can any christian answer these questions? honestly i just need someone to help me.

[stephofthenight]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

[motherhubbard]

I just responded to this in the will believers unite thread.

[chaplin]

3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

I believe that one's life is not predestined, that everything is subject to your ability and innate privilege to choose what happens. I think there is a difference between God knowing what will you do, and planning or deciding what you will do. Every choice, ultimately is yours alone. That is one of the most important things in life, that your inherent free agency can never be taken away or suspended in any manner.

[weepingforloman]

I believe that one's life is not predestined, that everything is subject to your ability and innate privilege to choose what happens. I think there is a difference between God knowing what will you do, and planning or deciding what you will do. Every choice, ultimately is yours alone. That is one of the most important things in life, that your inherent free agency can never be taken away or suspended in any manner.

There are some who would disagree with you there, Chaplin. I'm one of them. But, admittedly, predestination is a touchy subject. I'll try to state this the way I did on my other thread: God works in you when you do good. God allows your will to take over while your doing something wrong. That's gross oversimplification, and if you really would like to see the full idea behind this, I recommend reading John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion I'm reading it right now, actually.

[kari]

I will answer your question, but understand it is my own opinion and beliefs, and I am sure there are others that will openly disagree.
1. I believe not so much that God has everything mapped or planned out. But that He knows each of us well enough, that He knows what we will do. We all have our own free agency to do as we wish, make choices we want, but He knows us well enough to already know what we will choose and do, even 10 years down the line. As for children getting murdered...I don't believe it to be God's plan, and I don't believe it to be Him allowing it...it is God allowing everyone free agency. Just as you have the free agency to help out your neighbor, someone else has that free agency to do such a horrible crime. Although, I do think it will all work out in the end, and God does have His plans for you, but that we do have an impact on where we turn out. You can't possible think that someone who kills children is what God had planned for that person, or what God even wanted them to consider! That might be an example of someone who probably had much bigger plans in the eyes of God, then what they actually did with their own life.
2. I believe that we all existed together prior to coming to earth, as spirits. God wanted to give us the opportunity to gain a body, to become more like Him. For example, if you look at Adam and Eve...isn't that pretty much how they were before they disobeyed God, and ate the fruit that gave them the knowledge of right and wrong, good and bad? Even though I still believe that was part of His plan as well. Knowing right from wrong, good from bad...happy and sorrow...it allows us to make choices and be tested, maybe such as testing our worthiness. Jesus does make us so, perfect and sinless in the end...as long as we do our part (believe, follow, and try our hardest to be a good person...and Jesus will make up the difference...we will eventually be that sinless and perfect person with God again).
3. As for the comitting suicide question, I am not sure I have a good enough answer for you. The only thing comforting that comes to my mind, is that the "punishment" (use loosely...basically your consiquence of your actions) is never really a set in stone consequence that goes for everyone. We all live our own life, have our own trials, our own successes...our own happiness, our own sorrows. God knows this of each of us, God knows the intentions of our hearts, He also knows that we are each different in that aspect of who we are and the life that we have lived. I know that is not coming out clear enough. For example, if a child grows up in a single parent household, and the parent is constantly doing drugs, and that kind of a lifestyle is exposed to that child from a very young age throughout her childhood. If that child eventually starts to get into drugs him/herself as a teenager...I don't think that God can necessarily blame that person completely for harming their body in that manner. Maybe a bad example even...but basically, God knows we have experiences and face trials and sorrows that can greatly affect us and impact the choices we make. I believe that all those things are taken into consideration. I am not sure I have ever thought about extending that line of thinking to suicide, but it is sure something to think about.

I think if you have had a relationship with God, and really truly want to know these answers...I think the best thing to do is as Him yourself, about specific things like that, to find out His standing on that specifically. I have been in similar shoes, as to the thoughts of being given a doctrine and thinking to myself...that is not the God I know. I think knowing God is a very personal thing, and your feelings and thoughts are something that should weigh in a lot about who God is for/to you. I do, however, think there is a lot more involved in a suicide. Yes, God doesn't give you more than you can handle...but God never expects you to handle something alone. You may be forced to seek comfort in family and friends...and of course God expects you to rely and lean on Him. I believe that God also weighs in on what you KNOW. I don't believe God would give a person less blessings because they hadn't believe in Christ while they were alive if they had never been given the chance to learn and know of Him. I worked in a grade school before, and was once reading something that had a picture of Jesus on the front of it...and I had so many children that hadn't even heard of Jesus before. That experience amazed me, and made me really take notice that there is a lot more to just right and wrong...a lot more about who we are is also taken into consideration. lI hope that made a bit of sense at least...I know I didn't word things the best, but hopefuly something helped!
Kari

[bazarov]

When somebody dies, it's always someone's son or father...
[QUOTE]2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
God haven't made us perfect, he gave us our soul and free will to choose are way of life. Sometimes( actually, very often) we choose wrong.

3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???
That prophecy was changed because if someone is insane or mentally ill; he isn't healthy and normal so his decisions and whole life should be considered at the same way as some normal human. He doesn't know our destiny, we choose it for our selves, he can just help us on our way.


i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

Well, answer on everything is: Mysterious are Lord's ways...Probably doesn't help a lot...

[Lote-Tree]

Omnipotent and omniscient God does not allow for Free Will. Full Stop.

[chaplin]

There are some who would disagree with you there, Chaplin. I'm one of them. But, admittedly, predestination is a touchy subject. I'll try to state this the way I did on my other thread: God works in you when you do good. God allows your will to take over while your doing something wrong.

So you're saying that when you do God's will it is not your choice to do so? That only when you do something against God's will, you are making an independent choice? God "working in you" doesn't mean He made the choice for you.

It seems to me that it has to be all or none. You have complete, immutable free will, or you are merely walking down a pre-paved path with no possible way, no matter how much effort, to move in a different direction.



That prophecy was changed because if someone is insane or mentally ill; he isn't healthy and normal so his decisions and whole life should be considered at the same way as some normal human. He doesn't know our destiny, we choose it for our selves, he can just help us on our way.


Well said Bazarov.


Omnipotent and omniscient God does not allow for Free Will. Full Stop.

I don't see how it definitively does. It does of course complicate, or rather deepen, things, but I don't feel the concept of omniscience unarguably voids the concept of free will.

Perhaps with the conventional definitions of omnipotence and omniscience it does, but with my personally held definitions I feel it doesn't. Those definitions being, that God's omnipotence is not stong enough, or doesn't have the jurisdiction, to allow Him to force you to do anything, at all. And that his omnipotence is not strong enough, or doesn't have the jurisdiction, to destroy you into annihilation, at all, even if it was His will to do so. And since His omnipotence is limited by those factors, than His omniscience doesn't have the "predestination" quality that it seems to.

[stephofthenight]

yep, you lost me i have no clue how this argument relates...

[chaplin]

yep, you lost me i have no clue how this argument relates...

As you can see, I was directly responding to different members posts, and only indirectly to your original post. Nevertheless, it still does relate to the third question you asked on predestination and free will, the larger topics where your questions reside.

[stephofthenight]

ok. w.e im just trying to make since of everything...this crap is over my head...or im just stupid one. why cant christianity be simple? thats what i get for trying to understand a faith

[chaplin]

ok. w.e im just trying to make since of everything...this crap is over my head...or im just stupid one. why cant christianity be simple? thats what i get for trying to understand a faith

Christianity, and every religion, isn't simple because Christianity means something and entails something different to each person. Only pure truth is simple, and really nobody has that.

[Lote-Tree]

I don't see how it definitively does. It does of course complicate, or rather deepen, things, but I don't feel the concept of omniscience unarguably voids the concept of free will.


omniscience means God knows everything. We are are like characters in a book - we have no free will but only the will of the narator. That is omniscience.

[chaplin]

omniscience means God knows everything. We are are like characters in a book - we have no free will but only the will of the narator. That is omniscience.

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post. Too bad, it's so good...

[Lote-Tree]

I guess you didn't read the rest of my post. Too bad, it's so good...

I have read your post.

But we must keep to definition of omiscience as per scriptures - and that is God knows everything.

[stephofthenight]

im getting this tension here...and this confusion...which one does it mean!!!

[kari]

I disagree...believing in God can be simple (from whomever said it can't be). I attended a very strict church for 6 years, and eventually realized...it is so much simpler. All is comes down to is love. Love yourself, love your family, love your neighbor. In my opinion everything else expected of you sprouts from that.
Kari

[stephofthenight]

ok
i wish u guys would make up ur mind...im not sure if im mor confused or if it makes since and im jsut making it difficult

[kari]

Specifically, what are you needing an answer to, or don't understand what is being said? I know you started out with the 3 questions...do you understand any of them now, or are you confused on all of them? On one issue? I would love to try and explain something in a different way, I am just unsure of what is so confusing to you now. Let me know and I will try to help if I can.
Kari

[kari]

Just remember that when you are asking this in a forum such as this, you are going to recieve answers from people of different faiths, different religions, different ideas and opinions. Maybe so confusing because you are hearing these different things and you are hoping to hear one specific answer, is that it? I mentioned somewhere, it will be hard to get that. Everyone has their own personal relationship with God, and each might have different ideas about these topics...you just need to find the anser that feels right for you.
Kari

[Redzeppelin]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e

God does not "plan out your life" - He has a plan for your life, but He needs your cooperation to initiate/continue/complete that plan. Suffering exists because sin exists; sin exists because the only way to have love is to have the free choice not to love; as such, the choice to not love, to not serve God, means that rebellion against God is a legitimate choice - and that choice results in death, suffering, grief.


2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?

Being made in "God's image" means we have a "touch" of divinity in our lives - our creative ability, our ability to think, reason, love - all these things are reflections of God within us - all that is good in humanity is a reflection of God's image in us. No: we cannot be "perfect" and "sinless" because of the Original Sin of Adam & Eve: all human beings are "born into sin."


3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

Suicide is no different than any other sin. As well, God's knowledge of the future is based on His comprehensive knowledge of reality; He knows all that exists; but, since your choices do not exist until decided, they do not exist to be known by God until they are made.


i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

God does not plan for people to take their lives; death may or may not be a part of His plan, but He grieves for our sufferings and sorrows here on earth. That God sent Christ to suffer and die to pay the debt of sin that we all could never pay on our own is God's way of revealing His great love.

[weepingforloman]

I like the general feel of your stuff, Red, but I disagree--God is absolutely sovereign-nothing happens without the will of God. "There is special providence in the fall of a sparrow" (Hamlet)... How much more so for human action? To be clear on this: I am not saying God forces us to sin. I'm saying that God has to give "clearance" for sin to take place. Consider the beginning of the Book of Job: even Satan has to come to God for permission to torment humanity.

[weepingforloman]

ok. w.e im just trying to make since of everything...this crap is over my head...or im just stupid one. why cant christianity be simple? thats what i get for trying to understand a faith

Christianity cannot be simple, for the same reason a person's entire consciousness and psyche cannot be simple--Christianity is a statement about who God is (unalterable facts about Him) and what He has done in the past. I refer you to Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Great book--helped me a lot.

[weepingforloman]

So you're saying that when you do God's will it is not your choice to do so? That only when you do something against God's will, you are making an independent choice? God "working in you" doesn't mean He made the choice for you.

It seems to me that it has to be all or none. You have complete, immutable free will, or you are merely walking down a pre-paved path with no possible way, no matter how much effort, to move in a different direction.



Well said Bazarov.



I don't see how it definitively does. It does of course complicate, or rather deepen, things, but I don't feel the concept of omniscience unarguably voids the concept of free will.

Perhaps with the conventional definitions of omnipotence and omniscience it does, but with my personally held definitions I feel it doesn't. Those definitions being, that God's omnipotence is not stong enough, or doesn't have the jurisdiction, to allow Him to force you to do anything, at all. And that his omnipotence is not strong enough, or doesn't have the jurisdiction, to destroy you into annihilation, at all, even if it was His will to do so. And since His omnipotence is limited by those factors, than His omniscience doesn't have the "predestination" quality that it seems to.

Free will is tricky, but I'll give it a shot. Kay... John Calvin is the source of the theory of will I believe in... Here goes: man was created with free will. Man misused free will to sin. Man's will became enslaved to sin. We have will, but it is bound by sin, and, consequently, not free. Faith in Christ removes all remnants of sin from the spirit (though not the flesh--which is why Christians still do stupid, bad stuff), and it is therefore freed. However, because of the corruption of the flesh, the will is not capable yet of exercising its freedom, so we need to wait for the resurrection to be able to freely will toward good. But: God gives what is called general grace to all people, which enables them to do some good, and specific grace to those He chooses to be followers of Christ (specific grace=faith). So: you follow your enslaved will when you sin, but God restrains that will in instances of goodness. It's not really that inconsistent, it just divides actions into two categories, yours (bad) and God's (good). This will change, just not until the ressurection and redemption of the flesh.

[Redzeppelin]

I like the general feel of your stuff, Red, but I disagree--God is absolutely sovereign-nothing happens without the will of God. "There is special providence in the fall of a sparrow" (Hamlet)... How much more so for human action? To be clear on this: I am not saying God forces us to sin. I'm saying that God has to give "clearance" for sin to take place. Consider the beginning of the Book of Job: even Satan has to come to God for permission to torment humanity.


I do not believe that every single action/occurrence on earth is the "will of God." I suppose I'm looking at "will" as "desire" - so we may be on the same side of the fence if you mean "will" as "He allows." If so - then of course I agree. He allows many things to happen that result in suffering and death. I just dislike the pat statement people give to those who are in terrible grief over - say - the death of a child: saying it's "God's will" is flat out abusive as far as I'm concerned. We need to be more precise because the term "will" does not clearly imply your correct explanation of it.

[weepingforloman]

Oh, yeah, we're talking permissive will, not will of desire--I mean that God ordains all that is (whether through action or permission), but He never desires sin.

[Redzeppelin]

Oh, yeah, we're talking permissive will, not will of desire--I mean that God ordains all that is (whether through action or permission), but He never desires sin.

Then we agree. Good.

[Pendragon]

1.) I’m going to try to put this as simple as I can. If you have a hen house, you know that if you go to that hen house each morning, you have a reasonable expectation of eggs. You after all, take good care of your chickens, feed them right, and so forth. But you don’t know how many eggs on any given day.

God knew the end from the beginning. He knows your choices, and which on you will make. But the choice is still yours. Bad things happen because someone made a bad choice, and innocents get in the line of fire.

2.) “God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth”. It is our spirit that is the Image of God not this Earthly flesh. Paul says the spirit and the flesh are constantly warring against each other, when you want to do good, evil is present.


3.) That isn’t scriptural. All sin except blasphemy can be forgiven.


Short version, and helpful, I hope. God Bless.

Pen

[stephofthenight]

ok...the big thing here is sucide

and if im going to end up giving myself to hell to be with him again

[weepingforloman]

Don't go to Hell. Just bad stuff all around. And besides, if being with your boyfriend again would make you happy, then it wouldn't be possible in Hell.

[stephofthenight]

then what do i do...that is like all i wanted. was someone to tell me what to do. because i honestly just dont know right now. i feel like just giving up ive held myself together and even managed not to cry because of him ever, and i just want to be with him again. is it possible for him to go to hevan...even thou he was slightly satanic and killed himself he was freakin PERFECT

[weepingforloman]

No one can say what happened to your boyfriend. He could be in heaven, no one knows another person's heart completely.

[stephofthenight]

ok thanks...that umm helps me in my umm decision.

[Scheherazade]

Steph,

I think it is very hard for any of us to find these answers for you, especially considering the fact that we have known you for a very short time yet.

However, you might like to try to look at it from a different angle: If you were the one who had decided to commit suicide and your boyfriend were alive today, what would you have liked him to do?

What kind of life would you have wished for him?

Would you have liked him to do the same and commit suicide too?

Spend his life mourning after you?

Refuse to let go?

It is hard to know what others think/thought... But, I believe, if you answer these questions, then you might be able to choose the right path for yourself as well.

Please keep posting and keep in touch :)

[kathycf]

then what do i do...that is like all i wanted. was someone to tell me what to do. because i honestly just dont know right now.
It's would be very hard for someone to tell you what to do. I understand you are going through something horrible right now...

Years ago, I lost a loved one from suicide too, and it seems to bring up so many confusing questions...in addition to the grief and loss felt, there was the endless question of "WHY??!" constantly running through my head. Could I have done something...why didn't I know...why why why. It's awful.

I am sorry to not be of any help...I hope that you can find peace....and by that I mean by living in the best way you know how and coming to peace within yourself.

[Pendragon]

Son, take a real good look at things before you take such a step. I've been there twice, and I bear the scars to prove it. Right now, all you can think about is your loss. That's hard to deal with, and I won't try to sugar-coat it, or tell you I know how you feel. I would have to be you to know that. But people do heal eventually. We are talking legacy of your dear friend now. What will you do to keep his memory alive? You stand on a razor's edge. There could easily be a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I don’t believe he would have you die. Live and make his memory count for something in this world. Write about him: his kindness, love, sorrow, desperation—the things you remember and treasure. And write about that final moment—to show others how it breaks the hearts of those left behind. I’ll pray for you. PM me anytime. Above all, keep on going. Life has meaning somewhere, and if you want yours and his to have meaning, it is now up to you to do it for both of you. God bless.

Pen

[Uncle Lar]

Dear stephofthenight,

I hope this posting finds you well.

You ask very powerful questions. I will do my best to answer them based on my experiences as a Christian and a human being who wants to understand God better.

"1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents?"

In my personal opinion, the sad things you mentioned are a result of Adam and Eve choosing to disobey God. Once Adam and Eve went against God, the world became a much harsher place.

"To Adam he said,
'Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.'"
(Genesis 3:17-19, New International Version)

Shortly after this Original Sin, Cain killed Abel in Genesis Chapter 4:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=4&version=31


"2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?"

That was God's plan, however, Adam and Eve chose to do their will instead of God's will. Since Jesus Christ, who was without sin, died to save humanity from sin and death, a Christian should strive to be "Christlike" or "perfect."


"3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???"

Suicide, in my personal opinion, implies an almost complete lack of trust in God. Life can be extremely difficult, but if I took my life, I would hurt myself, my Parents, my Sister, my Aunts, my Uncles, my Cousins, my Friends, my Acquaintances, my Boss, my Co-Workers, and my future Wife (if it is God's will for me to marry).

ChristianAnswers.net offers very good answers about "What does the Bible say about suicide?": http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y038.html

"i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can..."

stephofthenight, I am very sorry about the loss of your grandfather and your boyfriend. I cannot imagine the pain you must feel. But please keep in mind YOU are a child of God created in God's image. I truly believe if you trust in the Lord and seek to do His will, God will help you deal with anything that comes your way.

I hope what I wrote helps, stephofthenight. I will pray that God will fill you with His Holy Spirit and help you through these trying times.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
(Proverbs 3:5-6, King James Version)

Sincerely,

Uncle Lar

[stephofthenight]

Son, take a real good look at things before you take such a step. I've been there twice, and I bear the scars to prove it. Right now, all you can think about is your loss. Pen

ok. first off i must say that im not a son, and when i found out i carved his name into my wrist, but my idiot parents walked in and sent me away in an abulance. well i dont regret it is the problem...leviticus says that u shouldnt cut yourself to show sadness. and all and i know that it is a sin to disobay the bible, and not to truely regret it. i wrote a paper on him for english, we had to wright about someone who taught us courage, and well after her tearing me to peices she said it was made up...and i slapped her then got expelled for a week for hitting a teacher along with a very nice fine...what a nice responsobility lol, im trying to push on and live like he would have wanted but without him i just dont feel whole.

[Pendragon]

ok. first off i must say that im not a son, and when i found out i carved his name into my wrist, but my idiot parents walked in and sent me away in an abulance. well i dont regret it is the problem...leviticus says that u shouldnt cut yourself to show sadness. and all and i know that it is a sin to disobay the bible, and not to truely regret it. i wrote a paper on him for english, we had to wright about someone who taught us courage, and well after her tearing me to peices she said it was made up...and i slapped her then got expelled for a week for hitting a teacher along with a very nice fine...what a nice responsobility lol, im trying to push on and live like he would have wanted but without him i just dont feel whole.My apologies, I misunderstood, due to the other question you asked about homosexuals. I really should not jump the gun like that, but at least I wasn't judging you for your lifestyle had that been the case. I really beg your pardon.

I've had problems with self-mutallation (as the psychs call it) myself, and bear the scars. I once branded a girl I thought I was loosing's initials into my arm with a red hot coat hanger. Pain meant nothing to me, the loss mean everything. Time does heal, and someone out there can help speed that healing.

Meanwhile, do try to get some professional help. You won't like it. But down the road you will see where it helped. I've been there more than once. I hated ever second of it. I hate the medications. But I know I have to take them. I have three kids that need their daddy, and a wife that needs her husband. I have friends that need their friend and a congregation that needs a preacher. Yeah. It hits without regard to race, gender, or rank.

Still praying for you.

Pen

[Aiculík]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents?

Yes, God has a plan for our life. But he will not live or lives for us. We are free to accept it or to refuse it. We are free to choose what we will do - but everything we do has certain consequences.

For example, let's take a man who voluntarily decides to be a soldier, and voluntarily goes to another country (i.e. he's not defending his own country), knowing that he will have to kill people or that he can be killed. Is it God's fault if he is killed? Is it God's fault if he kills someone? What is God supposed to do, come down from Heaven and step between him and his enemy? Prevent him joining the army? Or simply take away his free will and make him mere toy (reminds me of Clockwork Orange and that didn't end good, either).

Everything we do has impacts not only on our own lives, but also on lives of people arround us. Yes, we can not only refuse God's plan with our own life, but even prevent others from fulfiling it (e.g. by killing them).


2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
But we are perfect. We are perfectly free. Our freedom is so perfect, that we can even choose evil. If we weren't free, we would be only puppets. That is why God endures evil in the world. (Yet, God has his ways how to turn evil into good. Look at Jesus: he was brutally murdered. Is that evil? Yes, surely it is. But his death resulted in salvation of all people. And that is good.)


3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

God plans our lives, but it's us who live them. God knows all our possibilities and results of all our possible choices. But he lets us freely to choose any of them, even if our choice is not the one he would like us to choose. As I said already, everything we do has some consequences. God loves us and so he warns us against some critical ones, but that's all he can do.

To be in "heaven" means to live in God's presence, and to be in "hell" means to live without God. We choose heaven or hell with everything we do. That is why it cannot be changed after death, because God has to respect our free decision. If one kills himself, it's as if he said to God "hey I don't care about the life you gave me and I don't care about you and I don't want to have anything with you again, ever." And God respects it.

[kilted exile]

I've always found that in cases of loss, a lot more can be gained from poetry than the bible. When my first school friend died I would have probably been about 3 years younger than you are, this poem by Edwin Muir resolved a lot more questions than unclear discussions with my minister (at that time I was a regular attender of the church) ever did:

The Labyrinth

Since I emerged that day from the labyrinth,
Dazed with the tall and echoing passages,
The swift recoils, so many I almost feared
I'd meet myself returning at some corner,
Myself or my ghost, for all there was unreal
After the straw ceased rustling and the bull
Lay dead upon the straw and I remained,
Blood -splashed, if dead or alive I could not tell
In the twilight nothingness (I might have been
A spirit seeking his body through the roads
Of intricate Hades) - ever since I came out
To the world, the still fields swift with flowers, the trees
All bright blossom, the little green hills, the sea,
The sky and all in movement under it,
Shepherds and flocks and birds and the young and the old,
(I stared in wonder at the young and the old,
For in the maze time had not been with me;
I had strayed, it seemed, past sun and season and change,
Past rest and motion, for I could not tell
At last if I moved or stayed; the maze itself
Revolved around me on its hidden axis
And swept me smoothly to its enemy,
The lovely world) - since I came out that day,
There have been times when I have heard my footsteps
Still echoing in the maze, and all the roads
That run through the noisy world, decieving streets
That meet and part and meet, and rooms that open
Into each other - and never a final room -
Stairways and corridors and antechambers
That vacantly wait for some great audience,
The smooth sea-tracks that open and close again,
Tracks undiscoverable, indecipherable,
Paths on the earth and tunnels underground,
And bird-tracks in the air - all seemed a part
Of the great labyrinth. And then I'd stumble
In sudden blindness, hasten, almost run,
As if the maze itself were after me
And soon must catch me up. But taking thought,
I'd tell myself, "You need not hurry. This
Is the firm good earth. All roads lie free before you."
But my bad spirit would sneer, "No, do not hurry.
No need to hurry. Haste and delay are equal
In this one world, for there's no exit, none,
No place to come to, and you'll end where you are,
Deep in the centre of the endless maze.

I could not live if this were not illusion.
It is a world, perhaps; but there's another
For once in a dream or trance I saw the gods
Each sitting on the top of his mountain-isle,
While down below the little ships sailed by,
Toy multitudes swarmed in the harbours, shepherds drove
Their tiny flocks to the pastures, marriage feasts
Went on below, small birthdays and holidays,
Ploughing and harvesting, and life and death,
And all permissible, all acceptable,
Clear and secure as in a limpid dream.
But they, the gods, as large and bright as clouds,
Conversed across the sounds in tranquil voices
High in the sky above the untroubled sea,
And their eternal dialogue was peace
Where all these things were woven, and this our life
Was as a chord deep in that dialogue,
As easy utterance of harmonious words,
Spontaneous syllables bodying forth a world.

That was the real world; I have touched it once,
And now shall know it always. But the lie,
The maze, the wild-wood waste of falsehood, roads
That run and run and never reach an end,
Embowered in error - I'd be prisoned there
But that my soul has birdwings to fly free.

Oh these deceits are strong almost as life.
Last night I dreamt I was in the labyrinth,
And woke far on. I did not know the place.

[stephofthenight]

Meanwhile, do try to get some professional help. You won't like it. But down the road you will see where it helped. I've been there more than once. I hated ever second of it. I hate the medications. But I know I have to take them. I have three kids that need their daddy, and a wife that needs her husband. I have friends that need their friend and a congregation that needs a preacher. Yeah. It hits without regard to race, gender, or rank.

lol. im sorry, ive just been throu about 15 therpist in the last 2 years, for the simple reason of none of them think that they are qualified to speak to satan, and the 3 that i went to first i wouldnt say a word. but then i started talking about how i felt and what ive done and they all told me i needed a preist not a therpist because i was beyond there level of help. so i hate therpist they hate me...it works that way. im glad you have your wife and kids to think of. it probably helps keep you sain. well thank you for praying for me it might help.

[stephofthenight]

I've always found that in cases of loss, a lot more can be gained from poetry than the bible.

um yeah ive wrote a couple of poems for him and it just didnt help. umm i kinda find "art work" to help alot more then poetry or as pen put it, self mutulation. im sorry ive always seen it as self expresion thru art, just on yourself, never realy thought about it as mutulation.

[byquist]

Your #2 question is the crucial one, that addresses all other issues. Contemplate, and reaching clarity on that point, and you've licked the tumult to be found in life. CJ did say, "Be ye therefore perfect ...," and he wasn't just whistling Dixie.

[stephofthenight]

huh???

[FireJuggler]

i can feel you sorrow, but to answer your question i am not sure i can do that but, there is a book though that i highly recommend. it is called "Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel; it is about Lee Strobel and his search for the truth. i have read the book and it has helped me with most questions i have had even for my own faith; it does have your questions in it and i pray that you get this book and read it and i hope it answers all your questions

[Pendragon]

Your #2 question is the crucial one, that addresses all other issues. Contemplate, and reaching clarity on that point, and you've licked the tumult to be found in life. CJ did say, "Be ye therefore perfect ...," and he wasn't just whistling Dixie. What this person is saying, and I don't blame you for that "Huh?", is that Christ Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect." I don't understand people's approach sometimes to the Bible, or the use of slang terms for Jesus. The verse is from Matthew, from the Sermon on the Mount, which begins in chapter five. From reading the whole sermon, it becomes clear that we are far from perfect, but working on it, by the Grace of God. The parable of the Potter's House shows that we are unfinished works, and sometimes we get marred or scratched, but instead of throwing us away, He remolds the clay if we don't harden our hearts. “The sacrifices of God are a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” Still soft enough for the Potter to mould, not baked hard. God Bless.

I still am praying.

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/EasterCross.gif

[quasimodo1]

Your grandfather was a preacher, I was a preacher, now my view of evangelistic activity is that it is the height of arrogance. Like the missionaries of the day, they walk onto an island assuming everyone is ignorant and they have the light. They do not have the light, everyone brings her/his own light. quasimodo1

[stephofthenight]

thank you...i think that sometimes peopole forget im 14 and dont understand what they are saying. and thank you much for the explanation

[Pendragon]

thank you...i think that sometimes peopole forget im 14 and dont understand what they are saying. and thank you much for the explanationAnd that is a major roadblock in churches today. Many seem to think that because a young person grew up in a church, they will somehow absorb Bible teaching, by osmosis or something. I've spent the greater part of my own ministry talking to young people, because their own pastors or youth leaders don't have time to listen. It's why I was always welcomed by the people, but not so welcome by church leaders. I received a call just last week from a young lady I haven't seen in a dozen years, still thanking me for being there for her. A young man, now thirty, visited me with the same story. No roses on me, it is what every Christian Minister should do. People are not ignorant, and don't like to be talked down to. If you cannot feel for someone, how can you help him or her? If you consider yourself superior, how can you help him or her? I'm just a man, I admit to my own problems, all I can do is pray and talk to people.

For Steph or anyone who needs it, I'm still praying

Pen

[stephofthenight]

aww thanks. i didnt realize you were a pastor. thats cool where do u prech?

[rsorad3]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

1. "and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle?" - Who told this monstrous falsehood?
"the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents?" - God fearfully and wonderfully created us humans not as (determined) machines, but truly as thinking free will functioning beings, most of the crap that happens to people is of consequence.

2. "if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?" - Evidently, we were blameless before God (Adam and Eve) before the Fall. That's why we needed the Perfect Sacrifice Jesus Christ to redeem us of our sins.

3. "god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly" - I am a bit confused as to where in the Bible it says this. And again if it were so, we have free will! A decision! Genesis 1:28 (NKJV) says "Then God blessed them (man), and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” So as far as the things here on earth, we have control over them (because we are spirits in HUMAN BODIES). Ever thought why God HAD TO send his Son (also Himself)..that is, (why God has to BECOME MAN ) to redeem us! ?Humans are in control over the things that happen here on earth, God has the power! we have the authority...yes the authority Jesus said 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." I don't mean to sound humanist here, I just go by the Word!

[stephofthenight]

that monsterist lie would be in the bible... and most of the other is in liviticus.psalms or romans, those are the main books i look to for my life like advice. we do have controll over the world that we are ruining, yet why does god not just return and take over the world for us and make things perfect. i have a task for everyone who reads the bible, does anyone know where in the bible it talks about jesus going down to hell for us?

[MC.]

Those who commit suicide do not go to hell. Not if they are good people. Usually, people who go so far as to kill themselves are very mentally ill, even if no one knows it.
Many denominations have changed their policies on performing funerals for those who took their own lives in recognition of this shift in thinking.
I believe that my friend's sister is in heaven with your boyfriend.

[jon1jt]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

the answer to your first two questions is: because life would be pretty damn boring that's why. :D question 3 is like asking why a cockroach turns left or right. my suggestion is that we plan our own lives and just try to enjoy.

[Pendragon]

that monsterist lie would be in the bible... and most of the other is in liviticus.psalms or romans, those are the main books i look to for my life like advice. we do have controll over the world that we are ruining, yet why does god not just return and take over the world for us and make things perfect. i have a task for everyone who reads the bible, does anyone know where in the bible it talks about jesus going down to hell for us?Try Rev. 1: 17-20 This may be the verse you want. I will do more checking.

[stephofthenight]

ok my bible is weird but this is what it says for revelations 1:17-20

17.when i saw him, i fell down at his feet like a dead man. he put his right hand on me and said, do not be afraid, i am the first and the last,(18) i am the one who lives; i was dead but look i am alive forever and ever! and i hold the keys to death and to the place of the dead. (19) so write the things you see what is now and what will happen. (20) here is the right and and the seven golden lampstands; the lampstands are the churches and the seben stars are the angels of the seven churches...

i dont know me and jordan my youth director where discussing this and neither of us could find in the bible where it talks about jesus spending time in hell.
thanks.
steph

[Neo_Sephiroth]

I remember passing by that passage that you're looking for but I'll have to look it up.

[Pendragon]

ok my bible is weird but this is what it says for revelations 1:17-20

17.when i saw him, i fell down at his feet like a dead man. he put his right hand on me and said, do not be afraid, i am the first and the last,(18) i am the one who lives; i was dead but look i am alive forever and ever! and i hold the keys to death and to the place of the dead. (19) so write the things you see what is now and what will happen. (20) here is the right and and the seven golden lampstands; the lampstands are the churches and the seben stars are the angels of the seven churches...

i dont know me and jordan my youth director where discussing this and neither of us could find in the bible where it talks about jesus spending time in hell.
thanks.
steph Hummm. KJV. Verse 18: "I am he that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive forevermore, A-men; and have the keys of hell and death." Somehow, I don't think updating the language of the Bible always makes it clearer, as there is a distinction in the KJV between Hell and the grave, but updated versions usually call Hell, as with your Bible "The place of the Dead" or simply "the grave". I don't argue semantics, but the words are different in the original Greek. It can be argued that both refer to the grave, but the one refers to the underworld, what we know as hell.

God bless.

Pen

[There is another about "He lead captivity captive" and also one about holding the keys to "Death, Hell., and the grave". ]

[stephofthenight]

yeah, sometimes i wonder, if when people (since where not perfect) who have translate it have changed it over the years, like a game of telephone it gets slightly changed? i dont know thats just always been somehint ive wondered about. after i master german im thinking of learning hebrew, it would be pretty cooll.

[the silent x]

yeah, sometimes i wonder, if when people (since where not perfect) who have translate it have changed it over the years, like a game of telephone it gets slightly changed? i dont know thats just always been somehint ive wondered about. after i master german im thinking of learning hebrew, it would be pretty cooll.

i think everyone in the christian community is afraid of that. we just have to trust God that he wouldn't do that to His word

[stephofthenight]

i think everyone in the christian community is afraid of that. we just have to trust God that he wouldn't do that to His word

but god didnt translate it, like when he has people write it it was perfect and he oversaw it. but when people translate it to teen bibles and all the other versions how do we know that there not changeing it? i mean what if the bible is totaly diffrent now? what if everything we think is wrong is right and vis versa? i dont know i guess i just tend to think about crazy crap like that. i mean what if our ideal of hevan is the actual hell? or what if everything we have ever been taught to be good and pure is actualy offensive to god? i dont know its weird i probably should drink starbucks at 3am again, because this is what i normaly think about and then i end up asking you guys because i confuse myslef lol.
-steph-

[Pendragon]

aww thanks. i didnt realize you were a pastor. thats cool where do u prech? Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your question; I'm a little absent-minded at times. I was assistant pastor at a Gospel Chapel in the next town for five wonderful years, and traveled the country as an Evangelist more years than that. When I had a complete Nervous Breakdown from a genetic disorder I didn't know I had, I struggled, and the churches I was with cast me out. I tried several other routers, but they all spoke of me as "The brother who is sick." or something of the sort. I couldn't handle the pressure. People come to me here at home, and we hold service, in our sixth year now. Some have come and gone, I buried one of my congregation three years ago. But everything I think I'll quit, someone else calls or knocks on the door. So I continue.

God bless

Pen

[Neo_Sephiroth]

that monsterist lie would be in the bible... and most of the other is in liviticus.psalms or romans, those are the main books i look to for my life like advice. we do have controll over the world that we are ruining, yet why does god not just return and take over the world for us and make things perfect. i have a task for everyone who reads the bible, does anyone know where in the bible it talks about jesus going down to hell for us?

About the going down to hell stuff...I think I might have found some...But I'm not sure it's what you think.

I got a KJV Bible...

John 5:25-29
1 Peter 3:18-22
1 Peter 4:4-6
1 Corinthians 15:29
Acts 10:42
Romans 14:9

If you still want to find out...You might want to check these out.


but god didnt translate it, like when he has people write it it was perfect and he oversaw it. but when people translate it to teen bibles and all the other versions how do we know that there not changeing it? i mean what if the bible is totaly diffrent now? what if everything we think is wrong is right and vis versa? i dont know i guess i just tend to think about crazy crap like that. i mean what if our ideal of hevan is the actual hell? or what if everything we have ever been taught to be good and pure is actualy offensive to god? i dont know its weird i probably should drink starbucks at 3am again, because this is what i normaly think about and then i end up asking you guys because i confuse myslef lol.
-steph-

Since you're young, my advice to you is don't stress it. Surround yourself with positive energy.

[stephofthenight]

thanks...
and i guess i am really young to be worrying about religion or understanding. im sorry.
steph

[NickAdams]

yeah, sometimes i wonder, if when people (since where not perfect) who have translate it have changed it over the years, like a game of telephone it gets slightly changed? i dont know thats just always been somehint ive wondered about. after i master german im thinking of learning hebrew, it would be pretty cooll.

I see the bible as an American translation of Homer's Illiad into prose.

It was passed down orally, then put into books beautifully, then re-disributed for understanding.

[Pendragon]

thanks...
and i guess i am really young to be worrying about religion or understanding. im sorry.
stephNo. While you are young is a good time to be thinking about it. Ecclesiastes 12:1 "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, not the years draw nigh, when thou shall say, I have no pleasure in them." See, you do not know what lies ahead, or what may happen before your time is up here. So the time to settle things with God is while you are feeling the need to do so. I have been to those days when I wished I had never been born, even as Job, but my heart was already settled, and I came out of the Crisis of Faith still believing. Otherwise, I am in agreement with Neo on the verses. My thanks goes to him for the good research.

God Bless

Pen

[Neo_Sephiroth]

thanks...
and i guess i am really young to be worrying about religion or understanding. im sorry.
steph

No, no...It's great that you want to learn and understand. It's just that I don't want you to be confused because there's a lot of clashes in this particular subject. Just be careful and take care of yourself.


No. While you are young is a good time to be thinking about it. Ecclesiastes 12:1 "Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, not the years draw nigh, when thou shall say, I have no pleasure in them." See, you do not know what lies ahead, or what may happen before your time is up here. So the time to settle things with God is while you are feeling the need to do so. I have been to those days when I wished I had never been born, even as Job, but my heart was already settled, and I came out of the Crisis of Faith still believing. Otherwise, I am in agreement with Neo on the verses. My thanks goes to him for the good research.

God Bless

Pen

Thanks, Pen.

[Pendragon]

Quite welcome, Neo. You did the research, and did it well. We must give people roses while they can enjoy them. I confess I have been rather ill of late and I deeply appreciate the efforts of others in fighting the good fight.

God Bless.

Still praying, Steph.

Pen.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/ARose.gif

[Bookworm4Him]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

I have to say hands down, that I do not know the answer to every question about God. Many more intellectual, biblical scholars have devoted their lives to the study of the Bible, to comprehend God, but still can't grasp His awesomeness. But there is one thing I do know for certain, and it can be said in the most simple song.

"Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." What better way to say it?

Now to each point- 1. I believe that God, being all-knowing, knows how our life would play out. I don't think he plans what each person will do. We were created so that we have the choice- whether to serve Him, or not to. He doesn't force us. "Never test us more than we can bear." ? That depends. On our own strength, we can't do anything. But b/c Jesus died and rose again, we don't have to bear that burden on our own. He helps us get through it. I don't know why God allows bad things to happen, other than it was the cause of sin. When sin entered into the world, Cain killed his own brother. Before sin, nothing was bad. One day, all sin will be cast out, and things will be the way they once were. But God does have a purpose in everything He does. Take comfort in that.

2. As I was saying before, we were perfect and sinless. There were no flaws in us. But once sin came into the world, it became our human nature, and that is why we are no longer the way we once were.

3. Not quite sure He puts it that way... Murder, even to yourself, is a sin, but if you are a Christian, it is all washed away. Although most Christians wouldn't kill themselves, sometimes people act on old sins before they consider it. God doesn't make us commit suicide, he lets us choose our own path, and suffer the consequences, or the rewards.

I know the "God lets us choose" stuff sounds a little strange. Why didn't God just make us all saved? Well, if you tell someone to do it, and make them, then you probably aren't going to have their love, or respect. But if they willingly do it, then that just shows how much they love you. God made us to love Him, but forced love isn't love at all. If we do it voluntarily, we show our true love, respect, and devotion for Him. That is why He lets us choose.

Gtg. Please take these words to heart. :)

[Bookworm4Him]

ok...the big thing here is sucide

and if im going to end up giving myself to hell to be with him again

I can't imagine how you feel having to make the choice, but I will tell you this. You may think that if you go to hell you will still be with him, but in reality, it won't be the same. Hell is a place of the devil. It is a place of hate. In other words, there is no love. Love cannot survive there. But there is always hope that he became a Christian before he died. You never can know. But be encouraged in the fact that God loves you much more than anyone else does. He sacrificed his only Son for you. How much love does that show?

[isis-maria]

Well- it seems you never heard or understood the basics of Christian faith.
1.God has given us everything to live a decent life without sorrows and if if did life according to the ideals of Christianity then we wouldn´t have problems like the ones you stated. (The Ten Commandments!)
2.Unfortunatly we are all sinners and far too many of us not just ordinary ones but being obsessed by all ideas of striving for power,money we have turned away from God. - As a personal decision-(Everyone has the chance to return, every day again)

[Bookworm4Him]

As far as the interpretations of the Bible go, I don't think God would allow His word to be corrupted. I know there are a few versions that I'm a liitle leery about (one that was made by a group of feminists who never called God or Jesus a man... I wouldn't read that one) but most are ok. The good old KJV (King James Version) is still the same as it always has been, it hasn't changed one bit. I also use the NKJV (New King James Version) which is basically the same w/ only a few thee and thy's taken out, as well as the NIV, which is the KJV with easier language. Stick to the older, more perdurable (longer lasting) versions
Think about it this way. God gave us the Bible to help us in our Christian walk. It is His Word. He would not let it become corrupted, or we would not know what His will for our lives is.
What version do you have?

PS. I luv Starbucks too! Have you tried their new orange fraps? They're awesome. But I prefer Mountain Dew at three in the morning :D

[stephofthenight]

no i havent but im going to now. lol

[hyperborean]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

Christianity contains many contradictions. That's why "man made rules" and different variations of Christianity exist. Not all Christians believe in predestination. Liberal Christians, for the most part, believe in absolute free will. Others believe God grants man free will but he is allowed to "intervene".

[stephofthenight]

thank you for finaly putting it simply. that makes total since

[amanda_isabel]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

isn't this why they say religion and philosophy will not be compatible? religion-or anything about God, is based on belief, while philosophy, like your questions, is based on reason. but, we don't we try answering them anyway?


to start i was raised in a Chrtisitan hom and in a Christian school, and it's been inculcated in us that God will not Give us problems we can';t face. i guesss we just have different ways of facing them. insanity is one.. it's the mind's way of coping-shutting themselves out.

people lose things to usually make them stronger. besides, seeing them get up after the challenge is inspiring. seeing them wallow in grief is heartbreaking. either way, they were meant to be lessons to other people.

people are in god's image, true, but if we were perfect then why live at all? don't the hang-ups make life so much more interesting? and, the whole death thing kind of does fit in here because without the sadder parts of life, how would we know what happy was? god is supposed to be the only thing perfect, and if we were, then why bow down to him and worship him if we knew what perfect was? more so if we were perfect in ourselves?

regarding the suicide thing... i was wondering the same thing before, but it was more of, if God knew we would sin, why did he create us in the first place? and my teacher answered, 'because he loved us.' and i asked, but he's God with or without us, with or without the love, so why create us? my teacher couldn't answer. (maybe He wanted something to do?) as i said earlier, the suicide thing maybe is meant to teach others something. and suicide is not considered a way of coping because God is supposed to be able to help you cope. suicide is not for man because we belong to God and our lives are not ours, so if they are not ours, what right have we to take it? more so, what right have we to take others'?

but going to heaven... that part i'm not so sure of. no one has ever gone to heaven and come back to our realm, so we really don't know. for all we know suicidal souls are in heaven after all? we are taught that God is a forgiving GOd, maybe he forgave them too?

i'm not sure if i'm making sense, but i hope this gibberish helps anyway...

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[stephofthenight]

aye, inspiring yet confusing. im trying to pick the peices up and move on now and you have helped me out alot....basicly im just going to have to live life through and wait till i die to see if he forgives sucide victms.

[quasimodo1]

Do life with verve and pinache, and live it boldly. Works for me. quasi