Free Will? (This one's for you, Lote) [Archive]

weepingforloman

05-13-2007, 04:26 PM

Okay, so, about what you put in the other thread--true, the omniscient narrator of a story is outside time. True, an omniscient narrator can be assumed to be the author of the story. True, God is omniscient--but not a narrator. The similarities end with the non-temporal character and unlimited knowledge of the characters. Putting aside the concept of a narrator, let's just do a hypothetical: if you knew what someone was going to say, and they said it, did you make them say it? Or, let's pretend for a minute that "psychics" are actually clairvoyant. If a psychic used this clairvoyance to see the moment and nature of your death, does that mean he caused your death?

ennison

05-13-2007, 05:29 PM

Coinneach Odhar was reputed to have had second sight. The ability to foretell the future and indeed many of the things he said appear to have come true. Others were almost bound to come true and some can only be explained as having come true by a peculiarly twisted form of logic. It was a Highland belief that coming events cast their shadows before them and those able to read these shadows were specially gifted. However the clairvoyant, if such a person really does exist, is only a messenger. And we shouldn't shoot the messenger. So no he doesn't cause it.

weepingforloman

05-13-2007, 05:31 PM

Niamh

05-14-2007, 09:44 AM

Psychics exist.

weepingforloman

05-14-2007, 09:12 PM

Free will exists because of the forebrain. "god knows this, god knows that, god knows everything, sin this, sin that". It's amazing what the mind could create in order to explain existence.
Okay...

Lote-Tree

05-15-2007, 06:21 AM

Okay, so, about what you put in the other thread--true, the omniscient narrator of a story is outside time. True, an omniscient narrator can be assumed to be the author of the story.

In this context narator and author the same - i.e. they are creators of characters.

True, God is omniscient--but not a narrator.

God is the Creator - He created us. He is both the author and the narator. He places us on here on Earth - our scene and stage - and He knows all our actions - thus there is nothing we can do here out of choice. He created with the choices we will make. Therefore we can't choose anything different. He could have created us with a different set of choices but He chose to create us thus and hence we have no free will to choose anything different.

Putting aside the concept of a narrator, let's just do a hypothetical: if you knew what someone was going to say, and they said it, did you make them say it? Or, let's pretend for a minute that "psychics" are actually clairvoyant. If a psychic used this clairvoyance to see the moment and nature of your death, does that mean he caused your death?

Psychic may know our death. But he is not the creator of the stage where we perform our actions. He is not the initiator of events that leads us to make choices. It is God that is set in motion the Universe where our actions take place. And he knows about all our actions before hand - before we even created and thus are actions are predetermined and we have no free will to choose anything different. We are thus characters in a book.

Hyacinth42

05-15-2007, 06:49 AM

Psychic may know our death. But he is not the creator of the stage where we perform our actions. He is not the initiator of events that leads us to make choices. It is God that is set in motion the Universe where our actions take place. And he knows about all our actions before hand - before we even created and thus are actions are predetermined and we have no free will to choose anything different. We are thus characters in a book.

Just because our actions are predetermined does not mean we have no free will. Obviously we wont do anything different, but we still have free will, we simply use our free will to choose what has already been predetermined. We always have free will, it's just that God knows our choice before we make it.

Lote-Tree

05-15-2007, 07:21 AM

Just because our actions are predetermined does not mean we have no free will.

It does.

Tashtego

05-15-2007, 07:41 AM

Hi, I couldn't resist the topic...

If you accept that thinking and decision making is a physical process that can be observed and presumably someday accurately described, what room is there for free will?

weepingforloman

05-15-2007, 06:59 PM

In this context narator and author the same - i.e. they are creators of characters.

God is the Creator - He created us. He is both the author and the narator. He places us on here on Earth - our scene and stage - and He knows all our actions - thus there is nothing we can do here out of choice. He created with the choices we will make. Therefore we can't choose anything different. He could have created us with a different set of choices but He chose to create us thus and hence we have no free will to choose anything different.

Psychic may know our death. But he is not the creator of the stage where we perform our actions. He is not the initiator of events that leads us to make choices. It is God that is set in motion the Universe where our actions take place. And he knows about all our actions before hand - before we even created and thus are actions are predetermined and we have no free will to choose anything different. We are thus characters in a book.

Okay, while I know that a psychic did not create the world, the point I am trying to make is that God does not force us to do what we do. If He did, God would not be perfect--an impossibility in Christianity. So, you can claim that if you want, but I will never believe that. God did not create us with our choices already in place, but with free will--He equipped us to be smaller versions of Himself, made flesh it's true, but nevertheless, part of being made in the image of God means making decisions, just as God makes decisions. I will advance the conversation however by describing more fully what I believe about will (feel free to counter): originally (at creation) man's will was wholly free. Man fell. Man's will became corrupt, and the high end of the moral spectrum was removed from the will (we can make, at best, neutral choices, at worst, heinous choices). God offers two forms of grace: a.) general grace--the means through which the unbeliever is made capable of good, and b.) specific grace, through which God calls a person to faith in Christ, effectively freeing the will, and enabling it to choose good. In fact, specific grace perfects the will. So why do believers continue to sin? Because the remains of the corrupted flesh overpower the will, which will not be fully able to exert itself until death (because it will no longer have flesh) and unable to exert itself over the body until the general resurrection (because it will then have a redeemed, perfect body). Please explain what you think about free will (I assume you think differently than you have thus far stated--or do you actually believe in God? I couldn't tell for sure).

Lote-Tree

05-16-2007, 05:01 AM

God did not create us with our choices already in place, but with free will

When did we exercise this Free Will?

He equipped us to be smaller versions of Himself, made flesh it's true, but nevertheless, part of being made in the image of God means making decisions, just as God makes decisions.

The very act of creation of us by omniscient God - and don't forget - we did not asked to be born - rendered those decisions meaningless.

originally (at creation) man's will was wholly free.

How so? God knew before hand everything before he created us. Thus very act of creation of man - predetermined his actions.

God creation of us is like the the omniscient narator creating characters in a novel.

Man fell. Man's will became corrupt, and the high end of the moral spectrum was removed from the will (we can make, at best, neutral choices, at worst, heinous choices).

God knew before hand the man will fall. Thus he created us thus that we fall. Predermination.

God offers two forms of grace: a.) general grace--the means through which the unbeliever is made capable of good, and b.) specific grace, through which God calls a person to faith in Christ, effectively freeing the will, and enabling it to choose good.

These offers are meaningless when God created us knowinlgy with the choices we will make. This is predestination.

Please explain what you think about free will

Free Will is being able to Astonish God with the decision you make :-)
Can you Astonish Omniscient God with your Actions?
Nay you can't and that is the rub.

(I assume you think differently than you have thus far stated--or do you actually believe in God? I couldn't tell for sure).

The problem of God's omniscience and man's Free Will have been debated for thousands of years. There is no Resolution to the debate. God's omnipotentence and omniscience makes Free Will a logical impossibility.

But there are a way around it.

1. Reject God's omniscience.
2. God voluntarily Gives up his omniscience so that we have free will.
3. There is One Reality and There is One Will and that One Reality is God and that One Will is God's. In this context omniscience and omnipotence is rendered meaningless terms.

Nightshade

05-16-2007, 02:39 PM

Errr you see the option of God as the reader. Sure he set the ball in motion and controls effecting circumstances but not Human Actions and its case of -and this is it a bit of a silly example I know- Like reading the last page first or better yetr have you ever read Mort by terry pratchet. In Mort there are life books that write as we do things now that is sort of what I mean its like Gods already read the story once and knows whats going to happen He is by His own rules bound. So although he knows what we are oing to do nd all the twists and turns well make He doesnt actually change or make them happen.

if this post makes any sence at all Im very suprised.

Annamariah

05-16-2007, 02:59 PM

Lote-Tree

05-16-2007, 03:56 PM

Errr you see the option of God as the reader.

Yep He is both omniscient author, narator and the only reader of his own works :-)

Sure he set the ball in motion and controls effecting circumstances but not Human Actions

Yep he does. The Law of Causality :-)

But the point He knows everything beforehand. Before you were created he knew what choices you will make.

He could have easily created you with a different set of choices. But he chose to create you - and don't forget - we did not asked to be born - with those choices.

if this post makes any sence at all Im very suprised.

It makes as much as sense as God's omniscience and Man's Free Will :-)

Lote-Tree

05-16-2007, 03:58 PM

I believe that God knows everything, including what we are going to do next

And he created you thus. So no Free Will.

Annamariah

05-16-2007, 05:07 PM

And he created you thus. So no Free Will.
I still do think there is free will, as I tried to explain. Never mind, though, I've no need to argue about this with anyone :D It's not so important a question to me:lol:

But about that Ted Dekker's book, I recommend that you read it if you ever happen to find it somewhere. :)

weepingforloman

05-16-2007, 05:18 PM

I believe that God knows everything, including what we are going to do next, but I also believe that we have free will. I think that God is not trapped in time like we are, I think He's somewhere outside time. I'm not sure if any of you understand what I mean, but that would explain how He knows what our decisions will be without actually making them for us. Does this make any sense?

Well, never mind whether you understood what I meant anyway, 'cause that wasn't my point when I chose to write in this topic :lol: I just remembered a book, which has something to do with this question. Has any of you read Ted Dekker's Blink?

http://teddekker.com/?content=album&album=29358

In that book there is a guy who can see the future, but not just one future. Instead he can see several optional futures, from which he can choose one, depending on what he decides to do next. At first he thinks that several possible futures proves that there is no God, but later he'll get convinced that God does exist after all.

Haven't read the book... What you described is the normal view of many Christian groups, not mine, however. God's grace is the only means through which we do good works, but our sins are a result of our own will. Lote, I just don't see how omniscience removes free will--just because God knows what we will do does not mean He makes us do them. I know that the sun will rise every morning, but I do not make it do so. God knows what will happen, and He may (and often does) choose to influence it, but not always.

And he created you thus. So no Free Will.

Wrong, God created humanity with the inherent power to choose, we are made in God's image which includes making choices. If we could not make choices, there would have been little point in creation--God does not desire to be a puppet master.

Lote-Tree

05-17-2007, 03:49 AM

Lote, I just don't see how omniscience removes free will--just because God knows what we will do does not mean He makes us do them.

The problem is this. He knowingly created us with the choices that we will make. Hence our actions in life are predetermined. He could have easily created us with a different set of choices from the infinite number of choices that is available but he chose us to Create us with a set of choices.

I know that the sun will rise every morning, but I do not make it do so. God knows what will happen, and He may (and often does) choose to influence it, but not always.

God set the ball rolling. He is the First Cause.

Wrong, God created humanity with the inherent power to choose...

When did we choose? Did you choose to be born?

If we could not make choices, there would have been little point in creation--God does not desire to be a puppet master.

Is characters in a novel pointless to the author?

Aiculík

05-17-2007, 09:15 AM

Yep He is both omniscient author, narator and the only reader of his own works :-)

Yep he does. The Law of Causality :-)

But the point He knows everything beforehand. Before you were created he knew what choices you will make.

He could have easily created you with a different set of choices. But he chose to create you - and don't forget - we did not asked to be born - with those choices.

It makes as much as sense as God's omniscience and Man's Free Will :-)

To know our choices "before" he created us, God would have to exist within time. And that is not so. While we live in time, changing a bit every day, God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He is. Because, he is not only omnipotent and omniscient, he's also eternal. "One day is to him like thousand years, and thousand years like one day", as Bible says.

In other words, for God, there is only now. So yes, he knows what our choices are, but not "before" he created us, but because he sees us making them. And that doesn't change the fact that it's us who makes the choices.

God is author and narrator, but we are readers. Ever read the book in which you could choose what will happen next? You know, like "if you want Mr. X to go somewhere, turn to page 60, if you want him to stay where he is, turn to page 85"? Sure, the author knows results of all possible choices, but it's the reader who chooses how the concrete story will look like. It is same with us, only we can't change our mind and do the different choice if we don't like the result. It is true that God created certain set of choices for each of us. But it is us and us only, who shape our "story". Just as the reader cooperates with the author at the creation of the book, so we cooperate with God at creating our lives. We can make it comic book or romantic or real drama. :) God will not limit us in any way.

Lote-Tree

05-17-2007, 09:24 AM

To know our choices "before" he created us, God would have to exist within time. And that is not so. While we live in time, changing a bit every day, God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He is. Because, he is not only omnipotent and omniscient, he's also eternal.

Think of it this way: Omniscient Narator is also outside of time.

When a omniscient narator brings a character into existence - he knows everything about it - all the choices the character will make.

"One day is to him like thousand years, and thousand years like one day", as Bible says.

Here is a contracdiction. If God is eternal and outside of Time - but why the Time Referene one thousand years equals one day in God's day?

So yes, he knows what our choices are, but not "before" he created us

Then He is not OMNISCIENT.

Ever read the book in which you could choose what will happen next?

Here is the conumdrum. God already knew which choice you will make before he created you. On creation of you choice becomes predetermined.

Aiculík

05-17-2007, 09:41 AM

Here is a contracdiction. If God is eternal and outside of Time - but why the Time Referene one thousand years equals one day in God's day?
Because that's just a poetic expression, not exact, objective, mathematical fact. :)

Then He is not OMNISCIENT.
That doesn't have logic.
It means "before" does not exist, not that God is not omniscient.

Here is the conumdrum. God already knew which choice you will make before he created you. On creation of you choice becomes predetermined.
Again - there is no before. It is difficult for humans to think outside of time, because we don't have any experience with such existance. But God doesn't have our limitations.

Lote-Tree

05-17-2007, 10:01 AM

Because that's just a poetic expression, not exact, objective, mathematical fact. :)

LOL :-) This means there can be no literal understanding of scripture :-)

I am all for symbolic and metaphoric understanding of Scripture because literal understanding is untenable...:-)

That doesn't have logic.
It means "before" does not exist, not that God is not omniscient.

We are created. We have a starting point. Just like characters in a book have a starting point.

Again - there is no before. It is difficult for humans to think outside of time, because we don't have any experience with such existance.

Omniscient narator works outside of time. Thus we can think outside of time.

But God doesn't have our limitations.

omnisicient narator does not have any limitations too.

Anyway think about it.

Exhaust all rational thinking and then you will realise that omnipotent and omniscient God and Free Will is a logical impossibility.

But there are ways around this contradiction as I said before...

Redzeppelin

05-17-2007, 10:21 AM

God's knowledge of what exists is infinite and cannot be increased or changed; that said, God cannot know what does not exist to be known; consequently, until our decisions are made, they do not exist to be known; God's intimate knowledge of us allows Him to anticipate perfectly our possible choices, but until our decisions are made, they do not exist to be known by God. That's how free will and God's omniscience work together.

Lote-Tree

05-17-2007, 10:47 AM

Aiculík

05-17-2007, 11:42 AM

LOL :-) This means there can be no literal understanding of scripture :-)
No. It just means that Scripture contains some passages that are poetic and some that are not. :) Because it contains several books written by different authors. There definitely are some pasages that can be understood lieteraly.

We are created. We have a starting point. Just like characters in a book have a starting point.
Yes. We have a starting point. And some end point too. Because we live in time. Unlike God. Our cognition of world is conditioned by time and space. We have to learn things item by item, and it is never perfect knowledge.

God know everything now and here - and he knows it perfectly. If God "forgot" some thing, it would cease to exist. Our lives are constant process; God's being. I AM - that's what God says of himself, how he introduces himself to human.

Omniscient narator works outside of time. Thus we can think outside of time.
But you forgot one thing. Omniscient narrator is not the same thing as the author. :)

If you can think outside time, can you imagine, how would human life look life if only "now" existed for everything that happens? "Now", you are born; now you are making your choices; now, you are sitting behind your monitor thiscussing free will; "now" you are dying... it is all now.

But there is a way for a Christian - or at least for Catholics - to experience this eternality. During transubstation at each mass, Christ's sacrifice and victory is happening in front of us - not again, as if one was not enough. No, it's the very same one that happend two thousands years ago. It is happening right now.

Anyway think about it.
Exhaust all rational thinking and then you will realise that omnipotent and omniscient God and Free Will is a logical impossibility.
I did think about it. I thought about it quite a long time. But obviously I came to quite different results. It's non-existence of free will which is logical impossibility to me. :)

Lote-Tree

05-17-2007, 11:58 AM

No. It just means that Scripture contains some passages that are poetic and some that are not.

Effective poetry is about Metaphor and Symbolism :-)

If God "forgot" some thing, it would cease to exist.

No. It would mean he is not all knowing.

But you forgot one thing. Omniscient narrator is not the same thing as the author. :)

I have explained this before. In the context of our debates it means both the author and narator aswell as the reader.

If you can think outside time, can you imagine, how would human life look life if only "now" existed for everything that happens? "Now", you are born; now you are making your choices; now, you are sitting behind your monitor thiscussing free will; "now" you are dying... it is all now.

For a omniscient narator/author everything is now.

I did think about it. I thought about it quite a long time. But obviously I came to quite different results. It's non-existence of free will which is logical impossibility to me. :)

Omniscience negates that possibility.

There are ways around it.

1. Reject Omniscience.
2. God voluntarily gives up his omniscience.
3. There is One Reality and One Will and we are part of it all. We are the process by which God reveals himself to himself...in this context omniscience has no meaning. This also means that behind all the disconnectedness we see around us - at a deeper level there is unity..just as science is revealing to us that at fundamental level everything is unified...

But if it makes it easy for you to believe in a Free Will and omniscience then that is all well and truly good. But perhaps attempt to accept the logical impossiblity of it all...and view God as the Transcendental Mystery... :-)

Anyway go in peace.

Shalom, Salaam, Shantih and Peace.

Regards,
Lote.

Redzeppelin

05-17-2007, 04:56 PM

So God only knows after we have made the decision?

This is not omniscience.

"Omniscience" means "all-knowing." You cannot know that which does not exist to be known. God knows all there is to know - His knowledge of existence is exhaustive; our decisions - until we make them - remain unknown because they have not been made yet. God's knowlege of the future is more complicated than you wish to see it.

I also made it clear that God's exhaustive and intimate knowlege of us means that His certainty of how we might choose is probably near perfect - but that is not the same as "knowing ahead of time" what we will choose. There is a subtle difference.

Lote-Tree

05-18-2007, 03:40 AM

"Omniscience" means "all-knowing." You cannot know that which does not exist to be known.

Everytime you use the word "cannot" you limit God's omnipotence.

Annamariah

05-18-2007, 10:02 AM

Everytime you use the word "cannot" you limit God's omnipotence.

If God can't give us free will, then doesn't it mean that He's not omnipotent? :lol:

Redzeppelin

05-18-2007, 01:06 PM

Everytime you use the word "cannot" you limit God's omnipotence.

You are ignoring the definition of omnipotence and my explanation; "all-knowing" means that you know all there is to know; it does not imply the power to know that which does not exist to be known. You're applying characteristics to a term that the term does not possess. Knowing that which does not exist to be known is an impossibility and is illogical to boot.

Lote-Tree

05-19-2007, 01:50 PM

If God can't give us free will, then doesn't it mean that He's not omnipotent? :lol:

And as I said many times before Omnipotence and Omniscience are contradictory :-)

Lote-Tree

05-19-2007, 02:12 PM

You are ignoring the definition of omnipotence and my explanation; "all-knowing" means that you know all there is to know; it does not imply the power to know that which does not exist to be known. You're applying characteristics to a term that the term does not possess. Knowing that which does not exist to be known is an impossibility and is illogical to boot.

So before we existed God knew nothing about us?

kiobe

05-19-2007, 11:07 PM

Hmmm...
I was hoping this would go faster...
All right, I'll start by saying that humans originally had free will but have misused it, and therefore caused it to be enslaved to sin...
Someone please say something, the silence is horrifying!!!!!!!!
(That was a joke, so we're clear)

Are we living in a world that has already been scripted?
I moved this from another thread on 5-19-07
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First, I don't believe in a supernatural deity nor do I believe in soothsayers, but twice in my life I've had experiences where I've "seen" something before it happened. The first time was about 25 years ago, my little brother had been arrested for armed robbery of a pharmacy due to a need for coke and heroin, he didn't have the presence of mind to know that they didn't carry those items. I found out about the whole thing later that day and in an attempt to try to understand just where he was coming from and just who he was I went into his bedroom and layed on his bed and tried to figure out how a kid that lived in the same house as the rest of us and slept just 15 feet away from me could be so different. I layed there and cryed on and off for a while, maybe an hour or so, and then above his bedroom door, between the moulding and the celing a picture appeared, as bright as a TV. It was a picture of a bunch of people standing around a coffin, the coffin top was open and I could see my little brother in it. I've only told 2 people about this as it sounds.....odd. But 15 years later my little brother hung himself in the doorway of his bedroom. My dad and grandmother found him. The second time I woke from the most real "dream" I've ever had, but as I reflect on it, it wasn't like a dream, it's hard to explain but dreams eventually dissapate in your memory, this thing has never gone away. I woke up at 5:30 am from this "dream" and was profoundly upset by the overwhelming feeling of pure hatred that I had just experianced. I layed there for about 20 minutes trying to shake off the feeling of being hated with a depth I hope I never know. The dream went like this. I was at an airport, boarding a plane and as I boarded I noticed that the interior of the plane was empty, no seats, no overhead, and the walls of the inside of the plane were like shiny aluminum, except for a long box, on the left side, going the lenght of the plane, shaped like 4 ladders put together. I went to the back of the plane where a tan leather covered bench seat and about 9 people were standing. It was at this time that I had the overwhelming feeling of hatred and for some reason I thought that it was my tan t-shirt, I thought, I should have never worn this shirt. I decided to leave the plane and as I walked to the door I saw another long box thing on the right side of the plane. As I left the plane I woke up from the dream. I told my wife about it later that morning as we got ready for work. I went to work and later that morning the twin towers were hit by the 2 planes. When I saw the images on TV I was shocked by the similarity of the 2 boxes as compared to the towers, in the plane.
My question is this. Has every act on earth been scripted and we are just here as actors. How is it possible to see something that hasn't happend yet if we have free will? Isn't there a possibility that the act could change?

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Redzeppelin

05-21-2007, 12:40 AM

So before we existed God knew nothing about us?

There is a difference in what God thinks about a being He intends to create and what that being thinks once s/he gets here. God knows what He will create because our creation is a product of His thought; what we decide to do is a product of our thought.

Dante Wodehouse

05-21-2007, 09:08 PM

Say that someone knew exactly what you would be like when you were born. Say that they knew what you would do and they built a road for you to walk on all your life. You walk on it all your life. Does that mean that that roadmaker controlled your life? I find similarities between this and Kafka's Parable of the Law.

cows

05-21-2007, 10:17 PM

ahh how do i delete

Lote-Tree

05-22-2007, 05:27 AM

There is a difference in what God thinks about a being He intends to create and what that being thinks once s/he gets here.

So God thinks about you before he creates you? Like a author conjuring up a character? So he knows about you before you were created :-)

God knows what He will create because our creation is a product of His thought;

Just like a Author/Narator of a book isn't it? And just like characters in a novel have no free will so do we because it is only the will of Author/Narator that exists.

what we decide to do is a product of our thought.

This is not possible.

Redzeppelin

05-22-2007, 03:45 PM

So God thinks about you before he creates you? Like a author conjuring up a character? So he knows about you before you were created :-)

I believe this to be true. Once we exist in God's imagination, we "exist" because His imagination brings us into existence.

Just like a Author/Narator of a book isn't it? And just like characters in a novel have no free will so do we because it is only the will of Author/Narator that exists.

To an extent, yes.

No: we have freewill; the difference is that the fictional character has no reality - s/he is an imaginary construct created by the writer; we have independent existence: once God creates us, we become real; we are endowed with the ability to choose or reject Him.

This is not possible.

Care to elaborate?

billyjack

05-22-2007, 04:46 PM

I believe this to be true. Once we exist in God's imagination, we "exist" because His imagination brings us into existence.

so god has an imagination? what other human qualities does he have?

No: we have independent existence: once God creates us, we become real; we are endowed with the ability to choose or reject Him.

independent existence is a myth created by christianity in order to hold people accountable as independent agents for their actions. while this myth is useful and necessary for socializing a child, a grown up must break lose of it, while still respecting it, if he/she is ever to appreciate this life and not get caught up in spending this life wishing for another life.

clearly we need more than just ourselves to exist. for example, the sun, food, water, et cetera.

[/QUOTE]

Redzeppelin

05-22-2007, 04:52 PM

so god has an imagination? what other human qualities does he have?

According to the Bible, God has feelings just like us; He experiences pain and pleasure like us (why not? we're created in His image).

independent existence is a myth created by christianity in order to hold people accountable as independent agents for their actions. while this myth is useful and necessary for socializing a child, a grown up must break lose of it, while still respecting it, if he/she is ever to appreciate this life and not get caught up in spending this life wishing for another life.

Independent in terms of our choices and behaviors. I don't follow most of your statement and how it has relevance to being an independent being.

clearly we need more than just ourselves to exist. for example, the sun, food, water, et cetera.

Obviously. My statment implied nothing of the sort of thing you're talking about. My statement had to do with free will and morality.

Lote-Tree

05-23-2007, 12:22 PM

I believe this to be true. Once we exist in God's imagination, we "exist" because His imagination brings us into existence.

Just like an author/Narator isn't it? He thought about you before you created you. Hence he knows everything about you. Just like the omniscient author knows everything about the characters.

No: we have freewill; the difference is that the fictional character has no reality - s/he is an imaginary construct created by the writer; we have independent existence: once God creates us, we become real; we are endowed with the ability to choose or reject Him.

Just imagine then that Author/Narator creates an Android. It becomes real. It has independent existence.

Now there are two approaches.

Approach 1 - Author scripts into the Android his set actions and places him on the stage. The android acts out the preset lines. Author's omniscience thus is not diminished. Author knows everything about the Android but Android does not have Free Will.

Approach 2 - Author allows the Android to learn by Experience - like the way a Neural Network learns by Experience. But in this approach the author would not know what line the android will act out. Android has Free Will. But Author loses omniscience.

So Free Will negates omniscience.

Redzeppelin

05-23-2007, 03:30 PM

Just like an author/Narator isn't it? He thought about you before you created you. Hence he knows everything about you. Just like the omniscient author knows everything about the characters.

Only to an extent; God is different than a human author because He can generate actual life (the author creates fictive life). God knows what exists to be known.

Just imagine then that Author/Narator creates an Android. It becomes real. It has independent existence.

You have glossed over a rather important point with the sentence "It becomes real." Only God can create real, actual life (as opposed to the author's fictive "life"). You have given your author God-like powers in order to make your case. That doesn't work.

Now there are two approaches.

Approach 1 - Author scripts into the Android his set actions and places him on the stage. The android acts out the preset lines. Author's omniscience thus is not diminished. Author knows everything about the Android but Android does not have Free Will.

Approach 2 - Author allows the Android to learn by Experience - like the way a Neural Network learns by Experience. But in this approach the author would not know what line the android will act out. Android has Free Will. But Author loses omniscience.

So Free Will negates omniscience.

Your example doesn't work at all because you cannot compare a human author's manipulation of a character to God; God creates human life - a creature with its own ideas, desires, fears, attitudes. This creature is offered a choice: to love God, or to rebel against God. According to the Bible, God desires that we freely choose to love Him (hence the presence of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden; there can be no moral "goodness" without the option to do "bad" - that's what the tree was for: free will); as such, we can only freely love Him if we are free to not love Him. Free will negates omniscience only if it is a clear limiting of God's knowledge; but - as I've said a number of times and you have conveniently ignored - it is no limitation for God to not know what does not exist to be known.

billyjack

05-23-2007, 05:25 PM

we're created in His image)..

or vice versa

Independent in terms of our choices and behaviors. I don't follow most of your statement and how it has relevance to being an independent being.
)..

our choices and behaviors are just as dependent on our social, ecological, political, economical, religious, and psychological environment as our "physical self" is dependent on the sun, food, and shelter. thus the idea of an independent agent is grounded in a line of thought that ignores these unbreakeable relations and, instead, pretends we live in seperation

Obviously. My statment implied nothing of the sort of thing you're talking about. My statement had to do with free will and morality.
)..[/QUOTE]

free will exist only with a certain degree of ignorance to natural relations. morality is conventional. once again, both are useful for socializing the young. however, when morality is placed on the same level as the absolute, the god, then you've mistaken the profane for the sacred.

Redzeppelin

05-23-2007, 05:50 PM

or vice versa

No. Wrong.

our choices and behaviors are just as dependent on our social, ecological, political, economical, religious, and psychological environment as our "physical self" is dependent on the sun, food, and shelter. thus the idea of an independent agent is grounded in a line of thought that ignores these unbreakeable relations and, instead, pretends we live in seperation

Influenced by, not dependent upon. We can always choose.

free will exist only with a certain degree of ignorance to natural relations. morality is conventional. once again, both are useful for socializing the young. however, when morality is placed on the same level as the absolute, the god, then you've mistaken the profane for the sacred.

I disagree. Free will exists. It only gets compromised if one is a strict Naturalist - because Naturalism denies that free will can exist.

Lote-Tree

05-24-2007, 05:12 AM

Only to an extent; God is different than a human author because He can generate actual life (the author creates fictive life).

LOL :-) Fictive life in authors imagination? It is same as God bringing into existence in his imagination.

Only God can create real, actual life (as opposed to the author's fictive "life"). You have given your author God-like powers in order to make your case. That doesn't work.

No you are glossing over the point I made which you can't address so you say God is different.

Your example doesn't work at all because you cannot compare a human author's manipulation of a character to God; God creates human life - a creature with its own ideas, desires, fears, attitudes.

I am saying that author does the same in the form of android to highlight the point how omniscience is negated by free will.

This creature is offered a choice: to love God, or to rebel against God.

Author can do the same with his android. But soon as he gives it free will he is no longer omniscient :-)

Free will negates omniscience only if it is a clear limiting of God's knowledge; but - as I've said a number of times and you have conveniently ignored - it is no limitation for God to not know what does not exist to be known.

I think you should study the android analogy more.

Regards,
Lote

Redzeppelin

05-24-2007, 10:01 AM

LOL :-) Fictive life in authors imagination? It is same as God bringing into existence in his imagination.

You remind me why I left our last conversation. Lots of LOL but never really addressing my point; instead, just an endless feedback loop where you ignore the arguments made, claim you have addressed them, then repeat yourself again and again.

The author's creation is never alive except in imagination. We are alive and exist outside of God's imagination. Fictive characters do not think or feel except in the imagination of the author/reader.

No you are glossing over the point I made which you can't address so you say God is different.

No, my friend, I'm sorry; you are making a fallacious argument by comparing a writer to God; the writer exercises a God-like authority over the fictive creation he authors - but God's creation exists in reality. There is a huge difference. Deal with my argument, please.

I am saying that author does the same in the form of android to highlight the point how omniscience is negated by free will.

But your analogy is weak and doesn't compare because you had to give your author the powers of God to make it work. Invalid.

Author can do the same with his android. But soon as he gives it free will he is no longer omniscient :-)

No: the only way the android has free will is if it is a living, sentient being; only God can create those. Your analogy remains invalid.

I think you should study the android analogy more.

There's no need to do so: I've already pointed out at least 3-4x the invalidity of the analogy. Find a better one.

Regards,
Lote

The same, of course.

Scheherazade

05-24-2007, 11:19 AM

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Lote-Tree

05-24-2007, 11:38 AM

The author's creation is never alive except in imagination.

So is God's creation? Until he is created in material form?

We are alive and exist outside of God's imagination.

So can an android exist outside of the authors imagination. We can't create androids yet. But robots are the close bets.

Fictive characters do not think or feel except in the imagination of the author/reader.

So did God's creation?

the writer exercises a God-like authority over the fictive creation he authors - but God's creation exists in reality. There is a huge difference. Deal with my argument, please.

I have by giving you an android analogy. This destroys your argument doesn't it?

But your analogy is weak and doesn't compare because you had to give your author the powers of God to make it work. Invalid.

No. It is valid - they study this in robotics and other fields. It's studies in robotics and other fields that giving us far more insight in what omniscience means and how it is negated by Free Will.

No: the only way the android has free will is if it is a living, sentient being; only God can create those. Your analogy remains invalid.

And if we created those androids- it means death of God?

There's no need to do so: I've already pointed out at least 3-4x the invalidity of the analogy. Find a better one.

It is not invalid. It is been studied in robotics and other fields. If you say it is invalid then that is something you have decided :-)

Shalom, Salaam, Shantih and Peace.

Regards,
Lote.

Redzeppelin

05-24-2007, 01:09 PM

So is God's creation? Until he is created in material form?

No.

So can an android exist outside of the authors imagination. We can't create androids yet. But robots are the close bets.

No. Author's are not engineers or scientists: their creations are imaginative and do not exist in reality. Period.

So did God's creation?

No. You are not dealing with my argument. Please do so.

I have by giving you an android analogy. This destroys your argument doesn't it?

Still not dealing with my argument. I just pointed out how the analogy does not work.

No. It is valid - they study this in robotics and other fields. It's studies in robotics and other fields that giving us far more insight in what omniscience means and how it is negated by Free Will.

No. My argument is waiting to be addressed.

And if we created those androids- it means death of God?

No. Deal with the argument. Please.

It is not invalid. It is been studied in robotics and other fields. If you say it is invalid then that is something you have decided :-)

Shalom, Salaam, Shantih and Peace.

Regards,
Lote.

My argument? PLEASE?