal preference comes in. Kilted said he found Neve Campbell more appealing than Jolie, and of course nobody can say who is more appealing. Everyone is entitled to their own personal opinions and preferences. In my opinion, the two are both pretty, but I also think Campbell is the more interesting looking one.

Niamh

05-20-2007, 06:11 PM

If that was the case then you would expect people to undergone surgery to create these tiny flaws. But that is never the case. It is usually to remove imperfections that people are prepared to undergo the pain of surgery.

A few centries ago having a beauty spot(mole) on ones face was regarded as beautiful. People use to draw them on there faces, or glue them on so they too could be regarded as beautiful. Even men did it. So people would do things just to have that slight flaw if it became regarded as 'fashionably beautiful'.

Lote-Tree

05-21-2007, 05:04 AM

har har....:p
Other qualities inspire love as well.

Yes of course :-)

You could equally argue that beauty inspires lust, as it does in many people.

Kath let me put a suggestion to you:

I think there is two types of beauty.

One that inspires love and admiration in us and the other inspires lust only.

I have to figure out the difference yet. But I believe one is based on the symmetry of the form and the other on the exaggeration of that form...

I would be extremely suspicious of anyone professing to "love" anybody else based on physical appearance alone.

Love is a strange thing Kath and I shall open a separate thread on this...I believe love is to do with finding your own idea of perfection in someone else...more later on this...

I believe the political part arises from the way society seems to value appearances over other qualities. Often the images used in advertising and in movies have been altered with photographic enhancements, flattering lighting and digitized improvements, thus presenting a "standard" that is near impossible to live up to.

True. But it is something we have always done. Even in Ancient past women did those "enhancing things". Even painting and sculptures from the past reflect this also...

You posted pictures of Angelina Jolie. Do you suppose those pictures to be spontaneous...meaning do you think she stumbled out of bed looking like that, or did she undergo a makeup session, lighting check, airbrushing and so on. I worked as a makeup artist and I can tell you that makeup can make a huge difference in someone's appearance, never mind the touching up and enhancing of pictures that can be achieved.

But what does that prove? That we yearn for that perfection of Beauty?

This is where personal preference comes in. Kilted said he found Neve Campbell more appealing than Jolie, and of course nobody can say who is more appealing. Everyone is entitled to their own personal opinions and preferences. In my opinion, the two are both pretty, but I also think Campbell is the more interesting looking one.

I believe both posses Symmetry of Form. Both thus beautiful. The fact that Angelina Jolie does nothing for him - does not mean that they don't posses the beauty of the form...

Lote-Tree

05-21-2007, 06:26 AM

A few centries ago having a beauty spot(mole) on ones face was regarded as beautiful. People use to draw them on there faces, or glue them on so they too could be regarded as beautiful. Even men did it. So people would do things just to have that slight flaw if it became regarded as 'fashionably beautiful'.

Strange - in some Indian cultures...a black mark is put on babies faces to ward of the Evil Eye...

kathycf

05-21-2007, 12:02 PM

I believe both posses Symmetry of Form. Both thus beautiful. The fact that Angelina Jolie does nothing for him - does not mean that they don't posses the beauty of the form...
Where exactly did I say that they both weren't beautiful? I am trying to show how personal preference becomes relevant in how an individual can find one person more beautiful than another. I had quoted Moira in this as well:

I can agree that symmetry plays a role but i truly believe that 'other details' (preferences) are more important.
Let's face it...beauty means different things to different people. It seems you want to have this "objective" measurement of symmetry in beauty and completely ignore the subjective elements that also play a part in how people perceive beauty.

True. But it is something we have always done. Even in Ancient past women did those "enhancing things". Even painting and sculptures from the past reflect this also
That's all fine and good, but the point that I am making is that computer enhancements, special lighting, cosmetic artistry were NOT available until modern times. Even 100 years ago cosmetics could not perform the the illusions that they do today, because of what is available now.

I think there exists in modern society an unhealthy obsession with appearance. Ancient standards of beauty came from Art, today's standards of beauty come from celebrities who are enhanced to within an inch of their lives in all those depictions of "natural" beauty.

Advances in technology are able to create images of impossible perfection and make it seem commonplace. Most people who read through a fashion magazine may not be aware of all the photographic enhancements, cosmetics, lighting and all that other stuff, so they think the image presented to them is natural. Well, it isn't. This bothers me because I have heard teenage girls in the course of my volunteer work say how much they hate themselves because they think that they're ugly since they aren't perfect. That type of thinking leaves scars.

If you want to get an idea of what I mean re: photographic retouching you can view some examples here (http://www.briandilg.com/imaging/qe.htm). You will need to hold your mouse over the picture to see the "before". There are several examples, some subtle and some not so subtle.

Lote-Tree

05-21-2007, 12:29 PM

It seems you want to have this "objective" measurement of symmetry in beauty and completely ignore the subjective elements that also play a part in how people perceive beauty.

I am saying that it is the objective element that we can agree on first and then it is the subjective elements like mark on the chin takes over? :-)

That's all fine and good, but the point that I am making is that computer enhancements, special lighting, cosmetic artistry were NOT available until modern times. Even 100 years ago cosmetics could not perform the the illusions that they do today, because of what is available now.

Yes computers were not available then. But have you seen the Temple Sculptures in the state of Rajastan? - those women don't have realistic physique!

I think there exists in modern society an unhealthy obsession with appearance.

I agree on that. But I think we had this unhealthy obession always...

Niamh

05-21-2007, 12:32 PM

Wow some of those changes are unreal!

Moira

05-21-2007, 12:48 PM

Yes, Kathy, thanks for that link:).
Haven't you seen pictures of celebrities with and without makup? Some pictures are really scary.

manolia

05-21-2007, 01:04 PM

A person's physical appearance does not create kindness, intelligence, integrity, compassion or any other of the host of qualities that might be considered to be desirable, so perhaps we could say in that sense that "beauty is skin deep" and that there are other qualities besides the physical that make a person "beautiful".

:nod: :nod: Very well said!

Physical beauty can attract unwanted attention to a person, make them feel uncomfortable. People make assumptions sometimes about pretty people...that they are vain, or not very bright, or they must be very superficial and only think about their looks.

:nod: :nod: Again, very well said :thumbs_up

Lote i am still waiting for this poll of yours :lol:

That is I find hard to believe. Women are more scruniser of women Beauty than men! :-)

Lote do you know what they say about generalisations? Anyway, i prefer to scutinise men ;)

I like to believe that Beauty has it's own standard. As long as a face has a degree of symmetry I believe majority will find that face attractive.

I don't agree with that either. There are many gorgeous things in nature which lack symmetry ;) .

Perhaps in the future when we have uploaded ourselves into our computer hard-drives - then photoshoping whould be liking putting your make up - then we can all be beautiful :-) I am just joking but I understand what you say..

That would be nice...for those who need it ;) :lol: :lol:

Hey as a Computer Programmer - we have created Instant Messengers - we can have a decent conversation now without ever meeting :-)

But think of internet - here we don't see each other's faces - thus the Beauty Barrier is gone. Only thing we have is how we type our words on our messages and how we express ourselves with words. Internet has level the field between the Body Beautiful and the Body Ugly :-) That is a good thing don't you think?

I am afraid that i didn't make myself clear. Sometimes i write half of what i think :( . I meant that we don't have the same acquaintances so it would be very difficult to compare them and agree to whom we find beautiful and whom not. (As i told you before i think a bit 'foolish' to start comparing hollywood actors).

So you are a Computer Programmer?? I'll blame you the next time i have problems with the software you guys create :lol: :lol:
So let me guess in your free time you play last generation RPG games, your pc screen is wider that your tv screen, you speak the computer lingo that noone around you understands..and when you watch a dvd with your friends you spend the first hour playing with the sound and colour adjustments till everybody fells asleep and you end up watching the movie alone? Sorry, i was describing my brother :D

Lote-Tree

05-21-2007, 02:51 PM

Lote i am still waiting for this poll of yours :lol:

Dear Manolia - I have tried to create one - I just couldn't here on this forum. Can you tell me how to do it?

Lote do you know what they say about generalisations? Anyway, i prefer to scutinise men ;)

It's no generalisations Manolia - I have found women to be more scrutiniser of women than men! And I should know I grew up in a house full of women and I am surrounded by women :-)

I don't agree with that either. There are many gorgeous things in nature which lack symmetry ;) .

Only if you are squint-eyed LOL :-)

That would be nice...for those who need it ;) :lol: :lol:

You can't get enough of beauty :-)

I am afraid that i didn't make myself clear. Sometimes i write half of what i think :(

Then you can improve on that quite easily ;-)

So you are a Computer Programmer?? I'll blame you the next time i have problems with the software you guys create :lol: :lol:

LOL :-) Yes, sure after you have used the "on" button on the computer :-)

So let me guess in your free time you play last generation RPG games, your pc screen is wider that your tv screen, you speak the computer lingo that noone around you understands..and when you watch a dvd with your friends you spend the first hour playing with the sound and colour adjustments till everybody fells asleep and you end up watching the movie alone? Sorry, i was describing my brother :D

LOL :-)

I am not much of a RPG fan though but I have played RPG in the past. I prefer Multi-player death-match games like Quake, Unreal and Halo with friends. It is far more relaxing after a hard days work and more fun than trying to figure what your magic orb can do in a RPG game :-)

And to have a pc screen that is wider than the TV screen is quite useful to a programmer - you can have many viewable documents all at once.

As for watching DVD - I prefer the Cinema Experience myself so no fiddling with the knobs :-)