Talkin' About "God is Not Great"

[weepingforloman]

Mmmkay, so, before I start... this is gonna sound like a rant. Secondly, remember that I'm sixteen, so I might sound stupid at some points. Don't judge me and other people who think what I think by something I say that's pretty stupid.

So, I just wanna start of by saying that I totally disagree with Christopher Hitchens (sp?). I think he's totally off base, and that he needs to step back and think about some of the things he is saying. Quite frankly, he comes off like a bit of a psycho. I think he's also making the mistake of assuming that all people who claim to believe in something REALLY do believe. It's a common mistake, much more common than most people think. He makes the one claim that I think hurts me and other "religious" (hate that term... it has become a label, and a negative one--but I don't wanna say "the faithful" because most people connect that either to crazy fanatacism or the occult) people is that religion is "allied with racism, tribalism" and something else I don't remember, exactly, but probably a continuation of the same thing. This is a common belief now, especially in connection with conservative Protestants (which I am). People seem to misinterpret what fundamentalism is. Most people would call someone a fundamentalist if they claim divine support for racism. NOTHING could be farther from the truth. If we assume that fundamentalism is taking the Word of God literally (or, as the Presbyterians and a few other denominations like to say, literaturally, as in, taking poetry as poetry, and statement as statement) racism is one of the last things that could be justified. Paul says, "For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile-the same lord who is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him" (Romans 10:12, New International Version)-that is, the new covenant in Christ eliminates all racial/ethnic differences. Some people have tried to use OT passages to justify slavery, but that is based on a shaky, complicated theory that doesn't really hold up. Even if we totally disregard this last verse (and others like it), and pretend that Hitchens is right in saying that fundamentalists are hostile to other races, we have another, pretty clear counter-argument: Jesus said, "Love your enemy." If we feel hateful or hostile to anyone, we are called to love them all the more. We (Christians) are meant to be love to the world. We have very clear precedents for this kind of thing- Christ hung out with the prostitutes, tax collectors (read, "con men"), and Samaritans (a group of people descended from Jews but mixed with Gentile blood, who remained behind while the Israelites were brought into exile in Babylon)... all of these people were considered inferior and outcasts. There are other things I could say about God is Not great, but I'd like to hear some comments. And please: if I did/said something stupid, tell me. I don't wanna screw up without even realizing it.

[Shalot]

When did you decide that Christianity is the way to go?

I was raised as a Christian. I remember being told that as a Christian, I was called upon to spread the good news. Then we talked about sin. At a very young age I was very aware of sins and their consequences. A nun told us eight year olds that we were fortunate to be informed of this (sins and their consequences that is) and that there are sinners in the world who haven't heard the good news (aka weren't aware of the mortal sins and their consequences). We were told that all sinners would be punished but the punishment for those who heard this "good news" and turned their backs on it would be worse than for those who didn't know....

And I always wished that I didn't know because "sin" was inevitable. I say "sin" because some of the sins sounded like silly superstitions to me. And at eight years old, that nun looked crazy to me.

And then I just thought that Christianity was cruel and sadistic.

Now I don't want to hear about it and when someone interrupts me from my newspaper and asks me what could be more important than the salvation of my soul, I get a little irritated.


I take it you've heard the good news....or what are they calling it nowadays?

signed,

Cranky This Evening.

[weepingforloman]

Okay, that's a problem with the Catholic Church (in my opinion-admins, don't yell at me). They emphasize the issue of sin way too much (or in the wrong ways). With Catholics, the message of the Gospel is to be a good person (apparently) and (my overuse of parentheses is annoying isn't it?) to "earn" your way to heaven. That's not how I see it. I don't know if you're even aware of the existence of Calvinism, but it's what I believe (that's not a separate religion, just a theological distinction)-- what Calvinism emphasizes is the power of God to save. The ball's in His court. I don't think the two of us can ever be reconciled philosophically. I'm willing to bet you have acquired at least a little bit of nihilism (that seems to be a theme amongst lapsed Catholics). Christianity is not really cruel, by the way-- it's like a shot, you know? It hurts, but it brings healing. I think, if you're truly honest with yourself, you'd know that you've done things wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me, but I probably won't believe it. I think I'm gonna have to pray for you, "Shalot."
Oh, to answer the original question, I can't point to a single moment, day, or even year when I think I started to really believe. It's been a gradual process of me becoming more and more aware of myself, God, and the bridge between us, that is, Christ.
I'ma steal from Paul (St. Paul to you, I suppose)
Grace and peace to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

[kilted exile]

Can we not try to confine this religious talk to the religious texts area of the forum?


With Catholics, the message of the Gospel is to be a good person

Where as of course the real message of the gospel is of course: Screw everything and everyone as much as possible:rolleyes:

I am familiar with protestantism and your assertion that it is just catholics that are obsessed with sin is soooo far off base. I have heard many protestant preachers mumbling on about hellfire and brimstone.

I tell you what I'll pray for you as well, but I'll pray to the invisible troll at the bottom of my garden and we'll see who gets answered first - my money is on neither of us, but what the hey.......

[weepingforloman]

Okay, umm... this started out as about a book... Secondly, you seem to be missing the main point of my statement about the Protestant/Catholic rift (and confusing the more emotional, grassroots version of the Protestants with the other end of the spectrum, the Calvinists compared to the Wesleyans): Catholics believe firmly in salvation through works. This has been repeatedly reaffirmed in their councils. Secondly, I'm sorry you feel that way about what I believe, but I will respect you, and I ask a little respect in return. Really, I didn't expect much, but it'd be nice if you wouldn't diminish what I consider the only vital aspect of life to the "invisible troll at the bottom of [your] garden." Additionally, I don't think you've ever really heard the gospel presented in any real sense if you believe that it is "screw everyone and everything as much as possible." You're off base. Consider that Christ said, "If a man asks you for your cloak, give him your tunic as well." The economic ethos of Christianity approaches socialism far more than one might think, and, really, the reason a great number of Christians are opposed to welfare programs is that: a.) we believe in human (and, by extension, governmental) incompetence and b.) we believe it is the personal responsibility of communities (read, individual people--you and me, not just the rich) to care for the poor and starving.
Anyway, I'm not really sure why posting this here really bothered you. Sorry.

[weepingforloman]

Oh, and, by the way: I'm sixteen. Don't make this something it's not. I don't pretend to be a theologian (though I am considering seminary, and, subsequently, becoming a pastor). I don't have all the answers (no one does, otherwise it wouldn't be faith). Lastly, don't confuse the actions of the visible "church" with the ideals of the invisible Church. (The difference between the capital and lowercase is vital).

[kilted exile]

You need to realise the sarcasm of my reply there (see smilie) I am too familiar with the scriptures ( I spent the first 18 years of my life in a protestant religious organisation. From that part of your post I quoted it suggests that being a good person is not what Christ/God/whatever you want to term it wanted.

With regards to respect of your beliefs you offered no respect to Shalot's beliefs when you first diminished catholicism as the incorrect way & suggested she should revert to a form of protestantism instead ( a position I am far too familiar with having grown up in the west of scotland - which is second to possibly only N.Ireland regarding sectarianism & bigotry). Then you diminished her position that she didnt want to be saved, by saying you would pray for her anyway, suggesting you are correct and know better.

The reason I like this stuff in the religious section is because then people who dont care about religion or have no interest in it dont have to read it.

[weepingforloman]

First of all, you still don't have to read it. It's pretty clearly labelled. Secondly, I didn't suggest that she "revert" to a form of "protestantism" (that's an unwieldy term, and you can't "revert" if you never were) but pointed out a perceived flaw of Catholocism. Shalot him/herself (do you know for sure? I don't) says that he/she is not currently in the Church. And, besides, the Catholics and Protestants are part of the same total body. I don't regard the Catholic Church as an enemy. Consider what I said intra-organization polemic, not overtly hostile, judgmental criticism (it may come off that way, but I don't intend that). Third, it's not that God (why the /Christ/whatever is there, I don't understand) does not desire a person to be good: it's that we cannot be "good" (do good things) without the grace of God. Grace is the overarching message of the Gospel: undeserved mercy, not an earned reward. So, you're from Scotland. Were you a Presbyterian? If so, you should no this already.

[Big Al]

Secondly, I'm sorry you feel that way about what I believe, but I will respect you, and I ask a little respect in return. Really, I didn't expect much, but it'd be nice if you wouldn't diminish what I consider the only vital aspect of life to the "invisible troll at the bottom of [your] garden."

What would you think if somebody did consider the invisible troll at the bottom of their garden to be the only vital aspect of his or her life?


The economic ethos of Christianity approaches socialism far more than one might think, and, really, the reason a great number of Christians are opposed to welfare programs is that: a.) we believe in human (and, by extension, governmental) incompetence and b.) we believe it is the personal responsibility of communities (read, individual people--you and me, not just the rich) to care for the poor and starving.


I'm actually a supporter of capitalism (strange, since every famous author and filmmaker who I love seems to demonize it), but as a libertarian, in theory I agree with the end of welfare programs.

[weepingforloman]

Additionally, you fail to really address the point of this thread. Actually, the whole thing is pretty off target. Does anyone have anything to say about "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens?

That last one was meant for Kilted Exile.


What would you think if somebody did consider the invisible troll at the bottom of their garden to be the only vital aspect of his or her life?



I'm actually a supporter of capitalism (strange, since every famous author and filmmaker who I love seems to demonize it), but as a libertarian, in theory I agree with the end of welfare programs.

Umm... If anyone considers the invisible troll at the bottom of their garden the only vital aspect of life, I would start off by saying, "I apologize for mocking your faith." Secondly, I would back away slowly. Third, I would turn and run, contact the police, and recommend high-end, powerful medication.

[Big Al]

Umm... If anyone considers the invisible troll at the bottom of their garden the only vital aspect of life, I would start off by saying, "I apologize for mocking your faith." Secondly, I would back away slowly. Third, I would turn and run, contact the police, and recommend high-end, powerful medication.

It's funny how a man who prays to an invisible troll is crazy, but praying to an invisible man in the sky is not only socially accepted, those who believe differently are often socially ostracized.

[kilted exile]

Firstly to adress the part about hitchens: With something like religious scripture which is so open to interpretation & which nobody knows who is interpreting it correctly. It is fine for you to say that not all who say they believe, really believe but what makes your interpretation correct & theirs wrong for example the KKK would be a example of a group which uses scripture to promote racism and I'm sure they would term you as the person who does not really believe.

Secondly the Christ/God/Whatever: This is a term I frequently use as people refer to their god as a variety of names supreme being;creator; YWH whatever.

Next, the part about everything being done through the grace of god & not people yes I understand this is part of christian ideology - but this doesnt mean I have to agree with it. It takes away personal responsibility.

Lastly, you should check out the book The Reformation: Europes great houses Divided.

[Shalot]

Okay, that's a problem with the Catholic Church (in my opinion-admins, don't yell at me). They emphasize the issue of sin way too much (or in the wrong ways). With Catholics, the message of the Gospel is to be a good person (apparently) and (my overuse of parentheses is annoying isn't it?) to "earn" your way to heaven. That's not how I see it. I don't know if you're even aware of the existence of Calvinism, but it's what I believe (that's not a separate religion, just a theological distinction)-- what Calvinism emphasizes is the power of God to save. The ball's in His court. I don't think the two of us can ever be reconciled philosophically. I'm willing to bet you have acquired at least a little bit of nihilism (that seems to be a theme amongst lapsed Catholics). Christianity is not really cruel, by the way-- it's like a shot, you know? It hurts, but it brings healing. I think, if you're truly honest with yourself, you'd know that you've done things wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me, but I probably won't believe it. I think I'm gonna have to pray for you, "Shalot."
Oh, to answer the original question, I can't point to a single moment, day, or even year when I think I started to really believe. It's been a gradual process of me becoming more and more aware of myself, God, and the bridge between us, that is, Christ.
I'ma steal from Paul (St. Paul to you, I suppose)
Grace and peace to you from the Lord Jesus Christ.


That's precious. I do thank you for your prayers

May the grace of God be with you, "weeping..."



:lol:

[kathycf]

Hi and welcome weepingforloman. Near Boston, huh? Probably nearer than I am. :)

A couple of small points. While this book cannot be considered a religious text, (in the sense that it does not endorse or celebrate religion) it does deal with religion as it's main subject matter. So, I am of the opinion that it isn't a topic for general literature. No biggie, my opinion and $1.75 will get you a cup of coffee. There are topics dealing with atheism in the religious texts forum too.

While I haven't read the book in question, I thought I would post a link to read excerpts from it, in case anybody is interested. Google is so cool for stuff like that.
Book excerpts. (http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/)

Okay, this last part may come across as unfriendly and I am not meaning it to be. I find it a little presumptious to offer to pray for someone who clearly states she (yes, I know she is a she) isn't interested in religion. Sure if you wish to pray that is your business, but...I think you are being kind and well meaning, but whether a person believes or not is his or her own business. That is worthy of respect, just as your faith is worthy of respect to you.

Sorry, Shalot...I guess I am being presumptious myself...the offer of prayer was to you and not to me. :blush:

[Shalot]

Additionally, you fail to really address the point of this thread. Actually, the whole thing is pretty off target. Does anyone have anything to say about "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens?


well sorry. In the beginning your post goes on for a while about your personal reaction to Hitchens, so the first thing that came to my mind was my personal response to your reaction (which didn't have anything to do with the book). I don't know who Hitchens is and I haven't read it so you could start by structuring your post with a summary and then going into what you think about it. In writing, I think it's called a top down (someone please correct me if I am wrong) structure.

In your paragraph, introduce the main topic in the first sentence, which would be something like "I read God is not great by Christopher Hitchens and I do not agree with anything he said."
You started out with, "this is going to sound like a rant..." or something along those lines and then you said that you were sixteen and might sound stupid or something. I mean, you're just asking for someone to disagree. Just go ahead and state your point, sixteen years old or not.

and it's fun to argue about religious beliefs on a Friday night.

As far as God goes, I guess he's alright but I am not going to church to give away 10% + of my earnings (give till it hurts, mmmkay?) and hear about hell and how life is a veil of tears and how the decisions you make to survive in the real world go against the church. I am sorry I just won't do it. hmmpphh.

[Niamh]

It's funny how a man who prays to an invisible troll is crazy, but praying to an invisible man in the sky is not only socially accepted, those who believe differently are often socially ostracized.

Clap clap clap!!!!!!! I applaud you Big Al! It truely its the nail.


Can i just say Weepingforloman, you are only 16. There is more to life than religion, especially when that religion is christianity. If you get so caught up on it now by the time you are in your twenties you are going to be truely disapointed. I'm with Shalot on this one. I stay away from it and have no involvement with it. There are more important issues in this world than worshiping an Invisable deity that no one can actually prove exsists.


Christianity is not really cruel, by the way-- it's like a shot, you know? It hurts, but it brings healing. I think, if you're truly honest with yourself, you'd know that you've done things wrong. If I'm wrong, tell me, but I probably won't believe it. I think I'm gonna have to pray for you, "Shalot."


I think you need to start reading history properly Weepinforloman. Christianity is cruel and has left one too many scars in the world.
As for Shalot, the fact that she stood up and said she didnt believe anymore is her being truely honest with herself. She doesnt need you to pray for her. if you are going to pray for someone, pray for yourself.
We all do things wrong, and most likely on a daily bases. And i'm sure you have done many wrong things also. When you offend someone because of their beliefs, thats wrong.

[weepingforloman]

It's funny how a man who prays to an invisible troll is crazy, but praying to an invisible man in the sky is not only socially accepted, those who believe differently are often socially ostracized.

Okay, I don't believe in an "invisible man" in the sky. God is not a man. God is a spirit, and spirit is invisible to people. That's just the way it goes. Oh, and I don't know if you got it, but my thing about the troll was a joke. And I don't know anyone who has actually been "socially ostracized" for being atheist, though I do know some who have been for being committed Christians.


Hi and welcome weepingforloman. Near Boston, huh? Probably nearer than I am. :)

A couple of small points. While this book cannot be considered a religious text, (in the sense that it does not endorse or celebrate religion) it does deal with religion as it's main subject matter. So, I am of the opinion that it isn't a topic for general literature. No biggie, my opinion and $1.75 will get you a cup of coffee. There are topics dealing with atheism in the religious texts forum too.

While I haven't read the book in question, I thought I would post a link to read excerpts from it, in case anybody is interested. Google is so cool for stuff like that.
Book excerpts. (http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/entry/2165035/)

Okay: first off, I'm surprised that the most common objection to me so far is that I posted this in the "wrong place." Sorry 'bout that, guys, but is it that big of a deal? Secondly, how does my prayer really affect someone (assuming for a minute that God doesn't exist, and I'm a nut) who doesn't believe that God exists, and, therefore that prayer is futile?

Okay, this last part may come across as unfriendly and I am not meaning it to be. I find it a little presumptious to offer to pray for someone who clearly states she (yes, I know she is a she) isn't interested in religion. Sure if you wish to pray that is your business, but...I think you are being kind and well meaning, but whether a person believes or not is his or her own business. That is worthy of respect, just as your faith is worthy of respect to you.

Sorry, Shalot...I guess I am being presumptious myself...the offer of prayer was to you and not to me. :blush:
"I think you need to start reading history properly Weepinforloman. Christianity is cruel and has left one too many scars in the world."
All right, once again the secular world assumes that all things done by people claiming to be Christian must be done by actual Christians. The Crusades for instance: a political move made by the Catholic Church (don't want to get into how many problems I have with them) under the leadership of several popes who bought or inherited their office, and who used the fact that the laity never read the Bible for themselves to manipulate the people into a war. That's an example of nominal, but not actual, Christianity, which I think is probably the worst thing in the world. Now, take the book Real Christianity by William Wilberforce. He was the driving force behind the abolition movement in Britain, and this book was his primary means. American abolitionists were Christian, for that matter. So, as I see it, there are two different historical groupings for things done by Christians and "Christians." Keep the two separate.

And, uh, kathycf, how does my praying in any way damage someone who does not believe in prayer/God at all? Let's keep this at least somewhat logical.

"That's precious. I do thank you for your prayers

May the grace of God be with you, 'weeping...'"
-Shalot

(Rolling around laughing at that hilarious joke)

Ahhh... I'm having fun with this. Anybody else? Raise your hands, now!


Clap clap clap!!!!!!! I applaud you Big Al! It truely its the nail.


Can i just say Weepingforloman, you are only 16. There is more to life than religion, especially when that religion is christianity. If you get so caught up on it now by the time you are in your twenties you are going to be truely disapointed. I'm with Shalot on this one. I stay away from it and have no involvement with it. There are more important issues in this world than worshiping an Invisable deity that no one can actually prove exsists.


spelling?
But, besides that, if you believe (as I do) that there is a God, who has offered complete amnesty (you see that? I used a word that doesn't actually connect!) for a lot of things I have personally done that I know really are just loathsome, vile things... Why would I not want that to be the biggest part of me? And it's not an issue of "focusing" on (I don't want to say it, but I kinda gots to) religion, it's the fact that everything in life should be colored by faith (didn't wanna say that either). It's not as though I just sit at home reading the Bible: that's well and good as far as it goes, but that's not any real way to be Christian, or to live at all.:thumbs_up

[kathycf]

And, uh, kathycf, how does my praying in any way damage someone who does not believe in prayer/God at all? Let's keep this at least somewhat logical.

Wow...

First I don't know how you managed to quote me incorrectly, but you got part of somebody else's post in mine when you quoted me. That is what actually bothers me. It looks like I wrote things that I didn't.

Second, thank you for ignoring the friendly tone of my post and answering me in somewhat rude fashion. It's ok, because I am learning not to take offense at what people in forums write to me. :)

Third, you are making assumptions about "people in the secular world." You don't know, really who you might be "speaking" to. Have you not heard of the term "Devil's Advocate"? It is when folks take a viewpoint they might not necessarily subscribe to, but use it to spur debate on a topic. To get people to clarify their positions (in a logical fashion) on an issue. Of course, I am not saying that is the case, even though I have been a member here for a year, I don't know everything about other members. Commenting on people's spelling is just well....snotty. Sorry, but there it is.

Fourth, you seemed to have completely misinterpreted my comment about presumptiousness. I didn't say it would damage her...and the little dig about "keeping it logical" was completely unnecessary. If you are unsure about the meaning of the word "presumption" there are several very good online dictionaries....Look up the word "condescending" though, because it is actually more of what I had in mind.

Last but not least once again....welcome to the forum. I understand discussions can get quite heated about subjects that are so much a part of who a person is. Religion is one such subject, so I hope you will try to sit back and relax and enjoy the forum. However, I have decided to not participate in this discussion further than this post. I have not read the book in question, nor do I have any plans to, so therefore it would be fruitless.


Take care and hope you enjoy the lovely weather we are having here in Massachusetts. :)

[weepingforloman]

Okay, I know what condescending means. Secondly, yeah, there were some technological problems with that posting. I had answered yours right after the quote, but using quick post messed that up (I think I exceeded a limit). I also know what presumption and devil's advocate mean. However, I think it was pretty clear what the implication of someone saying "Christianity has left many scars in the world" was. Sorry if I'm being snotty, I don't mean to.

[Niamh]

I think that many of those people that you are classing as not true "christians" would probobly disagree with you if they were still alive today. I do not think it is up to you to deside who is or isnt a true christian. It is for the individual.

[weepingforloman]

Well, yes... But I'm saying that someone who truly believes would not do some of the things that have been done "in the name of" Christ. For instance, if you told me Hitler was a commited Christian, I would probably not believe you, based on his blatant violations of Christ's commands. However, as always, "judge not lest ye be judged." I'm just saying, be aware that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Obviously, faith is up to the individual, but that's not really the point. There are people who deceive both themselves and others with a faux-Christianity. Just be aware of that.

[Big Al]

Okay, I don't believe in an "invisible man" in the sky. God is not a man. God is a spirit, and spirit is invisible to people. That's just the way it goes.

On what are you basing this assertion?


Oh, and I don't know if you got it, but my thing about the troll was a joke. And I don't know anyone who has actually been "socially ostracized" for being atheist,

You don't "know anyone," or you don't "know of anyone?"


though I do know some who have been for being committed Christians.

Do they happen to life in Iraq? If not, they're in the vast minority.

[weepingforloman]

Clap clap clap!!!!!!! I applaud you Big Al! It truely its the nail.


Can i just say Weepingforloman, you are only 16. There is more to life than religion, especially when that religion is christianity. If you get so caught up on it now by the time you are in your twenties you are going to be truely disapointed. I'm with Shalot on this one. I stay away from it and have no involvement with it. There are more important issues in this world than worshiping an Invisable deity that no one can actually prove exsists.



I think you need to start reading history properly Weepinforloman. Christianity is cruel and has left one too many scars in the world.
As for Shalot, the fact that she stood up and said she didnt believe anymore is her being truely honest with herself. She doesnt need you to pray for her. if you are going to pray for someone, pray for yourself.
We all do things wrong, and most likely on a daily bases. And i'm sure you have done many wrong things also. When you offend someone because of their beliefs, thats wrong.

Oh, hey, I didn't even read this bottom part until now. First off, I do pray for myself-- all the time. No one will be readier to tell you that I am imperfect than me. Really. I pray for the entire world, actually. I know we all do things wrong, that's one of the foundations of the Christian faith. If I offended Shalot, I don't quite see how. If Shalot's an agnostic/atheist (as she seems to be) I don't see how my mentions of God and prayer can be offensive. I mean, that seems to me like getting offended if someone says they'll talk to their invisible friend for you. Note: I was using the atheist/agnostic point of view for that one. If I did I'm sorry, but not sorry at the same time: the Word says "do not be ashamed of this message."

[Niamh]

Well, yes... But I'm saying that someone who truly believes would not do some of the things that have been done "in the name of" Christ. For instance, if you told me Hitler was a commited Christian, I would probably not believe you, based on his blatant violations of Christ's commands. However, as always, "judge not lest ye be judged." I'm just saying, be aware that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Obviously, faith is up to the individual, but that's not really the point. There are people who deceive both themselves and others with a faux-Christianity. Just be aware of that.

I think i'm more aware of things than you so dont try to 'educate' me.
But i think this is getting a bit out of hand. Look i respect your beliefs. you are obviously a devote christian. but please just respect the rest of our beliefs and our opinions. Dont try to change them.

[weepingforloman]

Sorry if I sounded preachy, but I just want to make sure the point got across. Secondly, you really don't seem to respect my beliefs. Third, part of my belief is that the Gospel has to be shared. I'm fighting from a disadvantage here: agnosticism and a pantheistic/unitarian ideology are far more firmly entrenched than Christianity (by entrenched I mean in the sense of prevalence, not historical seniority). There is respect inherent in my position: I argue hard because I know that I'm going uphill. Last, I'd appreciate a little less arrogance. You don't know me, or what I'm "aware" of. Oh, and, by the way, I started this thread: I started it as a way for me to discuss what I think of God is Not Great, so I think what I am saying is pertinent, not "out of hand." You're the intruder into my monologue: I'm not saying that that makes me right, but it does take the power of judgment from you.

[Logos]

General Mod Note to All:

Closed because this 'discussion' has gotten way too personal and off-topic.

There are specific Religious Texts Forum rules (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15410), please read them.