Will Believers ever Unite?

[Demian]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

[motherhubbard]

What a lovely thought. All who believe that they serve God act as if their service counts for something. I just think that people mostly like to believe in themselves. When another challenges their belief system they become too insecure or defensive or offended. How many can objectively question their own faith and how they measure up to their own standard? I think that the majority are more in love with self-righteousness than with God. It can be hard to admit fault or flaw, but who is perfect? What a shame that people will allow their own insecurities to prevent them from communicating with others as well as humbling their selves in the sight of the Lord.

[Nossa]

It takes WAY more than what you stated to unite people from different religions, and even people from the same religion but different cults. I personally pray that all believers would unite someday, and we'll actually forget for ONE second that we may not be from the same religion, but heck we're following the same God...that's good enough for me.
But this is easier said than done if you ask me, from what I see, the idea of superiority is the dominating idea now, everyone is so proud of his/her religion to the extent that they resent and hate people from other religions and cults, and considering them the wrong and evil side.
So I believe that unitll people change thier attitude towards each other, there will be NO unity.

[Pendragon]

That depends. Jesus taught that all the law and the prophets hinged on two things: Loving God and Loving You Neighbor As Yourself, further defining your "Neighbor" as "anyone that needs you." Ask your own heart the question, "Am I really doing that?"

It maybe that we all would be "weighed in the balance and found wanting." And please note that I used the word WE. That includes myself. There are times when I wonder if I can really honestly say I come up to the mark.

Measuring each other by our own yardstick isn't going to work. We must face God's Mirror, and see how we reflect in that glass. Man will not judge man. To God we stand or fall. But we really need a check-up now and then.

God Bless.

Pen
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/EasterCross.gif

[motherhubbard]

I think that people don’t realize that God will meet you where you are. You don’t have to reach some level of perfection before God will recognize your worth. Being a Christian, I believe that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I realize that there are many who don’t agree with my beliefs, and that is certainly not for me to judge. As a Christian it is not for me to judge another, but to pray for them and behave toward them as a representative of the Lord. I think if people would spend more time focusing on their own sin and the needs of others instead of their own needs and the sins of others we would have a very different world. Unity is hindered when people fail to put God first and realize that total agreement will not be possible since we are all growing on this journey (or at least we should be). All of the factions and hatefulness can really put a bad taste in the mouth of the unbeliever, and we are accountable for that. I hear so many people and they sound like the self-righteous Pharisee that thanked God he was not like the humble sinner asking for forgiveness. People like power and recognition and that has always caused division.

[jon1jt]

never, never, never.

[JGL57]

never, never, never.

There are over ten thousand religious traditions, denominations, and sects in the world.

There is only one science.

You want unity? We are here for you. You are welcome.

[motherhubbard]

There was a time that the greatest scientific minds believed that the flat Earth was the center of the universe. But thousands of years ago Job said that the earth was a sphere suspended from nothing. The Bible is full of truths that science can not yet explain. Scientist can be closed minded in their religion just as anyone else. Once you close your mind you become blind. Are you guilty of that? There is always room for discussion and understanding of where another is coming from.

I sure hope that wasn’t offensive!

[Pendragon]

There are over ten thousand religious traditions, denominations, and sects in the world.

There is only one science.

You want unity? We are here for you. You are welcome.No. There are many branches of science, and frankly they often quarrel as to which branch of science a certain thing may fall under. For example, are diatoms plants or animals? Is this new discovery a compound or an element? Is Pluto a planet after all? How many actual planets are there? This particular animal is non-existent or extinct or is it? Where one will take evidence and say yeah, another will take the same evidence and say nay. Why? Because one of them has to be right and when it is determined which one actually is, it can then be said that science was correct all along.

Come to think of it, that may explain all the differences in religion as well.

[kilted exile]

I dont see this ever happening. Before you worry about getting all the believers of the Abrahmic God System to agree with each other, you might try to get the different sects within each of the religions to agree with each other - something else that is never going to happen.

[motherhubbard]

Agreement would be nice, but I would settle for empathy, understanding, and compassion. Why is that so hard?

[JGL57]

No. There are many branches of science, and frankly they often quarrel as to which branch of science a certain thing may fall under. For example, are diatoms plants or animals? Is this new discovery a compound or an element? Is Pluto a planet after all? How many actual planets are there? This particular animal is non-existent or extinct or is it? Where one will take evidence and say yeah, another will take the same evidence and say nay. Why? Because one of them has to be right and when it is determined which one actually is, it can then be said that science was correct all along.

Come to think of it, that may explain all the differences in religion as well.

All of the disagreements you listed within science are minor quibbles - nothing whatsoever like baptists vs. catholics, christians vs. moslems, etc. IOW, the analogy is faulty. Anyone who actually understands science, or who is not speaking from prejudice and just trying to "spin" things to fit into his preconceived notions, would not attempt to make this analogy.

Science has to do with actually understanding. Religion is based on wish-fulfillment. Science is based on finding the best theory to actually explain observed facts. Religion is based on authority and condemnation of competing authorities. Science holds up objectivity as an ideal to work toward. Religion is subjective in its essense and proudly so. Science can actually make progress in its efforts in time, though sometimes it is slow, and it is accompanied by a lot of screaming and hollering. Religion only changes when it is forced to and then with an INCREDIBLE amount of screaming, hollering, and many times violence and murder.

IOW, these are two entirely different approaches to life.

But thanks for caring to send your very best, preacher. It's just not good enough.

[JGL57]

Agreement would be nice, but I would settle for empathy, understanding, and compassion. Why is that so hard?

Beautiful. But try to get your message to those who believe in a literal hell for the "sin" of not agreeing with them.

I merely believe that those who disagree with me on significant issues concerning ontology are merely wrong. And I will admit the possibility that, being human, I could be wrong and my opponents could theoretically be right - or we both could be wrong.

Try getting your average bible-thumper to empathize with me in the above attitude. And good luck with that, my friend.

[motherhubbard]

I think on this often. I suppose I would probably fall into the Bible-thumper category, being a devout follower- and the wife of a preacher, but I just can’t understand the kind of attitude that we are both aware of. I do believe in a literal hell for sin, but it’s not for me to say that someone is going to hell. I’m worried enough about keeping myself from it. It’s a lot of work to try to keep myself on the straight and narrow, so to speak. Like you I believe that I could be wrong, I constantly examine. I think that this is where the attitude comes from. I think that many fail to objectively examine themselves. Anyone can prove what they want to prove to themselves. I hope I’m making since. I think that the hateful attitude comes from fear and ignorance. Perhaps people take that attitude because they don’t want to question their own beliefs and find that they were wrong. I believe that by questioning one can obtain greater knowledge and strength. I’ve certainly grown from my mistakes more than from my successes. Aren’t we supposed to be loving? Is that universal to all religions? I have a limited knowledge of other religions, but from what I’ve seen that’s universal. I hope I don’t sound critical.

[JGL57]

I think on this often. I suppose I would probably fall into the Bible-thumper category, being a devout follower- and the wife of a preacher, but I just can’t understand the kind of attitude that we are both aware of. I do believe in a literal hell for sin, but it’s not for me to say that someone is going to hell. I’m worried enough about keeping myself from it. It’s a lot of work to try to keep myself on the straight and narrow, so to speak. Like you I believe that I could be wrong, I constantly examine. I think that this is where the attitude comes from. I think that many fail to objectively examine themselves. Anyone can prove what they want to prove to themselves. I hope I’m making since. I think that the hateful attitude comes from fear and ignorance. Perhaps people take that attitude because they don’t want to question their own beliefs and find that they were wrong. I believe that by questioning one can obtain greater knowledge and strength. I’ve certainly grown from my mistakes more than from my successes. Aren’t we supposed to be loving? Is that universal to all religions? I have a limited knowledge of other religions, but from what I’ve seen that’s universal. I hope I don’t sound critical.

Your post here is in the same spirit as the talk given by an ex-Baptist preacher I heard this past weekend at my local Unitarian-Universalist fellowship.

The guy was in his mid-60s and had spent his life, up until about 4 years ago, as a traditionalist literalist christian.

He suddenly just lost it and began to realize that his religion was based, ultimately, on fear and guilt - the language of love used by baptists did not ring true anymore to him. He has now changed to the point where

1. He believes that a literal eternal hell is just a sick idea that he can no longer accept in any way.

2. He still believes in a god and an afterlife, but the god he believes in now is understood only in terms of love, i.e., a loving relationship with all persons. Love cannot involve or countenance fear or guilt regarding the ultimate source of our experienced reality.

3. Thus, he believes in universal salvation for all persons, regardless of what religious belief they follow. i.e., being a christian is not necessary for a personal relationship with god.


In his talk he mentioned that he accepted all, including unbelievers or atheists, as children of god, and believed it possible for even such to be persons of good will.

I was somewhat moved by his talk and in chatting with him afterwards, we didn't even get to the "agree to disagree" language - we just talked of what we agreed upon, seeing that is what is of importance, as opposed to focusing on disagreement. What we basically agreed upon was that how one lived one's life and one's relationship with people in general was the important thing in life, and not getting others to agree to some abstract concept concerning the ultimate questions of life - i.e., god belief vs. atheism/agnosticism is a less important decision than that of love/good will vs. fear/guilt.

BTW, he was still involved as an counselor with many relatives and friends who remained in the fold - his job for decades had been the associate pastor in a large church, serving mainly as a spiritual and grief counselor (his own wife now suffers from Alzheimer's, I learned).

He expressed the fact that he was quite aware he had grown up and lived in kind of cultural bubble and knew little of non-christian religions or cultures, so I recommended he read some Thomas Merton, Michael Novak, and/or Alan Watts, just to get into some radically different perspectives than that in which he had been indoctrinated all of his life.

So, yes, MH, love vs. fear is the ultimate question. I sense an agreement here between us.

[Lote-Tree]

And do you think if the Abrahamic Triad United - it will resolve the problem between them or the world would become such a peaceful place?

[Pendragon]

IOW, these are two entirely different approaches to life.

But thanks for caring to send your very best, preacher. It's just not good enough.

And my best regards for your honesty. I see you ask people to allow you your choice of belief freely. I always have. I am no man's judge, regardless of whether or not we may agree. My one statement has always been this one, borrowed from Charles Schultz via Snoopy: "Has It Ever Occurred To You That You Could Be Wrong?" That is the premise upon which I base my life, that I could be wrong after all. There is no shame in admitting that one doesn't have all the answers or cannot explain everything. The universe is vast, and we live in a tiny speck of it. There are new discoveries being made every day. Things we thought we knew, we now have to rethink because along comes something that makes the puzzle pieces harder to fit together. But we live and learn and grow.

I never discount Science, without it, I would have a hard time living a fairly normal life. I just say that Science cannot explain everything anymore that a God-fearing "Bible-thumper", your term, I believe, can. The evidence lies on the side of Science for those who wish to have things they can see and feel. For those to whom faith is enough, the question is settled.

For me, I need both, so I'm a little different. You have a wonderful day, mon ami. And, yes, a preacher and an atheist can be friends, for I will never judge you. You must follow your own path, as I must follow mine.

Pen

[motherhubbard]

Here is a bit of a personal paradox. I believe that I am right in my religious beliefs, but I know that I could be wrong. If I did not think I was right then I would change. I also think that there are others that are wrong. Where I live there is a big KKK. I frankly believe that they are wrong, I just can’t help it. I can’t bring myself to say it’s OK to preach hate. But I cannot force my beliefs on another, I could talk until I’m blue in the face and still not convince another. What can I do? What I’m saying is I don’t think that any of us can change the world for the better by force or with hatefulness. There will be division as long as time exist. We should be able to love each other and feel concern for each other in spite of our differences. Most of the people I love disagree with me in religion and politicks, but I love them and want them to have the best possible life. That is not hard for me and I can’t understand why it is hard for others.

When it comes to living life on earth it should not be such an issue that we cannot get along. We should treat others with love and respect. If not for the sake of others but for our own benefit. It can’t feel good to be full of scorn and anger. That’s my opinion.

I hope I haven’t offended any Klan members. I know many who are otherwise nice people.

[hyperborean]

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace " -Lennon

[Aunty-lion]

And my best regards for your honesty. I see you ask people to allow you your choice of belief freely. I always have. I am no man's judge, regardless of whether or not we may agree. My one statement has always been this one, borrowed from Charles Schultz via Snoopy: "Has It Ever Occurred To You That You Could Be Wrong?" That is the premise upon which I base my life, that I could be wrong after all. There is no shame in admitting that one doesn't have all the answers or cannot explain everything. The universe is vast, and we live in a tiny speck of it. There are new discoveries being made every day. Things we thought we knew, we now have to rethink because along comes something that makes the puzzle pieces harder to fit together. But we live and learn and grow.

I never discount Science, without it, I would have a hard time living a fairly normal life. I just say that Science cannot explain everything anymore that a God-fearing "Bible-thumper", your term, I believe, can. The evidence lies on the side of Science for those who wish to have things they can see and feel. For those to whom faith is enough, the question is settled.

For me, I need both, so I'm a little different. You have a wonderful day, mon ami. And, yes, a preacher and an atheist can be friends, for I will never judge you. You must follow your own path, as I must follow mine.

Pen

What I am wondering Pendragon, is do you think that those atheist friends of yours are going to burn in hell?

I didn't mean for that to sound snarky, so I'm sorry if it did, but I honestly want to know. I have always had friends from many different faiths, and there are many different faiths (and lack of faiths) within my family.

But lately a thought has begun to knaw away at me: 'Do my friends think I'm going to Hell?'

I'm a good person, and I don't like the idea that I am being judged (not by God or anything, but by my friends).

It's a bit of a tricky question to pose to people you know (in real life) so I thought I'd put it to you (you always seem so open to query).

Thanks in advance.

Aunty xox

[Pendragon]

What I am wondering Pendragon, is do you think that those atheist friends of yours are going to burn in hell?

I didn't mean for that to sound snarky, so I'm sorry if it did, but I honestly want to know. I have always had friends from many different faiths, and there are many different faiths (and lack of faiths) within my family.

But lately a thought has begun to knaw away at me: 'Do my friends think I'm going to Hell?'

I'm a good person, and I don't like the idea that I am being judged (not by God or anything, but by my friends).

It's a bit of a tricky question to pose to people you know (in real life) so I thought I'd put it to you (you always seem so open to query).

Thanks in advance.

Aunty xox

Do I think anyone is going to burn in hell might be a better way to phrase it. Unfortunately, yes, I think there will be those that will. But, I have no right to say who will or for what reason. I also think a lot of people who think they are bound for the pearly gates are in for a big surprise at the end of the road. And again, I cannot put anyone in or out; I am no man's judge.

But if love is the key, as Jesus taught, I have often found more love from those who profess nothing than those who claim Christianity. I have an illness, quite treatable, with modern medicine. I'm Bi-Polar. The Christian Churches I was with threw me out as demon possessed. I hold no animosity, it is their own loss, not mine. God opened another door.

Why if love is the key, should those who love enough to give their lives for others be cast into hell, as Jesus Himself said that was the Greatest Love? I believe there will be those who make it that the entirety of religion would cast away and those who will miss the boat in spite of their alleged piety.

This is not a double standard. This is using love as a guide as Jesus did.

I hope this answers your question. God bless. Pen.

[motherhubbard]

The Christian Churches I was with threw me out as demon possessed.

Pen,

I'm so sorry. That must have been very hurtful. I can't believe what some people do, and in your hour of need. :(

I for one am glad to know you. I think you're A #1, top of the heap! :thumbs_up

[Uncle Lar]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

As I write this post, I keep the following Bible Verse in mind:

"And we know that in all things
God works for the good of those who love him,
who have been called according to his purpose."
(Romans 8:28, New International Version)

In my personal opinion, Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God, but differ in their views of Jesus as The Messiah. I personally choose to be a Christian and am well aware others do not share my beliefs.

According to the book of Genesis, all human beings are created in God's image:

"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."
(Genesis 1:27, New International Version)

With this verse in mind, I believe practicing Christians, Jews, and Muslims go to God in search of His purpose for them. Some people will accept Christ as the Messiah and others will not. Since God created Christians, Jews, Muslims, and other human beings in His image, He does not want any of His Children to suffer, but gives everyone the option to follow Him.

It is not for me to say how God's mind works. As a Christian, I personally choose to recognize Jesus as the Son of God, who died and rose from the dead in order to save Humanity from eternal destruction; I cannot find any other example of the Supreme Being sacrificing its Offspring to save Humanity in such a way. Muslims, Jews, and others disagree with me about Christ. Although I do not share the views of Muslims and Jews about Christ, I applaud their search for God and hope they will find peace.

I base my opinion on the Holy Bible, which gives several examples of Christians/Followers of God who are at odds against those who deny God and Christ. Some Jews, Muslims, and others will convert to Christianity, some will not. It seems to me the world at large continues to ignore God. The best I can do, in my opinion, is walk the Christian path I have personally chosen, pray for others and myself, and ask for God's will to be done over mine.

"Open thou mine eyes,
that I may behold wondrous things
out of thy law."
(Psalm 119:18, King James Version)


May God bless you and your loved ones now and forevermore.

:thumbs_up

Sincerely,

Uncle Lar

[Lote-Tree]

Finite Life and Eternal Damantion = unjust God

Eternal Damnation for mere unbelief in a God? = Unjust God.

Even in our Human Societies we have outlawed Torture as a Punishment.

[Uncle Lar]

Finite Life and Eternal Damantion = unjust God

Eternal Damnation for mere unbelief in a God? = Unjust God.

Even in our Human Societies we have outlawed Torture as a Punishment.

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,'
declares the LORD."
(Isaiah 55:8, New International Version)

I believe it is very important to keep in mind that a Finite Being (Human) cannot fully comprehend the Infinite (God).

Sincerely,

Uncle Lar

[motherhubbard]

Uncle Lar,

I believe that you spoke beautifully. It is a hard saying when you believe that someone else stands condemned, however like God it is not what you want for them and that is evident in your compassionate postings. I agree with you.

I would like to add that a person’s beliefs or the way that they choose to worship or not worship has nothing to do with me or anyone else. It has to do with them and God. So as a Christian I believe that I know the truth. I know I do, of course. However, so do faithful Jews and Muslims. We all believe that we have the answer and that is one more thing we have in common. Before we can all get along we must first get along with ourselves. How many divisions are there among the Jews or the Muslims or the Christians? Thousands. I agree with very few Christians, but I still love them and believe that I need to be a light unto the world. Do I try to teach them? Of course. Generally speaking, I believe that we are all convinced that we need try to teach others the truth. So the Muslim is praying for my soul just as I am praying for his. What a loving relationship. And isn’t this the beginning?

We should have more
I’m trying to do what is right
What can I do to be better
I love my neighbor
I fall short
God created us for his pleasure

and less
I’m right
you need to …..
I hate those darn…..
you’re going to hell
God doesn’t recognize you

The list goes on and on. It is so easy to correct another man’s sin, but difficult to even recognize one’s own sin.

Another thing to consider is that we all start from a different spot on this journey that is life and we will all end in a different spot. That can’t be helped. Some people will always question and search out a higher truth. Some people will never question what they are told and just follow like sheep. Some people will become confused and disillusioned by all of the division. We each just have to correct our own mistakes and accept that others are just not where we are and that doesn‘t make them less or more correct. There will always be someone with a better and a worse understanding.

I love the process. I love learning. I love growing.

[Uncle Lar]

Very well said, motherhubbard!

Your comments ring true.

I hope all will find salvation and peace someday soon.

Sincerely,

Uncle Lar

[Stieg]

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,'
declares the LORD."
(Isaiah 55:8, New International Version)

I believe it is very important to keep in mind that a Finite Being (Human) cannot fully comprehend the Infinite (God).

Sincerely,

Uncle Lar

But what I can comprehend is a whole race from it's infancy to it's final judgement divided by religions and according to same said subject divided by eternal fates. Sorry to be flippant, if the atheists, hypocrites, and the believers that sat in the wrong pews are incorrect, why not condemn us to an eternal ghetto garbed in sackcloth and forced to perform janitorial duties. Heh. While the righteous believers are set in an eternal gated Bel-air community with visiting rights to their relatives "left behind".

Coy, yes, but principles straight from the heart.

[Aunty-lion]

Do I think anyone is going to burn in hell might be a better way to phrase it. Unfortunately, yes, I think there will be those that will. But, I have no right to say who will or for what reason. I also think a lot of people who think they are bound for the pearly gates are in for a big surprise at the end of the road. And again, I cannot put anyone in or out; I am no man's judge.

But if love is the key, as Jesus taught, I have often found more love from those who profess nothing than those who claim Christianity. I have an illness, quite treatable, with modern medicine. I'm Bi-Polar. The Christian Churches I was with threw me out as demon possessed. I hold no animosity, it is their own loss, not mine. God opened another door.

Why if love is the key, should those who love enough to give their lives for others be cast into hell, as Jesus Himself said that was the Greatest Love? I believe there will be those who make it that the entirety of religion would cast away and those who will miss the boat in spite of their alleged piety.

This is not a double standard. This is using love as a guide as Jesus did.

I hope this answers your question. God bless. Pen.

As Love is the God I worship, I think we are somewhat on the same page Brother Pen.

Thankyou for your meaningful response.

Those who have banished you are clearly blinded, but luckily love (and God in your eyes) is eternal, and there is always another door.

Walk through it with faith (I'm sure you already have), for nothing is worse than waiting outside, taking no chances and having no love.

Ko aku mihi nui me taku aroha ki a koe e hoa,

Aunty xox

[Lote-Tree]

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,'
declares the LORD."


Even with above:

Finite Life and Eternal Damnation makes God Unjust. We should not try to justify the unjustifiable even for a God.



I believe it is very important to keep in mind that a Finite Being (Human) cannot fully comprehend the Infinite (God).


Even as human beings we have outlawed Torture. For God to Torture for all Eternity for mere unbelief in him - makes God the most vilest, hideous monster that human mind can concieve - there is nothing loving about such a God. There is nothing compassionate about this God. Therefore the quicker we get rid of these kinds of understanding of God then so much better for us.

[Pendragon]

Even with above:

Finite Life and Eternal Damnation makes God Unjust. We should not try to justify the unjustifiable even for a God.



Even as human beings we have outlawed Torture. For God to Torture for all Eternity for mere unbelief in him - makes God the most vilest, hideous monster that human mind can concieve - there is nothing loving about such a God. There is nothing compassionate about this God. Therefore the quicker we get rid of these kinds of understanding of God then so much better for us.I think it goes a bit further than mere unbelief, mon ami. While I know that many teach that as their cornerstone, a statement of belief is simply that. I can say I believe I can fly but it will not cause me to suddenly grow wings. As I said, Jesus taught love, and Paul in I Corinthians 13 expounds on the topic, that without it, the rest is useless. John 1,2, and 3 all talk of love as the key. Many other parts of the New Testament refer to love as key. Hatred has no place in religion, and if it is there, I suggest that the person examin themselves, not everyone else for the problem. Love, or the lack thereof, will go a long way with God. People see the outside, they always have. God sees the heart, what makes a person who he or she is at the very core. Like I said, many may be in for a shock come doomsday...

[Lote-Tree]

As I said, Jesus taught love, and Paul in I Corinthians 13 expounds on the topic, that without it, the rest is useless. John 1,2, and 3 all talk of love as the key.


Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.



Many other parts of the New Testament refer to love as key.


If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...

[mtpspur]

Love is key (in a broad sense) for the motive the Lord Christ had in becoming man, living life amongst us then giving up his life as a substitute sacrifice for sin. Eternal Torture is the result of rejecting the Lord Christ standing in our place. Personally I believe that the Holiness of God required the VERY strong reaction to sin. In God's eye it is no minor thing but a rejection of the creature to the creator. I doubt anyone can understand what the Lord Christ suffered on the cross but we have a glimpse of it from His cry of 'My God My God why has thou forsaken me as recorded in Mark. Mankind being human it is admitted that it is hard to grasp the foreverness of God but does not change the conditions. Love is ultimately the greatest expression of God's regard for his creations and His desire to be glorified in His Son. Hope this helps.

[Pendragon]

Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.



If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...From what I have read of your statements on the evolution vs. creationism thread, I am not really certain that you seek an understanding of God at all, since you do not believe that God exists. But I am not your judge, as I have always pointed out. Is it the "eternal damnation" hurtle that you are finding difficulty getting out of the way? Is that your major stumbling block?

OK. Let me put this in terms of our court system. Persons A, B and C are involved in a robbery in which person A murders a man. Person B has nothing to do with the murder, and did not pull the trigger. Person C merely drove the car. All three are charged with the murder and in some states, all can receive the death penalty. Certainly all will receive longer sentences because of person A's actions. Is this justice? Two who had no hand in the murder, and who even berate the murderer, suffer because of what person A did?

You may say, well, they had knowledge of the crime, and were there. True. So do people know, whether they believe in God or not, that what they are doing is right or wrong. I say that ethics and morality extend only to what one would do if one were certain no one would ever find out. That is your core of ethics and morality.

So if you do not believe in God, or even if you do, what you are inside your soul is what you are. The outside may look good, may pass inspection. God inspects the heart and soul. To be perfectly frank, it amazes me that any of us think we are worthy of heaven. There is something called "Grace". And God said, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy." You may never understand what I am saying, I don't know. But think about it, OK? God bless.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/Friends.gif

[stephofthenight]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...i dont mean to offend anyone i just want some answers

[quasimodo1]

The probability of believers uniting is about the same as humans learning to love the process of re-evaluation. Isn't that the key to any change of mindset?

[motherhubbard]

1.ok, people say that god has your life planed out, right? and that he has everything in an order to happen and that he will never test us with more then we can handle. the why do innocent children get murdered, why do kids kill themselfs, why do we lose innocent men and women in iraq, and why does he plan for children to lose there parents? e
2.if we are made in god's image, and god is perfect and sinless then should we not be perfect and sinless as well?
3. (this is the main one) god says whoever takes their own life will go to hell basicly, well if god plans our lifes before we are born, then he nkows that people are going to kill themselfs so it is almost like he plans for them to commit suicide and not get to go to hevan???

i dont nkow. my grandfather was a preacher, and he died a few years ago, and then my longterm bf of 4yrs killed himself 2days before our anniversry, so if god had that planned then he isnt a god of love...explain,if you can...i dont mean to offend anyone i just want some answers



First of all, I totally understand how you are feeling. Life can really be unfair sometimes. It can really be hard to make since of things. Especially when your heart is hurting. I think your questions are valid and common.

Your first question has to do with predestination. The idea that God plans out every step you take. That’s not really how it works. God gives us all choices had then hopes we choose well. The same is true in parenthood. A parent might say you have to clean your room in order to go out on the weekend. Then it’s the child’s choice. If they choose not to clean their room they have chosen to stay in on the weekend. God’s plan is perfect. It’s when people make bad choices that things get screwed up. God didn’t plan for innocent men and women in Iraq to die, but people have screwed things up. The Bible says that God wants everyone to go to heaven. It also says that all things work together to good for those who love God. Suffering can often bring us closer to God. Personally (this is my own belief that I can’t find a scripture to back up) I think that our worldly suffering is secondary to the big issue which is eternal salvation. I’ve often heard it said that we all have a sack of rocks to drag, meaning that we all have something to deal with and we all have a burden to carry.

Your second point was about the image of God. People have free will. We can choose to be godly or not. Even when we attempt godliness we fall short, because while we are made in the image of God, we are not God or gods ourselves.

The third thing you mentioned was suicide. I don’t know where it says one goes to hell for suicide. I know everyone says that Judas was condemned to hell for taking his life, but I think that it was a forgiveness issue. Christ would have forgiven him. He did not forgive himself. He lost his faith. I have known people who have taken their own lives. I have battled with the desire myself. It’s not for us to say if someone goes to Heaven or Hell, that is only up to God. And remember that God is a loving and forgiving God. Only He knows the heart of man.

I hope you are able to work things out in your heart.

[stephofthenight]

thanks...leviticus has the quotes. and umm. there is something else i want to ask about... god is agains homosexuality right? well he forgives undyingly right? so like if i was bi and asked for forgivness every day, i would still be forgiven right?

[Nightshade]

Ummm is forgivness based on 'he who acknowledges his sin and repents, then does not repeat it after he has acknowledged it as a sin.

As far as I know --in my religion anyway-- the only truly unforgivable sin is to purposly and delibratly commit a sin when you know and acknowledge it to be one. It comes under turning your face against God. At least thats what Ive always thought.

[motherhubbard]

There is a lot written in the Bible about homosexuality. I believe that the only place we can go to find out the truth about God is the Bible. God will forgive undyingly, there is nothing to terrible for God to forgive. And there is no new sin in the world, so it’s been addressed. It’s not for me to judge, all I can do is go through the scriptures and see what it says about homosexuality. That gives me a very unpopular and politically incorrect view.
No sin is any greater than another. I think a lot of people are really judgmental about homosexuality like they are above sin. I just always wonder what’s going on in their lives. We all have a temptation to deal with.

If you think it’s wrong then you need to go to God in prayer and ask for help. The thing about forgiveness is that it hinges upon repentance. Sometimes a temptation can feel too great to overcome alone, but you’re not alone if God is with you.

[Lote-Tree]

From what I have read of your statements on the evolution vs. creationism thread, I am not really certain that you seek an understanding of God at all, since you do not believe that God exists.


Even if God does not exist - "God" has been one of the Greatest Ideas of Humanity for All Time. We can, even in this context, try to develop a better understanding of this Idea of God, and how it has shaped humanity over the thousands of years of human history.



But I am not your judge, as I have always pointed out.


No one can judge you. We judge ourselves. True Punishment is living with the consequences of your actions in time.



Is it the "eternal damnation" hurtle that you are finding difficulty getting out of the way? Is that your major stumbling block?


No. It is this that highlights the contradiction in our Ideas of God. All loving God and Eternal Damnation - Contradictory. Just like Omniscience and Omnipotent etc are contradictory.



OK. Let me put this in terms of our court system. Persons A, B and C are involved in a robbery in which person A murders a man. Person B has nothing to do with the murder, and did not pull the trigger. Person C merely drove the car. All three are charged with the murder and in some states, all can receive the death penalty. Certainly all will receive longer sentences because of person A's actions. Is this justice? Two who had no hand in the murder, and who even berate the murderer, suffer because of what person A did?


We are talking about Man and God and not Man and Man.



I say that ethics and morality extend only to what one would do if one were certain no one would ever find out. That is your core of ethics and morality.


This is not what research points to. Secular European societies with no capital punishment have vastly lower homicide rates than America. I think we have evolved to be ethical animals regardless of a belief in a God.



So if you do not believe in God, or even if you do, what you are inside your soul is what you are.


That is why "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao" and "Brahman-Atman" have always been subjective experiences of the individual.

[weepingforloman]

It takes WAY more than what you stated to unite people from different religions, and even people from the same religion but different cults. I personally pray that all believers would unite someday, and we'll actually forget for ONE second that we may not be from the same religion, but heck we're following the same God...that's good enough for me.
But this is easier said than done if you ask me, from what I see, the idea of superiority is the dominating idea now, everyone is so proud of his/her religion to the extent that they resent and hate people from other religions and cults, and considering them the wrong and evil side.
So I believe that unitll people change thier attitude towards each other, there will be NO unity.

Disagree with, yes; hate, no. Think it's the wrong side, yes; think it's the evil side, no. It's more complex than you think. I've said this before, and I'll probably say it again: there, logically, must be one faith that's at least a little closer to the truth than others (even agnosticism involves some faith, in the negative sense). If you say that all religions are equally acceptable, you'd better start saying that all answers to everything are equally acceptable. The problem is that people begin by assuming that God/spirituality are not real in the same sense as things like mathematics, science, psychology, history, etc., but even if atheism is correct, that still means that there is some fact about the spiritual world (namely that it wouldn't exist). Not that I am atheist, mind you.

[weepingforloman]

Love and Compassion is also taught by Buddha but Buddhist "Nirvana" is Godless. Hence they too would end up burning in hell for rejection of God.



If Love is the key - how does that equate with Eternal Torture?

Buddhist also teach love and compassion for all life but Buddhist Nirvana is Godless.

Therefore we must seek a better understanding of "God" that goes beyond the term "believers" and "unbelievers" and "Eternal Damanation"...
Eternal torture? Do you recognize symbolism? We don't know for sure that Hell is actually going to be enforced punishment... Not that I necessarily agree with it, or even know what to think about Hell, but C.S. Lewis talked about Hell being the result of unchecked progression (eternity is a freakin' long time) of personal faults and sins. Further, consider that a parent punishes out of love. Consider further the state of humanity: screwed up, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very badly... Very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very BAD. We all deserve Hell. It's just a question of who's gonna take one of the "Get out of Jail Free" cards.

[hyperborean]

Hell was made up by christians, so they can scare people into joining their cult. Once there's a good god there needs to be a bad god. This gives the "good god" more power and likability.

"Mankind has just as much need for an evil god as for a good god; it doesn't have to thank mere tolerance and humanitarianism for its own existence. . . . What would be the value of a god who knew nothing of anger, revenge, envy, scorn, cunning, violence?"
-Nietzsche, Antichrist

[Redzeppelin]

Hell was made up by christians, so they can scare people into joining their cult. Once there's a good god there needs to be a bad god. This gives the "good god" more power and likability.

"Mankind has just as much need for an evil god as for a good god; it doesn't have to thank mere tolerance and humanitarianism for its own existence. . . . What would be the value of a god who knew nothing of anger, revenge, envy, scorn, cunning, violence?"
-Nietzsche, Antichrist

Completely false. Christians may be guilty of misinterpreting the actual nature of Hell, but they didn't make it up. Fear may drive some people to believe, but it won't get them into heaven. That requires trust and love.

[hyperborean]

The pope didn't rid of purgatory for nothing...it was no longer needed. and yes man did create hell...heaven as well.

[Redzeppelin]

The pope didn't rid of purgatory for nothing...it was no longer needed. and yes man did create hell...heaven as well.

If he did, then why wasn't he more descriptive in his creation? Dante did a far better job than the Bible did. If humanity created heaven, hell and the Bible, why didn't humanity give us a really appealing description of heaven and a really detailed, scary picture of Hell?

The pope's dismissal of purgatory was to correct medieval Catholic doctrine that created it in the first place. Purgatory isn't Hell proper anyway.

[hyperborean]

Then again the guy that helped us get out of the dark ages (dante) was smarter than the average man. His detailed description of hell wasn't there to scare people...it was to get people to reevaluate themselves. You can't compare the writers of the bible to the writer of a renaissance piece.

[Redzeppelin]

Then again the guy that helped us get out of the dark ages (dante) was smarter than the average man. His detailed description of hell wasn't there to scare people...it was to get people to reevaluate themselves. You can't compare the writers of the bible to the writer of a renaissance piece.

My point (which you bypassed addressing) is that the Biblical description of hell - if written by humans - is woefully inadequate to "scare" anybody. Dante's version is far more effective in scaring people than the Bible is.

[Lote-Tree]

Eternal torture? Do you recognize symbolism? We don't know for sure that Hell is actually going to be enforced punishment...


We can only go by what the scripture says. And the scriptures makes it abundantly clear - Hell is quite erm - Hellish!!!...in Quranic description of Hell for example - unbelievers are boiled and roasted alive...and then their burnt skins are changed for fresh skin so that they can experience the pain to it's full again and again and again for all eternity.

[weepingforloman]

I'm not Muslim...

[Pendragon]

As to the suicide issue brought up by stephofthenight: I do not find it said anywhere in my Bible that it is an unpardonable sin. Most who commit suicide are not in control of themselves at the time anyway. For the record, I had two attempts myself before I was 19. Judging the person is not up to us.

Homosexuality is unnatural. Two males or two females cannot produce offspring. If this occurred in nature, a vast change in biology would be necessary or the species would quickly become extinct. The Bible calls it “immoral”. That’s between the person and God, not me, the person, and God. I am not the Judge. Let each person work it out on their own. I know gay people and have gay friends. They are aware that I don’t approve. I never mention it. We get on fine.

The best sermon you will ever prech is how you treat others and how you react under pressure. God Bless.

[Pendragon]

We can only go by what the scripture says. And the scriptures makes it abundantly clear - Hell is quite erm - Hellish!!!...in Quranic description of Hell for example - unbelievers are boiled and roasted alive...and then their burnt skins are changed for fresh skin so that they can experience the pain to it's full again and again and again for all eternity.

I see that you love to pick apart other's statements, and any value that they may have is then made incoherent. You must be a lawyer; this sounds exactly like a lawyer’s way of cross-examination. It is impossible to make someone see who refuses to open their eyes; or change someone's mind when it is already programmed to reject anything except what is already there. So mon ami, long may you live and prosper. If I should turn out to be right at the end of it all, my hands are clean, I have tried to help people. If I am wrong, then I am wrong—but I will not go into the darkness worrying about a wasted life. This is what I do. God bless.

[NSAM]

As to the suicide issue brought up by stephofthenight: I do not find it said anywhere in my Bible that it is an unpardonable sin..

Im sure that suicide was only demonised by Dante's inferno,
Which was, we must remember, rejected by the church immediately after publication

His metaphorical representation of Hell has however become entangled with heathen and traditional views of hell, and historically accepted as Christian ideas

[Whifflingpin]

Pendragon: "Homosexuality is unnatural. Two males or two females cannot produce offspring. If this occurred in nature, a vast change in biology would be necessary or the species would quickly become extinct. "

If homosexuality suddenly became universal then the species would become extinct. However, overpopulation can also be an issue, and nature provides various mechanisms for reducing birthrates.

Homosexuality may therefore be just such a natural mechanism.

The Bible may or may not call it immoral - in the times when the bible was written, underpopulation was perhaps more of a problem. In the current times, widespread homosexuality would perhaps be the most moral and natural solution to the overpopulation of the world by humans.

[hyperborean]

Homosexuality exists because of society. I think I've said this before on this forum...there is no genetic link to homosexuality. The connection has been debunked.

[Lote-Tree]

I see that you love to pick apart other's statements, and any value that they may have is then made incoherent. You must be a lawyer; this sounds exactly like a lawyer’s way of cross-examination.


Hey? I only have given you a description of hell from scripture from one of the Abrahamic Religions.

No. I am not lawyer. I am just ordinary joe bloggs who asks the must difficult as well as the most easiest of question.



It is impossible to make someone see who refuses to open their eyes; or change someone's mind when it is already programmed to reject anything except what is already there.


My mind is quite open but it is not naieve. It asks the most difficult and also the obivious of question. It is through questioning that we make progress in both the intellectual and the spiritual.



So mon ami, long may you live and prosper.


Go in peace.

Shalom, Shantih, Salam and Peace.



If I should turn out to be right at the end of it all, my hands are clean, I have tried to help people.


Don't worry about a thing in that regard. If your hands are clean then thats good for you.

Well I try to do is to make people Think For Themselves and not rely on others to their thinking for them. It is when we Think For Ourselves that we set ourselves Free...



If I am wrong, then I am wrong—but I will not go into the darkness worrying about a wasted life. This is what I do. God bless.

A life lived with compassion and love for others is never a wasted life.

[Pendragon]

Hey? I only have given you a description of hell from scripture from one of the Abrahamic Religions.

No. I am not lawyer. I am just ordinary joe bloggs who asks the must difficult as well as the most easiest of question.



My mind is quite open but it is not naieve. It asks the most difficult and also the obivious of question. It is through questioning that we make progress in both the intellectual and the spiritual.



Go in peace.

Shalom, Shantih, Salam and Peace.



Don't worry about a thing in that regard. If your hands are clean then thats good for you.

Well I try to do is to make people Think For Themselves and not rely on others to their thinking for them. It is when we Think For Ourselves that we set ourselves Free...



A life lived with compassion and love for others is never a wasted life.I believe I may owe you an apology. If that was your intent, just to picture hell from some's rather unrealistic view of hell, then I apologize for what I said about you picking it apart.

I only ask people this: The Bible states that Eternal life is the gift of God to the believer. To burn in hell for eternity would require eternal life, which the unbeliever is not promised. No where does it use the word "eternal" it says "forever and ever" or "until ages of ages". This is an unknown time span. It will end, for death and hell are cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. Total destuction of body and soul, as Jesus told people: "fear not man who can but destroy this body, fear Him that is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If I cared nothing for people, I would say "Hey. I'm safe. Go to hell if you want. What do I care?" But I love and care for people and warn them. God Bless, and I apologize again, mon ami. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/Friends.gif

[Redzeppelin]

If homosexuality suddenly became universal then the species would become extinct. However, overpopulation can also be an issue, and nature provides various mechanisms for reducing birthrates.

Homosexuality may therefore be just such a natural mechanism.

There are other "natural mechanisms" (disease, famine, natural disaster) that accomplish de-populization just fine.


The Bible may or may not call it immoral - in the times when the bible was written, underpopulation was perhaps more of a problem. In the current times, widespread homosexuality would perhaps be the most moral and natural solution to the overpopulation of the world by humans.

There is no "may" - the Bible is unequivocal in its condemnation of homosexual behavior. Calling it "moral" because it might address a social ill (overpopulation) means that morality is a social expedient and has no transcendant meaning - which means it has - ultimately - no authority except that which we give it.

[Lote-Tree]

But I love and care for people and warn them. God Bless, and I apologize again, mon ami.


There is no need for an apology Pen. But thanks anyway :-)

If you can live with love and compassion for those that you have around it you then that is good enough. And if you can encourage others to cultivate love and compassion for others too then that's truly good too - there is no need to warn them of anything...

Go in peace :-)

Shalom, Salam, Shantih and Peace
Regards,
Lote

[Scheherazade]

Once at school during 'Religious Teachings' class, I told the teacher that it didn't make sense that someone who invented things and helped humanity (saved many lives) should go to Hell just because they didn't share our religious beliefs (his subject for the day). He said since they were clever enough to invent all those things, they should have put their God-given intelligence into 'good use' and choose the 'right' religion as well. I replied saying maybe they were too busy trying to help the humanity in this world to worry about their spiritual wellbeing in the afterlife. Then I was informed that defending such people wouldn't help my wellbeing in the afterlife either.

I was 12 at the time. The decades passing since then have not changed my view much. Since we keep concentrating on our differences, believers will not unite.

[Lote-Tree]

Since we keep concentrating on our differences, believers will not unite.

I think belief thrives on such differenes. Just like football fan thrives on the little differences between their chosen teams...though I agree that football does not tries to answer the meaning of life etc.. :-)

[kilted exile]

.though I agree that football does not tries to answer the meaning of life etc.. :-)

Ahem, have you forgotten what the great Bill Shankly once said about football "Its not a matter of life & death, its far more important than that"

[weepingforloman]

I think your referring to your European football, eh laddie? And are you sure that's not about cricket? Someone said something like that about cricket, not sure who.


Once at school during 'Religious Teachings' class, I told the teacher that it didn't make sense that someone who invented things and helped humanity (saved many lives) should go to Hell just because they didn't share our religious beliefs (his subject for the day). He said since they were clever enough to invent all those things, they should have put their God-given intelligence into 'good use' and choose the 'right' religion as well. I replied saying maybe they were too busy trying to help the humanity in this world to worry about their spiritual wellbeing in the afterlife. Then I was informed that defending such people wouldn't help my wellbeing in the afterlife either.

I was 12 at the time. The decades passing since then have not changed my view much. Since we keep concentrating on our differences, believers will not unite.

I think this once again merits my old speech: the problem is that people assume spiritual reality is not in the same category as mundane reality. However, this is inherently impossible: even if the spiritual world does not exist, that is still a fact, so it has a semblance of reality--something has to be right, whether atheism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, any of the neo-Pagan religions, or even the old paganism--even if it's just Zeus up there, something still has to be right. I happen to believe that that is Christianity, but I think the agnostic-Unitarian blend is just indefensible.

[kilted exile]

I think your referring to your European football, eh laddie? And are you sure that's not about cricket? Someone said something like that about cricket, not sure who.

Pretty sure Lote is referring to European football (aka real football) as well. Someone may have copied it about cricket, but it was originally shanks about football

[weepingforloman]

Do you know where he's from? Who calls it "real football?" Who would dare such an obvious plagiarism? When will the questions cease?

[kilted exile]

Judging by posting times I'm pretty sure he is is the UK. I call it real football because for the vast majority of the time it is the foot that is used as compared to other types of football where the predominant appendage is the hand. Also because it existed before the other types of football, and is what the majority of the world recognises as football. But this is all really beside the point.

However football does relate to religion quite openly in Glasgow, if you think believers will ever unite walk through Easterhouse or Ibrox after an Old Firm game - your opinion will change

[weepingforloman]

I don't think "believers" (if we assume this means all the Semitic/Abrahamic faiths) will ever unite, nor did I say so. And all of the above were jokes. I'm aware of the preexistence of "football" (soccer) as compared to football, but rugby existed before both and was originally called "football." It was changed to "Rugby football" (after the Rugby School in England) when soccer ("football") emerged. But you're right, off topic. Yes, so, in conclusion, believers will not unite. Thank you, thank you.

[kilted exile]

Sorry to continue this but that last comment is just plain wrong I am aware Rugby is called "rugby football" as in RFU - I played it at actually a pretty high level. I am also aware of the first instance of Rugby taking place, The player picked up the football because he didnt enjoy the game and ran with it instead - it is something we used to joke about with the football players. There is a type of football that predates association football and that is the "Eton wall game" which has around a hundred players a game and games go can go on for days.
However my original comment was to be taken in jest. Thats pretty much all I have to say on the matter.

[weepingforloman]

The ancestor of rugby is a game that the Roman empire acquired from Asia called "harpastum." But again, this is totally irrelevant, and I apologize for saying it. I'll stop saying stuff now.

[Lote-Tree]

Ahem, have you forgotten what the great Bill Shankly once said about football "Its not a matter of life & death, its far more important than that"

Ah OK :-) To some Football is the Transcendental Meaning of Life :-)

Cricket is boring as watchig paint dry - but to some again - is the Alpha and Omega of Existence :-)

[Pendragon]

People can't even agree on sports and we expect them to ever agree on religion? Not as long as people take the "my way or the highway" attitude which seems to predominate so many. One quote should do it: "With God, all things are possible." But the human way of thinking is: "No way! This one is out because of this, and that one won't make it because of that!" None of us will make it with out God's Grace, so get off your self-righteous high horse and understand that when you judge others you judge yourself. What you measure with will be used to measure you (that’s St. Matthew 7:2).

God Bless

[Hyatt07]

I do not believe the two religions will ever unite. They have been warring for thousands of years and still to this day they fight. Why would they just set aside their differences and unite under one "master faith?" That defeats all logic, to me anyway.

[Nightshade]

I dont think people will unite because they are so busy yelling and arguing about the differances to pay attention to the similarities. And in just general religious note personally Im not too sure that following only one particular religion is the only way into heaven, in fact I cant belive it.

Its nice to think people will unite and we will have world peace etc but its very unrealistic and unlikley people being people.

[Pendragon]

Seeing yet another thread lock up on this section doesn't help give hope to the "Believers will one day unite" side of the equation. Let me see if I understand this: People believe that we are going to heaven after we die to live an eternal life of pure peace. Yet, while claiming to all be children of the One True God, they wind up fighting and insulting one another down here. What is wrong with this picture? How about this scriputure: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother who he hath seen, how can he love God who he hath not seen?" 1 John 4:20

It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but I only quoted it, I did not write it.

[Demian]

This is one of my favorite verses because it seems to affirm humanism before theories of the Otherworld. I call this a paradox verse, like the one where Jesus tells the Jews to search their scriptures to find evidence about him and also seems to devalue the scriptures themselves by saying, "in which you believe you have eternal life." Jesus had a number of paradoxical sayings like this, and I believe it was to shake up our preconceived notions about heaven, our life on earth, eternal life, etc.

[Virgil]

What an interesting thread. I had never come in here until now. I did not read the entire thread, so I apologize if I'm treading on repeated ground.

I don't think a universal religion will ever occur. Even in the fourth and fifth centuries Roman world, where you had essentially one official Roman Catholic church, there were divisions (sometimes labled heresies) that split whole populations into various camps. The question for me is a little different one. Everyone in this thread seems to be under the persuasion that one religion or fewer religions leads to more harmony. I am skeptical of that. The question is whether one or less religions is a good thing. Human beings seem to do two contradictory things: one unite into a group and two divide to create an other. This will always be. Is it better that the divisions are multiple and therefore weaker or unified and therefore stronger? From studying a bit of Voltaire, I became persuaded from him that multiple religions are better thing than a unified. First a truely unified is not possible, so we really are talking about larger multples versues smaller with even more multiple religions. Mankind will always create an "other" to contrast himself against, and sadly hate. Remember Voltaire lived in the 18th century where still the Protestant/Catholic wars persisted but where in England they had pretty much worked themselves out. England, more specifically London, had attracted diverse religious groups, and Voltaire in studying their interactions came to this conclusion, and famous quote:

If you have two religions in your land, the two will cut each other's throats; but if you have thirty religions, they will dwell in peace. --Voltaire

In the US today I can't even begin to number the Christian sects. It's huge. I think we get along pretty well. To the atheists, who believe in some utopian dream that everyone will drop their religions and it will all be a better world, be careful what you wish for. Homogenized, monolithic cultures are greater danger than heterogenic cultures.

I leave you with one more Voltaire quote:

All sects are different, because they come from men; morality is everywhere the same, because it comes from God.
Voltaire

[Demian]

Thanks for your contribution, Virgil. Your insights reminded me of another great quote. I don't know the source offhand, but here it is, "Heresies are really sudden explosions of faith. Dead religions no longer produce them." Of course, these heretical ideas form the sects that later become dominating and dogmatic institutions. It seems that mankind has a need to concentrate cultural power to defend ideas (however humble they may be).

[blazeofglory]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

Spiritualists really feel in union with one another. Where do we stand if we are spiritual? In fact we stand together, in unison, that we all, animates and even inanimate beings are one great and integral whole and the seeming division is an llusion.

Then coming to the same one God. Then what is God? Is it as we have read in books of mythology? If we really are believers, not fanatics or fundamentalists, divisionists, there is no notion of many Gods.

True believers do not subscribe to the idea that there exists many gods. No. Despite the fact that I was branded as a Hindu by my society, my society means primarily my parents and the rest follow then after, I do not believe in Hinduism, and I feel comfortable with all. When I go to church, as I have gone to some and like to go often I do think God is different there at all. No it is the same.

How can you say the sky is different by virtue of the fact that you reside in the west and I in the east. Is not it one and the same.

God is, if it really exists, one.

[Mr. Dr. Ralph]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

I doubt it. Give humanity another 100 years and most people will probably not be religious at all.

[Demian]

This may depend upon your definition of religion-but I believe that every person tries to discover some meaning in their lives. Therefore, every person is religious.

[NikolaiI]

Yeah Religious can be Discipline. And also there can sometimes be a difference between how we are told the world is, and how it actually is. So everyone has some religion.

Someone said "It is the fate of every mythology to begin as heresy and end as a superstition."

[Pendragon]

I doubt it. Give humanity another 100 years and most people will probably not be religious at all.I would qualify that to say that "Give humanity a 100 years and people will still be trying to figure out exactly what God is and if it is at all possible that such a being could exist after all." Humanity is born courious, they seek to find answers. Many have reached the point where God's existence is doubtful at best. I see this continuing during the next 100 years. But there are new discoverys being made all the time. And there is still much that man cannot really explain. Many scientists unashamedly admit to "best guess" on some things, based on what they do know. I find no fault in them. That is "logic" to me.

But in the search for answers, God is going to come up, and people will continue to hold to their faith. But to unite them would take goverment and church intermarrige, which I know to be unconstitutional.

God Bless

Pen

[Virgil]

I doubt it. Give humanity another 100 years and most people will probably not be religious at all.

And what do you base that on. If you're interested you can read about the decline, yes I said decline, of atheism world wide:
http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism

And if you wish there is a very good book on the subject: http://www.amazon.com/Twilight-Atheism-Disbelief-Modern-World/dp/0385500629
You can read the short summary here:

From Publishers Weekly
Oxford University's McGrath has distinguished himself not just as an historical theologian, but as a generous and witty writer who brings life to topics that would turn to dust in others' hands. Here he explores the history of atheism in Western culture, observing that atheism seems to be succumbing to the very fate—irrelevance and dissolution—that atheists once predicted would overtake traditional religion. How did atheism ("a principled and informed decision to reject belief in God") become so rare by the turn of the 21st century? McGrath leaves no stone unturned, nor any important source unconsulted, in tracing atheism's rise and fall. Beyond the usual suspects of Marx, Freud and Darwin, McGrath surveys literature (George Eliot, Algernon Swinburne), science (Jacques Monod, Richard Dawkins) and philosophy (Ludwig Feuerbach, Michel Foucault), managing to make such intellectual heavy lifting look effortless. As a lapsed atheist himself, McGrath is a sympathetic interpreter, but he also relentlessly documents what he contends are the philosophical inconsistency and moral failures of atheism, especially when it has acquired political power. Yet believers will find no warrant here for complacency, as McGrath shows how religion's "failures of imagination" and complicity with oppression often fostered the very environment in which atheism could thrive. Indeed, he warns, "Believers need to realize that, strange as it may seem, it is they who will have the greatest impact on atheism's future." Readable and memorable, this is intellectual history at its best.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

[Lote-Tree]

If you're interested you can read about the decline, yes I said decline, of atheism world wide:
http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism


Come now Virgilus! you can't use Creationwiki.org to support your point :D

It's like getting Monsanto to say GM crops is all good :D

[Thinkerr]

.....

[Thinkerr]

Atheists have a very slight problem. They are out numbered. Most people in the world believe at least there is a God(s). The evidence is against those who think that there are no unexplained incidents on Earth. I have a good friend that fell off a cliff into a river from over 500ft up, bouncing off the cliff several times on the way down. He made his way out of the water with no more than a skinned knee and a severe case of shock. If that doesn't prove somebody up there is watching down here, I don't know what does!

[weepingforloman]

Thanks for your contribution, Virgil. Your insights reminded me of another great quote. I don't know the source offhand, but here it is, "Heresies are really sudden explosions of faith. Dead religions no longer produce them." Of course, these heretical ideas form the sects that later become dominating and dogmatic institutions. It seems that mankind has a need to concentrate cultural power to defend ideas (however humble they may be).

I refer your theory of heresies to the Pelagians, the Manichees, and any of the various western "Christian" cults. None of these survived. Nor did the attempt by one Egyptian Pharaoh (I cannot remember the name- Amanhotep?) to dispense with the various members of the Egyptian pantheon and worship only the sun (and of course the pharaoh, as the sun's representative on earth). Say rather, a religion that does not think in new ways about its own dogma will die.

[blazeofglory]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

They will never unite but will feud with one another. History documents this fact.

[dzebra]

They will never unite but will feud with one another. History documents this fact.

I don't see how history can document the future. That is, of course, unless you are a prophet.

[muhsin]

Thats impossible. And that could only be possible if fire and water could unite! LOL

[Nightshade]

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m235/Night-D/22887820_12107e22f8.jpg

[blazeofglory]

We have seen that religions have more often than not become divisive forces.

[Nightshade]

but that is the past surly there exsist the possibility of learning from the past..ootherwise what is the point of the human race continuing to exsist. In fact if we keep repeating the past we might as well be eradicated now.

[jgweed]

The first step in unifying the various creeds is for each to abolish the word "heretic" from their religious vocabulary.
The second step is for them to accept that each sect follows only one possible interpretation, and that each may contain as much truth as any other.

[blazeofglory]

In unification of all religions, we will have more things to discard.

[jaywalker]

They are united now. In believing that their lot are right and the other lot wrong.

[El Viejo]

For those that are Christian--we are all members of the same body. For those that are Judeo-Christian-Muslim there is but one God. These are the dominating faiths of our day. If they believe in one God, shall they ever unite with one voice? ---"And on that day His name shall be One..." Zechariah:idea:

Ah, but Yahweh, Allah, and the Ancient of Days are not the same God, at least not when viewed from here. God made us in His image, but we've turned the telescope around, and have made God in our own image. Tiny. Mean-spirited. Jealous. Stingy. Fragmented.

Peter saw a sheet filled with unclean things lowered from heaven. He received a lesson, not only on the old dietary laws, but on how to regard his fellows. Jesus gave us the same lesson by keeping company with, and dining with, publicans and sinners. There are Christians, Muslims, and Jews, who have no tolerance for their fellows. They regard them as unclean, infidels, heathens. They mock them, despise them. And they think God approves.

The day Zechariah speaks of will come, but it won't look the way we imagine it. It'll be the way God imagines it.

[Pendragon]

Ah, but Yahweh, Allah, and the Ancient of Days are not the same God, at least not when viewed from here. God made us in His image, but we've turned the telescope around, and have made God in our own image. Tiny. Mean-spirited. Jealous. Stingy. Fragmented.

Peter saw a sheet filled with unclean things lowered from heaven. He received a lesson, not only on the old dietary laws, but on how to regard his fellows. Jesus gave us the same lesson by keeping company with, and dining with, publicans and sinners. There are Christians, Muslims, and Jews, who have no tolerance for their fellows. They regard them as unclean, infidels, heathens. They mock them, despise them. And they think God approves.

The day Zechariah speaks of will come, but it won't look the way we imagine it. It'll be the way God imagines it.
Amen, Brother! :) http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/EasterCross.gif

[YALASH]

Peace to you!

Say, O people of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you -- that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah.
But if they turn away, then say, Bear witness that we have submitted (to God) [ Quran chapter 3, verse 65 ]

Study of the books that claim to be of divine origin shows contradictions not only in the peripheral areas of their teachings, but also in the areas of basic beliefs. This could not be so had they originated from the same eternal source of light. The case in point can well be illustrated by the fact that many such books contain passages which are interpreted by their followers to lead to the belief in lesser deities sharing divinity with the one Supreme Being. In some books, God is presented as the head of a family of gods, having spouses, sons and daughters. In some other books, saintly human figures are attributed with such superhuman powers as are only befitting to be possessed by God. In other books the Unity of God is stressed so strongly and uncompromisingly as to leave no room for anyone to share God's attributes in whatsoever capacity. The Quran stands out in this respect among all the scriptures of the major world religions.

Fourth Ahmadiyya Caliph said that Quran resolve this dilemma. He said:
According to Quran, people gradually interpolate the divine teachings. Change the concept of Unity to polytheism is one example.Tracing the history of change in a Books is possible but can be very laborious job.

[ClementOfRome]

as a former minister allow me to state...

no...

never...

to quote the great philosopher 'wesley snipes'

"some M@!@#$ F@@!$#@ are always trying to ice skate uphill"

that is the church

[Hypercrit Htd]

IN HELL! there they get butt whooping from demons under command of Jesus who say "You shoulda done what I said to do, now suffffer you pieces of ****!!!!!!!!

[blazeofglory]

Believers always clash because of ideological differences