3 words...

[stephofthenight]

what is god?
who is god?
who made god?
where is god?
why is god?
replacement of god?
belife in god?
trust in god?
is god love?
who god loves?

and many other 3 word questions about god...

[stephofthenight]

what is blaspmy
what is doubt
what the diffrence

[weepingforloman]

what is blaspmy
what is doubt
what the diffrence

This one I think I can actually answer. Blasphemy and doubt are different because blasphemy involves actually being sure of God: doubt simply means a weak faith, but blasphemy means knowing who God is, what He is like, and then hating and dishonoring His name.

[stephofthenight]

ok thank you very much

[CountingSheep]

what is good
what is evil

[Redzeppelin]

what is good
what is evil


That which is a reflection of God's character is good; that which is contradictory to God's character is evil.

[Lote-Tree]

what is god?
who is god?
who made god?
where is god?
why is god?
replacement of god?
belife in god?
trust in god?
is god love?
who god loves?

and many other 3 word questions about god...

He is Logos?
He is bogus?

He is invented?
He is demented?

He is Omniscient?
He is Omnipotent?
He is Contradictory!

[weepingforloman]

Nice rhymes Lote.

[Redzeppelin]

God is good.
God is love.
God is compassion.
God is mercy.
God is salvation.
God is peace.
God is understanding.
God is acceptance.
God is hope.
God is joy.
God is just.
God is for you, not against you.
He is reality.

Period.

[ruhbr_ducky]

Well I'am no expert but I'll try to show you what God says about himself,
I'am going to kinda skip around so bear with me.
Who made God? God was never made he has always been in existence and always will which also answers for the replacement of God. He says in Revelation 1:8 I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending,saith the Lord,which is ,and which was ,and which is to come,the Almighty.

Who God loves? God loves every single person that has been, is now and will be. You see, God created us with the specific purpose to love and delight in us. A joint verse to awnser the"Is God Love?" 1 John 4:8-9 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is Love.In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." Meaning that he is Love and that he loved us(meaning every single person)so much that he sent his Son to cover and pay for our sins with his blood and life.

Trust in God? Well I think he answers that one best with his own parable Matthew 7:9-11 "Or what man is there of you ,whom if his son ask bread ,will he give him a stone?Or if he ask a fish ,will you give him a serpent? If ye then,being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your childeren, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" First I want to clarify God isn't a magic genie and shouldn't be treated as so, also God is not some thunder cloud in heaven just waiting for you to goof and hit you with lightening. When you hand your life over to Christ he wants the absolute best for you, that dosen't mean smooth sailing, think of it as refining gold. To refine it gold has to be melted and comes out cleaner,this must be done several times to have a good quality of gold. Trial and hard times in life are the refining stages in life, he only allowes them to make you better.

Well, that is all I have time for now, I will get back and try to finish the others later. Hope I have helped in some small way.:)

[kiobe]

God is good.
God is love.
God is compassion.
God is mercy.
God is salvation.
God is peace.
God is understanding.
God is acceptance.
God is hope.
God is joy.
God is just.
God is for you, not against you.
He is reality.

Period.

Numbers 31. Long but worth reading and reflecting on the statement above.
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.

4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.

5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.

6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.

7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.

8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.

10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.

13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.

14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.

15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.

25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:

27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:

28 And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:

29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

30 And of the children of Israel’s half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.

31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.

32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,

33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,

34 And threescore and one thousand asses,

35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.

36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:

37 And the LORD’S tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.

38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and twelve.

39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD’S tribute was threescore and one.

40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’S tribute was thirty and two persons.

41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD’S heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.

42 And of the children of Israel’s half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,

43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,

44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,

45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,

46 And sixteen thousand persons;)

47 Even of the children of Israel’s half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.

48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:

49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.

52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.

53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

Nice.

[stephofthenight]

wow. im hopeing you copy and pasted from an online bible becuase that is like oober long. but it kinda makes a little bit of since.

but still remailns
who made god
i know it says in john i am the alpha and the amego the begining and the end. but everything has to have a begining. wher did god come from?

[the silent x]

not technically, if everything has to have a beginning, hwo are we here, something that was always here, has to have created us, nothing can come from nothing (i know that sounds kind of contradictory but it's like trying to explain quantum physics when you yourself are only a student) God was always there and always will be there, he has not the same perception of time as we do, to him, a thousand years can pass in a second while a second can pass in a thousand years. we as humans can't percieve this becaus enone of us has ever experienced it, just like no one can imagine the eternal pain that is hell, we can't imagine eternal peace and happiness of heaven.

[stephofthenight]

but god had to start somewhere. just like us, we wouldnt be here without god, right? if we are made in gods image which the bible says that we are, then god is like a person, yet he is immortal? even then thou it leads me to think that god created man, yet is possibly a pesron so what if hevan and hell are right here on earth? what if god is a homless person on the side of the street? and what if satan is a stupid playboy bunni? maybe earth is a holding cell until the big war?

[Redzeppelin]

Numbers 31. Long but worth reading and reflecting on the statement above.
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying...

54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.

Nice.

None of what you quoted disproves anything I said, in-and-of-itself. If it does, you've yet to explain how. Doing so would greatly assist me in formulating a response.

[Bakiryu]

what is god?
god is the great spirit who created the universes

who is god?
the creator, called by many names, neither male or female

who made god?
In the beginning, there was Energy. The Energy was a mixture of the sublime, the material and the etheric fire. The fire contained life and creative thoughts. The Supreme Being used these to create vapor, which eventually condensed into water, earth and air. They combined with the fire and together created physical and spiritual life.

where is god?
everywhere

why is god?
so there is reason, so there's life

replacement of god?
none

belife in god?
different but all the same. many paths that lead to the same source

trust in god?
comes from trust in yourself

is god love?
yes.

who god loves?
everyone and everything, for we are its children.

[stephofthenight]

that all makes since except for the who made god answer,..

[kiobe]

God is good.
God is love.
God is compassion.
God is mercy.
God is salvation.
God is peace.
God is understanding.
God is acceptance.
God is hope.
God is joy.
God is just.
God is for you, not against you.
He is reality.

Period.

Hey, Red. In our many conversations on the subject about God and morality, a kind of dual definition arises again and again. I say that what God directed Moses to do was immoral on many levels. But the feeling I get, and correct me if I am wrong, is that we cannot know God's meaning of morality. Now if that is true wouldn't it be an assumption for you to use man's definition of morality using the descriptive words above since they may or may not be God's definition? If we as men cannot define God, then the words above, that man created, can't define God either.

[stephofthenight]

o wow. confusing.
but reasonably clear...

since we dont know what god considers right how can we as man know what is right, and compare god and what he wants us to do my a standard we dont know???

[kiobe]

o wow. confusing.
but reasonably clear...

since we dont know what god considers right how can we as man know what is right, and compare god and what he wants us to do my a standard we dont know???

okydokey.

[NickAdams]

since we dont know what god considers right how can we as man know what is right, and compare god and what he wants us to do my a standard we dont know???

Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings?

[kiobe]

Ten Commandments and Jesus' teachings?

Hello NickAdams. I'm not so sure that the 10 commandments do exactly what they are "sold" to us, do. The first 5 are nothing more than reminders about who the boss is. The rest of them do help a person, void of any personal decission making skills, decide what's right and wrong in those cases that may apply, but seems to be negated by the punishments for breaking the first eight, all of which is death.

[NickAdams]

If the punishment is death, we will all be punished eventually.

[kiobe]

If the punishment is death, we will all be punished eventually.

Very profound, can't argue with that....but I'll try.
Are you saying that even if we never break any of 10 we are still punished? Isn't there a difference between dieing of old age and being put to death at 15 by the elders of the village because the kid worked on the sabbath?

[NickAdams]

decide what's right and wrong in those cases that may apply, but seems to be negated by the punishments for breaking the first eight, all of which is death.

You said death was the puishment. How could death be a punishment for sin and a reinforcement for the righteous?

[Woland]

We are god
Willing and unwilling
Sacrifice to ourselves

[kiobe]

You said death was the puishment. How could death be a punishment for sin and a reinforcement for the righteous?

I didn't say that death was the punishment, the bible does, I simply pointed it out. Explain how death is a reinforcement for the righteous. Who are the righteous?

[Bookworm4Him]

wow. im hopeing you copy and pasted from an online bible becuase that is like oober long. but it kinda makes a little bit of since.

but still remailns
who made god
i know it says in john i am the alpha and the amego the begining and the end. but everything has to have a begining. wher did god come from?

He didn't come from anywhere. God always was. It's a little confusing, but think about it this way. If God was made, then he wouldn't be supreme, so the thing that made Him would be God. So if you keep doing that all the way up you come to a conclusion. God couldn't have been created.

God is all-powerful. If you have been made by something else, you are not all powerful. Therefore God could not have been made. :thumbs_up :D

[stephofthenight]

umm. ok. if you say so. i dont understand at all.

[Redzeppelin]

Hey, Red. In our many conversations on the subject about God and morality, a kind of dual definition arises again and again. I say that what God directed Moses to do was immoral on many levels. But the feeling I get, and correct me if I am wrong, is that we cannot know God's meaning of morality. Now if that is true wouldn't it be an assumption for you to use man's definition of morality using the descriptive words above since they may or may not be God's definition? If we as men cannot define God, then the words above, that man created, can't define God either.

Clever. I did not say that we cannot know God's morality - of course we can - it's in the Bible for all to see. What we cannot see are all the factors present within the context of a situation that God utilizes to make His decisions. We see a part of the picture and decide that God's choices/behaviors are inappropriate/immoral/whatever; but that judgment was based on incomplete knowledge of all the factors involved; only God knows all the evidence in any case, and His judgment is therefore completely fair and just. We cannot define God except with the language He gave us to define Him with (i.e. the Bible).


Hello NickAdams. I'm not so sure that the 10 commandments do exactly what they are "sold" to us, do. The first 5 are nothing more than reminders about who the boss is. The rest of them do help a person, void of any personal decission making skills, decide what's right and wrong in those cases that may apply, but seems to be negated by the punishments for breaking the first eight, all of which is death.

The off-hand remarks about the first half of the commandments reveals the modern disdain for authority we have. The reality is that without authority, we have anarchy; God establishes the limits of our lives because He knows that by crossing those limits we hazard ourselves; He designed us - He is in the best position to tell us what will and will not harm us. Not honoring He who is worthy of authority and obedience is a serious mistake..


Very profound, can't argue with that....but I'll try.
Are you saying that even if we never break any of 10 we are still punished? Isn't there a difference between dieing of old age and being put to death at 15 by the elders of the village because the kid worked on the sabbath?

It is impossible to not break the commandments - but even if possible, the commandments are not the comprehensive listing of all sins. Attitudes and behaviors inconsistent with the character of God are sin - see the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7).

[stephofthenight]

but if it is impossible for us not to break the commandments why did god create them?

[_Shannon_]

but god had to start somewhere. just like us, we wouldnt be here without god, right? if we are made in gods image which the bible says that we are, then god is like a person, yet he is immortal? even then thou it leads me to think that god created man, yet is possibly a pesron so what if hevan and hell are right here on earth? what if god is a homless person on the side of the street? and what if satan is a stupid playboy bunni? maybe earth is a holding cell until the big war?

God has no beginning he always was. Have you ever read Aristotle's Metaphysics? Liken God to Aristotle's prime mover...

[kiobe]

Clever. I did not say that we cannot know God's morality - of course we can - it's in the Bible for all to see. What we cannot see are all the factors present within the context of a situation that God utilizes to make His decisions. We see a part of the picture and decide that God's choices/behaviors are inappropriate/immoral/whatever; but that judgment was based on incomplete knowledge of all the factors involved; only God knows all the evidence in any case, and His judgment is therefore completely fair and just. We cannot define God except with the language He gave us to define Him with (i.e. the Bible).



The off-hand remarks about the first half of the commandments reveals the modern disdain for authority we have. The reality is that without authority, we have anarchy; God establishes the limits of our lives because He knows that by crossing those limits we hazard ourselves; He designed us - He is in the best position to tell us what will and will not harm us. Not honoring He who is worthy of authority and obedience is a serious mistake..



It is impossible to not break the commandments - but even if possible, the commandments are not the comprehensive listing of all sins. Attitudes and behaviors inconsistent with the character of God are sin - see the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5-7).

Hi Red. I'd like to address the second comment first. Sorry if my remarks seem off-hand but not being a religious person I tend to look at everything objectively. This is the reason the bible and any type of God doesn't make any sence to me. I mean no disrespect by this but God seems a little taken with himself. Now, "if" he did create the universe and he is the greatest of all, what's he worried about? Why keep reminding everyone, I did it. It's me. Love the creator, now! Why use half the tablets to say, 1 I'm the one, 2 I'm the one, 3 I'm the one, 4 I'm the one and 5 I'm the one. People aren't stupid, a believer needs only to be told once who thier God is, and they seem happy with that. To the rest of us it seems overdone, like the way a person acts who is suffering from a praise me syndrome. As far as modern disdain for authority goes, it certinly isn't modern. That is a whole other discussion. Disdain for what authority, and for what reason?

As to your first comment. I think we could go over and over the morality issue again and again but we will always end up with the same questions, so without some sort of progress that leads to, at the very least, different questions it seems to be an impassable issue.

[kiobe]

but if it is impossible for us not to break the commandments why did god create them?

Good question!

[Redzeppelin]

Hi Red. I'd like to address the second comment first. Sorry if my remarks seem off-hand but not being a religious person I tend to look at everything objectively. This is the reason the bible and any type of God doesn't make any sence to me. I mean no disrespect by this but God seems a little taken with himself. Now, "if" he did create the universe and he is the greatest of all, what's he worried about? Why keep reminding everyone, I did it. It's me. Love the creator, now! Why use half the tablets to say, 1 I'm the one, 2 I'm the one, 3 I'm the one, 4 I'm the one and 5 I'm the one. People aren't stupid, a believer needs only to be told once who thier God is, and they seem happy with that. To the rest of us it seems overdone, like the way a person acts who is suffering from a praise me syndrome. As far as modern disdain for authority goes, it certinly isn't modern. That is a whole other discussion. Disdain for what authority, and for what reason?

The primary struggle of humanity is with selfishness; the desire to make life and our relationships an extension of our own urges and desires is very, very strong. Part of God's reason for the 10 commandments was to re-establish with the Jews who He was and their obligations to Him. They had spent roughly 400 years as slaves in a pagan culture (Egypt) and had largely forgotten the nature of the God they served - the God who had chosen them as His special people. That's part of the reason for the emphasis on God's identity. The other reason for the God-centered commandments is their preventative nature: people who are clear on who God is and His pre-eminency have fewer problems in life because a right relationship with God positively influences all our earthly relationships as well as their attitudes towards things, trials, sufferings, etc; if things aren't right with God, then you can bet that your other relationships and attitudes will reflect this problem. Knowing who God is establishes why any other commandments should have any meaning to us whatsoever. That's the short answer. If you want more, I'll be happy to go on.

God's proclaimations are not about ego (which ours are about); they are about reminding people of the source of all life and reality - if people forget that source, they suffer. It is not ego to remind unfaithful, selfish people that ignoring who He is inevitably leads to death. You might call that a show of love: "Hi - it's me, God - creator of all and He who rescued you from 400 years of slavery from a powerful and oppressive enemy: don't forget that only I can give you happiness, salvation, eternal life - things can't, relationships can't, and you yourself cannot - but, if you forget who I am, those other things will quickly take my place and attempt to claim the power that only I have - and if you give in to that temptation, you will lose all."


As to your first comment. I think we could go over and over the morality issue again and again but we will always end up with the same questions, so without some sort of progress that leads to, at the very least, different questions it seems to be an impassable issue.

But you skipped over the fact that I clarified that you and I are talking about different things - you talked about the unknowability of God's morality and I spoke of the unknowability of the context from within which God makes His decisions. There is no impasse when we're talking about two different things.

As far as steph's question about the commandments: Paul tells us clearly in Romans that the law exists to show us our need of God and Christ's redemption - the law shows us how impossible it is to be a good person without the assistance of God. That's why it exists (reading Romans is a great idea for anybody who wishes to understand the relationship of the law and grace to the Christian - I highly recommend it).

[Neo_Sephiroth]

but if it is impossible for us not to break the commandments why did god create them?

Umm...It is possible for us to break the commandments.:sick:

[kiobe]

The primary struggle of humanity is with selfishness; the desire to make life and our relationships an extension of our own urges and desires is very, very strong. Part of God's reason for the 10 commandments was to re-establish with the Jews who He was and their obligations to Him. They had spent roughly 400 years as slaves in a pagan culture (Egypt) and had largely forgotten the nature of the God they served - the God who had chosen them as His special people. That's part of the reason for the emphasis on God's identity. The other reason for the God-centered commandments is their preventative nature: people who are clear on who God is and His pre-eminency have fewer problems in life because a right relationship with God positively influences all our earthly relationships as well as their attitudes towards things, trials, sufferings, etc; if things aren't right with God, then you can bet that your other relationships and attitudes will reflect this problem. Knowing who God is establishes why any other commandments should have any meaning to us whatsoever. That's the short answer. If you want more, I'll be happy to go on.

God's proclaimations are not about ego (which ours are about); they are about reminding people of the source of all life and reality - if people forget that source, they suffer. It is not ego to remind unfaithful, selfish people that ignoring who He is inevitably leads to death. You might call that a show of love: "Hi - it's me, God - creator of all and He who rescued you from 400 years of slavery from a powerful and oppressive enemy: don't forget that only I can give you happiness, salvation, eternal life - things can't, relationships can't, and you yourself cannot - but, if you forget who I am, those other things will quickly take my place and attempt to claim the power that only I have - and if you give in to that temptation, you will lose all."



But you skipped over the fact that I clarified that you and I are talking about different things - you talked about the unknowability of God's morality and I spoke of the unknowability of the context from within which God makes His decisions. There is no impasse when we're talking about two different things.

As far as steph's question about the commandments: Paul tells us clearly in Romans that the law exists to show us our need of God and Christ's redemption - the law shows us how impossible it is to be a good person without the assistance of God. That's why it exists (reading Romans is a great idea for anybody who wishes to understand the relationship of the law and grace to the Christian - I highly recommend it).

"Impossible to be a good person without the assistance of God". What a crock. That is just so wrong. This is perhaps the most judgemental statement I've seen yet. Lets investigate just what makes a person "good". Empathetic. Simpathetic. Mercyful. Honest. Truthfull. And all done without punishment of being killed, as in the bible. Whether or not a person is good or not has absolutly nothing to do with the 10 commandments, as churches are full of followers that are clearly not good people. Just read the papers about the catholic priests that have done unspeakable things. You can't work backwards from, follower of the word, to a good person. You have 2 catagories, good and bad, and if you were to lable people and catagorize them before knowing thier religious or non-religious beliefs, by thier actions over thier lifetime, you would end up with a conucopia of beliefs in both catagories. I don't need anyone to tell me how or more importantly why I should a decent person, nor do the people I have in my life.

[Redzeppelin]

"Impossible to be a good person without the assistance of God". What a crock. That is just so wrong. This is perhaps the most judgemental statement I've seen yet. Lets investigate just what makes a person "good". Empathetic. Simpathetic. Mercyful. Honest. Truthfull. And all done without punishment of being killed, as in the bible. Whether or not a person is good or not has absolutly nothing to do with the 10 commandments, as churches are full of followers that are clearly not good people. Just read the papers about the catholic priests that have done unspeakable things. You can't work backwards from, follower of the word, to a good person. You have 2 catagories, good and bad, and if you were to lable people and catagorize them before knowing thier religious or non-religious beliefs, by thier actions over thier lifetime, you would end up with a conucopia of beliefs in both catagories. I don't need anyone to tell me how or more importantly why I should a decent person, nor do the people I have in my life.

Not sure where all this came from. Christian theology asserts the basic depravity of humanity: we are predisposed to do bad things - which may be as trifling as spreading a salacious piece of gossip all the way up the genocide of an entire race- both ends of the spectrum and everything in between is a sin and a demonstration of our tendency towards evil. The arc of human history argues for this idea - more than it argues for any essential "goodness" in humanity. I never indicated that being a Christian made one a better person. Following the commandments don't make you a good person - the commandments exist 1) as guidelines for a better, happier and healthier life, and 2) as a reminder of our essential inability to be sinless human beings on our own. Again: read through Paul's definition of love in I Corinthians 13 and insert your name for the phrase "love" and see how many of those descriptions accurately fit you (and those you see around you) and how consistently they fit you. As well, see Christ's Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) to get an idea of how sinful the human heart can be. Christ tells us that our motivations and the deep intentions of our heart can be equally as sinful as any external behavior. Are humans capable of good behavior and motivations? Absolutely - but Christian theology says that any good workings that come out of us are a reflection of God's presence in our lives. Without Him there, we would simply be terrible people. Period.

[stephofthenight]

Umm...It is possible for us to break the commandments.:sick:

yeah what i ment was that if it impossible for man to remain sinless and tto keep them all why did he make them? like its impossible not to break them like it is impossible for humans to live withuoud water.

[_Shannon_]

yeah what i ment was that if it impossible for man to remain sinless and tto keep them all why did he make them? like its impossible not to break them like it is impossible for humans to live withuoud water.

As a mommy, this is something I understand very well. It is a wrong view to see things like rules and regulations (ie 10 Commandments, etc.) as restrictive. Good and just rules exist in order to give freedom. True freedom consists not in doing whatever we want (any addict will tell you that they can use whenever they want-but they are not free)- but rather in being able to act rightly- choosing and doing the best in any given circumstance.

As a mom I make rules- I try to make fair and just rules- not so that my children are encumbered by those rules, but rather so they are free to have a great life. I try to make rules so that we can exist peacefully together and thrive as a community of healthfully interdependent people. My kids do not always follow the rules- they are young and are learning about life and interactions with others. As my kids get older, though, they do a much better job in acting within the boundaries because they have been able to live through the consequences of choosing wrongly. Just because the younger ones are unable to follow the rules (because of their level of maturity and understanding) doesn't negate the need for those rules to be in place.

Boundaries are an essential if interpersonal relationships- again not as restrictive- but rather as freeing to have right relationships with others.

I would disagree with the poster who said that man is essentially depraved-- as I believe man to be essentially good, created with immense dignity in the image and likeness of God- we're just imperfect in our likeness of God, but throughout our life through cooperation with grace can be ever more restored unto that likeness.

When we here that God is just- we must remember that this means that He knows us for exactly who we are and where we are at. He knows how weak and impotent we are are to choose rightly as we are growing and maturing--just like me with my children.

[Redzeppelin]

As a mommy, this is something I understand very well. It is a wrong view to see things like rules and regulations (ie 10 Commandments, etc.) as restrictive. Good and just rules exist in order to give freedom. True freedom consists not in doing whatever we want (any addict will tell you that they can use whenever they want-but they are not free)- but rather in being able to act rightly- choosing and doing the best in any given circumstance.

Correct.


As a mom I make rules- I try to make fair and just rules- not so that my children are encumbered by those rules, but rather so they are free to have a great life. I try to make rules so that we can exist peacefully together and thrive as a community of healthfully interdependent people. My kids do not always follow the rules- they are young and are learning about life and interactions with others. As my kids get older, though, they do a much better job in acting within the boundaries because they have been able to live through the consequences of choosing wrongly. Just because the younger ones are unable to follow the rules (because of their level of maturity and understanding) doesn't negate the need for those rules to be in place.

Correct again.


Boundaries are an essential if interpersonal relationships- again not as restrictive- but rather as freeing to have right relationships with others.

You are dead on.


I would disagree with the poster who said that man is essentially depraved-- as I believe man to be essentially good, created with immense dignity in the image and likeness of God- we're just imperfect in our likeness of God, but throughout our life through cooperation with grace can be ever more restored unto that likeness.

Here's where we part ways: if you believe in God, the Bible makes it quite plain that all are sinners, that we inherit a sinful nature from Adam and Eve. As a mother, I assume you became aware of how necessary rules and boundaries are for young children precisely because they will - in the absence of said rules and boundaries - grow up to be self-centered monsters. The egocentric world of the infant must give way to a more other-centered consciousness if we expect the child to get along with others (to ge "good" essentially); much of that training is geared to eliminate the behaviors that lead towards selfish egoism.


When we here that God is just- we must remember that this means that He knows us for exactly who we are and where we are at. He knows how weak and impotent we are are to choose rightly as we are growing and maturing--just like me with my children.

Once again we agree.

[_Shannon_]

My guess is that this is a Catholic/Protestant issue, Red. Me being the former :) I don't believe in total depravity--rather that we are created good- in the image and likeness of God, but that we have a fallen nature- we have concupiscence which leaves us weakened to do what it right and best. Again- probably a Catholic/Protestant area where we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

[Redzeppelin]

My guess is that this is a Catholic/Protestant issue, Red. Me being the former :) I don't believe in total depravity--rather that we are created good- in the image and likeness of God, but that we have a fallen nature- we have concupiscence which leaves us weakened to do what it right and best. Again- probably a Catholic/Protestant area where we'll have to agree to disagree. :)

You have articulated the issue well; I'm a protestant as well, so I guess I should make it clear that I don't believe in the Catholic doctrine of total depravity so much as I do our inherently fallen and selfish human nature. As a father, I've parented long enough to know that kids have low resistance against that selfish fallen nature and that as a parent my job is to provide external boundaries leading to internalized boundaries. We probably agree more than it seems because everything you've said I agree with - but I don't think we're essentially or naturally "good" - that comes by way of our upbringing and the presence of God in our lives.

[_Shannon_]

No- no- I'm Catholic :) Catholics do not believe in total depravity- that comes from Calvin and Luther.

I think where we diverge is that I do believe we are created good- ie, in the image and likeness of God- but through sin have a weakened nature. If I am reading you right- you believe that we are created either as a blank slate (can become good or bad) or that we are created inherently bad-but can become good or stay bad.

Do I have that right?? I sometimes have a mushy brain at this point in the day!

[Redzeppelin]

No- no- I'm Catholic :) Catholics do not believe in total depravity- that comes from Calvin and Luther.

I think where we diverge is that I do believe we are created good- ie, in the image and likeness of God- but through sin have a weakened nature. If I am reading you right- you believe that we are created either as a blank slate (can become good or bad) or that we are created inherently bad-but can become good or stay bad.

Do I have that right?? I sometimes have a mushy brain at this point in the day!


Yeah - I got the depravity/theology wrong - oops. I believe we're born with a predisposition towards sin and that it is through preventative action (boundaries and consequences) with children that we teach them about love and about what being good means; in other words, our default is selfishness, not altruism. I don't believe we're "blank" - we inherited a sinful nature from our first parents.

[_Shannon_]

Red- thanks for clarifying!! :)