Wavering Faith

[Neo_Sephiroth]

This is directed at those who has an affiliation with any and/or all kind of religion whatsoever.

Was there ever a time that you doubted your faith? If so, I can only assume it was a time of confusion. I have some questions to ask during this time of wavering faith.

Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

Or, are you still lost and confuse? Still looking?

Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted?

I'm guessing this is a sensitive matter. I apologize in advance for any trouble these questions might cause and/or bring about.

[Hyatt07]

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

A common mis-conception with christians is that they believe you need to go to church every Sunday to be close to God. I went to church for years and felt no spiritual connection to my God. In fact, I was repulsed by those who went to church and acted like little angels, but once they were out of church they were complete hypocrites.

I do not bash those who go to church, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just from personal experience, I feel no greater connection to God when I am in a church. I feel a much stronger connection when I live my life for him. Not just going to worship him in his house.

[Bakiryu]

Since I was born I was educated as catholic, everyone i knew was catholic. but they had no answers to my questions. I read the bibble and I still didn't understand. I asked priests, nuns and feligrese but they just shooed me away.
Then, at about age 10 i grew tired and searched for a religion where i could find reason and meaning. I studied most religions and talked to members of those i could find near me. I questioned and searched Cristianism, Satanism, Islam, Induism, Theoism, African Santeria, Buddism.
I read books about reincarnation and Karma, trying to find a religion that accepted who and who everyone was without trying to change the way they were and calling them sinners.
Then I met a wiccan acolyte who inniciate me and introduce me to the Black Forest Coven.
I finally found what I was looking for and now at 14 and a half I'm a practicing wiccan who believes religion is a matter of searching which path is right for you.
I have been to churches, of course, and find religion but i prefer to believe in the god inside all of us.
I do hope you find answers and a path to guide you.

[Nightshade]

Humm well I suppose Ive been through it a couple of times already and Im only 19. Its not that I dont belive because I do or even that I lack the 'enthusiasim'. Its just sometimes its so easy to get confused with differnet people saying differnt things or when you hit a 'belief block' like Hell. I have problems with the concept of literal Hell, Ive had them for the last decade and I probaly will always have a problem with it, but I accept I guess that if you belive part of somthing you have to belive all of it wheather you like it or not. I suppose he thing that I miss the most is the absaloute rightness that I used to feel, and the loss of it scares me at times. I went to talk this year and the guy was talking about litytle black holes on your soul that stop you from beliveiing fully and I got to wondering well how do you get rid of these spots once youve got them?

I suppose my faith is still there and still strong enough for me and it usually pops up when I need it but its not the same as it was. Im not sure if its growing up and getting cynical ( I once belived Id get to meet peter pan in heaven if I wanted it enough) or 'a crisis of faith' but whatever I just keep hoping that oneday Ill wake up and itll be there again, that nice comfortable certanity.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

A common mis-conception with christians is that they believe you need to go to church every Sunday to be close to God. I went to church for years and felt no spiritual connection to my God. In fact, I was repulsed by those who went to church and acted like little angels, but once they were out of church they were complete hypocrites.

I do not bash those who go to church, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. Just from personal experience, I feel no greater connection to God when I am in a church. I feel a much stronger connection when I live my life for him. Not just going to worship him in his house.

With all this confusion of faith I was thinking the same thing...The living my life part.


Since I was born I was educated as catholic, everyone i knew was catholic. but they had no answers to my questions. I read the bibble and I still didn't understand. I asked priests, nuns and feligrese but they just shooed me away.
Then, at about age 10 i grew tired and searched for a religion where i could find reason and meaning. I studied most religions and talked to members of those i could find near me. I questioned and searched Cristianism, Satanism, Islam, Induism, Theoism, African Santeria, Buddism.
I read books about reincarnation and Karma, trying to find a religion that accepted who and who everyone was without trying to change the way they were and calling them sinners.
Then I met a wiccan acolyte who inniciate me and introduce me to the Black Forest Coven.
I finally found what I was looking for and now at 14 and a half I'm a practicing wiccan who believes religion is a matter of searching which path is right for you.
I have been to churches, of course, and find religion but i prefer to believe in the god inside all of us.
I do hope you find answers and a path to guide you.

I'm glad that you found peace in your path. I hope I and many others find theirs as well.


Humm well I suppose Ive been through it a couple of times already and Im only 19. Its not that I dont belive because I do or even that I lack the 'enthusiasim'. Its just sometimes its so easy to get confused with differnet people saying differnt things or when you hit a 'belief block' like Hell. I have problems with the concept of literal Hell, Ive had them for the last decade and I probaly will always have a problem with it, but I accept I guess that if you belive part of somthing you have to belive all of it wheather you like it or not. I suppose he thing that I miss the most is the absaloute rightness that I used to feel, and the loss of it scares me at times. I went to talk this year and the guy was talking about litytle black holes on your soul that stop you from beliveiing fully and I got to wondering well how do you get rid of these spots once youve got them?

I suppose my faith is still there and still strong enough for me and it usually pops up when I need it but its not the same as it was. Im not sure if its growing up and getting cynical ( I once belived Id get to meet peter pan in heaven if I wanted it enough) or 'a crisis of faith' but whatever I just keep hoping that oneday Ill wake up and itll be there again, that nice comfortable certanity.

I think faith in God is not the problem nowadays...It's the churches that causes the confusion in people that seeks comfort. They are just trying to find their place.

My faith in God is still with me...Possibly always. It's those stupid doubts that cause confusion...I shouldn't have read that cursed book.:flare:

*Sigh*

I guess the blame falls on me as well...Stupid curiosity.:sick:

[weepingforloman]

What book?

[Niamh]

Since I was born I was educated as catholic, everyone i knew was catholic. but they had no answers to my questions. I read the bibble and I still didn't understand. I asked priests, nuns and feligrese but they just shooed me away.
Then, at about age 10 i grew tired and searched for a religion where i could find reason and meaning. I studied most religions and talked to members of those i could find near me. I questioned and searched Cristianism, Satanism, Islam, Induism, Theoism, African Santeria, Buddism.
I read books about reincarnation and Karma, trying to find a religion that accepted who and who everyone was without trying to change the way they were and calling them sinners.
Then I met a wiccan acolyte who inniciate me and introduce me to the Black Forest Coven.
I finally found what I was looking for and now at 14 and a half I'm a practicing wiccan who believes religion is a matter of searching which path is right for you.
I have been to churches, of course, and find religion but i prefer to believe in the god inside all of us.
I do hope you find answers and a path to guide you.

The Spiritualist church has much the same faith as Wiccans, in face it works around it. Most of the membersof the church are people with Psychic ablities and spiritualist healers. I am glad to hear you have found something that answers the question you wanted answers.
I also lost my faith in the church and although i am not a member of this church, many of their beliefs are what i believe. I is nice to know that when i die i will still be here.

[mtpspur]

What a can of worms this thread opens for me? In my early 20s I left 'practicing' Christianity to pursue pleasure--translation girls-- plus I was tired of being babysat by the 'wiser' ones. I hasten to assure you I have reaped the whirlwind several times for those lost years. During that time I always kept a small Christian libtary handy -- to keep up appearances in my own mind that I was Demas running after the way of the world but I was only fooling myself.

My greatest lapses of faith have involved truly believing God loves me UNCONDITIONALLY. After all these years and backslidings and broken promises He still loves me. To be cliche I always held it against God that my personal parental relations sucked--if you can't trust your parents who'se left.

Also the war of the spirit vs the flesh is fought on a regular basis--example--an unhealthy interest in Nicole Kidman--go figure--Does this fascination for her mean I've been folling myself all these years--at least I never claimed sterling purity of thought and activity but you would think I'ld have grownj up by now. Isn't helping when SPurgeon keeps saying the big Christian sinners are the middle aged ones who think they are above it all. Which has led to some crash and burn scenarios.

Does any of this help. Best verse that gets me thru it is Lamentation 3:22--23--It is of the Lord's mercies we are not consumed because His compassions fails not. They are new every mornng. Great is thy faithfulness.

One more point: The key to backsliding and faith wavering is taking your eyes OFF the Lord. Had Peter not gone sightseeing when walking on water but kept his eyes on the Lord Christ the story would have ended differently--yet when Peter hollers a swift and sure personal deliverance from God was the result.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Oddly enough since Nicole left Tom I've been losing interest. Maturity at last????

[Neo_Sephiroth]

What book?

It's a stupid book about cults/religion. My curiousity got the best of me and now my faith is wavering because of it.

I'm not sure I want to say the name of the book.


It is nice to know that when i die i will still be here.

What is this from?


What a can of worms this thread opens for me? In my early 20s I left 'practicing' Christianity to pursue pleasure--translation girls-- plus I was tired of being babysat by the 'wiser' ones. I hasten to assure you I have reaped the whirlwind several times for those lost years. During that time I always kept a small Christian libtary handy -- to keep up appearances in my own mind that I was Demas running after the way of the world but I was only fooling myself.

My greatest lapses of faith have involved truly believing God loves me UNCONDITIONALLY. After all these years and backslidings and broken promises He still loves me. To be cliche I always held it against God that my personal parental relations sucked--if you can't trust your parents who'se left.

Also the war of the spirit vs the flesh is fought on a regular basis--example--an unhealthy interest in Nicole Kidman--go figure--Does this fascination for her mean I've been folling myself all these years--at least I never claimed sterling purity of thought and activity but you would think I'ld have grownj up by now. Isn't helping when SPurgeon keeps saying the big Christian sinners are the middle aged ones who think they are above it all. Which has led to some crash and burn scenarios.

Does any of this help. Best verse that gets me thru it is Lamentation 3:22--23--It is of the Lord's mercies we are not consumed because His compassions fails not. They are new every mornng. Great is thy faithfulness.

One more point: The key to backsliding and faith wavering is taking your eyes OFF the Lord. Had Peter not gone sightseeing when walking on water but kept his eyes on the Lord Christ the story would have ended differently--yet when Peter hollers a swift and sure personal deliverance from God was the result.

Hope this helps.

P.S. Oddly enough since Nicole left Tom I've been losing interest. Maturity at last????

Hmmm...Luckily for me, my faith is strong. Also, the connection that some of the verses in the bible do help. I think I'm regaining some of my faith back.

[Whifflingpin]

Neo_Sephiroth, it may or may not help to realize that you don't have to believe "all or nothing." Accept, maybe, that there are things you "know" to be true, from your own experience or just because of their own rightness. Don't get hung up on trying to believe things just because they happen to be the doctrine of a religious group to which you belong or belonged.

A bit of advice that I found helpful was "in times of doubt, continue to live and act as if the things you doubted were true." So, you may be in doubt as to whether prayers are ever answered - while in doubt, don't debate the issue, just continue to pray, and pray as if prayer were meaningful. You will find the answer soon enough, and when you do, it will be from your own experience, which will mean more to you than logic or books.



Bakiryu: "I have been to churches, of course, and find religion but i prefer to believe in the god inside all of us."

Curiously, I think that comment is an echo of Jesus' teaching, as recorded in the Gospels. He got chased out of religious buildings, and he called religious people painted tombs full of rotting bones, and said "the kingdom of God is within you."

[Niamh]

What is this from?


We are all made of energy and when we die our energy is release, and becomes the life around us. Our spirit remains here on earth, the life we leave becomes the life of the planet and therefore we live forever. Heaven on earth.

[Pendragon]

Yes, I went through a trial by fire. When my genetic bomb went off and I lost control of my mental stability and had to be hospitalized; at first everyone rallied to my cause. Then as it became apparent that this was a life long illness that would require medicine taken every day, adjusted regularly, and seeing a counselor, I was pronounced demon possessed and thrown out. What hurt me worse was my wife and kids were thrown out as well because she refused to leave me.

I couldn't understand this. I had always done my best to preach and sing, and worked a lot with young people, who loved me. I questioned everything, even the existence of God. But I came out of it after some six years with faith intact. I am not the same man. I have much more compassion and more humility. People come to me, and I hold service for them. I was never in it for money anyway. I always had a job, and worked my way. Now, I'm disabled. I never pass an offering plate. They have come and gone. I've seen the place packed out and nigh empty. I keep on.

Don't blame God for the way people who claim to be his children act. That's the best advice I can give you. If a person comes up for a crime, it's not the parents' fault, as a general thing, they are more horrified than anyone else.

God bless.

Pendragon

[Annamariah]

I've been raised to Christianity, and I've never doubted my faith. Of course my faith has changed a bit while I've grown up and started to think about things on my own. I've always believed in God and never doubted His existance. I don't know what the truth is about many things (for example creation vs. evolution, what is hell, is the world coming to an end soon), but it doesn't matter. God knows those things, all I have to do is to believe in Him and His love and live my life as well as I can, trusting His guidance.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hmmm...Amazing.

[grace86]

This is a big thing Neo...

Unlike a lot of people here, I was not born into a religion. My dad was Episcopalian and my mom Catholic, but not practicing.

In 2002, by request of who is now a very dear friend, I went to a Christian concert at a church. I got saved. For the longest time I did not have a church after that though...but I was trying to get there.

From my experience, it is always seems to be that you have more faith at the beginning of your relationship with said God than later. It takes some time to realize that you, and other fellow Christians are still human. Some people get thrown off because of how people treat them who claim they are christians...there are screw ups in every religion.

In trying to find a church, I ran into a couple of those...and I am very sorry Pen for your experiences.

Having found my church, I have my ups and downs. I get my points of doubting. It gets hard sometimes when you recognize that just because you are saved doesn't mean you still won't mess up badly. It just means you can find redemption, mercy, forgiveness and grace for the things you keep messing up. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be better. But as a worship leader, you can run your faith down a lot thinking like that...I used to feel inadequate to be leading a church.

I don't feel inadequate today though because of a conversation I had with my worship leader. He gave me Zephaniah 3:15 (I think) and explained to me my job as a song leader. I don't think that it is necessary to attend church to have faith in God..but in times like that, God gives the fellowship of the church to aid in helping one to realize their worth.

I do not believe in religion or rituals. I believe purely in an intimate relationship with God.

Sorry if it sounded like I preached, for that wasn't my intention. No offense intended for anyone.

[ShoutGrace]

“Those who think they believe in God but do so without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God Himself.” - Madeleine L'Engle

I would recommend just living in accordance with your constitution, continually trying to ascertain the truth in what you encounter, and being honest and open with yourself.

Good luck, Neo.

[Orionsbelt]

I read all of this. For me it seems this way. You once believed something. You read something and it made sense to you. It does not align with what you expected, thought before, or were taught. There is no walking back unless you chose to be dishonest with yourself. You must adjust your belief or your expectations. For me, there is no waiver or loss in any of this just another step in the road. I try to Forget "you should" pay attention to "I am". Don't worry. It'l happen again. Maybe you'll end up closer to where you think you want to be. Maybe you won't..... but then... I've never been one for definite anything. They make me nervous.

Curious to know what you read and the points of interest/conflict... You may not want to say and that is fine.

[Bookworm4Him]

At times I would question my salvation, b/c I didn't feel God talking to me, or just b/c I was having troubles. I would ask God if I was saved, and for confirmation when I realized that if I wasn't saved I wouldn't be begging God to tell me that I was.

Whether going to church is necessary seems to be a big issue. I don't think that it is necessary, but I think it is important. The church is a body of believers who are supposed to strengthen and support one another. I go to an amazing church and I look forward to going every Wed. and Sun. Whenever I am feeling mad at my family or other aquaintances or when I am really down, or just fed up with the world, and then I go to church, I am so refreshed. The pastor's teaching always touches me, and teaches me what I need, and always sets me back on track. Also, the fellowship is awesome. Everyone there cares about you, and what your life is like, and they remember you birthdays, and know whwther you got a haircut or not, and those seem like little things, but they really keep you going. I love my church, and don't know where I would be without it. If I didn't have it, I may still be hanging on to my faith, but it would be very weak.
Unfortunately, in today's world, good churches are hard to come by. Usually, they are full of hypocrites, and once-a-week Christians. Sometimes they even teach false gospel. So if you're struggling w/ your faith, I suggest you look for a strong church support. Somewhere where you can feel the presence of the Almighty. For "where two or more are gathered in My name, there will I be also." Church really helps.

Hope this helps

Sorry, I just can't keep my mouth shut...er...fingers off the keyboard. I just thought off this, and felt like I should post it. This goes with my last post.
As I pointed out earlier, the church is the body of believers, but it's also a family. If you are seperated from your family, it doesn't un-relate you, but you don't grow closer together. But if you are with them, and constantly act as a family, you grow so much closer, especially to your parents. So likewise, if you are with the church, you grow together, but if you are never together, you don't. As to the false churches, I suppose that would be like an annoying older sibling- constantly ignoring you, telling you how you're doing everything wrong, and to "leave me alone" If you don't connect with them, there's discord.

Hope that was worthwhile. :thumbs_up Thanks for your time

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Curious to know what you read and the points of interest/conflict... You may not want to say and that is fine.

I'm assuming you're talking about the book that brought about these doubts?


At times I would question my salvation, b/c I didn't feel God talking to me, or just b/c I was having troubles. I would ask God if I was saved, and for confirmation when I realized that if I wasn't saved I wouldn't be begging God to tell me that I was.

Whether going to church is necessary seems to be a big issue. I don't think that it is necessary, but I think it is important. The church is a body of believers who are supposed to strengthen and support one another. I go to an amazing church and I look forward to going every Wed. and Sun. Whenever I am feeling mad at my family or other aquaintances or when I am really down, or just fed up with the world, and then I go to church, I am so refreshed. The pastor's teaching always touches me, and teaches me what I need, and always sets me back on track. Also, the fellowship is awesome. Everyone there cares about you, and what your life is like, and they remember you birthdays, and know whwther you got a haircut or not, and those seem like little things, but they really keep you going. I love my church, and don't know where I would be without it. If I didn't have it, I may still be hanging on to my faith, but it would be very weak.
Unfortunately, in today's world, good churches are hard to come by. Usually, they are full of hypocrites, and once-a-week Christians. Sometimes they even teach false gospel. So if you're struggling w/ your faith, I suggest you look for a strong church support. Somewhere where you can feel the presence of the Almighty. For "where two or more are gathered in My name, there will I be also." Church really helps.

Hope this helps

Sorry, I just can't keep my mouth shut...er...fingers off the keyboard. I just thought off this, and felt like I should post it. This goes with my last post.
As I pointed out earlier, the church is the body of believers, but it's also a family. If you are seperated from your family, it doesn't un-relate you, but you don't grow closer together. But if you are with them, and constantly act as a family, you grow so much closer, especially to your parents. So likewise, if you are with the church, you grow together, but if you are never together, you don't. As to the false churches, I suppose that would be like an annoying older sibling- constantly ignoring you, telling you how you're doing everything wrong, and to "leave me alone" If you don't connect with them, there's discord.

Hope that was worthwhile. :thumbs_up Thanks for your time


“Those who think they believe in God but do so without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God, and not in God Himself.” - Madeleine L'Engle

I would recommend just living in accordance with your constitution, continually trying to ascertain the truth in what you encounter, and being honest and open with yourself.

Good luck, Neo.

Hmmm...I'm good. That's a pretty deep quote Grace. And Book, thanks for YOUR time. :)

[kiobe]

This is directed at those who has an affiliation with any and/or all kind of religion whatsoever.

Was there ever a time that you doubted your faith? If so, I can only assume it was a time of confusion. I have some questions to ask during this time of wavering faith.

Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

Or, are you still lost and confuse? Still looking?

Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted?

I'm guessing this is a sensitive matter. I apologize in advance for any trouble these questions might cause and/or bring about.

I was raised catholic and went to a catholic school. The first time I questioned my faith and the validity of the religion I was part of was in 3rd grade. We were asked to purchase an item, as I remember it, it was called a scapular. It was a small piece of cloth with a picture of a saint on it that you would ware around your neck. The reasoning behind it was that if you died whlie wareing the item you would be absolved of all sins except for mortal sins. There was another scapular you could purchase, it was twice as expensive, 50 cents, but the warer would be absolved of all sins including mortal sins. Well being a 3rd grader, and not wanting to go to hell for a lousy 25 cents,(I didn't know if I would kill someone on the playground that year) I purchased the more expensive one. But even a 3rd grader can see an ironic connection between money and absolution. If the nuns and the school loved us so much, why didn't they just give the scapulars out to protect us? The money and the amount seemed arbitrary. That is where my sceptisizum began. After reading anything and everything I could get my hands on in the last 42 years I could never go back.

[Neo_Sephiroth]

I was raised catholic and went to a catholic school. The first time I questioned my faith and the validity of the religion I was part of was in 3rd grade. We were asked to purchase an item, as I remember it, it was called a scapular. It was a small piece of cloth with a picture of a saint on it that you would ware around your neck. The reasoning behind it was that if you died whlie wareing the item you would be absolved of all sins except for mortal sins. There was another scapular you could purchase, it was twice as expensive, 50 cents, but the warer would be absolved of all sins including mortal sins. Well being a 3rd grader, and not wanting to go to hell for a lousy 25 cents,(I didn't know if I would kill someone on the playground that year) I purchased the more expensive one. But even a 3rd grader can see an ironic connection between money and absolution. If the nuns and the school loved us so much, why didn't they just give the scapulars out to protect us? The money and the amount seemed arbitrary. That is where my sceptisizum began. After reading anything and everything I could get my hands on in the last 42 years I could never go back.


Wow...That was obvious. About the money part, that is. What's going on now?

[hyperborean]

My faith wavered in my teenage years. I eventually departed ways with roman catholicism and went nietzschian/liberal christian.

[kiobe]

Wow...That was obvious. About the money part, that is. What's going on now?

Hi Neo, well I'm just a regular ol' atheist/naturalist. I've got some funny stories about catholic school though this may not be the right thread. How about you?

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Hi Neo, well I'm just a regular ol' atheist/naturalist. I've got some funny stories about catholic school though this may not be the right thread. How about you?

Well, I'm just a not-so-regular member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[NickAdams]

I'm an athiest, but I attend Quaker meetings from time to time.

[Countess]

>Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

I say I had to lose God to find God; by that I mean I had to lose my parents' construct of God and find God for myself . I believe God is the author of our faith so nothing external can renew it - he gives it to us or doesn't.

>Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted.

If you think, you will doubt. Those who prefer not to think have no doubts, because they strategically avoid anything unsettling.

[kiobe]

Well, I'm just a not-so-regular member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

My mom's side of the family are all Mormon, jack-mormon actually, ya know they drink Tab and let the traveling mormons in to talk but that's the limit of it.


>Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

I say I had to lose God to find God; by that I mean I had to lose my parents' construct of God and find God for myself . I believe God is the author of our faith so nothing external can renew it - he gives it to us or doesn't.

>Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted.

If you think, you will doubt. Those who prefer not to think have no doubts, because they strategically avoid anything unsettling.

Hi there, I'm trying to figure out your last comment. Are you saying it's better not to think because that way life is easier? Or the opposite?


I'm an athiest, but I attend Quaker meetings from time to time.

Nickadams is a bit of an enigma. You are an athiest but in other posts you defend Jesus' teachings and the 10 commandments. Do you see athieisum as somehow compatable with judeo-christian beliefs?

[NickAdams]

Nickadams is a bit of an enigma. You are an athiest but in other posts you defend Jesus' teachings and the 10 commandments. Do you see athieisum as somehow compatable with judeo-christian beliefs?

I don't believe in a diety, but a good philosophy is a good philosophy. Religion has been a cause for war, but it also prevents violence on a larger scale. I feel more comfortable with loved ones walking the street, when I know the fear of God exist. Although I don't believe, I would never try to take another's faith ... because that would be stealing.;)

[kiobe]

I don't believe in a diety, but a good philosophy is a good philosophy. Religion has been a cause for war, but it also prevents violence on a larger scale. I feel more comfortable with loved ones walking the street, when I know the fear of God exist. Although I don't believe, I would never try to take another's faith ... because that would be stealing.;)

The fear of prison time exists, but that doesn't stop people from doing the things that land them in prison. 79% of the U.S. prison inmates are Christian. More people have died in the name of God, than all the governmental wars combined. That's a pretty large scale. Common sence morality prevents violence on a large scale. You don't believe in a God......why are you a good person in spite of that fact?

[NickAdams]

The fear of prison time exists, but that doesn't stop people from doing the things that land them in prison. 79% of the U.S. prison inmates are Christian. More people have died in the name of God, than all the governmental wars combined. That's a pretty large scale. Common sence morality prevents violence on a large scale. You don't believe in a God......why are you a good person in spite of that fact?

If I wasn't good, how could I judge.;)

Common sense morality is based on the Old Testy, is it not?

I don't see the seperation in governmental war and holy ones ... as a citizen of Bush's America ofcourse.

Laws are also based on the Old Testy ... in America atleast.

Opposing religions create anarchy, but within itself it's not to bad. Ofcourse we have the brutal religious parents who bring the wrath of faith onto their children.

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.

[Nasser]

My religion says i ahould believe
without the least doubt, else, im a disbeliever
its simple if you try
no doubts at all
even if ter is any, relegate it to the background
see, you stay a believer when you dont doubt, besides belief itself is most appropriately defined as undoubtfulness!:thumbs_up

[kiobe]

If I wasn't good, how could I judge.;)

You haven't answered my question. And how could you judge what?

[NickAdams]

You haven't answered my question. And how could you judge what?

I'm at work, so I had to cut it short. I just expanded on the last post.

[kiobe]

I'm at work, so I had to cut it short. I just expanded on the last post.

Whatever.

[NickAdams]

Whatever.

Common sense morality is based on the Old Testy, is it not?

I don't see the seperation in governmental war and holy ones ... as a citizen of Bush's America ofcourse.

Laws are also based on the Old Testy ... in America atleast.

Opposing religions create anarchy, but within itself it's not to bad. Ofcourse we have the brutal religious parents who bring the wrath of faith onto their children.

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.

[hyperborean]

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.

I like that one. ;)

[NickAdams]

I like that one. ;)

Here is my personal favorite.

"There are two ways to slide easily through life: to believe everything or to doubt everything. Both ways save us from thinking." - Alfred Korzybski

[weepingforloman]

Common sense morality is based on the Old Testy, is it not?

I don't see the seperation in governmental war and holy ones ... as a citizen of Bush's America ofcourse.

Laws are also based on the Old Testy ... in America atleast.

Opposing religions create anarchy, but within itself it's not to bad. Ofcourse we have the brutal religious parents who bring the wrath of faith onto their children.

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.

American law is not based on the OT law... If it was, women would be forced to go through ritual cleansing after menstruation, people with skin disease would be deported, and homosexual acts would be punished by death.

[NickAdams]

Things can deviate from the base. It's the mixture of religion and politics- church and state has not been seperated. Just replace the word government with God and it's the ideal military state. Not to say America is a military state ... yet.

[kiobe]

Common sense morality is based on the Old Testy, is it not?

I don't see the seperation in governmental war and holy ones ... as a citizen of Bush's America ofcourse.

Laws are also based on the Old Testy ... in America atleast.

Opposing religions create anarchy, but within itself it's not to bad. Ofcourse we have the brutal religious parents who bring the wrath of faith onto their children.

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.

Common sence morality is not based on the old testy. Were there not people walking the earth before it was written? Are you saying that the mulitudes of humans that were here prior to 2500 years ago had no morality that would play the same today? If so, prove it with more than one of your 2 word question replys.
I would like to comment on Bush's America but I've been warned not to talk about politics.
Religion creates opposition. This opposition is dictated by the words written in thier holy books. When the dictate is followed word for word by fundimentalists that act to placate thier God and carry out the responsibilities handed to them by thier God, through the words in thier holy books, an opposition is forever created. By the way that crack in your rear end, it's from sitting on the fence. There's an unfortunate complication when chosing sides, and as much as I don't agree with about 99% of what Redzepplin has to say, my respect for him is absolute because of his unwavering belief in his choice of sides when discussing any issue. You should try it.

[weepingforloman]

Things can deviate from the base. It's the mixture of religion and politics- church and state has not been seperated. Just replace the word government with God and it's the ideal military state. Not to say America is a military state ... yet.

Whether or not politics are influenced by religion is relatively unimportant. In fact, the OT had a very developed, complex criminal code, much better than that of Hammurabi, and to follow most of it would not be a bad move (it includes property rights, punishment for robbery/murder/etc., distinguishes between manslaughter and murder, and actually limited revenge by saying "an eye for an eye," as in the Near East, many cultures accepted manifold vengeance). And, as to the military state? It is a problem that people use the name of God to justify aggression and violence, but that does not mean God is at fault.

[NickAdams]

Common sence morality is not based on the old testy. Were there not people walking the earth before it was written? Are you saying that the mulitudes of humans that were here prior to 2500 years ago had no morality that would play the same today? If so, prove it with more than one of your 2 word question replys.
I would like to comment on Bush's America but I've been warned not to talk about politics.
Religion creates opposition. This opposition is dictated by the words written in thier holy books. When the dictate is followed word for word by fundimentalists that act to placate thier God and carry out the responsibilities handed to them by thier God, through the words in thier holy books, an opposition is forever created. By the way that crack in your rear end, it's from sitting on the fence. There's an unfortunate complication when chosing sides, and as much as I don't agree with about 99% of what Redzepplin has to say, my respect for him is absolute because of his unwavering belief in his choice of sides when discussing any issue. You should try it.

I'm not familiar with the way humans acted 2500 years ago. I know that when some one says a choice between right or wrong is common sense, the OT or the NT would make the same distinction. I know I'v only stated the OT.

Can I not have an unwaivering belief to choose to stradle?
Rocks are thrown over the fence. Not from it.




Whether or not politics are influenced by religion is relatively unimportant. In fact, the OT had a very developed, complex criminal code, much better than that of Hammurabi, and to follow most of it would not be a bad move (it includes property rights, punishment for robbery/murder/etc., distinguishes between manslaughter and murder, and actually limited revenge by saying "an eye for an eye," as in the Near East, many cultures accepted manifold vengeance). And, as to the military state? It is a problem that people use the name of God to justify aggression and violence, but that does not mean God is at fault.

I never blamed God and wouldn't, because I would need a belief in him to site him as a cause. That's what I meant when I said man uses it as a tool.

[weepingforloman]

I meant that, given your unbelief, you should not blame others' belief in God for violence, etc.

[NickAdams]

I meant that, given your unbelief, you should not blame others' belief in God for violence, etc.

Why?
I don't believe God exist, but I know there are those who do.
It's not their belief that can cause violence- I also said that religion has helped mankind avoid violence in many cases- it's those who believe, but misinterpret the bible. Or those who uses others faith, to instigate violence.
It comes down to individuals. I don't think the Bible is the sole reason for violence. But the Bible is like no other book and people take it very seriously, but I don't believe every one who does is an extremist.

[kiobe]

I'm not familiar with the way humans acted 2500 years ago. I know that when some one says a choice between right or wrong is common sense, the OT or the NT would make the same distinction. I know I'v only stated the OT.

Can I not have an unwaivering belief to choose to stradle?
Rocks are thrown over the fence. Not from it.





I never blamed God and wouldn't, because I would need a belief in him to site him as a cause. That's what I meant when I said man uses it as a tool.

Dude, are you a person or a fortune cookie? To straddle is to waiver. Your unwaivering belief strictly limits your ability to straddle. If, as you put it, rocks are thrown over the fence then don't you think sitting on the fence is a rather dangerous place to be? Rocks would be comming from all sides.
You say are not familiar with human nature 2500 years ago but make the assumption that morality is based on writings from that era. Exactly what part of the book of Numbers 31 is morality based?

[Mortis Anarchy]

This is directed at those who has an affiliation with any and/or all kind of religion whatsoever.

Was there ever a time that you doubted your faith? If so, I can only assume it was a time of confusion. I have some questions to ask during this time of wavering faith.

Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

Or, are you still lost and confuse? Still looking?

Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted?

I'm guessing this is a sensitive matter. I apologize in advance for any trouble these questions might cause and/or bring about.


Okay, well I'm Catholic. Well, I went through this period after I dunno...well I just really started questioning a lot of stuff. Well, it began because we had just moved and I was kind of searching for something that would keep me sane. I moved from the middle of somewhere to the middle of snoresville...zzzzz. anyways...but I started researching religions and other stuff, I tend to do this a bit...not always religious...but I found myself wondering why are there so many religions and who is right?! What if it doesn't even exist! Why on earth am I wasting my time! So I started asking a lot of questions at my church. Its funny, because I became really, really fascinated with Angels. I still have pages upon pages and charts of every bit of Angel history I could dig up. Even funnier is the questions I asked my priest, he told me that he couldn't answer, he had never heard of some of the stuff I was asking about. He teases me about it every chance he gets now. Finally, I decided after awhile that it doesn't matter what religion you are but as long as you feel a connection to something and not feel so lost and have someone/something to connect to/talk to(besides people) its okay. I figured that okay, why not just run on faith...not totally. And I'm not saying I'm a hardcore Catholic either. I have some views that are accepted totally, but thats okay. I'm happy. I was just feeling confused and lost and unappreciated...ya know what I mean? Wow this is long!

[Mortis Anarchy]

Opposing religions create anarchy, but within itself it's not to bad. Ofcourse we have the brutal religious parents who bring the wrath of faith onto their children.

I say: if you can be hypnotized, you can be religious. If you can be influenced by suggestion, you are an extremist.


Okay, I'm not sure what you mean by being hypnotized means you can be religious.

[MysticalWriter]

Was there ever a time that you doubted your faith? If so, I can only assume it was a time of confusion. I have some questions to ask during this time of wavering faith.

Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

Or, are you still lost and confuse? Still looking?

Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted?




Was there ever a time that you doubted your faith?
I would say- yes. Why? It is only human to doubt. That is what makes us, well, us! That is one of the many things that seperates man from animal. We have a mind that can ask "Why" We have a mind that can give/take reason. Without this- the evolution theory would be pretty close to perfect. Yes, I have doubted! But it only has brought me closer to God (I am a Baptist). How? I often wonder- is there a God? How do I do I know there is a God?
I research from both the Holy Bible and from outside sources and come to the conclusion that I cannot know that he is real- I must believe. I would rather believe in something that cannot be proven wrong then something that can be proven wrong.

Did you regain and had a renew confidence in your faith? If so, how was your faith renewed?
Haha. How? Through God of course =). But in a more practical sense. I was talking to a friend one night about life after death. What would happen. I talked and I talked- she would ask questions. And I as I was talking to her, explaining everything- I again came to realize that I had no reason to doubt any long and I know that this is real.

Or did you simply found it to be too exhausting and just renouce your religion? No churches. No talk about religion. Nothing.

Or, are you still lost and confuse? Still looking?
Ah! But if I renounce, then I would have been a "sayer" and not a "doer". And I have gained sight once again!

Finally, the doubts. Where did they come from in the first place? When did you first doubted?
Hm, I would say- natural. But also, it is my sin. I think to much! Way to much! Thinking is good, but to much of it= bad! "Do all things in moderation"
I've doubted before I was saved from my sins- years ago. And still now I doubt. Amazing how we return to our follies!