Did God created himself?

[dan020350]

What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

[cuppajoe_9]

It's quite a neat trick, if he did.


One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"God gave man free will, which carries with it the potential for sin, &c, &c, &c.

[aeroport]

And possibly that God is imperfect...and rather conceited? The entire statement obviously also suggests that man may or may not be right about it - he "assumes". You've phrased it a bit ironically, too, dan020350: "...one thing that man assumes is that God is a man..."

[dan020350]

Yeah. People told me I am ironic. So they banned me.:crash:

( I wonder when will i get ban for speaking the truth? In this site. )

Both are you I believe is right, man has free will, but the question God gives man free will can be challenge. Because that is just a bias assumption.

[Adolescent09]

God is often wrongly personified in terms of how he "conceives" things, how he "creates", how he is "there when needed", and how through his guidance man can establish the potential to do virtually anything... The only problem with this thought is that people verily overlook the fact that God is more like an idea than a man.. It is the idea of Providence and thought of his existence which goads theistic people to believe. Yes, the Bible was written by our Lord's desciples (controversially), but nothing in the sacred tome can be confirmed as fact. Thus if we wish to rationally impose whether God "created" himself or out of man's astonishing propensity to want answers to "the enigma", he "created" Him, we must think of how God is concieved on a "secular stage". Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Catholicism... and all other religions (including outlandish, dogmatic cow-believers and devout pagan worshippers) all wish to seek what?... What is it?... All we ever want to do is satiate our hunger for truth.... It's all we look for, the truth.. Why are we here?, Who brought us here?, What is this great circular land (which we only truly discovered around 400 years ago) on which we reside? and what forms of life exist on the several trillion other gallexies which transcend the paths of our milkyway? These simple-sentenced questions require answers of very profound meaning....

I hope I made sense... and thank you for reading my reply if you did. Also, thank-you for not reading my reply if you didn't read it, and thank you for completely overlooking my reply and calling me an idiot. I thank you all because I love thanking people... oh.. and I love this forum. Thank-you, once more.

[Redzeppelin]

God is often wrongly personified in terms of how he "conceives" things, how he "creates", how he is "there when needed", and how through his guidance man can establish the potential to do virtually anything... The only problem with this thought is that people verily overlook the fact that God is more like an idea than a man..

You mean He only exists in the mind? We "create" God?


It is the idea of Providence and thought of his existence which goads theistic people to believe.

Could you clarify this statement?


Yes, the Bible was written by our Lord's desciples (controversially), but nothing in the sacred tome can be confirmed as fact.

"Nothing"? Historical documents (non-religious sources)from the first century confirm the existence of Jesus Christ and that he had disciples/followers. The ancient city of Ninevah (from the book of Johah) has been discovered. Archeologists discovered what is known as the "Pilate Stone" - which confirms the identity of Pilate as governor of Judea during the time of Christ's life.


Thus if we wish to rationally impose whether God "created" himself or out of man's astonishing propensity to want answers to "the enigma", he "created" Him, we must think of how God is concieved on a "secular stage".

What does this statement mean?


Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Catholicism... and all other religions (including outlandish, dogmatic cow-believers and devout pagan worshippers) all wish to seek what?... What is it?... All we ever want to do is satiate our hunger for truth.... It's all we look for, the truth.. Why are we here?, Who brought us here?, What is this great circular land (which we only truly discovered around 400 years ago) on which we reside? and what forms of life exist on the several trillion other gallexies which transcend the paths of our milkyway? These simple-sentenced questions require answers of very profound meaning....

I suppose so.


I hope I made sense... and thank you for reading my reply if you did. Also, thank-you for not reading my reply if you didn't read it, and thank you for completely overlooking my reply and calling me an idiot. I thank you all because I love thanking people... oh.. and I love this forum. Thank-you, once more.

Certainly - thanks for posting.

[hyperborean]

"God has no beginning nor end" according to Christians.

[dan020350]

according to the christians, The meaning of the cross means cross out the "I", the me. But the meaning or substance has been lost because of the prejudice authorities, the one called the pope.

[Madhuri]

"God has no beginning nor end" according to Christians.

This is according to Hinduism also. God is beyond time and space, has eternal existence.

[Redzeppelin]

"God has no beginning nor end" according to Christians.


You are correct, my friend.

[Adolescent09]

I don't think my posts can be taken too seriously on this matter since I haven't even read the complete king james version of the bible.:(. Apparently you have Red, and you know a lot more pertaining to this issue than I do, but I never really was a religious "buff".. All I meant, Red, was that the "visage" (if you could call it that) of God is different according to different religions. Some see Him as a holy spirit, some see Him as an animal, some see Him as a pagan deity.... but all they are searching for, is a path to the truth.

So, yes, as ludicrous as it appears, I believe we "imagine" God. There might be.. or is proof of his existence through archaic texts and artifacts but since when has anyone actually seen God? I think you can only rely on ancient evidence for so long until you begin to truly question, who He is and where He might be... Some claim to witness him in dreams, other claim they feel his presence... but the truth is.. no one has physically viewed God since the bible was written thousands of years ago... and even that is questionable.

Again, I might be talking nonsense, in the eyes of someone who appears to know so much on this matter as you do, but I'm trying to make a point. Ok-you can make me look stupid now :).

[Hyacinth42]

one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man

I think this should be revised to "one thing that people assume is that god is a person"

Many people assume god is a woman ;)

Anyways, I think your question is along the same lines as, "If god is all powerful, can he create a rock so big that he can't lift it?" Which is fun to ask annoying people who are uber religous ;).


So, yes, as ludicrous as it appears, I believe we "imagine" God. There might be.. or is proof of his existence through archaic texts and artifacts but since when has anyone actually seen God?

Well, I believe that it's not that we "imagine" God per se... Yes, I agree with your reasonings as to why we "invented" God, but I believe imagined is the wrong term. The correct term, I believe, would be that we have faith in God.

We have faith that there is a God in order to give meaning to our lives... Thus, the reason why we don't need proof of his existence, because then it wouldn't be faith :P

[dan020350]

I have no more comments about this question.

we or the majority of us, already assume that the answer is God has no beginning nor end. Because we are lazy to inquire, so we much accept what the teachers has said because we have no brains of our own.

[Redzeppelin]

I don't think my posts can be taken too seriously on this matter since I haven't even read the complete king james version of the bible.:(. Apparently you have Red, and you know a lot more pertaining to this issue than I do, but I never really was a religious "buff".. All I meant, Red, was that the "visage" (if you could call it that) of God is different according to different religions. Some see Him as a holy spirit, some see Him as an animal, some see Him as a pagan deity.... but all they are searching for, is a path to the truth.

This I understand. It is true that all who believe are searching for some variation of "God" - but I think that the God of Christianity is very different than other "versions" of God.


So, yes, as ludicrous as it appears, I believe we "imagine" God. There might be.. or is proof of his existence through archaic texts and artifacts but since when has anyone actually seen God? I think you can only rely on ancient evidence for so long until you begin to truly question, who He is and where He might be... Some claim to witness him in dreams, other claim they feel his presence... but the truth is.. no one has physically viewed God since the bible was written thousands of years ago... and even that is questionable.

Well, the idea of "proof" for God is an interesting one - because if proof existed, then who would choose not to serve Him? If one could "prove" God, then would our service to Him be legitimate? What I mean is this: would we serve Him for the right reasons, or the wrong (the wrong being a) fear, and b) desire for gain)? According to the Bible, what is at stake in the great cosmic battle is the character of God. The opening chapter of Job makes the nature of the problem clear: Satan asserts that Job only serves God because God rewards Job (with the subtle implication that God "bribes" us to love Him); Satan asserts further that - if God allowed Job to suffer - Job would abandon his devotion to God immediately. I've simplified greatly, but what I'm trying to get at is this: God's character has been challenged by Satan: in order for God to be vindicated as a God of Love, God must show that his followers love Him on His word - His promises - alone - with no proof beyond the Bible, the revelation of Nature, and the experience of the Holy Spirit working in one's heart. That's why God cannot be "evidencially" proven like one can prove gravity or plate tectonics.


Again, I might be talking nonsense, in the eyes of someone who appears to know so much on this matter as you do, but I'm trying to make a point. Ok-you can make me look stupid now :).

My friend, it would be supremely discourteous to attempt anything of the sort such as making anybody "look stupid" - especially with someone such as yourself who seems open to dialogue. I came here to ask questions and listen - if you did too, then we are partners in learning. :)

[Orionsbelt]

What I mean is this: would we serve Him for the right reasons, or the wrong (the wrong being a) fear, and b) desire for gain)?

Fear of sin? Desire for heaven?

Perhaps Job was simply sitting under the bodi tree blaming neither God nor man for the weather.

[kathycf]

On second thought, never mind. :)

[Redzeppelin]

Fear of sin? Desire for heaven?

Perhaps Job was simply sitting under the bodi tree blaming neither God nor man for the weather.

No - we serve God because He is the source of life, of all the blessings we have; we are greatful that He created us and this world to live in, and that He gave His son Jesus Christ so that all men - despite their sin - could have eternal life in heaven. That's why.

[dan020350]

"t is the religious thinking that has destrpyed the human mind that could
flower in to something extrodinary " whose quote am i using?

[Redzeppelin]

"t is the religious thinking that has destrpyed the human mind that could
flower in to something extrodinary " whose quote am i using?

Is this a guessing game of some sort? Why would I want to figure out who said this clearly misguided statement?

[dan020350]

because you don't want to.

[shadowy girl]

oh ya, you are Ironic!!
you know, you'll just keep asking yourself : now if somebody created god, who created somebody? and if X created somebody, who created X, and if Y created X, who created Y... ETC.

I'll tell you Islams opinion: God is greater that anything or anyone, so if someone cvreated him that means he isn't the greatest one ...
and god says in his holly kura'an (muslims bible) that he is one only, he wasn't born, and he has got no sons, all creatures -like human- need him, but he doesn't need them, and no one is as perfect as him, cuz simply, no one is PERFECT but him... something in this meaning

this forum gave you your turn to say your opinion, now I said mine, what do you say?

[dan020350]

I say, I love shadowy girl!!!!!!

[shadowy girl]

I'm begging you not to! I've got too many troubles with love!!
but this isn't a reply,is it?!

[dan020350]

ok. I hate shadowy girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lighten up.

[shadowy girl]

I didn't mean to... AH! what shall I say....!
you knowI like you, but ...
whatever!!

[dan020350]

:p :D :D :D :D

[shadowy girl]

:) thanks, but I hope you even read my post!

[kem]

as a wise man once said, do not try to think beyong the point God allowed u, thats a que u n we can never answer, no one knows Gods origins

[kem]

hi pips, what ald like help in is to understand as much as possible about muses. what inspires great people to be what they r n do what they do

[shadowy girl]

Good, saying kem, and welcome here.

[dan020350]

Also one saying goes

" You never knew God because you never seeked for him"

[ashley3554]

Oh dear dan .

Where ever I look I find you questioning something , thinking is a good thing but you have too much free time . :yawnb:

I mean it in a good way dear .



I'll tell you Islams opinion: God is greater that anything or anyone, so if someone cvreated him that means he isn't the greatest one ...
and god says in his holly kura'an (muslims bible) that he is one only, he wasn't born, and he has got no sons, all creatures -like human- need him, but he doesn't need them, and no one is as perfect as him, cuz simply, no one is PERFECT but him... something in this meaning


Say: He, Allah, is One.
Allah is He on Whom all depend.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And none is like Him.

"The Unity"


"t is the religious thinking that has destrpyed the human mind that could
flower in to something extrodinary "

Religion balances the human mind ,dear dan ..

[dan020350]

Ashely is either a new goddess to me, or a new witch to be hunted

[ashley3554]

Ashely is either a new goddess to me, or a new witch to be hunted

I am something in between dear dan ..:)

[shadowy girl]

thank you ashley....

[hyperborean]

I have some friends that believe in God, but they have a different perspective. They look at him as if he is a universal ambassador and he has power over this portion of the universe. Jesus was like a business deal that went wrong...he was supposed to be a catalyst for mankind and he instead sparked the dark age.

[andave_ya]

dark age? that's rather ominous. Do you mean the onslaught of sin? It wasn't Jesus' fault, it was mankind's fall.

[shadowy girl]

hyperborean my dear,

I believe God makes no mistakes, so nothing can go wrong... Cuz if anything went wrong then nothing will saty in order, nor will the unniverse...

please, this is posted for your friends, not for you.

[bazarov]

What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

After eating apple, they stopped to be perfect; now they have a choice of will. So God is not asking himself nothing.

Maybe of the topic; but I think it's nice...Dostoevsky once wrote:

two parallel lines, which according to Euclid can never meet on earth, may meet somewhere in infinity. I have come to the conclusion that, since I can't understand even that, I can't expect to understand about God. I acknowledge humbly that I have no faculty for settling such questions, I have a Euclidian earthly mind, and how could I solve problems that are not of this world? And I advise you never to think about it either, my dear Alyosha, especially about God, whether

[Redzeppelin]

I have some friends that believe in God, but they have a different perspective. They look at him as if he is a universal ambassador and he has power over this portion of the universe. Jesus was like a business deal that went wrong...he was supposed to be a catalyst for mankind and he instead sparked the dark age.

The beginning of "darkness" was largely due to the fact that the Devil - having been roundly defeated at the cross -went into overdrive in his attempts to derail humanity because he realized with Christ's "it is finished" that his time to act had suddently grown much shorted than he had anticipated, and that his stranglehold on humanity was forever and irrevocably broken.

[ashley3554]

What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

How did the creation of humans start:)

By our father Adam.. God made him from dirt.. and gave him a soul and taught him all the names and then he introduced him to the angels and told them to kneel for Adam so they did except the devil who did not approve ..

We all know that story I assume..

What happened before that story was how did the whole idea start..:)

God gathered his Angels and told them that he will create humans on earth then they told him :our God you want to create humans who will corrupt the earth and shed blood while we pray to you day and night.. God replied :I know what you do not know..


God made us the way we are and gave us the right to make mistakes that is way we are his favorites among all creatures.. we come before Angels even .. :)

We make mistakes then we learn and feel sorry and fix them later on and ask for his forgiveness.. This is how God wants it to be .. :)

And dear dan .. How can God be a man.. !!!!


Jesus was like a business deal that went wrong...he was supposed to be a catalyst for mankind and he instead sparked the dark age.

Jesus (al messiah) peace be upon him the son of the chaste virgin peace be upon her.. Is not a business deal that went wrong it all worked perfectly according to Gods plan..

Because God will allow Jesus (al messiah) to come and take his vengeance when the time comes..

Jesus (al messiah) will win at the end..

[dan020350]

Whether there is a God or not, should love be the way of life or war the way of life?

"We may not have the power to live foreever, but we have the power to live what is right" Cicero

[Lotuhouma]

Hey ur right on that i kinda agree wit you, but me as a christian is different. Not only do you imagine God you also believe in him and that their is a God that gave us free will ,who died for our sins. Ycan also interact with him spiritually hope i made any sense ...

In my mind i know what I'm try'na say but i don't know how to put it into words...hehe

[Lotuhouma]

Not only did God create Adam he Created Eve who sinned (Eating the Fruit when not supose to) why did this happen? Because Eve was tempted ...It was upto Eve to eat it or not...

[shadowy girl]

Not only did God create Adam he Created Eve who sinned (Eating the Fruit when not supose to) why did this happen? Because Eve was tempted ...It was upto Eve to eat it or not...

Good heaven! why do you think, or believe that Eve ate the forbidden fruit? In Islam we beleive thta Adam and Eve ate the fruit together!

[dan020350]

Whatever you both ate. But studying god or so they say ( how the story came about) One is really studying and learning about God, through an image he had created.

So how can you study God, if one creates the image of God? He is studying something he had created of his own.

[Morrisonhotel]

"Nothing"? Historical documents (non-religious sources)from the first century confirm the existence of Jesus Christ and that he had disciples/followers. The ancient city of Ninevah (from the book of Johah) has been discovered. Archeologists discovered what is known as the "Pilate Stone" - which confirms the identity of Pilate as governor of Judea during the time of Christ's life.

You are in correct in saying that there are secular documents which suggest the existence of Jesus - almost all known secular documents on the subject, however, are dated to being written after Jesus's suspected death date. Moreover, we must also remember that there are a few eminent scholars who are still skeptical on his existense. Furthermore, we must also be aware of the numerable other messiahs around during Jesus's lifetime who have also had the same sort of life as Jesus: performed miracles, had followers, and, ultimately, killed. I'm glad I paid attention in archaeology sometimes.

Back to the topic in hand. The old first-cause argument, eh? If I could be bothered digging out my copy of Why I am not a Christian I'd quote Mr. Russell. As it is, I couldn't - and no one else can - possibly say on the matter.

[hyperborean]

Jesus (al messiah) peace be upon him the son of the chaste virgin peace be upon her.. Is not a business deal that went wrong it all worked perfectly according to Gods plan..

Because God will allow Jesus (al messiah) to come and take his vengeance when the time comes..

Jesus (al messiah) will win at the end..

So you speak with God? You guys are buddies? A world run by religion...beings "in themselves" and not "of themselves" as sartre would put it. People killing others in the name of God was exactly what God wanted [insert sarcasm].

[JGL57]

There is no god. There is only "Dude!"

[shadowy girl]

So you speak with God? You guys are buddies? A world run by religion...beings "in themselves" and not "of themselves" as sartre would put it. People killing others in the name of God was exactly what God wanted [insert sarcasm].

No sweetie, she reads kuraan, people kill in the name of god, yes, but they have sinned by that! religions in not like this!


There is no god. There is only "Dude!"

what are you saying? God , I dare say, created you!

[Scheherazade]

Please carry on your discussions with the boundaries of common decency and courtesy.

Swearing is not allowed on this Forum.

Forum Rules (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/announcement.php?f=4)

[dan020350]

shadow girl, you just created God. If God is real you do not need to talk about it, or organized a religion. When someone says he knows God he knows
an idol of god, the image which he have created.

" To worship God, you worship the people around you, through love ( Jesus examples). Not by dropping donations in the charity box in the temple" Won Buddhism.

[JGL57]

More interesting to me than the question of whether god created himself or not is the follow-up question of whether god can just choose to implode and make himself completely disappear. If the answer is affirmative, then the next question would be "How do we (or can we) know, with certainty, that he hasn't already done that - perhaps even billions of years ago?"

[JGL57]

shadow girl, you just created God. If God is real you do not need to talk about it, or organized a religion. When someone says he knows God he knows
an idol of god, the image which he have created.

" To worship God, you worship the people around you, through love ( Jesus examples). Not by dropping donations in the charity box in the temple" Won Buddhism.


You sound like a Zen Buddhist, dan. That is sort of a good thing. :thumbs_up

[dan020350]

You sound like a Zen Buddhist, dan. That is sort of a good thing. :thumbs_up

Not that Zen is evil. Zen has no meaning to me any more.

[Vittoria666]

Dan, irony is a good thing...so i the truth...what do you think? did god create himself or is the big bang more believeable?

[dan020350]

Vittoria I love you, and welcome to the forum.

God is an image that cannot be observed nore annouce there he is, most people talk about God but doesn't do his work ( Jesus examples), and those who believe they know God really they don't know God, because it is they who created the image of God

Big bang is believeable or not, what matters is human beings why do they suffer and why is no one doing anything?

[Redzeppelin]

There is no god. There is only "Dude!"

:rolleyes:

The cool thing about being a believer is that you get to eventually see this statement revealed for what it truly is.

[JBI]

Man created god in his own image.

[TakeForExample]

Humans created 'god' as a symbol of meaning, so that they could see their lives as something more than what it is to them.

[pinkmoon]

"God has no beginning nor end" according to Christians.

This is also the case in Islam, but the fact is that the human mind cannot bear the idea of the "having no beginning nor an end".
I believe that god is the creator, he is not a man nor a creature, He gave us the free will but He told us what would happen if we choose to do this or that,
he knows what has happened and what is going to happen, and we shall not ask about what he is or how he look like, because this is non of our business, we have to obey him and to worship him in the way he told us to.
Life is like a story written by his majesty, he knows, sees, hears, everything we do, say, or even think of, but we have the will to do what we want, and he knows what we are going to do any way.

I know my post is long, but I still can say more if I may have time to do.:)

Not only did God create Adam he Created Eve who sinned (Eating the Fruit when not supose to) why did this happen? Because Eve was tempted ...It was upto Eve to eat it or not...



It was the devil who made her and Adam to make this sin, dear.

Humans created 'god' as a symbol of meaning, so that they could see their lives as something more than what it is to them.
Then what is the purpose of life, dear Takeforexample? and who is controlling the life then?

[Lote-Tree]

This is also the case in Islam, but the fact is that the human mind cannot bear the idea of the "having no beginning nor an end".


Yes. It can now. Stephen Hawkings no-boundary Proposal does just that - envisages a Universe without Begining or End. The M Theory envisages a Multiverse where universes bubble out from the Quantum field etc...

[TakeForExample]

Then what is the purpose of life, dear Takeforexample?

The question everyone asks, what is the purpose of life? It's an overused questions with too many answers to say just one. To be honest it is a vague question all together, life is a general term that describes our raw existence here. Life, when I see it but you can contradict if you must, is plainly purposeless. The longer each of us lives, the clearer we come to realize that existence has no purpose and what it really has is just meaning.

Each of us assumes he or she has a certain task he or she must accomplish before we expire and once we find this certain purpose and fulfill it, we deem ourselves worthy to die. But is it really like that? Is the universe...is life, that simple? The years people take to find their 'use', searching far and wide for something they don't even know. It's not a useless search for some because in their searches you find meaning, but they never really find purpose.

That's my answer to your question here, but the real topic is did 'God' create himself? or did man create 'God'? Which to place it simply, humans see themselves as God already, making them create their idols to their liking (I'm a Catholic, just so you know, so I'm seeing it within Catholic points).


and who is controlling the life then

We aren't marionettes that need the outside force to control our existence. We have our own minds, we have our own instincts and we have the abillity to control our own lives, so why must we act like puppets?

I cannot deny the fact that there could be a god, because I know that there is always a possiblity. Maybe he does control our lives, maybe we do have a purpose, but religion is all just one large assumption after another without any end or common decision.

I mean no disrespect, this merely an opinion on life.

You and I see things differently pinkmoon, that's a given fact. What do you think then is the purpose of life? And who is the one that controls it?

[pinkmoon]

I mean no disrespect, this merely an opinion on life.

You and I see things differently pinkmoon, that's a given fact. What do you think then is the purpose of life? And who is the one that controls it?

Dear, Takeforexample:
When I read your reply I feel like you are shouting at me but I don't think so,
I respect all religions too.

To answer the question: what is the purpose of life?
In my belief, God created us to worship Him, and this is for the good of us, He does not need our worshipping, but we need his mercy, his love, his gifts, and his protection from the devil who wants us to be in Hell with himself.

If we worship God, love Him, believed in His existence, believed in his prophets, in His angels, in His holly books, and believed in His greatness, we will be rewarded on Earth and in Heaven; if we do not, we will suffer in Hell forever, and we will not be satisfied on Earth no matter how much or what do we have.

Prophet Mohammed said that we should work in life as if we will live forever, and we should work for the next life as if we will die tomorrow.
I do not know if this helps to convey my purpose but it sure helps.

So life should have a purpose, I think about life as a land that we have to pass in order to arrive to the next life, and this land contains too many ways, or streets, and that God told us what streets we should choose, and what streets we should avoid, and we have the free will to choose.
The ways we choose will determine our last seat in the next life.

The second question: who controls the life?
Of course God is the one who controls our lives in the way that he controls our fate, our destiny, he controls the amount of the food, money, and properties in life, and he controls our age; but He gave us the free will to behave in a good or bad manner, and so we choose the ways that will put us in the position that we deserve at the end.

And if some people say that God has been created, then they believe that there is a greater one who created God, so why can't they believe that this creator is God Himself who was not created and who has no beginning,[ as we said earlier that the our minds do not bear this, as we can't imagine that there is something that never ends].

My all respect to you all….:)

[TakeForExample]

Dear Pinkmoon,
I really wasn't shouting at you but I understand if it felt like that, since for a fact people take it from me that way.

So I guess, when it gets down to it, no one is wrong nor right about religion and God in general. Everyone has different opinions that can't be contradicted by anyone else since everyone would just be fighting belief-against-belief.

As I see it, the only thing that many would agree on is that if you live your life well and in a life-giving manner then we end up with something better than we expected.

Once again, I'm sorry if I rose negaive emotions in you.
I respect all religions and I'm sorry if I insulted anyone, honestly I didn't mean to, but I lean towards the agnostic idea rather than the aethiestic ideas, and I have doubts as simple as it gets.

[pinkmoon]

It is OK, Takeforexample, you insulted no one.:)
Everyone comes with his\her opinions, and believes in order for others to
Respect and understand his\her attitudes toward things..:D

How I love this forum! :)

[dan020350]

It is OK, Takeforexample, you insulted no one.:)
Everyone comes with his\her opinions, and believes in order for others to
Respect and understand his\her attitudes toward things..:D

How I love this forum! :)

I love forums when they realize they cannot ban me!

[Scheherazade]

I love forums when they realize they cannot ban me!Is that a challenge? :p

[weepingforloman]

according to the christians, The meaning of the cross means cross out the "I", the me. But the meaning or substance has been lost because of the prejudice authorities, the one called the pope.

That's just really shallow, weird stuff. The idea of the cross is not to negate mankind's identity as "I," but to redeem it from its deifying of its "I." We have made ourselves into gods, and, to that extent, the cross destroys our perception of ourselves. There is only one God, and we are meant to be united to Him. As the eloquent George MacDonald said (speaking as God) "You must be strong with My strength, and blessed with My blessedness, for I have no other to give you." The only goodness in life comes from God.

[Big Al]

To answer the question: what is the purpose of life?
In my belief, God created us to worship Him, and this is for the good of us, He does not need our worshipping, but we need his mercy, his love, his gifts, and his protection from the devil who wants us to be in Hell with himself.

This doesn't make sense to me...He created us to worship him, but he doesn't need our worship? And considering the number of people who will (allegedly) end up in hell, wouldn't it have been most merciful not to create us in the first place?


And if some people say that God has been created, then they believe that there is a greater one who created God, so why can't they believe that this creator is God Himself who was not created and who has no beginning,[ as we said earlier that the our minds do not bear this, as we can't imagine that there is something that never ends].


Actually, a great many scientists operate under the idea that the universe is infinite.

[dan020350]

I don't know what are you all babbling about anymore after the 4th page? How are you serving God, going to the church? How are you serving yourself, going to work?

"those who believe in god believe in themselves, those who do not seek wisdom nor does God's will, are no better then those who does not believe in God"

[Vittoria666]

Vittoria I love you, and welcome to the forum.

God is an image that cannot be observed nore annouce there he is, most people talk about God but doesn't do his work ( Jesus examples), and those who believe they know God really they don't know God, because it is they who created the image of God

Big bang is believeable or not, what matters is human beings why do they suffer and why is no one doing anything?

You and i need to discuss this topic more cause i have like a zillion questions coming..... :lol:

Why do you think man created the image of god and do you think that this is the same as paganism?

I think that som people do his work... The pope, Preists!!!!

but you are right, no one realy knows god.

[dan020350]

victoria

I thank you because I think you have read and examine my comment carefully.

I think that som people do his work... The pope, Preists!!!!

but you are right, no one realy knows god.

People have a zillion questions, who started the mess?
People created the image of God because of hope, and all hopes are paganism.

There are some who do ( God's work) , but how do they do it? Go to everybody house and say join us? Like islams and the rest, "we are loving people who love our God, and I want to see the rest of humanity save"- So each set of religion go out trying to persuade others to join their religion. How do love exist? The priest says I am going to curse you- where is the love?

[Vittoria666]

victoria

I thank you because I think you have read and examine my comment carefully.

I think that som people do his work... The pope, Preists!!!!

but you are right, no one realy knows god.

People have a zillion questions, who started the mess?
People created the image of God because of hope, and all hopes are paganism.

There are some who do ( God's work) , but how do they do it? Go to everybody house and say join us? Like islams and the rest, "we are loving people who love our God, and I want to see the rest of humanity save"- So each set of religion go out trying to persuade others to join their religion. How do love exist? The priest says I am going to curse you- where is the love?

Dan,
you have quite the opinion!
people do gods work by joining charities, helping their own community, bringing home peace and so on so on.... yes you are right, hope is the reason..i just didnt read much into it...:lol:
those quotes you have their are quite intriguing and caught my interrest by the arm if you know what i mean...
i reseached the bible a little deeper and i have a new question for you?
What do you believe out of alll this mess? what makes scence for you... i am just curiouse since your opinion is both right and strong but i do believa what you said about hope being linked to paganism...

[Vittoria666]

I don't know what are you all babbling about anymore after the 4th page? How are you serving God, going to the church? How are you serving yourself, going to work?

"those who believe in god believe in themselves, those who do not seek wisdom nor does God's will, are no better then those who does not believe in God"

Dan,

once again you are right... i cant dissagree with you anymore!!!!!!
that little quote is true and how do we serve ourselves and god?

[dan020350]

What do you believe out of alll this mess?....
How do we serve ourselves and god? .

It begins first by wonders and interests. If one is not interested and unwilling to explore the signs of meanings and great sages of history and world, it is of no use. Exploring the sages not only mean their life but work also. Sages are both good and evil, and legendary form past to modern, people like James Dean, Marlyin Monroe, Albert Einstein, Napolen, Bruce lee and such.

It is the original founders not the followers. Each religion and school has a founder, each founder has their source or origin, teacher or master.


In order to serve ourselves we must serve others, in order to serve god, we must show mercy and commpassion to others. This is what I have gotten in all the mess.

[Bookworm4Him]

What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

nope. He didn't.

"One assumes many things" One may assume as much as he likes, but that doesn't mean it's right.

"One thing that man assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne..." Not all men assume that, but aside from that point, God isn't a man. That is one of your biggest mistakes. God is God. He created man in His image Just cause I make an awesome lifesized plato statue of me doesn't mean that I'm plato. (Although that would be pretty cool, wouldn't it? :) ) Now Jesus, on the other hand, is both God and man (something called the hypostatic union. very confusing, so let's save that for another debate)

As to wondering why man sinned, He already knew why. He's all-knew why. Man was created in His own image, and many of the same characteristics such as a will. When Adam and Eve wanted to be equal with God and thus ate of the fruit, they disobeyed Him, which is a sin, and that is why we are imperfect. :thumbs_up

[dan020350]

nope. He didn't.

"One assumes many things" One may assume as much as he likes, but that doesn't mean it's right.

"One thing that man assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne..." Not all men assume that, but aside from that point, God isn't a man. That is one of your biggest mistakes. God is God. He created man in His image Just cause I make an awesome lifesized plato statue of me doesn't mean that I'm plato. (Although that would be pretty cool, wouldn't it? :) ) Now Jesus, on the other hand, is both God and man (something called the hypostatic union. very confusing, so let's save that for another debate)

As to wondering why man sinned, He already knew why. He's all-knew why. Man was created in His own image, and many of the same characteristics such as a will. When Adam and Eve wanted to be equal with God and thus ate of the fruit, they disobeyed Him, which is a sin, and that is why we are imperfect. :thumbs_up

It seems you want to start a new dialogue. The first big mistake you have assumed, is that I wrote that purposely and sincerely, I just made up a open comment that is all. I know you havent' read the rest of the pages but that is okay.

Since we are talking about assumptions about God. God is your own assumption. You have created in your own image of God, or following someone's elses image or interpretation. WE do not know what is God, nor will we ever will what is he. I open the debate to point to everyone's mistake when they talk about God.

[Redzeppelin]

Since we are talking about assumptions about God. God is your own assumption. You have created in your own image of God, or following someone's elses image or interpretation. WE do not know what is God, nor will we ever will what is he. I open the debate to point to everyone's mistake when they talk about God.

If one believes the Bible, then there are clear things we can know about God; if we disbelieve the Bible, then all we have is assumptions. But what gives you the idea that you have the authority to point out other people's "mistakes" when it comes to God? Where did your revelation as to who He is come from?

[JGL57]

...I think every body would one day lie on a dying bed. Would you like the help of your children or God?

The above dualistic logic is based on the assumption that "you", "I" and all other persons are each an eternal spirit who, when the body dies, flits away to some other dimension – heaven, hell, paradise, Valhalla, etc.

You have proof of that ontology? I didn't think so.

In Hinduism, e.g., there is Aham, or ego self, which is part of the dream illusion of Vishnu, and there is Atman (true Self) which is timeless, i.e., Atman = Brahman. The Aham comes and goes – don’t worry about it. The Atman is not part of the birth, life, and death cycle – don’t worry about that.

IOW, the picture is more complex than a mere comparative religion course focused only on Confucianism and christianity, old bean.

[Redzeppelin]

The above dualistic logic is based on the assumption that "you", "I" and all other persons are each an eternal spirit who, when the body dies, flits away to some other dimension – heaven, hell, paradise, Valhalla, etc.

You have proof of that ontology? I didn't think so.


Dianna's assumption (God exists) is as valid as yours (only matter exists).

If she had proof, you'd believe in God too (but for the wrong reasons).

[weepingforloman]

When my mother was in hospital and I was going to see her. All patients in her room were admiring an old woman whose children caring her day and night for they don’t believe God but Confucius. In their eyes that only children can help their parents when they could not move by themselves. Confucius believes that the children are the investment of parents, so the parents caring their children as the most precious property. In that way the child is the only God of the parents, while the public opinion teach the children that the parents are the only God of children. They don’t expect after death they may go to paradise like a Christian but they need their children help them died in comfort. A Christian spends all his life for the paradise but a Confucius spends his life for a comfortable death. A child serves and cares their parents when they are on the dying bed. They children doing this are also educating their children to treat the aged person with respect. It is like a chain of human race one by one.
But this religious leave no room for God. That is to say once the parents is on bed, the children have no time to go to church and to pray for God. Anyway, parent is first and God is second. I have read Bible that Jesus tell a person leaving his dead father alone and pray for God.
I think every body would one day lie on a dying bed. Would you like the help of your children or God?

Ultimately, it is impossible to separate the good actions of God from the good actions of humanity. Only through God's grace are good works done, so if children are dutiful, they have been made dutiful through God's action. The point is essentially moot (to me, obviously--others disagree). However, filial piety in and of itself is a good thing, but it is not the best thing, or even a very good thing.

[JGL57]

... Only through God's grace are good works done, so if children are dutiful, they have been made dutiful through God's action...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here - are you saying that only theists can do good works, and that the only parents who can produce dutiful children are theists? No pantheists or atheist parents can do good works or raise dutiful children?

Is that what you are saying?

[weepingforloman]

Not at all. I allude to John Calvin's argument of general and special grace. General grace is the means through which all people do good (God provides this to all men at some times, most of us experience it frequently). Special grace is the particular gift He grants to those He elects as believers-- the gift of faith.

Grace and Peace.

[JGL57]

Not at all. I allude to John Calvin's argument of general and special grace. General grace is the means through which all people do good (God provides this to all men at some times, most of us experience it frequently). Special grace is the particular gift He grants to those He elects as believers-- the gift of faith.

Grace and Peace.

So then it is a distinction without a difference?

Sorry I asked.

[weepingforloman]

We are all dependent on God's grace for all our good works. I can no more do good under my own power than I can benchpress a Greyhound bus. Nor can anyone else. But, because of God's grace, we all do good at times.

[JGL57]

We are all dependent on God's grace for all our good works. I can no more do good under my own power than I can benchpress a Greyhound bus. Nor can anyone else. But, because of God's grace, we all do good at times.

That's merely an unsubstantiated assertion - but thanks for playing our game.

[Redzeppelin]

That's merely an unsubstantiated assertion - but thanks for playing our game.

As unsubstantiated as your claim that God doesn't exist - and thanks for playing our game.

[weepingforloman]

That's merely an unsubstantiated assertion - but thanks for playing our game.

Unsubstantiated perhaps (though I don't think so), on the basis of what you would regard as evidence, but I base my theological thought on scripture... I find the evidence there pretty strong for my view, but you would reject that evidence... I was merely clarifying my point, not stating it as though it is unquestionably fact.

[no name]

When I was just little girl I had asked older people who is god and who created him….
Older people used to be told not to think about this thing…..
I used to get angry…but when I grow up I had the answer
God is more than our small mind…..we always think that every thing has something that created it but that is what god taught us…and we know only what he wants……
U couldn’t imagine what god is like….. It’s just like describing colors to a blind man
………..



What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

[JGL57]

Unsubstantiated perhaps (though I don't think so), on the basis of what you would regard as evidence, but I base my theological thought on scripture... I find the evidence there pretty strong for my view, but you would reject that evidence... I was merely clarifying my point, not stating it as though it is unquestionably fact.

IOW, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. One man's meat is another man's poison. One man's religion is another man's superstition. Billions of humans are pantheists. Other billions of humans are literalist monotheists. The conversions from one camp to another have historically been a very small per cent of the totals, and seem to be always thus.

Fair enough. I don't question your personal religious experience. I just wonder why I should take it seriously. Any particular reason I should?


...U couldn’t imagine what god is like….. It’s just like describing colors to a blind man...

No argument there. I just wonder why so many not only describe god to their fellow humans, but think they know god's mind and wish to share this with others - as if a god needs help with his omniscience or something. Explain that one to me nn.

[weepingforloman]

"Go forth and make disciples of the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

The Great Commission. It still applies.

Grace and Peace.

[JGL57]

"Go forth and make disciples of the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

The Great Commission. It still applies.

Grace and Peace.

That's one definition. Another is "bothering people".

[weepingforloman]

Okay, then I'm sorry I bothered you. But you've bothered me, as well.

Grace and Peace.

[JGL57]

Okay, then I'm sorry I bothered you. But you've bothered me, as well.

Grace and Peace.

It is a retalitory bother. If theists did not exist, then neither would atheists. Atheism is a response to theism. Cut it out - and I will respond in kind.

[weepingforloman]

And here I thought you were pantheist...

[Scheherazade]

Please do not personalise your discussions.

JGL> If you don't like getting involved in discussions with those who do not share your views, please feel free not to post in this section of the Forum.

[JGL57]

And here I thought you were pantheist...

{edit}You should read "The Necessity of Atheism" by poet Percy Shelley. He was an admitted pantheist and an admitted atheist.

There is the Buddhist view that all paradoxes are just "seemingly" paradoxes. I think they are right.

{edit}

[JGL57]

Please do not personalise your discussions.

JGL> If you don't like getting involved in discussions with those who do not share your views, please feel free not to post in this section of the Forum.

I like your signature.

[NikolaiI]

I know it is a book that is not the bible, but you should read "The Necessity of Atheism" by poet Percy Shelley. He was an admitted pantheist and an admitted atheist.

There is the Buddhist view that all paradoxes are just "seemingly" paradoxes. I think they are right.

Stretch the muscles in your head once in a while, weep. It won't hurt - it's actually good for you.

Yes, absolutely. That's a big part of Buddhism, as well as the fallacy of duality, etc. Buddhist logic allows for contradictions that western logic doesn't. "No Boundary", by Ken Wilber, is a really good book, that explains it. "Entering the Stream" and "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" are also good books on the subjects. Eastern wisdom...oh man.

[JGL57]

Yes, absolutely. That's a big part of Buddhism, as well as the fallacy of duality, etc. Buddhist logic allows for contradictions that western logic doesn't. "No Boundary", by Ken Wilber, is a really good book, that explains it. "Entering the Stream" and "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones" are also good books on the subjects. Eastern wisdom...oh man.

Per your advice, I've actually watched some Ken Wilber youtube videos now and, sure, he seems to be right on.

I guess I am old school, however. Reading Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell pretty much clued me in regarding the concept of the Non-Dual, and how/why religion is mythic narrative literalized and abused. Per me, Wilber is just preaching to the choir. But there are many others he can help in furthering their understanding via his books and lectures.

[NikolaiI]

I'll keep those names in mind. Do they have youtube?

Ah, thank you, I am impressed with Alan Watts.

Oh man, thank you so much J. This is really good to hear. It's basically what I learned from Ken Wilber, and Buddhism, but this he is explaining it really well.

(those comments were from different times :) )

Ah! it is brilliant! Describe no boundary in space by talking about the sun. How genius.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rTaklXTSDPE this is what I'm talking about by the way. I hope I haven't influenced anyone to disregard it by my high appraisal...

[JGL57]

I'll keep those names in mind. Do they have youtube?

Ah, thank you, I am impressed with Alan Watts.

Oh man, thank you so much J. This is really good to hear. It's basically what I learned from Ken Wilber, and Buddhism, but this he is explaining it really well.

(those comments were from different times :) )

If you are a reader (heh, heh) there are more than forty books available by Watts and even more than that by Campbell, if you count the ones he just edited.

The reason I am so damn smart is that I have read nearly all of them. :lol:

[NikolaiI]

I recently wrote a short story about how time is an illusion, but one that has a purpose, to illustrate life. This is good stuff, life changing. I am going to call my friend and ask him if he's heard of Alan Watts, and if he says no, I'll ask him if he's ready to have his life changed. Hahaha. I think it is. Oh yes I do.

Well, anyway, thank you.

[JGL57]

I recently wrote a short story about how time is an illusion, but one that has a purpose, to illustrate life. This is good stuff, life changing. I am going to call my friend and ask him if he's heard of Alan Watts, and if he says no, I'll ask him if he's ready to have his life changed. Hahaha. I think it is. Oh yes I do.

I might suggest that you suggest to your friend starting with these books, then go from there:

By Alan Watts:

The Supreme Identity
The Book
This is It
Cloud-Hidden, Whereabouts Unknown

-and-

By Joseph Campbell:

Myths to Live By
The Inner Reaches of Outer Space.

[Vittoria666]

It begins first by wonders and interests. If one is not interested and unwilling to explore the signs of meanings and great sages of history and world, it is of no use. Exploring the sages not only mean their life but work also. Sages are both good and evil, and legendary form past to modern, people like James Dean, Marlyin Monroe, Albert Einstein, Napolen, Bruce lee and such.

It is the original founders not the followers. Each religion and school has a founder, each founder has their source or origin, teacher or master.


In order to serve ourselves we must serve others, in order to serve god, we must show mercy and commpassion to others. This is what I have gotten in all the mess.

I have figured out that recently too but i have one question... what do you mean by Sages? can you please explain in depth?

[Pendragon]

Does anyone mind if I ask a rather obvious question? See, we have this explaination for the creation of the universe, something from nothing, the Big Bang. The Universe created itself by chance. And most people seem to have no problem swallowing that at all. No need for a God, the Universe had to create itself. Given infinite chance it becomes a certainty.

Now. If one postulates that God is indeed as described, all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipressent, why would such a being not have the power to create Him or Herself? There is no paradox there. Just a question of what do you choose to believe. If you cannot believe in the existence of such a being, then the answer for you will always be "No, He couldn't create Himself because beings like that do not exist!"

If you do believe, your answer will always be "Why is there any question? He exists, so of course He could create Himself!"

God Bless

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[JGL57]

Does anyone mind if I ask a rather obvious question? See, we have this explaination for the creation of the universe, something from nothing, the Big Bang. The Universe created itself by chance. And most people seem to have no problem swallowing that at all. No need for a God, the Universe had to create itself. Given infinite chance it becomes a certainty....

That's one way of looking at it, I suppose, but I would think the average practicing scientist would have a quite more sophisticated way of looking at it and explaining it. E.g., they might question the usefulness of the word "chance" here. Whatever.


...Now. If one postulates that God is indeed as described, all-powerful, all-knowing, omnipressent, why would such a being not have the power to create Him or Herself? There is no paradox there. Just a question of what do you choose to believe. If you cannot believe in the existence of such a being, then the answer for you will always be "No, He couldn't create Himself because beings like that do not exist!"

If you do believe, your answer will always be "Why is there any question? He exists, so of course He could create Himself!"...

Of course. Which queen was it in the Wizard of Oz who claimed to believe in at least six impossible things before breakfast?

Once one accepts magic as a plausible and credible possibility, then all bets are indeed off. E.g., the events depicted on the TV show "Charmed" are no more fantastic, in essence, than the many miraculous claims of the western monotheistic orthodox religions.

I don't see the downside in being initially and provisionally skeptical concerning such ideas. I.e., I see no good reason to assume magic is a fact.

Uh, do you?

[tulysg1982]

i love to think that somewhere of this universe humanbeings achieved so much power that they created this world and examining and reversed the whole evolution system so that they may have missing link of creation.So that humanbeing is imperfect. but i also love to think that they love us but they have some limitations.this is my own philosophy.

[tulysg1982]

i love to think that somewhere in this universe humanbeings achieved so much power that they created this world and examining and reversed the whole evolution system so that they may have missing link of creation.So that humanbeing is imperfect. but i also love to think that they love us but they have some limitations.this is my own philosophy.

[Pendragon]

Of course. Which queen was it in the Wizard of Oz who claimed to believe in at least six impossible things before breakfast?


I don't see the downside in being initially and provisionally skeptical concerning such ideas. I.e., I see no good reason to assume magic is a fact.

Uh, do you? Wrong book. White Queen, Through the Looking Glass, the sequel to Alice in Wonderland.

Magic? Careful what you easily dismiss. As portrayed in general in most fiction, no, I do not for an instant assume it to be fact. There are forces out there I cannot explain and people with strange abilities I know for a fact are not fake. What they have I couldn't say, but I think them best left alone.

God and magic have nothing to do with each other. I see no good reason to not be skeptical about everything happening by chance. So we have told each other what we believe and where we stand.

Now, here's my hand, I'm Pen, how you doing? I also see no reason why we cannot get along fine and be downright friendly!

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l108/AbsalomKane/Smilies/PuppyLove.gif

[blazeofglory]

What does this question implies?

One assumes many things, and one thing that man
assumes is that god is a man who is sitting on a throne
whom is contemplating, " What have I gone wrong? I am perfect, how can
human beings be imperfect?"

This question that God is perfect or God has to perfect himslef or the fact that there is a degree of perfection is very moving and deepeneing.

First I ask whether God is man made or the product of his imagination or his imaginatiuon has given it a name.

How god happened to exist? How does he exist. We do exist against this planet. There is space and time. Is God beyond it.

We can have endless querstions one entails another endlessly. We can not put an end to questioning.

As you if God made us, and we are his creations why should we be imperfect.
The logic that if you are an artist and if you compose a piece of art or paint something on canvas you will give it an air of perfection. You can not take a breath of contenment unless you give your artefact a tinge of peerfection.

If God is happy and satisfied why are not happy and disatisfied.

If Gid is emblematic of joyousness whay this world is filled with woes.

There are reasons for us to be skeptics despite that uder a veil of religion we attribute all these questions to God or we do not want to question and or that questioning the unquestionable is a not a good thing to do.

If God is rich, and we are his progenies and how can see his children die of starvation.

This question you raised stirred countless questions form me.

Anyway it is interesting to go on asking.

Despite the fact that knowing God is unthinkable

Yet we will not stop asking questions

At times your very questions contain your answers.

[Gorilla King]

The simple answer to virtually all those questions is sin. And the answer to that is Christ.

As to the nature of the existence of God, yes, He does indeed exist beyond space and time, BUT He also operates within it. However, it would be a mistake to say that He is bound by it.

Think of it this way. As humans, we experience life as if in a linear line progressing from birth to death. God on the other hand, not being bound to that line exists in three dimensions so to speak and sees the entirety of the line at once. Therefore, while something we experience along our own sort of time line may seem wrong and unjust, it MAY have happened because of a greater good which God sees but we cannot.

[JGL57]

The simple answer to virtually all those questions is sin. And the answer to that is Christ.

As to the nature of the existence of God, yes, He does indeed exist beyond space and time, BUT He also operates within it. However, it would be a mistake to say that He is bound by it.

Think of it this way. As humans, we experience life as if in a linear line progressing from birth to death. God on the other hand, not being bound to that line exists in three dimensions so to speak and sees the entirety of the line at once. Therefore, while something we experience along our own sort of time line may seem wrong and unjust, it MAY have happened because of a greater good which God sees but we cannot.

That’s quite a mythic narrative. I would find trouble taking it literally. I doubt that you really know these things to be factually true. I figure ultimate reality is basically unknowable to humans.

The inescapable fact is your personal insights and experiences don't mean any more to me than mine does to you. So, why can't we just leave at that, since there is no good reason for anyone to take any one else's word for anything regarding the issue of ultimate things? Huh?

[Pendragon]

The inescapable fact is your personal insights and experiences don't mean any more to me than mine does to you. So, why can't we just leave at that, since there is no good reason for anyone to take any one else's word for anything regarding the issue of ultimate things? Huh?Very well said. When you are dealing with the infinate, can we expect finite beings to comprehend? JGL is making a great point. We aren't going to agree on everything anyway so could we just stop the agrument and say that? The thing we are dealing with is bigger than any of us, perhaps we all are partially correct, perhaps someone is, perhaps we all missed the target. Life is too short to spend it arguing what we may never know.

God Bless all, whether or not you believe He exists, and peace be with you

Pen