Ask a Christian!!!!!!

[weepingforloman]

Okay, hopefully someone actually asks me something:

My idea is that anyone who wants to, whether they're actually curious or trying to, in a Dan Brown-esque way, disprove Christianity, can ask me any question about the faith. Other Christians are welcome to answer to. Give me anything you got, guys:flare:

[Lote-Tree]

Okay, hopefully someone actually asks me something:

My idea is that anyone who wants to, whether they're actually curious or trying to, in a Dan Brown-esque way, disprove Christianity, can ask me any question about the faith. Other Christians are welcome to answer to. Give me anything you got, guys:flare:

Disprove?

Why?

What good it will do for you?

[stephofthenight]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...

[weepingforloman]

Good stuff.
Okay, these are all difficult questions, and I am glad you asked them. I love this kinda stuff. By the way, sorry about your grandfather and boyfriend. That's tough stuff.
1. Murder is a sin. Sin originates from mankind. The problem with people talking about God's great plan is that they mix ideas from different theologies: they combine the idea that God has only good in store for everyone with the (true) statement that God is omnipotent. But, God created us with free will, we used that free will to sin, now we are slaves to sin. We sin because it's our nature, but we don't HAVE to sin. It's still a choice. God does not allow us to always carry out our will (the entire planet would be dead now if He did), but He is still in command. I think that maybe you should consider the fact that death is not the ultimate evil (if you have faith in Christ), and that makes things a little more understandable. But, that probably won't be good enough for you, and I'm not sure it should be. The suicide issue is obviously a sensitive one for you, so I'm sure you won't like hearing what I will say. Sin is in the world: all things that are wrong are a consequence of it, such as disease, war, death, and even suicide. Don't blame God, He did not bring death into the world. We lose men and women in Iraq because war, too, is a consequence of sin.

2. We are made in God's image in that we have will, creative power, intelligence and a definite personhood. We used our will to sin, so we are now sinful.

3. This is the most difficult for me to answer, and probably for you to hear: Okay, so, I am a Calvinist, meaning I believe that no event can be allowed to happen without God's knowledge and consent. If God wished to stop suicide, He could. However, He does, and does frequently. We can't see it, because how can you see an event that doesn't happen? Periodically (frequently, really) God stops restraining our will to sin, allowing us to commit evil acts, including suicide. THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE MAKES US COMMIT SUICIDE. He merely allows us to carry out what is our actual will. Other Christians, who follow different theologies, will give you different answers, but I believe in Calvinism. I know this probably is not helpful at all, and I'm sorry for that. But know that any failure is due to my own inadequacy, not God's inadequacy. Peace and grace.

[kari]

Interesting that you say we can make our own choices, but we can't carry out our own will...that kind of doesn't make sense to me? And that if He did let us, our planet would be dead. Isn't our planet doing pretty bad nowdays? I thought that was because of our doing as well. I believe God does give us free agency, but God of course does have His hand in certain things he chooses to.
So you are 16, I think I read in previous posts? Interesting to see someone so young anxious to debate and discuss religious matters.
Kari

[weepingforloman]

Ok, good comment, but I think I must have phrased this badly: our will is always inclined toward evil (except through faith). We carry out our will when God stops restraining it. This happens all the time (which is why our planet is screwed up--I agree that it is, so does virtually every religion in existence). I guess your view is a pretty common one, regarding God "having His hand in certain things" but I think it is a mistake to attribute inconsistency to God. I think you should either say that everything is ordained and permitted by God, or nothing is. But, that's my opinion. Thanks for the discussion.

[kari]

I just wanted to add...the comment that all sin in the world is what causes disease and whatnot. I am not sure if this is what you meant...but just wanted to add that I don't believe that means because someone has a disease, it is because of their own sins. I think also the topic of war being a sin....I don't think is something you can just flat out say, and it be true from all angles. My hubby is in the military, and I don't feel the work he does to support this war is in any way a sin. If he was deployed and had more of a hand in the war, I also would not view what he does as a sin. I think that topic is something you would (or actually God) would have to access for each individual that was a part of it. Are you someone that believes anyone in the military is sinning for being so?
Kari

[Lote-Tree]

Good stuff.
2. We are made in God's image in that we have will, creative power, intelligence and a definite personhood. We used our will to sin, so we are now sinful.


Omnipotent and Omnisicent God does not allow for Free Will. Full Stop.

[weepingforloman]

Oh, yeah, definitely, disease is not caused by a person's own sin. Absolutely not. Sorry if that was ambiguous. Again, war itself is not a sin (I support the troops), but the need, or perceived need, for war is a RESULT of sin, just like disease. No, I absolutely do not think your husband is sinning by being involved with the military. After all, Jesus and John the Baptist both ministered to Roman soldiers, but never told them to quit the military. Actually, the prototype of the knight is a very Christian idea: a man defending the cause of the just and protecting the innocent. It is very noble, and I have no problem whatsoever with the military. It's just that, in a perfect world, there would never be a cause to go to war. Sorry if I was unclear on that too.


Omnipotent and Omnisicent God does not allow for Free Will. Full Stop.

God still has the power to choose things: if He chooses to allow us free will, He has that ability. He is not hampered by His own power.

[Lote-Tree]

God still has the power to choose things: if He chooses to allow us free will, He has that ability. He is not hampered by His own power.

Still does not work. Free Will negates omniscience.

[weepingforloman]

No, it does not. Knowing and forcing are two different things. Secondly, you seem to ignore the concept of eternity. We perceive time only because we have physical bodies and cannot perceive eternity. God is outside of time because He is wholly spiritual, so He almost sees us doing things. If you know what someone is going to do, do you therefore make them do it? I just don't follow your logic.

[kari]

About the comment that ordained and permitted by God, or nothing is. I really don't think I gave a comment that would need that response? Essentially, I said that God gives us free will. I don't think that God having a hand in things makes that inconsistent. I do feel I have free agency, but I would never not acknowledge God's hand in anything that is good in my life...I know it all comes from Him. I don't find that inconsistent at all. I am not saying that He will let some have free agency, others not...or me have free agancy at certain times. Just because He gives us free agency, doesn't mean He is always sitting on the sidelines having nothing to do with us. If that was so...we wouldn't be talking about Him most likely.
Kari

Oh yeah, and I didn't necessarily mean that you came across thinking those things about disease and war....I was more mentioning the disease for others, that might have thought that...and the war...was just curious what you thought of that pertaining to sins. I have had people come up to and tell me that my husband is a sinner for being in the military. I just wanted to basically see if that was the type of person I was conversing with. Glad to hear not!
Kari

[weepingforloman]

Sorry I didn't get what you meant... I guess I think what I think, you think what you think, and that's that.

[kari]

You will find that to be true more than not when trying to have discussions on religious based topics! :)
Kari

[stephofthenight]

so basicly correct me if im wrong. god doesnt always let us carry out our will, so he controlls us. and at times he does. so he chose to let people die. when he could have stoped them? god of love you say? i dont understand i guess or somthing but honestly if god loved us and wanted what was right for us then he wouldnt take the ppl closete to us. u said not to blame god, u pretty much well convicted him. u said that god does stop us sometimes therforth he could have stoped it had he cared enough. right? not trying to offend anyone its just this doesnt make since to me. a god of love and patience wouldnt have let isa leave me...it just doesnt make since...i miss him...

[weepingforloman]

First of all, if this is gonna hurt you, it might be best just to leave it alone. Second, God doesn't always stop us because what kind of existence is that? Do you really want God to be constantly contradicting or restraining you? Furthermore, there is no real scriptural basis for saying that God actively loves all of us. I won't say that He doesn't love us all, but there is a difference between the love He shows to some and the love He has for us: the one is an active, "verb" love. The other is the more traditional feeling of love: God "loves" us all in that sense because we are made in His image; that which we are made of is noble and good. But God does not love the present state of man in that sense. Furthermore, at a certain point, your boyfriend made the personal decision to take his own life. God did not force it: He stepped back for a moment. Additionally, I can make no judgment on the state of his soul: he may have suffered from debilitating depression or have had other emotional/mental problems. If this is the case, who am I (and who is anyone else) to say he is not with God now? "Judge not lest ye be judged," says God, and "There is only one unforgivable sin, and that is blaspheming against the Spirit." God can forgive anything except willful, deliberate, malicious slander of His name. The idea that suicide is unforgivable is reprehensible. Again, I am deeply sorry for your loss.
Grace and peace.

[stephofthenight]

First of all, if this is gonna hurt you, it might be best just to leave it alone. Second, God doesn't always stop us because what kind of existence is that? Do you really want God to be constantly contradicting or restraining you? Furthermore, there is no real scriptural basis for saying that God actively loves all of us. I won't say that He doesn't love us all, but there is a difference between the love He shows to some and the love He has for us: the one is an active, "verb" love. The other is the more traditional feeling of love: God "loves" us all in that sense because we are made in His image; that which we are made of is noble and good. .

i shal not leave it alone until i can make since of it because i cant deal with it anymore...i honestly just cant. its driving me mad. 3 days before i tlaked to him and he was perfectly happy and normal and then hes gone...
and if god loves us because we are made in his image isnt that like vanity which i think is against the 10 xommandmens which would mean he sinned which would jmake the perfect image imperfect? and it says somewhere that god loves everyone. blasphmy is the only unforgiveable sin states the bible but how can you be forgiven for something that takes your life and u cant ask for forgivness afterwards? just wondering...

[Lote-Tree]

God is outside of time because He is wholly spiritual, so He almost sees us doing things.


No. He knows it beforehand - that is omniscience. He knows everything. We are like characters in a book. That is omniscience.

[stephofthenight]

No. He knows it beforehand - that is omniscience. He knows everything. We are like characters in a book. That is omniscience.

see thats what i thought...but that one mean that he already knows who is going to suffer and die at an early age. he knows that people will murder children and rape them...yet he lets it happen? we have free choice but he already knows what we have chosen...like we have already chose our life and what we will be but now we are just here to filll the role in a play kinda???this is starting to make a little bit of since

[chaplin]

No. He knows it beforehand - that is omniscience. He knows everything. We are like characters in a book. That is omniscience.

If we are, merely, "characters in a book", then the whole concept, purpose, and very idea and existence of God is destroyed. (At least the commonly accepted conception of God).

[Lote-Tree]

see thats what i thought...but that one mean that he already knows who is going to suffer and die at an early age. he knows that people will murder children and rape them...yet he lets it happen? we have free choice but he already knows what we have chosen...like we have already chose our life and what we will be but now we are just here to filll the role in a play kinda???this is starting to make a little bit of since

If we are characters in a book - then we don't choose anything - we can't choose anything. It is the omniscient narator that does the choosing for us. That is omniscience.

[chaplin]

If we are characters in a book - then we don't choose anything - we can't choose anything. It is the omniscient narator that does the choosing for us. That is omniscience.

That is one definition of omniscience, usually used literarily.

[Lote-Tree]

If we are, merely, "characters in a book", then the whole concept, purpose, and very idea and existence of God is destroyed. (At least the commonly accepted conception of God).

There are ways around it.

1. You can reject omniscience.
2. God Voluntarily limits his omniscience so that we can have free will.
3. There is only One Reality and that Reality is God. All that exists is God. Therefore there is One Will and that is the Will of God.


That is one definition of omniscience, usually used literarily.

That is the definition found in Scriptures - God knows everything. There is nothing that God does not know.

[stephofthenight]

ok im lost again...i havent felt this confused since i ran into a freakin glass door...
there is no choice then...so kinda like matrix our paths are chosen and we are just here to live thru it

[kari]

I just wanted to comment on the small discussion that was going on about God loving us. I was a bit unclear of what the posts were trying to say...but in my opinion...God does love each of us, as His children. For example, you have a child, and love this child with all your heart. You will be happy and his/her success, good choices, virtue....but on the same hand, if that same child went down the wrong road, you would still love that child the same, but maybe feel saddened and sorrow for the wrong choices, and maybe the pain that child is going through for having made those choices. God does love each of us in that manner. That is how I feel. I think for the original 3 questions someone asked, dealing with the why's if He does love us, and suicide...I do think that is going to be hard to be able to put your finger on exactly why in general for every situation, for every case, for each person. There is so much to consider in each person's life that is all taken into consideration and known by God. And as to the why's....there is so many different religions, and different views...I really would more advise that you pray to God and get answers that mean something to you...read the scriptures and interpret them in your heart what it means to you...let God give you the answers that are specific to your life. I know that may sound general, and harder to do than saying (I do know that!)...but I am just noticing throughout these posts, debates are arising about the simplest things, such as HOW God loves us. It just seemed that some of this discussions are sounding more confusing than giving answers, and you are sounding very downhearted and sad...and I want you to know there is other ways to get answers than reading through confusing debates.
Kari

We do choose our paths, but God knows us so well...He is able to predict what we will do so well, He knows. Doesn't mean He is happy about everything we choose, and doesn't mean He will bring His hand down and swipe up someone in danger. Of course I suppose He COULD do anything He desires! But He still has to let EVERYONE make their own choices in life, with those choices can come happiness...or sadness depending on what we choose. With that also comes things that may affect us and sadden us from choices others may make.
Kari

[weepingforloman]

i shal not leave it alone until i can make since of it because i cant deal with it anymore...i honestly just cant. its driving me mad. 3 days before i tlaked to him and he was perfectly happy and normal and then hes gone...
and if god loves us because we are made in his image isnt that like vanity which i think is against the 10 xommandmens which would mean he sinned which would jmake the perfect image imperfect? and it says somewhere that god loves everyone. blasphmy is the only unforgiveable sin states the bible but how can you be forgiven for something that takes your life and u cant ask for forgivness afterwards? just wondering...

God loving us because we are in His image is just a way of saying that He loves us because what we are intended to be is good. There is a fundamental difference in the role of humans and the role of God: the first is meant to devote all praise and love to God, who in turn pours out love on us. I don't think that you actually need to have specifically asked forgiveness for every sin before dying to go to heaven, there's just too many to remember! God cannot be vain, because God cannot claim to be better than He is: He is perfect, and cannot therefore ascribe to Himself a higher character (vanity). As someone said, probably either C.S. Lewis or George MacDonald, I can't remember which, "If there was a being greater and better than God, He would give all His love to it." But there is none: so, for our betterment and happiness, He instructs us to love and worship Him. We are designed to be "fueled" by God. Sorry if this isn't helpful... I'm not the best one to deal with this issue, I'm not that wise or intelligent, really.


If we are characters in a book - then we don't choose anything - we can't choose anything. It is the omniscient narator that does the choosing for us. That is omniscience.

No. You're obscuring the simple definition of omniscience: all-knowing. God knows everything. He does not force us to do everything that we do (although I believe that it is closer to this than most). Part of the reason God is willing to suffer sin is that He wanted to create a universe apart from Himself, because love from automatons is not really love. Please make sure you use the right terms.

[hyperborean]

Not for nothing but this thread is nauseating. I still don't get it...are you confused "weepingforloman"? Why do you have such high admiration for "death of a salesman"? The main character is a weak fool who let society defeat him. Those who feel remorse for "loman" missed the point...it's like weeping for pablo in "the wall".

[Redzeppelin]

Not for nothing but this thread is nauseating. I still don't get it...are you confused "weepingforloman"? Why do you have such high admiration for "death of a salesman"? The main character is a weak fool who let society defeat him. Those who feel remorse for "loman" missed the point...it's like weeping for pablo in "the wall".

Christians can weep for Willy - because we understand the roots of his despair. A Nietzschean (with his focus on power) would logically despise Willy. You didn't understand that? That had to be explained to you?

[hyperborean]

My comment was there to criticize the typical christian's logic. Willy was an old schizophrenic wacko. Miller wrote the play to criticize capitalism; not for people to start weeping for the main character because of their christian morals.

[Redzeppelin]

My comment was there to criticize the typical christian's logic. Willy was an old schizophrenic wacko. Miller wrote the play to criticize capitalism; not for people to start weeping for the main character because of their christian morals.


We are not required to respond to the playwright's intentions; we respond to the humanity we see in well-drawn fictional characters.

[Lote-Tree]

ok im lost again...i havent felt this confused since i ran into a freakin glass door...


LOL :-) Sorry that you hurt yourself ;-(



there is no choice then...


If God is omnipotent and omniscient then there is no choice we can make because the choice has already been made for us like the characters in a book.



so kinda like matrix our paths are chosen and we are just here to live thru it

Not quite. Creators of the Matrix are not omniscient. And Matrix is not about path chosen but rather it is about reality being simulated.


No. You're obscuring the simple definition of omniscience: all-knowing. God knows everything.


That is the definition I am talking about. He knows everything before you were born and hence you can't do anything different. Hence you have no Free Will. Just like a characters in a Book.



He does not force us to do everything that we do (although I believe that it is closer to this than most).


We did not ask to be born did we? We had no choice in that matter did we? Just like characters in a book have no choice of being created.



Part of the reason God is willing to suffer sin is that He wanted to create a universe apart from Himself, because love from automatons is not really love. Please make sure you use the right terms.

I have used the right terms. It is just that omniscience does not allow for free will. This is has been debated for centuries but there is no resolution to this. But there are ways around it to overcome the contradiction...

[weepingforloman]

Not for nothing but this thread is nauseating. I still don't get it...are you confused "weepingforloman"? Why do you have such high admiration for "death of a salesman"? The main character is a weak fool who let society defeat him. Those who feel remorse for "loman" missed the point...it's like weeping for pablo in "the wall".

I feel for the man because he was lost... All men are the image of God, and this one was immensely pitiable.

"That is the definition I am talking about. He knows everything before you were born and hence you can't do anything different. Hence you have no Free Will. Just like a characters in a Book"
No... just because God knows which choice we make does not cause us to make that choice... the choice was still ours. You seem to be really missing the point.

[Lote-Tree]

No... just because God knows which choice we make does not cause us to make that choice... the choice was still ours. You seem to be really missing the point.

When did we have the choice? Before we are created? When did characters in a novel have a choice?

[hyperborean]

All men are the image of God.

All you christians have a different take on what God exactly is. Some say he is "everything good". Some say he is "love". And now you say we are the image of God. wow

[weepingforloman]

Hmm... Did it ever occur to you that there are more ways of describing God than one? Can you describe a person in one sentence/phrase/word? I hope not--and if human beings cannot be explained easily, why should the being behind all the complexities of the universe be easily explained?


When did we have the choice? Before we are created? When did characters in a novel have a choice?

A. Stop using the characters in a novel approach. No one said that but you, you cannot justify your own argument by something you said.

B. Again, time is only the inability of human beings to perceive eternity: what choices are made are, in a sense, eternal statements about a person's character (when being influenced in such and such a way, a person will make this choice, etc.).


Not for nothing but this thread is nauseating. I still don't get it...are you confused "weepingforloman"? Why do you have such high admiration for "death of a salesman"? The main character is a weak fool who let society defeat him. Those who feel remorse for "loman" missed the point...it's like weeping for pablo in "the wall".

"But God chose the foolish things of this world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." (1 Corinthians 1:27). Christianity almost always has a counter-cultural point of view: I happen to feel pity for the weak and foolish.

[Lote-Tree]

A. Stop using the characters in a novel approach. No one said that but you, you cannot justify your own argument by something you said.


The analgoy is very apt for what omniscience means.



B. Agaoin, time is only the inability of human beings to perceive eternity: what choices are made are, in a sense, eternal statements about a person's character (when being influenced in such and such a way, a person will make this choice, etc.).

omniscient narator of novel is just that - he is outside of time.


We shall pursue this in our own thread you have created.

See you there.

[Scheherazade]

Please note that you can quote more than one post:

Click the http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif icon on each of the posts you want to quote, it looks like this if you've clicked it, http://www.online-literature.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_on.gif then click Post Reply button, they show up automatically in text field.

[motherhubbard]

Everyone dies at some point. To a Christian death is just taking a step into the next life. What is in the world is temporary. The afterlife is eternal. Some only live a few moments while others live for over a hundred years. Eventually all must die. It can really be hurtful for those left here on earth, but we must understand that this life is not meant to last forever. Isa chose to take his own live. That is absolutely horrible and I’m sorry that that happened. He was a child and it can be hard for such a young person to deal with the different things in life. Had he had the same issues at the age of 20 or 30 or 40 he might have done differently. I wish that children could just be carefree children, but that’s not the reality of it. God will guide us, but only if we allow him to. That often means denying ourselves. I know you miss Isa so so badly. You can’t stop living because he is dead. Death comes as a thief in the night and you should live while you have the chance.

[ennison]

'We are not required to respond to the playwright's intentions' Heartily agree and frequently I do not have anything but dislike for a writer's intentions.

[motherhubbard]

'We are not required to respond to the playwright's intentions' Heartily agree and frequently I do not have anything but dislike for a writer's intentions.

I don't know what you are saying.

[ennison]

Don't you? Well try this. It's not, definitely not, a good idea to give banal advice to the bereaved - no matter the intention.

[hyperborean]

Hmm... Did it ever occur to you that there are more ways of describing God than one? Can you describe a person in one sentence/phrase/word? I hope not--and if human beings cannot be explained easily, why should the being behind all the complexities of the universe be easily explained?

Yes, but you don't say a person IS love. You say that person is "loving". That's what ticks me off. But you're right...we created the concept of God so we can describe and call him whatever we want. :)

{edit}

[Redzeppelin]

Yes, but you don't say a person IS love. You say that person is "loving". That's what ticks me off. But you're right...we created the concept of God so we can describe and call him whatever we want. :)

{edit}


Wrong. God created us. God = love. Love exists because God exists. You have your statements backwards.

[motherhubbard]

Don't you? Well try this. It's not, definitely not, a good idea to give banal advice to the bereaved - no matter the intention.

Normally I would agree with you, however not this time. I doubt there is anything new or inventive that would help this young lady feel better. Having engaged in several conversations with her I understand the history of the story and where she is with it right now. Perhaps you have more insightful advice.

People have to start from where they are. Tragic death is a hard reality for the old and much more so for the very young. Coming to terms with life as it is is necessary for one to move forward. That must be understood in the simplest of terms. It is hard to learn that life is just not fair. It’s hard when you’re grown and harder when you are young.

I'm sorry if I bored you.

[kari]

Thanks for the quote advice...I was always trying to figure out how people did that! I never even noticed those quote bottons....
Kari

[weepingforloman]

Yes, but you don't say a person IS love. You say that person is "loving". That's what ticks me off. But you're right...we created the concept of God so we can describe and call him whatever we want. :)

{edit}

I, too think that "God is love" is banal, but for a different reason. I won't go to that. However, I think you already know I don't think we invented God.

[Redzeppelin]

I, too think that "God is love" is banal, but for a different reason.

"Banal"? The Bible says what it says.

[stephofthenight]

just wondering has anyone ever read the screwtape letters by c.s. lewis? we read it in church and it confused me more. someone said i should pray and that it would help me more then a debate. right now i just dont feel like god is answering my prayers and i kinda feel like he isnt there. hints why im here, trying to "reconnect" with him because i just dont know how anymore. honestly i just dont understand, because so many ppl lose loved one's and there is that question of why everytime. well ive prayed to god asking him that along with many others...and he has never answered me or anyone else that i know. before i juts blindly followed the bible and what "god" said. but recently i ran into a prob...i think hitler was a decent person...yes what he did was wrong. but he was trying to teach people to be proud of their perfetion. and well i kida have something against jewish ppl. for a good reason that i shall choose not to revile. but honestly i just dont know.

[weepingforloman]

I have read Screwtape, and I think reading it in church would be hard... if you read it independently it's easier and very good. Umm... Hitler was trying to make a "master race," and he insinuated that all people besides the Germans were inferior. I don't know what you "have against" Jewish people, but it's never a good idea to hold something against an entire people. I would say that prayer is more helpful by far than debate, but I also think that Scripture is a valid course of action, and definitely better than asking other people. But, then, I guess I said that... I guess I'm somewhat contradicting myself. Sorry.

[weepingforloman]

"Banal"? The Bible says what it says.

Yeah... but show me where the phrase "God is love" occurs, then explain to me what you think about the meaning. We may be working with different conceptions. Do I believe that God is loving? Absolutely. But do I believe that that is an accurate summary of all His character? Absolutely not.

[stephofthenight]

Do I believe that God is loving? Absolutely. But do I believe that that is an accurate summary of all His character? Absolutely not.

wow that is confusing? can u explain and clerify?

[weepingforloman]

Yes. God is loving (as in, He exhibits love, He shows love to people, He is caring, good, etc.). But God is not that simple: He is far more complex than an ordinary person. Just like you can't sum up a human in one word or one phrase, you cannot sum up God in the phrase "God is love." You would also have to say things like "God is intelligence," "God is justice," "God is mercy," "God is strength," "God is holiness," and so on. You can say that kind of thing because really, God's love is what we take the meaning of love from, what we call good qualities are sort of lesser versions of His greater qualities (that doesn't mean they're only good because God has them, there is an absolute standard--which God completely conforms with). However, His love must be balanced with His justice, His kindness with His discipline, because no one virtue is applicable to all situations. So God is love, but that's not all He is.

[stephofthenight]

ok that makes since...so the qualitys we use to describe each other are from god basicly and in a lesser since we portray them in his image?

[weepingforloman]

Yes. That's not established doctrine, but it's what I think, and it does make sense. Because we are not on the level, in terms of goodness or in terms of power that God is, we cannot truly have the same qualities as Him, and all the goodness we have is given from Him, so the image of a mirror is very good. We reflect the goodness from God, in a hazier way, because we are not totally good--sin sort of smudges the mirror.

[stephofthenight]

ok...i get it. hey i get it!!!!! ur amazing

[weepingforloman]

Thanks. And by the way, I really do hope you get through this... I'm really sorry about your boyfriend, and I can't pretend to know what that was like. And I hope he's with God now.

[stephofthenight]

honesly in my mind i know he isnt...but in by heart i decive myself and say he is.

honestly im not sure about anything: im not sure why im still here and why i didnt go with him: im not sure why i came to this fourum: im not sure why i threw my life story out there: and im definitly not sure rather i regret it our not: for now im sighning off, i hope that maybe illl understand what you guyst have said. i want you to know that you have all been a wonderfull help to my questions and inconsistensys of mental state. well i dont know what im going to do, i may just go balistic and i may just cry myself to sleep. but whatever i decide, i just want to thank everyone for your gracious time that u have shared... thank you motherhubbard especialy i hope your daugher realises how lucky u are, u truely touched my life, but maybe im just beyond help. goodnight guys

[weepingforloman]

but maybe im just beyond help. goodnight guys

Please don't say that... there is nothing that is impossible with God.

[stephofthenight]

eh yeah sure

[Redzeppelin]

eh yeah sure

God is up to any challenge you place before Him - and He desperately wants you to talk to Him, to share your hurts and desires, fears and dreams with Him. There is no real satisfaction or comfort in this life that lasts except for God; He created us, and as such, He intimately knows each of us and how we hurt and what it is we most need to make it through each day. I see the doubt in your language, and it is totally understandable. But God is bigger than our ideas of Him - He created the universe; but He is most concerned about us and how we're surviving each day. He's waiting for you to seek Him, because He will not force Himself on anybody - but He has peace for you. Really.

[stephofthenight]

and where shall i look for this peace? i mean you make it soud so easy...like just turn around and you will find happiness, when i feel like im spinning in circles trying to find anything to cling to to keep from going down into the vast darkness at the end of the tunnel that im in.

[Redzeppelin]

and where shall i look for this peace? i mean you make it soud so easy...like just turn around and you will find happiness, when i feel like im spinning in circles trying to find anything to cling to to keep from going down into the vast darkness at the end of the tunnel that im in.


*sigh* - on the one hand it is easy, and on the other it is difficult. The easy part is the asking; the hard part is the believing that He actually hears you and that He will bring answers, comfort, understanding, hope and renewal. I did not say that "happiness" instantly happens; believing in God doesn't create a blissful "Nirvana" of existence. What turning to God does do is it provides us with a partner who can help us navigate our way through our pain, through our questions, through our sufferings, through our doubts and disappointments. God doesn't snap His fingers and take our pain away: instead, He gives the pain a meaning, and He helps us take that pain and use it to grow - and that growth is what helps us face the difficulties in life. Our choices, when faced with grief, loss and trauma, are to implode or to grow - God provides growth; turning to ourselves points us toward despair. Here's more: God knew you before you were born; He knows everything about you and He has a plan for your life - a plan that contributes to the growth, well-being or comfort of someone else in this world. Sinking into despair denies not only you a meaningful life - but it also denies that unknown someone else out there who needs you - and needs you desperately; they may not know it yet, and you may have no idea who this person is, but someone out there either needs you now, or will need you later on. God can help you on that way - He's not a "happy drug" that will take the pain away - but He will show you the way through the pain. Your grief is His; your pain is His - and your life is of infinite value to Him. He only awaits your permission to begin moving mightily in your life; He can send the darkness away, but He needs your permission.

[stephofthenight]

aye, indeed correct i would guess. i will attempt my best ababillty to throw myself into gods graces and hope i dont get thrown back into the harsh reality of life.

[FireJuggler]

i can feel you sorrow, but to answer your question would be a hard task; there is a book though that i highly recommend. it is called "Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel; it is about Lee Strobel and his search for the truth. i have read the book and it has helped me wtih most questions i have had even for my own faith; it does have your questions in it and i pray that you get this book and read it and i hope it answers all your questions


All you christians have a different take on what God exactly is. Some say he is "everything good". Some say he is "love". And now you say we are the image of God. wow
well in the Bible it says in Genesis 1:26-27; Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

it is only implying that we were made in the likeness of God it isn't that we are God we are like a reflection of Him


i can feel you sorrow, but to answer your question would be a hard task; there is a book though that i highly recommend. it is called "Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel; it is about Lee Strobel and his search for the truth. i have read the book and it has helped me wtih most questions i have had even for my own faith; it does have your questions in it and i pray that you get this book and read it and i hope it answers all your questions

sorry i posted this in the wrong thread

[stephofthenight]

i see.......so basicly we have "faith" {no one has defined this yet} until we die and then we get to see if "god" "allah" or the other leaders, of religions exist or if we should have enjoyed the "sins" that we avoided. basicly eh?

[Redzeppelin]

i see.......so basicly we have "faith" {no one has defined this yet} until we die and then we get to see if "god" "allah" or the other leaders, of religions exist or if we should have enjoyed the "sins" that we avoided. basicly eh?

All love is based on faith; there is no empirical way to actually prove that somebody loves you or that you love them; it is always a matter of faith. The reason faith is so important is that it is often all we have left once we reach the "end of ourselves" (a place we arrive at when we realize that our ability to understand and control life is about zero); non-believers like to dismiss the faith of the believer, but much of life is based on faith; when you get on an airplane, you are exercising faith that you will arrive safely at your destination (because you have no guarantee that you will); when you go out to eat, you exercise a certain amount of faith in the restaurant staff that they aren't ill and spitting into your food (sorry - a bit graphic). Faith is very woven into the fabric of life - the difference is that faith in God is never betrayed - He is real, and He will keep all of His promises.

As far as "enjoying" sins - they have a nasty "aftertaste" and ultimately, even if they are enjoyable (and they often are - at first) they eventually become shackles that we long to escape.

[stephofthenight]

ok. i see what your saying and all, but i still dont get it. so they are good at first and then we realsie what they are doing to us and we long to change. so its kinda like a drug addiction, at first the high keeps you blind from the truth then when you are coming down you long to escaped but its an addiction that haunts you?

[Redzeppelin]

ok. i see what your saying and all, but i still dont get it. so they are good at first and then we realsie what they are doing to us and we long to change. so its kinda like a drug addiction, at first the high keeps you blind from the truth then when you are coming down you long to escaped but its an addiction that haunts you?

Perfect - you absolutely got it! Addiction is simply another term for sin in our lives - whether that sin is drugs, sex, alcohol, eating, gossip, stealing, murder, pride, whatever. You have perfectly understood what I was trying to say. Sin is fun - and often very powerful and meaningful to us - but "powerful" and "meaningful" don't = good for us; but there's no way around the fact that these behaviors are gratifying (temporarily pleasing) - but they are not satisfying (a deeper, more lasting contentment) - and there's the difference. God longs for us to come to Him with our "addictions" because He is the only one who can help us break them - including depression. All sins can be forgiven - suicide, doubt, promiscuity, drug abuse, you name it - all can be washed away. When you confess your sin to God and ask Him to forgive you, you become "clothed" in the righteousness of Christ - so when God looks at you, He sees the perfection of His sinless son - not your sins.

[stephofthenight]

yay im getting this

[Pendragon]

I see Red and The Juggler have this well in hand. Good job, mes amis! Hold fast to the faith and keep on keeping on. Steph, take encourgment from the teaching these guys are giving. I don't think they will steer you wrong.

God Bless

Pen

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/EasterCross.gif

[stephofthenight]

thank you pen. ill do my best not to dissapoint you.
and these guys seem to know what they are talking about so i hope that i dont get confused and them give up on me but for the moment i thnk i might be getting it.

[the silent x]

ok guys, this isn't a question, more like a seeking of an answer to give to someone, one kid in my class absolutely hates religion, he feverishly says that none of the plagues happened, he pulls the water becoming blood one the most because it is easiest to defend. he says the simple answer is these dinoflagellate things that make a body of water look red for a time, then disappear. how do i defend that?

[Redzeppelin]

ok guys, this isn't a question, more like a seeking of an answer to give to someone, one kid in my class absolutely hates religion, he feverishly says that none of the plagues happened, he pulls the water becoming blood one the most because it is easiest to defend. he says the simple answer is these dinoflagellate things that make a body of water look red for a time, then disappear. how do i defend that?

A quick answer: According to Exodus 7, everything in the river died and the river stank - can dino-whatevers do that?. Second, vs.19 indicates that it was not just the river, but all water in Egypt - ponds, streams, resevoirs, etc.

Longer answer: your student will be convinced by none of what I just wrote - people who don't believe in God will not accept divine revelation as true. All you can do is point out that one possible explanation (dino-whatever) does not mean that that possibility is the only option, nor necessarily the correct one. Everything depends upon God: if He is real and who the Bible claims Him to be, then the blood plague is a mere hat-trick. But: if God is not believed to be whom the Bible claims Him to be, there is little by way of "evidence" that will change anyone's mind. Good luck.

[Redzeppelin]

thank you pen. ill do my best not to dissapoint you.
and these guys seem to know what they are talking about so i hope that i dont get confused and them give up on me but for the moment i thnk i might be getting it.

"Give up" on you? Never! I am happy to be having this conversation with you and will continue to do so as long as you like. Being "confused" is no crime - it is the refusal to even try to understand that is the real crime - and of that you are not guilty. :)

[stephofthenight]

aww. i feel special.yay.

aye. another question.

god is the begining and the end the alpa and the omega

but if everything has to have a begining and an end, but it never realy ends like life. where does god begin?

[ennison]

'All love is based on faith; there is no empirical way to actually prove that somebody loves you or that you love them'
There's not much that Red says that I'm inclined to disagree with but if a wife never saw anything but a cool and distant apparent indifference to herself, she would be most certainly inclined to think (and probably rightly) that she was not loved. Same goes for husband. Of course she could be told over and over to have faith and she could conceivably convince herself that all the evidence to the contrary she was indeed loved. For human beings can convince themselves of anything.
So I disagree with Red here.

[Redzeppelin]

'All love is based on faith; there is no empirical way to actually prove that somebody loves you or that you love them'
There's not much that Red says that I'm inclined to disagree with but if a wife never saw anything but a cool and distant apparent indifference to herself, she would be most certainly inclined to think (and probably rightly) that she was not loved. Same goes for husband. Of course she could be told over and over to have faith and she could conceivably convince herself that all the evidence to the contrary she was indeed loved. For human beings can convince themselves of anything.
So I disagree with Red here.

And I take your disagreements seriously, my friend. Let's see if I can redeem myself. External behaviors are generally used to identify things about human beings; however, they can be faked, and they can be faked for different reasons - love (or for that matter, hate) cannot be empirically proven. I might be cold and distant to someone not because I dislike him/her, but because I'm trying to drive them away for my/their own good (which might be my way of showing love). That's all I meant to say - we take it on faith that we can properly interpret the behaviors of others as accurate indicators of the contents of their hearts.

[Pendragon]

And hear I'm reminded of the words of a song. "Love Will Find a Way". I wish more of you had received the email Miss Tenderness sent out about true love. A young man was to be married, but in the meantime, was sent to Iraq. When he came back, he barely looked human. Obviously, he had caught a firebomb square in the face. She married him anyway, just as he was. That's love, and Christ died for us, just as we were. God Bless.

You won't disappoint me Steph—you seem headed in the right direction. Don't disappoint God, He is far more important than I am.

Always praying

Pen


http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/HearttoHeart.gif

[kiobe]

What are the basic differences, if any, between the bible, the Quran and the Torah?

[stephofthenight]

the bible says to respect jews. the torah says that jews are amazing and if they see a gential drounding not to save them but to kill them by there own hand. and the other i know nothing about im sorry
steph

[NickAdams]

What are the basic differences, if any, between the bible, the Quran and the Torah?


The Torah is composed of the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

[ennison]

'That's all I meant to say - we take it on faith that we can properly interpret the behaviors of others as accurate indicators of the contents of their hearts.'
That I agree with. I'm not sure your answer completely fills the weak patch but I certainly aint going to probe it. I suspect the reason one of our ethereal atheist friends out there hasn't jumped on it is that they are approaching these questions from the point of view of being convinced that scientists are fundamentally more rational than other beasts (That's to say they are different from most of humanity - being flawless and not of clay). They, being fundamentalists, are not much given to questions, having already got it 'sorted' - a comfortable and narrow place. Thanks for your reply.

[Bookworm4Him]

Christian myself, but I want to know your view on predestination, elect, free choice, and your proof. Answer whenever, it's just a question I study in my free time

[Redzeppelin]

Christian myself, but I want to know your view on predestination, elect, free choice, and your proof. Answer whenever, it's just a question I study in my free time


To whom is this addressed?

[weepingforloman]

The Torah is composed of the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Close, but no go. You're thinking of the term "Tanakh." The Torah is the entire Old Testament of the Bible (though some Jewish groups omit certain books, such as the prophetic books or wisdom books).

[weepingforloman]

To whom is this addressed?
Believe that's me, Red.


Christian myself, but I want to know your view on predestination, elect, free choice, and your proof. Answer whenever, it's just a question I study in my free time

Sorry if you asked this a long time ago, I haven't been on in a while.

I refer you to the Pauline Epistles. Basically everything Paul wrote on the nature of salvation supports Calvinist doctrine (predestination, election, etc.). Of course, I don't believe Calvin is infallible (I'm sure in the next life God will show me something quite flawed in Calvinism), but I think he based his theological ideas on Paul's own. I can't remember the exact passage, but somewhere, Paul says "Some he destined for destruction" (I don't state the earlier part, because I can't remember it and don't want to screw it up), and that's a pretty clear statement of predestination. Elsewhere Paul says "Those He elected, He also justified" (that's more predestination). The arguments for total depravity are all throughout the Bible, just piece the various statements about man together ("Their feet are swift to shed blood" "Their mouths are like open graves" "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," etc.). The perserverance of the saints is a fairly obvious conclusion if you start with the idea that God is sovereign (His will cannot be thwarted if He presses it) and that He calls people to faith. Limited atonement is trickier, but, again believing in God's inexorable will, if Christ died for all people, why are not all people Christians? Irresistible grace is once more based on the assumption that God's will is inexorable (if you are called by an inexorable being, how can you say no?).

[weepingforloman]

aww. i feel special.yay.

aye. another question.

god is the begining and the end the alpa and the omega

but if everything has to have a begining and an end, but it never realy ends like life. where does god begin?

This is a difficult concept to understand for people, mostly because we are temporal creatures, everything we do is affected by time. God is the only self-existent being (no one created Him, but He created everything else). He is the original Cause that brings about all Effects. He is in fact the foundation of all existence. Nothing was ever before God, and nothing will ever be after God. Indeed, humanity, when we enter eternity, will never end either. Don't try to think about eternity for very long, though, I have and it makes me dizzy.