What is religion? A religious life?

[dan020350]

Is it that one must be celibrate, that is to be a virgin in order to go to
heaven. It is assume that almost all religious authorites that you must be one. Which is completely absurd, because if one have sex that are damned forever. :crash:

What is an innocent mind, that is religious? All through time, we talked about religion but never inquire for ourselves what is religion.

[cuppajoe_9]

Is it that one must be celibrate, that is to be a virgin in order to go to heaven. It is assume that almost all religious authorites that you must be one. Which is completely absurd, because if one have sex that are damned forever. :crash:You might have a point if any religious group aside from the Shakers actually believed that.

[manolia]

Is it that one must be celibrate, that is to be a virgin in order to go to
heaven.


Ehhmm..i don't think that any religion on earth want the human race to be extinct..(there would be no followers left) so maybe it's not that :D

[Redzeppelin]

I don't like the term "religious" because one can be "religious" and know nothing of God. I prefer "Christ-like" or "moral."

[dan020350]

thats is the point. What is the buinsess of being celibrate?
It is to acquire a certain state of mind that is innocent. A mind that cannot be hurt, that is what innocent mind means, and not meaning the lack of something! A mind that cannot be hurt must have no image of oneself, if there is no image of oneself, then perhaps you may find out what is god.

But the fact is we build an image of God, we are actually inquiring and worshipping the idea/ image of God that we have build for ourselves.

Ex: you put a rock near a tree. Next day you put some markings on it, then the next day some flowers and it becomes a divinity. That same prinicple is applying to all churchs. What are we to worship?

[cuppajoe_9]

thats is the point. What is the buinsess of being celibrate? *sings* Ceeeeeelibrate good times, come on!

Sorry.

There are many justifications for celibacy amongst priests and monks and suchlike of certain religions. The most common is the "sex=dirty and bad and wrong" justification, or, more accurately, "no sex=high and pure and good". The idea here is that your priest or monk or what-have-you would somehow be sullied by having sexual relations, and therefore be unqualified for the position of holy person.

The second is the "married to God" justification, which is the usual one among Christian monks and nuns, from my understanding. Here, the holy person is supposed to abstain from sex because they are (in theory) devoting their lives entirely to carrying out God's work. Some monks and nuns consider themselves literally married to God and/or the Church, and therefore sex with somebody else would be adultury. (I could easily be wrong here, somebody back me up.)

The third is the "desire=no" explaination. Buddhists consider desire the source of all suffering, so most Buddhist monks and nuns abstain from sex on the grounds that they are trying to eliminate desire in themselves as far as is possible, and that includes sexual desire.

[Orionsbelt]

This notion is very ancient. It wasn't always like this way. There once was a time when life was celebrated and "earthly" impulses were (mostly) accepted for what they were. In some cases this was also taken to an extreme. Folks are folks. There are references to a thing called the great reversal. At some point in time the separation of the body from the spirit notion developed in such a way that the spirit was somehow much better. Body functions.. earthly desires if you will were looked down on because they were well.. corporal. (not spirit). This is really big in the east yoga, Brahma, etc. It is really very sad. I never looked into the details of the phenomena but I call most of what passes as "religious" (being very careful) today as the walking dead. What I mean is that some folks are so busy getting ready to be dead that they miss being alive. What's even worse is that the idea of heaven is being able to do all the things that you can't do here ... Pig out for example... So it seems there is no point to develop a sense of living.. only waiting to be alive. You know when everything will be good .. and summer will last forever and..something about virgins.. and I don't know if the women get virgins as well but .... well you know in heaven! (if you make it!)

[toni]

I don't like the term "religious" because one can be "religious" and know nothing of God. I prefer "Christ-like" or "moral."

Yeah, it's all about morality.

[dan020350]

morality is an assumption. It would be good for the priests to find out what is morality first, then make the believe.

But about controling desire.
there was a story of a monk who is 15yrs old who left home. But at the age of 18-20 sexual desire became an immense thing for him. It was burning. And one day he had an operation and he regret it, and told a teacher "what have I done to myself?"

All kinds of controling desire leads to the extreme! If you see a posin label, there is no control, you just don't do it

[bazza]

hey im a new member of this forum lol hi everybody umm ive actually written an essay on how religion provides us meaning and purpose in life and id really like for some to read it and tell me what they think of religion after they've read it


regards,

Baz

[cuppajoe_9]

Hi Baz. You'll want to post that essay on the General Writing Board (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2352).

[Amra]

There is no concept of celibacy in Islam. Human beings are encouraged to enter into marriages and to enjoy the pleasures of sex in the allowed way; between husband and wife.

The Qur'an says, "And among His signs is that He has created for you spouses from among yourselves so that you may live in tranquility with them; and He has created love and mercy between you. Verily, in that are signs for those who reflect."(30:21 )

'Uthman bin Maz'un was a close companion of the Prophet. One day his wife came to the Prophet and complained, "O the Messenger of God! 'Uthman fasts during the day and stands for prayers during the night." In other words, she meant to say that her husband was abstaining from sexual relations during the night as well as the day. The Prophet was so much angered with this that he did not even wait to put on his slippers. He came out with the slippers in his hands and went to 'Uthman's house. The Prophet found him praying. When 'Uthman finished his prayers and turned towards the Prophet, the latter said, "O 'Uthman! Allah did not send me for monasticism, rather He sent me with a simple and straight[shari'ah]. I fast, pray and also have intimate relations with my wife. So whosoever likes my tradition, then he should follow it; and marriage is one of my traditions. (Wasa'il, Vol. 14, p. 10)


Imam 'Ali narrates that some companions of the Prophet had vowed to abstain from sexual relations with their wives, from eating during the day and from sleeping during the night. Umm Salamah, the Prophet' s wife, informed him about this group. The Prophet went out to his companions and said, "Do you abstain from women whereas I go to the women?! I eat during the day and sleep during the night! Whosoever dislikes my tradition, then he is not from me."

[dan020350]

why can't I married a muslam without being a muslam?

[weepingforloman]

Is it that one must be celibrate, that is to be a virgin in order to go to
heaven. It is assume that almost all religious authorites that you must be one. Which is completely absurd, because if one have sex that are damned forever. :crash:

What is an innocent mind, that is religious? All through time, we talked about religion but never inquire for ourselves what is religion.

I can't think of anyone who ever said you had to be a virgin to be saved...
Nope, not a one. Many "religious authorities" recommend virginity, at least until marriage...

[dan020350]

Didn't expect this thread to come back.
Yes many religious authorities does recommend virginity but why?

Does that reccomendation comes from capitalism too?

[weepingforloman]

Didn't expect this thread to come back.
Yes many religious authorities does recommend virginity but why?

Does that reccomendation comes from capitalism too?

Why do you think capitalism recommends virginity? That would just cut down on their sales of condoms and herpes medication :) . Why do religious authorities recommend virginity? Because they believe fornication is immoral, and that it is helpful to abstain from sex in order to focus on God (I think the second point is debatable).

[hyperborean]

I say focus on pleasing yourself and your partner because God is dead.

[Redzeppelin]

I say focus on pleasing yourself and your partner because God is dead.

God is alive and well.

[hyperborean]

Who relayed you that message red? Did God hit you up on your cell phone?

[Redzeppelin]

Who relayed you that message red? Did God hit you up on your cell phone?

Actually, I opened up the Bible and there He was; then I looked out at nature and there He was; then I looked to my close friend and there He was; then I looked at my TV and the feature on the teen who organized a food drive for the homeless and there He was again; then I listened to Mozart and there He was again; ditto in Shakespeare, the birth of a child, the love of a mother to her baby, the courage of a firefighter running into a burning building, the kidney donor, the overworked doctor, the neighbor who checks in on his elderly shut-in neighbor, etc etc etc etc...

Note: cell-phones are rather primitive devices for God to resort to. He prefers to simply appear everywhere.

[hyperborean]

If you are seeing God in all those situations you may want to speak with a psychologist. hallucinations hint at schizophrenia.:lol:

[Redzeppelin]

If you are seeing God in all those situations you may want to speak with a psychologist. hallucinations hint at schizophrenia.:lol:

And if I am schitzophrenic, let's hope I don't dissassemble any of your arguments because that would look really bad - to be refuted by a madman, eh? :D

[hyperborean]

calling schizophrenias unintelligent or mad is a common stereotype. most are very intelligent.

[Redzeppelin]

calling schizophrenias unintelligent or mad is a common stereotype. most are very intelligent.

Phew. Thank goodness - I wouldn't want to be inconsistent in my affliction.

[one_raven]

This is what I proposed fairly recently in a debate regarding the definition of "religion":

Athest - One who asserts a position of a belief that God(s) do(es) not exist. "I believe that God(s) do(es) not exist(s)."

Personal Agnostic - One who subscribes to the concept that, without material evidence, assertion of a position of belief on the existence or non-existence of any entity is invalid. Due to the lack of material evidence for the existence of God (as far as the Personal Agnostic is aware), claiming belief in said entity is absurd. "I do not believe that God(s) exist(s)."

Universal Agnostic - One who believes that it is impossible to have material evidence of God. "We will never know whether or not God(S) exist(s) while we are in this material existence."

Theist - One who asserts a position of a belief that God(s) do(es) exist and plays at least some role in the lives of humans. "I believe that God(s) exist(s) and is part of my life."

Deist - One who believes that creator God(s) exist(s) (or existed) and served as "The Initial Cause", but sometime after that God(s) ceased being a part of human lives and existence. "God started this all, but now we are on our own."

Religion - A codified philosophical system that asserts a belief in the existence of at least one transcendental state or plane of existence beyond that which can be materially verified, and attempts to ascertain or teach the ideology that will assist the practitioner in transcending beyond this material existence to the other state(s) or plane(s).

What are your thoughts?

[weepingforloman]

This is what I proposed fairly recently in a debate regarding the definition of "religion":

Athest - One who asserts a position of a belief that God(s) do(es) not exist. "I believe that God(s) do(es) not exist(s)."

Personal Agnostic - One who subscribes to the concept that, without material evidence, assertion of a position of belief on the existence or non-existence of any entity is invalid. Due to the lack of material evidence for the existence of God (as far as the Personal Agnostic is aware), claiming belief in said entity is absurd. "I do not believe that God(s) exist(s)."

Universal Agnostic - One who believes that it is impossible to have material evidence of God. "We will never know whether or not God(S) exist(s) while we are in this material existence."

Theist - One who asserts a position of a belief that God(s) do(es) exist and plays at least some role in the lives of humans. "I believe that God(s) exist(s) and is part of my life."

Deist - One who believes that creator God(s) exist(s) (or existed) and served as "The Initial Cause", but sometime after that God(s) ceased being a part of human lives and existence. "God started this all, but now we are on our own."

Religion - A codified philosophical system that asserts a belief in the existence of at least one transcendental state or plane of existence beyond that which can be materially verified, and attempts to ascertain or teach the ideology that will assist the practitioner in transcending beyond this material existence to the other state(s) or plane(s).

What are your thoughts?

I would add "Typical Agnostic" and say: confused, unsure, and has the attitude of "screw it."

[dan020350]

Two poster interested me after my last post.

Hyper And Red

"I say focus on pleasing yourself and your partner because God is dead." And the other "God is alive and well."

To say God is alive and well means he is either a beginner or he is a master.
To say please yourself first and your partner , either he is restricted or he is (free).

Therefore, this is my reply. To believe in God is not to say I believe in god, to please yourself must first is not to negate others first.

[jade911]

im not too sure about 'personal agnostic' or 'universal agnostic' but i think this would be a better explanation of agnostic;

To believe in the existence of a god is an act of faith. To believe in the nonexistence of a god is likewise an act of faith. There is no evidence that there is a Supreme Being nor is there evidence there is not a Supreme Being. Faith is not knowledge. We can only state with assurance that we do not know.
All events in our Universe, including its creation, can be explained with or without the existence of a Supreme Being. Thus, if there is indeed a God, then that god has had no more impact than no god at all. To all appearances, any purported Supreme Being is indifferent to our Universe and to its inhabitants.
If there is a God, and that God does not appear to care, then there is no reason to concern ourselves with whether or not a Supreme Being exists, nor should we have any interest in satisfying the purported needs of that Supreme Being. However, our apathy to the question of God's existence does not necessarily mean we are apathetic about promoting agnosticism.

i like living by this, its easy.

[Redzeppelin]

Two poster interested me after my last post.

Hyper And Red

"I say focus on pleasing yourself and your partner because God is dead." And the other "God is alive and well."

To say God is alive and well means he is either a beginner or he is a master.
To say please yourself first and your partner , either he is restricted or he is (free).

Therefore, this is my reply. To believe in God is not to say I believe in god, to please yourself must first is not to negate others first.

WHAT?

[one_raven]

im not too sure about 'personal agnostic' or 'universal agnostic' but i think this would be a better explanation of agnostic;
I disagree.
Not all agnostics feel the same way as you, so this would not work well as a defintion of "Agnostic" at all.
It may work well to define your own philosophy, but not all Agnostics.
It certainly doesn't define my view.


i like living by this, its easy.
If you like it, then you should live this way - it may not be for every Agnostic, however.

[one_raven]

WHAT?

I was wondering the same thing.
I read it several times, and can make no sense of it at all.

[dan020350]

What makes sense in this world? If a person is stuck in illusion how will they believe what is not illusion?

[one_raven]

It didn't make sense as in, "I have no idea what you were trying to convey".
Not that I disagreeed.
I don't know if I agree with you or not, because I don't know what you said - you may as well have been writing in a different language.

[NickAdams]

I thought all sins were of equal value. Yet, a women's virginty seems to lead to unforgivable damnation.:goof:

I read something from C.S. Lewis sometime ago that I found interesting, I'm paraphrasing, "Christianity isn't a state of being; It is something that is maintained."

[iluvjames]

Is that true i dont want to go to hell but if you have sex before marrage can you be sent to hell? will you be sent to hell or can you still be forgiven. Because i beleive in god's eyes any sin can be forgiven

[dan020350]

It didn't make sense as in, "I have no idea what you were trying to convey". Not that I disagreeed.- you may as well have been writing in a different language.

You said it yourself, you agree, but don't know what language. Heaven's language is different from earthly language. Therefore, if you don't understand the earthly how will you understand what is heavenly?

Nick
Sins has the same aim, go dowards, depending on what type of sin, it brings you more downward. Downward is less moral, more evil, further away from reality, or original, or one's nature.

iluvjam
sex before marriage brings corruption, it attracts you to go downward.
IF one can remain innoncent, that is to know what is innoncent and repentance it is possible to escape sin.

[NickAdams]

But how is a murderer forgiven and a woman who has premarital sex not?

[dan020350]

But how is a murderer forgiven and a woman who has premarital sex not?



A murderer is forgiven, when the murderer understood what he did, and is willing to take whatever punishment necessary for his own justification. This is divine forgiveness.

A woman have sex before marriage can only be forgiven by repentance. Notice of her wrong doings or mistakes, and stop and change her ways to good moral ways, noramality, back with her own nature through inner healing from wisdom. This is how she is forgiven. Like Mary of Madelgene in Jesus story.

Therefore without wisdom without the pursuit of rightesousness no one can be forgiven. Those who believe in God believes in themselves. Those who believe in god and does not pursuit good or wisdom, or righteousness sake are no beter than those who doesn't believe in God. Therefore, there will be some who will say yes to God but they do not do his will.

[Redzeppelin]

But how is a murderer forgiven and a woman who has premarital sex not?

In God's eyes, there is no "hierarchy of sins" - they are all equal. As such, all sins are equally bad, which means they are all equally forgiven. There is no sin that is "worse" than another; the murderer, the gossip, the rapist, the prostitute, the petty thief, the child molester, the overly critical, judgmental and proud church goer - all are equally guilty in God's eyes and equally offered forgiveness - period.

[NickAdams]

Like Mary of Madelgene in Jesus story.

Are you refering to the Catholic interpretation?


In God's eyes, there is no "hierarchy of sins" - they are all equal. As such, all sins are equally bad, which means they are all equally forgiven. There is no sin that is "worse" than another; the murderer, the gossip, the rapist, the prostitute, the petty thief, the child molester, the overly critical, judgmental and proud church goer - all are equally guilty in God's eyes and equally offered forgiveness - period.

That was my point, but you did a fine job at articulating it. Thanks.:thumbs_up

[one_raven]

In God's eyes, there is no "hierarchy of sins" - they are all equal. As such, all sins are equally bad, which means they are all equally forgiven. There is no sin that is "worse" than another; the murderer, the gossip, the rapist, the prostitute, the petty thief, the child molester, the overly critical, judgmental and proud church goer - all are equally guilty in God's eyes and equally offered forgiveness - period.

Not according to Jesus...

NIV Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

NIV Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "

Interesting.

I'm curious what information from God you are privy too.

[dan020350]

Are you refering to the Catholic interpretation?


Are you translating it into your interpretation, or what others have said?

[NickAdams]

Are you translating it into your interpretation, or what others have said?

Maybe I'm confused. Which story are you talking about?

[Redzeppelin]

That was my point, but you did a fine job at articulating it. Thanks.:thumbs_up

You're welcome. Thank you.


Not according to Jesus...

NIV Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

NIV Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. 31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "

Interesting.

I'm curious what information from God you are privy too.

Good points; one is a semantic point, the other an omission I figured someone would point out.

1) Commandments and sins are not identical things. It is possible to sin without breaking a specific listed commandment. Christ's distillation of the commandments is actually a boiling down of all of them into their two categories; the 10 commandments can be categorized under those two categories (as well as all sins - they are either against God, or humanity, or both).

2) You're correct: the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is worse - but all other sins are still equal. The sin against the Holy Spirit is not something you do, but a refusal to acknowledge the Holy Spirit's conviction. Your point is valid, but most people who don't read the Bible alot are unaware of this. But my original post stands: all other sins are equal in the eyes of God.

I'm "privy" to no special knowledge except what I've read in the Bible, learned from godly men teaching me about the Bible, and whatever clarity God has given me regarding the scriptures (because the New Testament says that God grants clarity to those who ask).

[dan020350]

Maybe I'm confused. Which story are you talking about?

There is no story to tell. The only story is you.

[weepingforloman]

Is that true i dont want to go to hell but if you have sex before marrage can you be sent to hell? will you be sent to hell or can you still be forgiven. Because i beleive in god's eyes any sin can be forgiven

This is the kind of garbled message that comes down when secular filters get a hold of Christian thought. Yes: fornication (sex before marriage) is considered a sin. No, it does not mean you will go to Hell. No sin, save blasphemy alone (and that is a nearly impossible sin to commit) can rule out a person's salvation. This is the entire process that got corrupted:
1. Fornication is a sin
2. Sin means a person in and of himself deserves Hell
3. (The most critical one) Christ forgives sins, so no one sin, save blasphemy, can damn you outright.


But how is a murderer forgiven and a woman who has premarital sex not?

Who said this? There is no scriptural evidence for this.

[hyperborean]

You do this you are a sinner, you do that you have committed sin but you are exempt from hell. Someone should come up with a textbook called "The Man-Made Rules and Regulations in Christianity".

[NickAdams]

There is no story to tell. The only story is you.

I thought that's what you were suggesting. Not my interpretation of the scriptures.


This is the kind of garbled message that comes down when secular filters get a hold of Christian thought. Yes: fornication (sex before marriage) is considered a sin. No, it does not mean you will go to Hell. No sin, save blasphemy alone (and that is a nearly impossible sin to commit) can rule out a person's salvation. This is the entire process that got corrupted:
1. Fornication is a sin
2. Sin means a person in and of himself deserves Hell
3. (The most critical one) Christ forgives sins, so no one sin, save blasphemy, can damn you outright.



Who said this? There is no scriptural evidence for this.

I agree with you. There's isn't any scriptural evidence for it, but it is a belief held by those who have the Bible read to them, rahter than reading it themselves. The Bible is too often the tool for manipulation and it's sad, because there is a lot of great stuff in there ... and I'm an atheist!

[weepingforloman]

I thought that's what you were suggesting. Not my interpretation of the scriptures.



I agree with you. There's isn't any scriptural evidence for it, but it is a belief held by those who have the Bible read to them, rahter than reading it themselves. The Bible is too often the tool for manipulation and it's sad, because there is a lot of great stuff in there ... and I'm an atheist!

I agree that this is a problem--I just don't know how some people justify certain things like bombing abortion clinics and attacking homosexuals...
If we can't agree on God (not that it's actually impossible for us to), we can at least agree on morals.


You do this you are a sinner, you do that you have committed sin but you are exempt from hell. Someone should come up with a textbook called "The Man-Made Rules and Regulations in Christianity".

I never said you are "exempt" from Hell. We are all sinners. All sinners deserve Hell. Some sinners will be saved by Christ's blood.

If the rules are man-made, why are they so harsh and difficult? If we were really all in this little conspiratorial made up plot, why wouldn't we change the rules that are unpleasant to keep?

[NikolaiI]

According to Dr. Scott Peck, religion doesn't necessarily mean Christian, Hindu, Jew, etc. Religion is a person's beliefs, their convictions, and disciplines, everyone has religion.

About sex before marriage, why is it marriage by the state? At least, that is our custom. To be married by a priest. Is sex after marriage still a sin if you got married by a judge?

It seems arbitrary to me. What has God got to with the State? Isn't he above it? What if you got married in the woods before you had sex, just you two and God, said your vows, and everything. Would that count? Or not, because of no minister?

Is this all from God - from Christ - or just arbitrary human custom?

A friend of mine was talking with me about it and though he's had premarital sex, he wishes now he had waited, his reason being it would be something amazingly special to give to his wife, and he wishes he'd saved himself for her. But then, also every girl he was with, he thought he would be with his whole life.

I don't know everything about it, but I know Buddhists have different standards for those in monastic training and for lay people. For lay people, they have to follow basic precepts as well as visiting a monastery at least once a year. It's more strict for monastics.

The reason people commit those hateful crimes - well, who can say? perhaps it's spite? - but is it not mainly ignorance? A lack of growth, one might say, educational and moral refinement? Jesus said, what you do to the least of men you do to me, an illustration of empathy. Bombinb a clinic would qualify you as insane (psycopathic, no conscience, no empathy), even if it is from spite, correct?

[weepingforloman]

According to Dr. Scott Peck, religion doesn't necessarily mean Christian, Hindu, Jew, etc. Religion is a person's beliefs, their convictions, and disciplines, everyone has religion.

About sex before marriage, why is it marriage by the state? At least, that is our custom. To be married by a priest. Is sex after marriage still a sin if you got married by a judge?

It seems arbitrary to me. What has God got to with the State? Isn't he above it? What if you got married in the woods before you had sex, just you two and God, said your vows, and everything. Would that count? Or not, because of no minister?

Is this all from God - from Christ - or just arbitrary human custom?

A friend of mine was talking with me about it and though he's had premarital sex, he wishes now he had waited, his reason being it would be something amazingly special to give to his wife, and he wishes he'd saved himself for her. But then, also every girl he was with, he thought he would be with his whole life.

I don't know everything about it, but I know Buddhists have different standards for those in monastic training and for lay people. For lay people, they have to follow basic precepts as well as visiting a monastery at least once a year. It's more strict for monastics.

The reason people commit those hateful crimes - well, who can say? perhaps it's spite? - but is it not mainly ignorance? A lack of growth, one might say, educational and moral refinement? Jesus said, what you do to the least of men you do to me, an illustration of empathy. Bombinb a clinic would qualify you as insane (psycopathic, no conscience, no empathy), even if it is from spite, correct?

I am not really qualified to answer these questions about marriage (not clergy, not even married), but, to be on the safe side, I'd say it was best to get married before a minister. God has very much to do with states, though a theocracy is not necessarily good (though a theocracy in its Platonic form, without hatred of other faiths or violence toward them, wouldn't be bad): rulers are meant to fulfill the role of God on earth (not claim the title of God, but to ensure justice).

[hyperborean]

I never said you are "exempt" from Hell. We are all sinners. All sinners deserve Hell. Some sinners will be saved by Christ's blood.

If the rules are man-made, why are they so harsh and difficult? If we were really all in this little conspiratorial made up plot, why wouldn't we change the rules that are unpleasant to keep?

You are only a sinner if you think you are a sinner. I don't know about you but I don't deserve an imaginary place made up by Christians to convert people back in the day.

[weepingforloman]

So if I think I'm made of ice, would I melt if I stayed out in the sun?

[Zephon]

Religion could be defined as "man reaching out to God." On the other hand, Christianity is "God reaching out to man."

[JGL57]

Religion could be defined as "man reaching out to God." On the other hand, Christianity is "God reaching out to man."

Ah, the old "christianity is not a religion, it is the TRUTH." ploy.

Hindus, Moslems, Bahais, etc. really aren't impressed by that one. They think it rather silly. I don't argue with them on that.

[weepingforloman]

Mmmkay... Your point?

[JGL57]

So if I think I'm made of ice, would I melt if I stayed out in the sun?

No, but you might get sun stroke and hallucinate, e.g., a conversation with an imaginary person.

[weepingforloman]

Clever. Am I in the Sahara?

[JGL57]

Clever. Am I in the Sahara?

Dude, at this point I have no idea where you are. You could be broadcasting from another galaxy.

BTW, earth is friendly. We mean you no harm.

[weepingforloman]

Maybe this little thing should stop now...