Obrien Hates Big Brother

[braniac2read]

O'brien hates bigbrother......read plz


if obrien was in the minustry of love and was cought along time ago as it says on page 238. It means he hates big brother. He told winston that if he got released from the minustry of love he would be shot, knowing he died loving big brother. I'm i right?

[braniac2read]

O'brien hates bigbrother......read plz


if obrien was in the minustry of love and was cought along time ago as it says on page 238. It means he hates big brother. He told winston that if he got released from the minustry of love he would be shot, knowing he died loving big brother. I'm i right?

can any body reply plz :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

[elisechc]

O'Brien works in the Ministry of Love. It's his job to re-educate those people who do not really believe in the Party's ideals and just follow along so as not to get punished, and also the rebels who act on their feelings of discontent. O'Brien does love Big Brother. There is a quote in which Winston says- "he is not pretending...he believes every word he says". O'Brien enjoys making Winston and others forget their unhappiness with the Party because it gives him power that he revels in. The quote that he was caught a long time ago means he has believed in the Party and been an active member for a long time. He is happy about his situation. Winston will eventually be shot for disobeying the Party but not O'Brien because he is one of them, actually a strong figure in the Inner Party, and is needed to continue their control. I'm not sure if i remember him saying anything about possibly being shot himself one day but dying loving Big Brother. I don't think that's correct.
I hope I helped you ^_^

[The Atheist]

O'brien hates bigbrother......read plz


if obrien was in the minustry of love and was cought along time ago as it says on page 238. It means he hates big brother. He told winston that if he got released from the minustry of love he would be shot, knowing he died loving big brother. I'm i right?

I think you've confused a couple of things:

O'Brien is part of Big Brother. Orwell clearly posits the suggestion that Big Brother doesn't exist as an actual person, then backs it up with O'Brien's comments; BB is simply a figurehead which will never - can never - change. BB is a propaganda device, controlled by the Inner Party. As such, he is more or less a part of O'Brien, and O'Brien is certainly a part of BB.

The comment about dying loving BB is aimed at Winston, who will do just that.

ps - much better to quote chapter numbers from books, they never change, while the number of pages is entirely contingent upon the edition.

[Jbell152]

I think you've confused a couple of things:

O'Brien is part of Big Brother. Orwell clearly posits the suggestion that Big Brother doesn't exist as an actual person, then backs it up with O'Brien's comments; BB is simply a figurehead which will never - can never - change. BB is a propaganda device, controlled by the Inner Party. As such, he is more or less a part of O'Brien, and O'Brien is certainly a part of BB.

The comment about dying loving BB is aimed at Winston, who will do just that.

ps - much better to quote chapter numbers from books, they never change, while the number of pages is entirely contingent upon the edition.

Yeah I think a main point that is brought out of this quote is that Big Brother does NOT exist and he is simply a figure head made up of the many ideals and people that support those ideals

[braniac2read]

I think you've confused a couple of things:

O'Brien is part of Big Brother. Orwell clearly posits the suggestion that Big Brother doesn't exist as an actual person, then backs it up with O'Brien's comments; BB is simply a figurehead which will never - can never - change. BB is a propaganda device, controlled by the Inner Party. As such, he is more or less a part of O'Brien, and O'Brien is certainly a part of BB.

The comment about dying loving BB is aimed at Winston, who will do just that.

ps - much better to quote chapter numbers from books, they never change, while the number of pages is entirely contingent upon the edition.

didnt o'brien say he was in the minustry of love?

[braniac2read]

O'Brien works in the Ministry of Love. It's his job to re-educate those people who do not really believe in the Party's ideals and just follow along so as not to get punished, and also the rebels who act on their feelings of discontent. O'Brien does love Big Brother. There is a quote in which Winston says- "he is not pretending...he believes every word he says". O'Brien enjoys making Winston and others forget their unhappiness with the Party because it gives him power that he revels in. The quote that he was caught a long time ago means he has believed in the Party and been an active member for a long time. He is happy about his situation. Winston will eventually be shot for disobeying the Party but not O'Brien because he is one of them, actually a strong figure in the Inner Party, and is needed to continue their control. I'm not sure if i remember him saying anything about possibly being shot himself one day but dying loving Big Brother. I don't think that's correct.
I hope I helped you ^_^

ohhh ok you did help me. i ned you to help me on one more thing.
why would the government let proles fall in love. that i dont understand. if they wanted people not to, then why would they let proles fall in love. i dont get it? and how could O'brien not possibly fall in love if it's part of the humen condition?

[The Atheist]

ohhh ok you did help me. i ned you to help me on one more thing.
why would the government let proles fall in love. that i dont understand. if they wanted people not to, then why would they let proles fall in love. i dont get it? and how could O'brien not possibly fall in love if it's part of the humen condition?

The proles lives are of no more interest to the Party than those of sheep and cattle.

O'Brien is well beyond any normal humanity, doublethink takes care of everything.

[bazarov]

Actually, it's useful to Party; more work labour for their factories.

[The Atheist]

Actually, it's useful to Party; more work labour for their factories.

Yep, just like the sheep and cattle - feed 'em occasionally and use as necessary.

[Ado]

Although BB's existence is doubtful, it is never stated in the book that he does not physically exist. As a matter of fact I recall Winston asking O'Brien about his physical reality, and O'Brien never actually spills the beans.

Anyway it is clearly stated in the book that if BB exist, he will continue existing forever in the same form, as the face of the party.

[ShakeYourSpear]

Although BB's existence is doubtful, it is never stated in the book that he does not physically exist. As a matter of fact I recall Winston asking O'Brien about his physical reality, and O'Brien never actually spills the beans.

Anyway it is clearly stated in the book that if BB exist, he will continue existing forever in the same form, as the face of the party.

Even if O'Brien were to tell Winston that BB does physically exist, it would mean nothing. O'Brien would not know the actual truth. He could believe that BB is a physical being, but he may have been told that and simply used double-think to believe that it is the truth.
He could tell Winston that BB is a physical reality, but he could just as easily tell Winston that 2+2=4, or =3 or =1000000.

The only way to know whether BB is a physical reality, is to read something that Orwell wrote or said, stating that he BB exists physically.

[David40]

O'brien hates bigbrother......read plz


if obrien was in the minustry of love and was cought along time ago as it says on page 238. It means he hates big brother. He told winston that if he got released from the minustry of love he would be shot, knowing he died loving big brother. I'm i right?

O'Brien strikes me as a very enigmatic character--a bit like Snape in the Harry Potter books, someone whose loyalty you are never quite sure of.

O'Brien could be something of a double agent--working for the Brotherhood, but also willing to use his Party connections to utterly destroy anyone showing disloyalty to the Brotherhood.

Note that O'Brien extends the invitation to visit him in his flat to Winston and to Winston alone. O'Brien's invitation was not extended to Julia. By bringing Julia, Winston has significantly compromised the Brotherhood (assuming for a moment that it does exist and O'Brien is a member). Winston has revealed O'Brien's home address and O'Brien's Brotherhood connections to someone whom O'Brien has no reason to trust. O'Brien challenges them on that--asking them whether they are willing to give up each other in order to serve the Brotherhood. Julia refuses emphatically. Winston refuses more reluctantly. If O'Brien is, indeed, a Brotherhood member, I doubt he liked the answer he received.

O'Brien's decision to ask Julia to leave a few minutes earlier than Winston seems to me further evidence that O'Brien feels a closer connection with Winston. He wants to allow Winston a few minutes to speak alone with him, perhaps to give Winston one last chance to indicate that his loyalty to the Brotherhood comes first before Julia.

I'm not saying Julia could not have been a trustworthy Brotherhood member. But I am saying that Winston should have asked O'Brien's permission first before revealing information about O'Brien to Julia if indeed O'Brien is a Brotherhood member.

Note that when Winston later asks O'Brien, in his guise as interrogator and torturer, whether the Brotherhood exists, O'Brien doesn't deny it.

I find O'Brien by far the most interesting character in the novel. He is very enigmatic in my mind. I see him as a double agent, both serving the Brotherhood AND brutally torturing dissidents. As to which side he is really on, I don't think we'll ever know.

[The Atheist]

O'Brien strikes me as a very enigmatic character--a bit like Snape in the Harry Potter books, someone whose loyalty you are never quite sure of.

I think you're off track a wee bit - O'Brien is as shown; a hard-liner Inner Party member.


O'Brien challenges them on that--asking them whether they are willing to give up each other in order to serve the Brotherhood. Julia refuses emphatically. Winston refuses more reluctantly. If O'Brien is, indeed, a Brotherhood member, I doubt he liked the answer he received.

Nope, that was all about O'Brien finding out what it would really take to break Winston utterly, hence the importance of W screaming for Julia to take his place in the rat cage. That final cry was the end of any possible resistance from Winston.


I'm not saying Julia could not have been a trustworthy Brotherhood member. But I am saying that Winston should have asked O'Brien's permission first before revealing information about O'Brien to Julia if indeed O'Brien is a Brotherhood member.

Again, not really. It was because the key person was Winston. Julia's only real crime was sexcrime, W was the rebellious one. The fact that O'Brien had no problem with W turning up with J emphasises the point that the Brotherhood was imaginary. As you note, if it existed, it could have been compromised by J's arrival, but it didn't bother O'brien at all.


Note that when Winston later asks O'Brien, in his guise as interrogator and torturer, whether the Brotherhood exists, O'Brien doesn't deny it.

It exists in a form, because it's actually the Party keeping it alive.


I find O'Brien by far the most interesting character in the novel. He is very enigmatic in my mind. I see him as a double agent, both serving the Brotherhood AND brutally torturing dissidents. As to which side he is really on, I don't think we'll ever know.

I think you're guilty of over-reading - Orwell was good at hidden messages and metaphor, but because he was essentially a reporter, his messages were never hidden to the extent that people would miss them. O'Brien is very much as he appears in the book - the ultimate Inner Party member who has complete control over his mind by doublethink.

[bazarov]

I must agree with EVERYTHING Atheist said.

[David40]

...The fact that O'Brien had no problem with W turning up with J emphasises the point that the Brotherhood was imaginary. As you note, if it existed, it could have been compromised by J's arrival...

But O'Brien does have a problem with them turning up together. He tells them they shouldn't have come together and will have to leave separately.

[The Atheist]

I must agree with EVERYTHING Atheist said.

^^^ There is a smart fella! :lol: :lol: :lol:


But O'Brien does have a problem with them turning up together. He tells them they shouldn't have come together and will have to leave separately.

Red herring - that's merely O'Brien playing up to W & J thinking the Brotherhood exists. If he hadn't done that, W may have become suspicious.

[Disordered]

This was really helpful Atheist. I was getting confused as to whether there was really a Brotherhood, O'Brien was caught, reeducated and reintroduced into the Ministry of Love as a reeducator himself...or...if the Brotherhood was Propaganda and O'Brien was there to catch rebellious Party members for reeducation. A double agent...the other way around. Yes?

Is Goldstein real and alive? Or simply a figurehead for the Propaganda as BB is for the Party?

[parapony]

I love that with doublethink you get all the full benefit of the circular argument. I love that it makes it possible for opposites to exist simultaneously and to fully believe whatever stance is convenient for the moment. O'Brien is the epitome of doublethink because whatever people seem to believe at the time, he fills that roll. I like to think that he was once a rebel converted, because often those make the best "converters" (for lack of a better word, the person to convert others in the future) because he will be able to understand them, and also personally want to educate and light the way for them. He is like the shepherd trying to find the lost sheep, he wants to bring them back. Despite the fact that to us as third-party individuals who have the benefit of seeing the regime as a whole and wanting Winston to win against it, O'Brien believes heart and soul this regime. This is what makes him so scary. And what makes the anti-climactic conversion of Winston so frightning, humans can effectively be broken down and reconstructed. A similar thing happened to Dostoevsky. It really is possible.

[The Atheist]

This was really helpful Atheist. I was getting confused as to whether there was really a Brotherhood, O'Brien was caught, reeducated and reintroduced into the Ministry of Love as a reeducator himself...or...if the Brotherhood was Propaganda and O'Brien was there to catch rebellious Party members for reeducation. A double agent...the other way around. Yes?

No.

One thing which comes through clearly is that even after "re-education" Party members won't be given positions of influence or power.


Is Goldstein real and alive? Or simply a figurehead for the Propaganda as BB is for the Party?

Figurehead - just like BB, in 100 years, the very same Goldstein will be the enemy. Change is impossible, so Goldstein must be fake.


I love that with doublethink you get all the full benefit of the circular argument.

Yes, it could be seen that way, but with the benefit of an outside view, we can assess that certain historical "facts" will remain and it negates the possibility of doublethink in the way you suggest.

[Disordered]

So the second half is correct...O'Brien has always worked for the Ministry of Love to catch and reeducate rebellious Party members. Double agent as in infiltrating the rebels, gaining their trust, but working for BB the whole time.

The script (for the play) was vague, and I haven't gotten that far in the book. Trying to do both is slow going.

[The Atheist]

So the second half is correct...O'Brien has always worked for the Ministry of Love to catch and reeducate rebellious Party members. Double agent as in infiltrating the rebels, gaining their trust, but working for BB the whole time.

It just doesn't fit the description of "double agent". That implies split loyalty, while O'Brien's is never in question, so while he's pretending to be a double agent, it is only a pretence.