Prayer for Virginia Tech

[Zirkle2007]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

After this horrible day for the campus of Virginia Tech, keep everyone involved in this horrible event in your prayers. I'm starting this thread so that we can show our support for those involved and so that people can stay updated. The link above is the direct link for the CNN page about the shootings. This has already been called the worst mass shooting in the history of the United States.

God be with them all in this horrible time.

[Niamh]

My god that is terrible! The poor families.

[andave_ya]

Yes, it was in the news on the 'net. how horribly tragic!

[Virgil]

I agree. Poor kids. May they rest in peace. I'm sure the poor parents will never find any solace.

[avidreader7]

News regarding the college shooting in the US is distressing to say the least. I needed to sign on and think about the Trafalmadorians. Thank goodness books and intelligent banter exists or American Crime would leave anyone with a fraction of normality going completely bats.

Long Live KV.

[RobinHood3000]

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. The fact that no one I know was hurt brings but fleeting relief.

[dramasnot6]

I just found out what happened..my god, I know lots of people at Virginia Tech. I used to live right in that area, many of my friends siblings go there. Geez, I just don't know what to think....this is so,so horrible. A larger death toll than columbine.
My thoughts and grievances go out to all their families.

[downing]

I am so sorry for everything that happened. I also know a teacher at Virginia Tech. I hope nothing happened to her. May they all rest in peace. God, it's unutterable! What are we going to do?

[Pendragon]

I posted this on the poetry forum, but it really belongs here. Tech is only an hour and a half away. Many of the students from my area were there, I don't yet know if any were among the ones killed or wounded. I have been to football games on the campus. My kids have visited the campus, all three of them, and my boy is scheduled for a three-day stay there this summer, as both did last summer. It makes one think. I used to often preach in Blacksburg, not far from one of the entrances to VA Tech on a semi-regular basis. The campus is beautiful, but huge. What a tragedy! We mourn...

Tribute

at night
we wondered why—
the guns flashed—students died
what went wrong at Virginia Tech
yesterday?

yesterday
some madman prowled
fired his guns into crowds
the body-count went on, up and up
it seemed

it seemed
that hell ruled for
just a little while, campus
a battleground—death all around—
and fear

and fear
dark angel gloom
stalked the campus specter-like
then the shooter took his own life—
what waste

what waste
young people died
our legacy in life
wiped out—senseless homicide—
we mourn…

Pendragon
© 4/17/07

We will always remember: Virginia Tech Monday, April 16, 2007

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/HokieBird-Football.jpg

[Countess]

I've been thinking about this for some time. A crime of passion is to some extent understandable (although that does not justify it), but why would the Va Tech killer - an English major - walk all the way across campus to gun down a bunch of engineering students?

Maybe I see meaning where there is only chaos, but I have always thought there is a subliminal rivalry between the arts and sciences, between those with heightened emotions and those with heightened intellect, between those who will probably be jobless unless they continue their education and those who are almost guarenteed to start working, making upwards of $50,000 as soon as they walk out of the school door.

Again, I might be seeing something that is only an illusion in my mind, but it may end up being one of the only explanations for his trip across campus to murder a bunch of people he most likely didn't know (at a college that size, it's normal.)

He had all these students between himself and the other side of campus, but he chose to spend time walking past them - letting them live - so he could murder dozens of engineers. There's intent there, not just madness.

[kilted exile]

I think the analysis you have given is flawed, especially considering that a number of the students that were killed were in German class. Maybe it's Germans that he hates? or then again we could attempt to find out the reasons for things and not speculate on nonsense.

[scotpgot]

I agree with kilted. I think you're logic is flawed.

I went to a similarly big campus, and although a building might be called "the engineering building" that does not mean that all it does is teach engineering students. It would hold as well various classes for prerequisites in Math and so forth.

[SleepyWitch]

i heard it on the news this morning.
it's really shocking!

[Virgil]

Countess, I think you are using normal reasoning to try to decipher someone who's reasoning process was at a minimum out of norm. It can't be done.

[littlewing53]

shall we just come together and agree to pray for those who are affected by the circumstances of yesterday...from the parents who are grieving their loss, the students who survived, students who attend the school, the president of the school...and i cannot possibly imagine the parents of the boy who chose to shoot..we all lost yesterday...but there is today....

[Schokokeks]

I heard it on the radio, too. It really makes me speechless -
Awful feeling that was in my lecture hall this morning...

[kilted exile]

I have been quite annoyed at the media coverage on a number of chanells but CNN's Larry King Live (possibly the worst interviewer on TV) in particular, where the guest (Dr Phil) seemed to be more interested in propogating fear, than trying to have a rational discussion about how as a society you stop these things from happening (as evidenced by his statement that "it is pointless trying to understand these people").

[The Bookinator]

It's so sad that we as humans could do this to another, yet death and hate occur so often. It's rather discouraging at times... and so tragic.

[Shalot]

Something about the "heightened intellect" of the Engineering students versus the English students and their heightened emotions sort of rubbed me the wrong way, since I was an English major. It almost makes it sound like English majors are stupid or that stupid people choose English as their major, or that emotional people are too stupid to deal with their own emotions and of course no one with a heightened intellect would bother with it... (sorry, it seemed like that the first time I read it). But yes, there is a rivalry there, but can't intellectuals focus on subjects like art and literature if that's what they're passionate about? Must they all study math engineering and science? All those topics are important to mankind and all are valid and the people who choose to study a certain subject such as literature shouldn't be dismissed as intellectually average or less....

Anyway, back to the Virginia Tech:

From what I've read about it, the gunman was a loner and very troubled.

[Pendragon]

No, you don't know what is going on in a person's mind, but their intellect has little to do with it. You want facts, go back and read about the Leopold and Loeb case in the early 1900's.

The only problem was this: One shooter: first victim killed at approximately 7:15 am or there abouts. Then later he goes on his rampage. You have to ask why the campus wasn't locked down until they KNEW they had the shooter and the weapons. People weren't even informed of the first shooting until after 9:00. Too long, and no suspect even detained, so he could have been anywhere, and sadly, he was and still well armed. Questions will be asked. I hope and pray we can find the answers... Pray...

[Virgil]

Something about the "heightened intellect" of the Engineering students versus the English students and their heightened emotions sort of rubbed me the wrong way, since I was an English major. It almost makes it sound like English majors are stupid or that stupid people choose English as their major, or that emotional people are too stupid to deal with their own emotions and of course no one with a heightened intellect would bother with it... (sorry, it seemed like that the first time I read it). But yes, there is a rivalry there, but can't intellectuals focus on subjects like art and literature if that's what they're passionate about? Must they all study math engineering and science? All those topics are important to mankind and all are valid and the people who choose to study a certain subject such as literature shouldn't be dismissed as intellectually average or less....

Anyway, back to the Virginia Tech:

From what I've read about it, the gunman was a loner and very troubled.

Where did you hear about engineering versus english students? What about me, I have degrees in both? Am I bifurcated? :lol: I never saw a rivarly, but I did sense prejudices on both sides.

In my experiences I came across very smart people in both. The only difference is that in engineering when you take a test, the answer is either right or wrong. In English classes, as long as you can put an argument together you usually got at least a B grade.

[RobinHood3000]

No, you don't know what is going on in a person's mind, but their intellect has little to do with it. You want facts, go back and read about the Leopold and Loeb case in the early 1900's.

The only problem was this: One shooter: first victim killed at approximately 7:15 am or there abouts. Then later he goes on his rampage. You have to ask why the campus wasn't locked down until they KNEW they had the shooter and the weapons. People weren't even informed of the first shooting until after 9:00. Too long, and no suspect even detained, so he could have been anywhere, and sadly, he was and still well armed. Questions will be asked. I hope and pray we can find the answers... Pray...I see no problem, only tragedy. Shootings happen with alarming frequency, and there was no evidence to suggest that the first incident was anything more than a domestic argument gone bad. Only in hindsight does a college administration consider locking down several thousand students for what began as an isolated shooting, with no suspect on the scene to arrest (and as far as I know, a suspect WAS detained). I don't think people appreciate the difficulty involved in tracking down a generically-dressed adult male in the midst of a 25,000-strong student body, a 26,000 acre campus, wind, and snow.

Sorry...I'm just a little huffy. More blame than consolation seems to be going around after disasters nowadays.

[Virgil]

I see no problem, only tragedy. Shootings happen with alarming frequency, and there was no evidence to suggest that the first incident was anything more than a domestic argument gone bad. Only in hindsight does a college administration consider locking down several thousand students for what began as an isolated shooting, with no suspect on the scene to arrest (and as far as I know, a suspect WAS detained). I don't think people appreciate the difficulty involved in tracking down a generically-dressed adult male in the midst of a 25,000-strong student body, a 26,000 acre campus, wind, and snow.

Sorry...I'm just a little huffy. More blame than consolation seems to be going around after disasters nowadays.

You make good points Robin. Nonetheless somebody got it wrong and we have to analyze the situation to get it right in the future. I'm not saying anyone should be fired. It was an out of the ordinary situation and given the stress of the situation it was not surprising that incorrect decisions were made. But whoever made the decisions, it was not thier finest hour.

[Asa Adams]

Peace and Love to all affected.

[Shalot]

Where did you hear about engineering versus english students? What about me, I have degrees in both? Am I bifurcated? :lol: I never saw a rivarly, but I did sense prejudices on both sides.

In my experiences I came across very smart people in both. The only difference is that in engineering when you take a test, the answer is either right or wrong. In English classes, as long as you can put an argument together you usually got at least a B grade.


I don't know where I heard that exactly. One of the accountants that I work for told me that her husband (who is an engineer) was very unhappy with the English major technical writer who worked with him. Maybe I put two and two together and came to the wrong conclusion (you'll have that with those English majors :D ). It's seems like it's one of those known facts. Of course, I was sold on the English major, because of course engineers can't express themselves in writing and they need an English major to edit their reports etc. So, I guess with your background, you are very marketable. Way to go Virgil!

(Personally, I don't think you can write about something unless you know about, and that applies to fiction and technical reports -- do you agree? I mean, you can write about it, but it may not ring true)

[Bakiryu]

May their souls find peace and enlightment. Blessed be.

________________________________________________

I cannot believe a human being would do this to others! What's wrong with all these people. This never happened in my country, i blame the american society and television.

[RobinHood3000]

Thank you, Virgil, and agreed. In my eyes, the ball was most blatantly dropped by those who referred him to counseling but never followed through, and those who helped him obtain the gun. To be fair, the shop where he got the 9 mm did not technically do anything wrong, but it says something about the gun control system. The only thing a waiting period means is that killers have to plan ahead.

[Virgil]

Thank you, Virgil, and agreed. In my eyes, the ball was most blatantly dropped by those who referred him to counseling but never followed through, and those who helped him obtain the gun. To be fair, the shop where he got the 9 mm did not technically do anything wrong, but it says something about the gun control system. The only thing a waiting period means is that killers have to plan ahead.

Agree. I don't think any gun control laws would have made a difference either. The person had no criminal record and while there could have been waiting periods he would have gotten a gun eventually.

[Virgil]

I don't know where I heard that exactly. One of the accountants that I work for told me that her husband (who is an engineer) was very unhappy with the English major technical writer who worked with him. Maybe I put two and two together and came to the wrong conclusion (you'll have that with those English majors :D ). It's seems like it's one of those known facts. Of course, I was sold on the English major, because of course engineers can't express themselves in writing and they need an English major to edit their reports etc. So, I guess with your background, you are very marketable. Way to go Virgil!

Thank you.:blush: But I don't know if it ever got me anything. It does make me think a little differently than most engineers. I don't know if that's just me or my English lit background. College I went to liberal arts and engineering majors did not really relate to each other well. I sort of crossed boundaries.


(Personally, I don't think you can write about something unless you know about, and that applies to fiction and technical reports -- do you agree? I mean, you can write about it, but it may not ring true)
Probably true for us mere mortals, but someone like Shakespeare could not have experienced everything (for instance the life of a king) he wrote and yet I don't recall anything that doesn't come across well. A good writer i think with practice can pass off many things he has not experienced, but experience really does give it a more credible touch.

[Pendragon]

I see no problem, only tragedy. Shootings happen with alarming frequency, and there was no evidence to suggest that the first incident was anything more than a domestic argument gone bad. Only in hindsight does a college administration consider locking down several thousand students for what began as an isolated shooting, with no suspect on the scene to arrest (and as far as I know, a suspect WAS detained). I don't think people appreciate the difficulty involved in tracking down a generically-dressed adult male in the midst of a 25,000-strong student body, a 26,000 acre campus, wind, and snow.

Sorry...I'm just a little huffy. More blame than consolation seems to be going around after disasters nowadays.
Well, Robin, amigo, Tech is very close to me, and I have followed it's team sports for decades. The campus is indeed huge (we parked on a lot on campus and still walked over a mile to the stadium!), there are over 100 buildings, an airport, etc. Still, no guns on the "person of intrest" as they called him. I couldn't say what would work. An air-raid siren pops to mind having been born on the largest military base on the East Coast, Fort Bragg, NC. We are just second-guessing. I agree more condolences right now, asign blame later.

[Countess]

I guess I was thinking in terms of symbols.

The engineering building might symbolize something, much like the twin towers were a symbol for the Muslims (they weren't out to get a specific person.)

Many people who commit mass murders are getting back at an idea, rather than a specific person. This is why they mass kill - they are striking out in anger against a former place of employment, Western Civilization, etc.

Not saying it did or did not represent a symbol; only that it might have in his mind - perhaps it represented "the rich kids" he so despised.

[Adolescent09]

May the ones whose souls have ascended to heaven (and perhaps the other place) be at peace in an oasis far from evil. I agree with Robinhood3000 for most of his strong points and I respect Countess for her (and I hope this isn't offensive) humorous analytical reasonings underlying the intent of this irrational killer. But even Countess makes good points...

Hell, you all make good points... Once again my heart goes out to those whose hearts have stopped and whose souls are journeying to the gates of either realm.

[RobinHood3000]

Pendragon, I do apologize - I did not mean to sound as if I was striking against you. Here's hoping that the trend of shootings stops soon.

[amuse]

I wanted to send my thoughts out to the victims, their families and their friends as well. I know the living will be scarred for life, but I hope they can see light in the world again. And to those who've passed on, you are loved, and I hope you're enjoying the brightest of lights ever.

*Just read some prior postings - for all of you who are connected to the people and goings-on at Virginia tech, I hope your loved ones are okay.

[TurkeyBLT]

So tragic...

[cardplay]

Now they’re investigating the books he read...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

I’m terribly disturbed by this. I read Lovecraft too (but not chainsaw horror). I’ve read like 20 Stephen Kings. I would really hate to have the government start profiling people who read horror. And you know nowadays they take library records without your knowledge. (I borrow from libraries)

Anyone else feel strongly about this?

[Shalot]

Now they’re investigating the books he read...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070422/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

I’m terribly disturbed by this. I read Lovecraft too (but not chainsaw horror). I’ve read like 20 Stephen Kings. I would really hate to have the government start profiling people who read horror. And you know nowadays they take library records without your knowledge. (I borrow from libraries)

Anyone else feel strongly about this?

No, he killed a lot of people and they're trying to find out what they can. I am sorry that this happened and I wish that he had received the help he needed. My thoughts and prayers are with his parents. And of course, my thoughts and prayers are with the families of those he killed.

[Nightshade]

No And you know nowadays they take library records without your knowledge. (I borrow from libraries)


I just want to point out that its hardly against your knowledge....how else do they fine you?? And also its how the stock specialists would choose to send what book to what library what to buy, everything that goes out of a library is recorded what frequency it goes out, the card type ( if you have card levels like we do things like adult junior1-10,junior11-15 adult 16-60, SC60+
housebound(books on wheels), lesiure)all sorts of things like that mostly the information is of course just sats with no name attached, its very hard to actually get a name attached to a book. For examle our system ( not that such a lowly being as I could have the access to this section but I can figure it outt from the rest of the way it works. Is very very very hard to get that kind of record because it doesnt refer to books or people by names in its records. ANd whenever someone loses a card or a books number is changed because the barcode has worn down or fallen off it thinks its a new record.)
Its not somthing people would do just for the heck of it to get that information an a massive scale would be both exspensive and time consuming.
Of course if your worried about someone keeping track of what you take out its the Library staff you have to watch out for, we remember alot more than people think...for example I know what kind of book most of our reguluars (and quite a few of our not so regulars) read and it makes me better at my job because I can save books for them ( somthing people always like because it adds a touch of 'personal' service) recfomend books to them, etc etc poass messages from one member to another.

[Pendragon]

You must understand that they are trying very hard to bring closure to an incident that has caused heartache and havoc with worldwide consequences. They have to try to understand the motivation of the unfortunate young man who snapped and went on a killing spree. They will look at what he read, what he wrote, the movies he watched, the TV shows he was fond of, the video games, the music, whom he idolized, the whole picture. Because you happen to like Lovecraft, I have all his works myself, doesn't make you the next one ready to snap. Many factors play a role into this. We may never know what really caused it. But they have to try, for the sake of those who died, the wounded, and for the young man's family. Also to try to see patterns that may stop it from happening again. Tragedy on every turn is all I can see.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Blues.gif

[dramasnot6]

I do not think the issue so much anymore is that he was unstable but that as an unstable person he was allowed to buy guns, especially those type. What we should be really thinking to prevent another horrible tragedy such as this how we can regulate gun purchase and restrict gun laws more so that guns are not so accesabile to people like this.

[Shalot]

I do not think the issue so much anymore is that he was unstable but that as an unstable person he was allowed to buy guns, especially those type. What we should be really thinking to prevent another horrible tragedy such as this how we can regulate gun purchase and restrict gun laws more so that guns are not so accesabile to people like this.



When I heard this on the news this morning, the first thing that came to my mind was this, "If I want a gun, I will figure out how to get one despite their restrictions." They can regulate gun purchases and require that gun retailers require potential customers to go through a certain screening process, but there will always be the black market, and any psycho who is so inclined could easily obtain a gun in this fashion.

All of us get pissed off at one point or another, but most of us, thank God, can reflect on our violent/twisted thoughts and come to the conclusion that killing someone is wrong, or at least not the solution . I just hate the idea of restrictions, especially as a response to this situation. That kid was screwed up and if guns were harder to buy, he would have built a bomb or something. I hate to say that and I feel so sorry for his parents and what they must be going through, but the fact remains that he was very troubled and would have gone through with his massacre with or without a gun.

[Countess]

I have a bumper sticker that says "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Or, as a counselor told me, the law only works for law-abiding citizens.

[Virgil]

I have a bumper sticker that says "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Or, as a counselor told me, the law only works for law-abiding citizens.

I'm in agreement with you Countess. What is needed is better coordination regarding identification of mental health people.

[Pendragon]

I'm in agreement with you Countess. What is needed is better coordination regarding identification of mental health people.And some of us "Mental Health People" are tired of being stereotyped as the next one who is going to "go Postal", or "Fruity Fred", and I am sick to my gut of having to live like a hermit because people treat me like I have Bubonic Plague! I'm Bi-Polar, and it is under control as long as I take my medications. I take them religiously, because I don't want to be the person I could have become. I got help, and I continue with it. Yes, it is hard. I lost more than any of you will ever know. But I didn't come home when I crashed and had no knowledge of what I was doing, load my guns, and go blow people away. It has not been my nature. I used to fist-fight, yes, but no weapons of ANY sort. Don't lump us all together.

Blame the Judge the young man had to come before when placed in a mental hospital under a TDO (Temporary Detention Order). I've been there myself. The Judge in my case agreed that I needed to stay. In his case the Judge let him walk. No inpatient care, no record. Simple as that. Won't show on a background check. I am no danger to anyone now, but I could not purchase a new handgun. Inpatient care, you see, still on record from 1995. But people never let you forget the stigma. Never. Pain is a heavy load to bear.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't have tossed that out. But I do tire of hearing the words "Mental Case", "Bi-Polar", "Nutty-as-a-fruitcake", etc.http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Blues.gif

[Virgil]

Pen, I'm only talking about purchasing of guns. I wasn't referring to anything else. I'm sorry if I suggested anything different. I didn't intend to. Of course I think you ought to be able to have the same freedoms as any other person.

[Pendragon]

I know that in my heart, Virgil, we've been like brothers for too long now to quarrel. The problem is, every time one of these things happen, my isolation from the world becomes worse. I haven't had a serious episode in nine years. My last bad case that hospitalized me was caused by an alergic reaction to a medication that sent me into seizures. I would have been out almost overnight, except that was the weekend, and no patients are relased off that floor on week-ends.

Hey, I was kicked out of my church, my family (sister, brother, mom) disowned me, lost any chance of ever working again, and I have an 140+ IQ--so, yeah, I don't like the stereotype, and I don't like feeling like an outcast. Sorry if my pain bothered you, I'll try to get on as best I can. I always have.

Buono fortuna , fratello.

Pen

[RobinHood3000]

Pendragon, I'm so sorry you've gone through so much, brother. The system is frustratingly imperfect.

If I've learned anything from computer programming, it is that the worst problems are rarely solved by making the solution more complex.