Purpose of the Brotherhood's book?

[kandaurov]

I was just wondering... if O'Brien had been watching Winston all along, and if the mere act of joining the Brotherhood was more than sufficient evidence to arrest them, why was the book The Theory and Practice of Oligarchial Collectivism so throughoutly detailed, and so aware of how wrong the whole concept behind the Party was?

O'Brien co-wrote it. If he can write that, how could he be the baddie? I know, I know, there is the doublethink issue, but that doesn't satisfy me. There must be a reason why the book delivered such an accurate and apparently freedom-friendly account of reality. O'Brien said later to Winston that all of what is in the book is garbage, absurd garbage. Then why did he come up with it in the first place?

I can understand that that was the way Orwell found to discourse on how things went so awry. But still, I find it rather inconceivable that O'Brien himself would write that. To what end?


Feedback would be appreciated!

[ach]

The ultimate aim of The Party, as O'Brien stated, is power for the sake of power. In order to accomplish this, The Party must be able to define reality on it's own terms through the use of mind control, regardless of contradictions (doublethink). The Brotherhood, and Goldstein himself, is a fictitious organization designed by the The Party, probably under the direction of the Thought Police. The "book" is no more than a prop for the fictitious "Brotherhood", a fake manifesto for a fake organization. Much like the fake antique shop run by the fake shop owner. The "book", in my opinion, contains many elements of truth, however, the truth is irrelevant. Under the influence of The Party, the truth, or reality, is fluid and changes constantly to suit the needs of The Party. The "truth" can be used for the purposes of entrapment, as with Winston, or for enslavement, as with Parsons. The ultimate goal is complete mind control, including the destruction of every problematic emotion, such as love and desire. In order to do this, elaborate schemes and mechanisms, such as The Brotherhood , Goldstein, the book and the Ministry of Truth, and most of all, Big Brother, must be put in place so as to be aware and in control of every tendency, as much as possible, of every human in Oceania.

Also, keep in mind, O'Brien is insane, along with all true believers in The Party. Victory for The Party is to make everyone else as insane as they are.

[The Atheist]

I think you nearly nailed it:


The ultimate aim of The Party, as O'Brien stated, is power for the sake of power. In order to accomplish this, The Party must be able to define reality on it's own terms through the use of mind control, regardless of contradictions (doublethink). The Brotherhood, and Goldstein himself, is a fictitious organization designed by the The Party, probably under the direction of the Thought Police. The "book" is no more than a prop for the fictitious "Brotherhood", a fake manifesto for a fake organization. Much like the fake antique shop run by the fake shop owner. The "book", in my opinion, contains many elements of truth, however, the truth is irrelevant.

More importantly, while it contained some truth, it contained the type of truth which Winston and Julia wanted to see and which was consistent with Winston's memories.

To complete the destruction of Winston and Julia as human beings and turn them into mindless slaves of The Party, it was necessary for the Thought Police to know every part of Winston & Julia's minds. Accordingly, to ensure Winston, in particular, gave every part of his mind to the telescreen, a high degree of realism was used in the book.



Under the influence of The Party, the truth, or reality, is fluid and changes constantly to suit the needs of The Party. The "truth" can be used for the purposes of entrapment, as with Winston, or for enslavement, as with Parsons. The ultimate goal is complete mind control, including the destruction of every problematic emotion, such as love and desire. In order to do this, elaborate schemes and mechanisms, such as The Brotherhood , Goldstein, the book and the Ministry of Truth, and most of all, Big Brother, must be put in place so as to be aware and in control of every tendency, as much as possible, of every human in Oceania.

Perfect.


Also, keep in mind, O'Brien is insane, along with all true believers in The Party. Victory for The Party is to make everyone else as insane as they are.

Can't agree on the insanity.

I can certainly show, using completely accurate logic, why the Party and its means as outlined is an excellent answer in achieving a goal of permanent rule. I can also put an excellent case by argument from the common good to show that it's necessary. I think it's a perfectly sane way of achieving the goal. (I also hope that human morality precludes it ever happening, but I'm a cynical atheist, so I take no bets on it!)

This is where both Hitler and Stalin added to 1984. Both were godless heathens (although Hitler gave the appearance of being a theist - RC to be precise) who saw their own immortality in the "Thousand-Year Reich" and the USSR. Even quite prophetically, 1984 allows a glimpse of what actually happened during the 1970s and '80s when a succession of USSR leaders were alive in tv pictures only. Leonid Brezhnev had a large helping of Big Brother's blood in his veins, I'm quite sure.

[kandaurov]

Ach, thank you ever so much, way to write a first post!

Atheist, thank you likewise for adding up to the debate!

What you two have said does make sense, coming to think of it. And makes the book yet more terrifying.

One more thing: where do you stand on O'Brien's ESP capacities? He knows exactly what Winston thinks at times, but that can perhaps be explained by his refined reading of non-verbal language, namely body language. But how about the prophetic dream that Winston had, 'We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness' (quoting from memory, might have a mistake or two)? Granted, it adds up to O'Brien's monstrous, manipulative power, but isn't it a little bit far fetched? Or can we assume that O'Brien sent some kind of subliminal message that caused Winston to dream about it?

[The Atheist]

Very good question, which I think you've answered yourself - it's more a testament to O'Brien and The Party's total control of the situation, even before Winston himself was aware of it.

It emphasised O'Brien's ability to be in Winston's head. I think that's signalled in O'Brien's lack of surprise when Winston came out with the "in the place where there is no darkness" at O'Brien's house.

[kandaurov]

I think that's signalled in O'Brien's lack of surprise when Winston came out with the "in the place where there is no darkness" at O'Brien's house.

Why, that's right! Hadn't remember that. Thanks for the instant feedback!

[ach]

I think you nearly nailed it:



More importantly, while it contained some truth, it contained the type of truth which Winston and Julia wanted to see and which was consistent with Winston's memories.

To complete the destruction of Winston and Julia as human beings and turn them into mindless slaves of The Party, it was necessary for the Thought Police to know every part of Winston & Julia's minds. Accordingly, to ensure Winston, in particular, gave every part of his mind to the telescreen, a high degree of realism was used in the book.




Perfect.



Can't agree on the insanity.

I can certainly show, using completely accurate logic, why the Party and its means as outlined is an excellent answer in achieving a goal of permanent rule. I can also put an excellent case by argument from the common good to show that it's necessary. I think it's a perfectly sane way of achieving the goal. (I also hope that human morality precludes it ever happening, but I'm a cynical atheist, so I take no bets on it!)

This is where both Hitler and Stalin added to 1984. Both were godless heathens (although Hitler gave the appearance of being a theist - RC to be precise) who saw their own immortality in the "Thousand-Year Reich" and the USSR. Even quite prophetically, 1984 allows a glimpse of what actually happened during the 1970s and '80s when a succession of USSR leaders were alive in tv pictures only. Leonid Brezhnev had a large helping of Big Brother's blood in his veins, I'm quite sure.

Hi.

Regarding insanity, I understand your point. I call O'Brien insane for two reasons. First, at least one of the underpinnings of The Party's ideology is "doublethink". Logically speaking "doublethink" is itself illogical, regardless of whether or not it is essential to the aims The Party. Secondly, in my opinion at least, just because something is logical doesn't make it sane (I've long believed that the world can tolerate only so many geniuses for exactly this reason). As you mentioned, and I think we can agree, that we HOPE human morality will prevent the days of "1984" from ever becoming reality. I guess I'm using human morality as the yardstick by which we measure sanity.

Thanks for the additional insight on the USSR. I wonder how many people at that time actually beleived what they were seeing, or didn't really believe it but felt powerless to change it, like Winston?

[darwin]

I am not sure if my answer is helpfull at all, but I have multiple ideas. First, the book could be used as a way of being the counter to INGSOC, like if you know what you are not, then it could help you deside who you are. Second, Orwell could have added it as a way of explaining how the government was run. The section of the book goes farther into the society than otherwise possible in teh rest of the story. You cannot just randomly start explaining how everything works, nor could you expain everything throughout the book. The Brotherhoods book, was a way for him to fully explain what kind of society Winston was living in. Third, the book is a mockery of any and all rebels. The book is saying that the Party has so much contol, that they even contol the rebelion.
Just my thoughts.

[King of Frogs]

Ok, guys just to rock the boat a bit - how do we know that O'Brien is telling the truth (or his version of it) when he claims to have co-written The Book? How do we know that he is just saying it to upset Winston's veiw of the world and reinforce the idea of complete Party control?

In terms of the insanity question, it is a difficult one, but my opinion is that (from a psychological point of veiw) O'Brien is psychotic; he is fanatical, he has no qualms about killing and torturing in the name of his "greater good" and he fails to see the contradictions in his thinking. The interesting part is that he has been trained and has trained himself to enter this mental state, rather than it coming like a disease, it has been artifically implanted. Just my theory though, make of it what you will.

[Coco]

I think the purpose of the book is twofold: to help train new Inner Party members, and to entrap people like Winston. Like Charrington's shop, the book is set up to lure thoughtcriminals; their curiosity itself is thoughtcrime, and the Party can find the criminals quite easily. After Winston has read the book, O'Brien does not have to take time to explain all the principles in it.

Of course, Orwell also needs to explain INGSOC to his readers, and the book is a vehicle for this. Since the novel is written from Winston's point of view, he cannot tell us these things himself; Orwell speaks to Winston (and hence to us) through the book.

[The Atheist]

Nice to see lots of differring opinion, but I think you're missing some things in your analyses:


I am not sure if my answer is helpfull at all, but I have multiple ideas. First, the book could be used as a way of being the counter to INGSOC, like if you know what you are not, then it could help you deside who you are.

In a normal world that could happen, in Oceania, never. It's clear that the book is a fabrication by The Party and nobody gets to read it until they've been marked for arrest. By that stage, what W&J think is irrelevant, they are going to Room 101 to be re-programmed.


Second, Orwell could have added it as a way of explaining how the government was run. The section of the book goes farther into the society than otherwise possible in teh rest of the story. You cannot just randomly start explaining how everything works, nor could you expain everything throughout the book. The Brotherhoods book, was a way for him to fully explain what kind of society Winston was living in.

That's partly true, but he used the appendix for explaining Newspeak and could easily have added "Goldstein's book" there - it's ready-made as an appendix. The problem is that the way The Party rules isn't of crucial essence to the story. W&J had to read it, to see a version of the truth, but even more impotantly, to increase their feeling of usefulness and brotherhood, only to ensure the furthest fall when taken to the Ministry of Truth.


Ok, guys just to rock the boat a bit - how do we know that O'Brien is telling the truth (or his version of it) when he claims to have co-written The Book? How do we know that he is just saying it to upset Winston's veiw of the world and reinforce the idea of complete Party control?

Good point, because as O'Brien himself admits, he can simultaneously believe that he wrote it and know that he didn't. That O'Brien wrote it fits, though. He may have even written is especially for W&J.


In terms of the insanity question, it is a difficult one, but my opinion is that (from a psychological point of veiw) O'Brien is psychotic; he is fanatical, he has no qualms about killing and torturing in the name of his "greater good" and he fails to see the contradictions in his thinking. The interesting part is that he has been trained and has trained himself to enter this mental state, rather than it coming like a disease, it has been artifically implanted. Just my theory though, make of it what you will.

As long as you see O'Brien's actions as diseased, (and they are by our standards) you're quite right, O'Brien's doublethink allows him to do his job regardless of his own inner feelings.

In terms of insanity, though, the problem is that his actions aren't just condoned by The Party, they're essential to its survival. Once one has bought into it to the extent of Inner Party membership, he's just following the rule-book. O'Brien is no more insane than Winston.


I think the purpose of the book is twofold: to help train new Inner Party members, and to entrap people like Winston. Like Charrington's shop, the book is set up to lure thoughtcriminals; their curiosity itself is thoughtcrime, and the Party can find the criminals quite easily. After Winston has read the book, O'Brien does not have to take time to explain all the principles in it.

I think you've missed a very important point - one cannot "become" an Inner Party member, they would be born into it only. As a result, there aren't really any "new" members, because they would all have grown up in doublethink, so it wouldn't teach them anything at all.

The book certainly doesn't lure them, it's far too late by then.

One interesting point you raise is the curiosity shop. Did Winston attract the Thought Police by going there the first time? Did the shop only exist to lure him to it? Was the shop a constant means of entrapment? Personally, I suspect that the shop was placed there specifically for Winston..

[bazarov]

One interesting point you raise is the curiosity shop. Did Winston attract the Thought Police by going there the first time? Did the shop only exist to lure him to it? Was the shop a constant means of entrapment? Personally, I suspect that the shop was placed there specifically for Winston..

That would mean that they knew exactly what was happening in his head even before his revolution started. They could guess his moves without actually knowing him. Let's open shop, Winston will surely visit it!
I find that hard to believe; if they knew from the beginning who was good and who had some doubts, then they could just take those others proles and reintegrate them or just kill them.

[kandaurov]

I wouldn't say specifically for Winston, but I think it was indeed a snare for whoever sought refuge from the Party, and Winston was unfortunate enough to fall for it. I wouldn't rule out The Atheist's theory, though, seems plausible enough that Winston's downfall was meticulously arranged by outer entities.

As for knowing exactly what happens in Winston's head: if the Party can induce dreams into its members, I'd say that they pretty much control their minds...

[The Atheist]

That would mean that they knew exactly what was happening in his head even before his revolution started. They could guess his moves without actually knowing him. Let's open shop, Winston will surely visit it!
I find that hard to believe; if they knew from the beginning who was good and who had some doubts, then they could just take those others proles and reintegrate them or just kill them.

No, I don't think it needs to go back that far, but if say, The Party had suspected Winston for five or ten years before 1984, it would have been relatively easy to create an old shop near to where he's likely to roam.

I don't necessarily think it was there specifically for Winston, but it equally could have been. How many other Outer Party members would have dared to enter the shop?

[bazarov]

No, I don't think it needs to go back that far, but if say, The Party had suspected Winston for five or ten years before 1984, it would have been relatively easy to create an old shop near to where he's likely to roam.

I don't necessarily think it was there specifically for Winston, but it equally could have been. How many other Outer Party members would have dared to enter the shop?

In my opinion, it's too expensive in every way to hold a store for many years just because of a suspicion in one member and a hope he'll come to shop; or even more, a hope that he won't visit it.
Also, if they are denying history, why are they opening shop? So everyone can remember that actually once things were much different? Cervantes once said: If you want to keep secret, then you firstly have to keep it from your self. This was the way of showing to everyone that there was something before, and that was something that nobody needed to know.
Proles maybe wouldn't notice the shop,( because what's the purpose of it when you know you can't afford nothing from it), but other Party members would, so maybe someone else like Winston would appear with his doubts and suspicions? I know, that was the purpose of shop, but it's totally irational.
Without those shops, books etc. in, let's say 70-80 years, they could totally erase idea of history from everyone; young Party members and Proles. And they would finally get their great faithful society.

[bazarov]

Alan, I am waiting for your response:)

[braniac2read]

you guys seem so smart and if anyone of you can answer this please help. on page 238 o'brien says thet he had whent to the minustry of love before. he tells winston or winston knows that if he gets out of the minustry he'll die if he loves big brother because they wont kill you or shoot you knowing you didnt love him. now if o'brien says that big bro is good or whatever then why didnt he die? maybe he doesnt love him really. and maybe that just means the government isnt being fair at all. this is kind o f confusin though can you help me

[bazarov]

Link, please; I don't understand you very well, sorry.

[The Atheist]

Alan, I am waiting for your response:)

Sorry mate! I missed your response, here we go:


In my opinion, it's too expensive in every way to hold a store for many years just because of a suspicion in one member and a hope he'll come to shop; or even more, a hope that he won't visit it.

Fair point, although the economic reason wouldn't, I suspect, be much of an issue to The Party.

We have no idea how long the shop had been there for, although Winston seemed to have been looking in the window long before he went there. Either way, the shop was there, and whether to entrap members in general or Winston in particular, it served its purpose in catching W&J. The shop must have been pretty well set up for entrapment, with the room upstairs having a cunningly concealed telescreen.


Also, if they are denying history, why are they opening shop? So everyone can remember that actually once things were much different? Cervantes once said: If you want to keep secret, then you firstly have to keep it from your self. This was the way of showing to everyone that there was something before, and that was something that nobody needed to know.

I guess that's one of the reasons Orwell took so long to explain Doublethink. The shop was clearly there for all and sundry to see. The proles mattered no more to The Party than do sheep to our governments - in fact, probably even less than sheep. Sheep are seen as an economic asset, the proles less so. They were an inexhaustible supply of labour, kept under such poverty that a never-ending queue of them would form for whatever manual labour was required at the time. Accordingly, what the proles did or didn't think about the past is irrelevant.

The location of the shop was such that an Outer party member wasn't barred from being there, but a goodthinkful party member wouldn't have ventured there. If he did, by accident, then seeing the artifacts, he would just accept, through doublethink, that they are works of art designed to look old, but were the business of proles only, so who cares?


Proles maybe wouldn't notice the shop,( because what's the purpose of it when you know you can't afford nothing from it), but other Party members would, so maybe someone else like Winston would appear with his doubts and suspicions? I know, that was the purpose of shop, but it's totally irational.

It does seem irrational, but I've yet to find any place where Orwell had an irrational moment in his stories. Given that newspapers were moving towards solely Newspeak, it does seem contradictory to have a curiosity shop with reminders of the past. I can only surmise that that's actually part of the reason - Party members of Winston's age or older would be able to remember "before the revolution". If those Party members hadn't trained themselves in goodthinkfulness and doublethink, they could, like Winston, be attracted to those mementos of times past and allowed themselves to be entrapped by the Thought Police.


Without those shops, books etc. in, let's say 70-80 years, they could totally erase idea of history from everyone; young Party members and Proles. And they would finally get their great faithful society.

It's a bit like O'Brien's "because we can" speech to Winston. "Why didn't they just shoot me?" speculates Winston, to be told that to preserve the purity of The Party (and, I think, to preserve its divine status), it was necessary to not just identify, but also re-program dissenters. Reinforcing doublethink, reinforcing the absolute power of the party - absolute power corrupts absolutely. Having seen the results - and still seeing daily - the results of non-absolute power, are you convinced that absolute power couldn't be that arrogant? To remove the "truth cannot contradict truth" tenet of mankind? It's the same vein as O'Brien determined to make Winston not just say that 2+2=5, but actually see that 2+2=5.

Another way of looking at it is that even the Thought Police would never be able to remove antique artifacts from every prole home, so there would always be cases of antiques turning up. Far better all Party members are trained in doublethink sufficiently to avoid seeing them than have to track down and re-program people who asked questions because they saw something unique in their experience.

I think this is one of the things I find most interesting about 1984, Orwell's death left so many unanswered questions that we can debate these things and never know what he thought. I think he'd answered a lot of questions about his earlier works through his essays and public views, but 1984 never had that chance. Dylan Thomas' Under Milkwood is another rare gem like that.

[The Atheist]

you guys seem so smart and if anyone of you can answer this please help. on page 238 o'brien says thet he had whent to the minustry of love before. he tells winston or winston knows that if he gets out of the minustry he'll die if he loves big brother because they wont kill you or shoot you knowing you didnt love him. now if o'brien says that big bro is good or whatever then why didnt he die? maybe he doesnt love him really. and maybe that just means the government isnt being fair at all. this is kind o f confusin though can you help me

I think I know what you mean - you're wondering why Winston is actually still alive until the end of the book, even though O'Brien has assured him that he'll die?

It's more of what I just said to Baz - the Party is so secure that it controls the past, future and present that its arrogance borders on insanity; a collective disorder of all Inner Party members, I suppose. It is so arrogant that any impurity is disallowed. To let Winston die before he had fully accepted his actual love for Big Brother would be to allow a tiny speck of unorthodoxy to remain unchanged. That's why the last sentence of each of the final two paragraphs finish like this:


The long-hoped-for bullet was entering his brain.

He loved Big Brother.

From that second on, Winston's life is over. His life will be forfeit to The Party, as O'Brien intimated, between that second and his old age. That he will die is not in doubt - again, the very orthodoxy of The Party is threatened if Winston isn't killed, so I always like to think the end will be sooner rather than later, in case an accident robs The Party of its rightful fruit.

I also get the impression that Winston longs for the bullet to wipe out his memories of unorthodoxy now that he loves Big Brother unconditionally.

[bazarov]

[QUOTE]Fair point, although the economic reason wouldn't, I suspect, be much of an issue to The Party.

Well, economy wasn't primary to them, I know; I didn't mean it in that way.



We have no idea how long the shop had been there for, although Winston seemed to have been looking in the window long before he went there. Either way, the shop was there, and whether to entrap members in general or Winston in particular, it served its purpose in catching W&J. The shop must have been pretty well set up for entrapment, with the room upstairs having a cunningly concealed telescreen.
I guess that's one of the reasons Orwell took so long to explain Doublethink. The shop was clearly there for all and sundry to see. The proles mattered no more to The Party than do sheep to our governments - in fact, probably even less than sheep. Sheep are seen as an economic asset, the proles less so. They were an inexhaustible supply of labour, kept under such poverty that a never-ending queue of them would form for whatever manual labour was required at the time. Accordingly, what the proles did or didn't think about the past is irrelevant.

Yes, we agree in that.


The location of the shop was such that an Outer party member wasn't barred from being there, but a goodthinkful party member wouldn't have ventured there. If he did, by accident, then seeing the artifacts, he would just accept, through doublethink, that they are works of art designed to look old, but were the business of proles only, so who cares?

They couldn't be all that stupid! Actually, they were...Sometimes I ask myself how could somebody that stupid ruling everyone.




It's a bit like O'Brien's "because we can" speech to Winston. "Why didn't they just shoot me?" speculates Winston, to be told that to preserve the purity of The Party (and, I think, to preserve its divine status), it was necessary to not just identify, but also re-program dissenters. Reinforcing doublethink, reinforcing the absolute power of the party - absolute power corrupts absolutely. Having seen the results - and still seeing daily - the results of non-absolute power, are you convinced that absolute power couldn't be that arrogant? To remove the "truth cannot contradict truth" tenet of mankind? It's the same vein as O'Brien determined to make Winston not just say that 2+2=5, but actually see that 2+2=5.


So something like...If they did shoot him, they would show he was a dangerous to them, and nobody is that dangerous, nobody can harm Party. Reprograming him is their great victory; not that he stopped to suspect, now he is a greatly faithful member?

[bushed]

I've always thought that it wasn't that W&J, in particular, were guilty of crimes and therefore were sucked up, chewed over, then spat out by the all powerful party. They were picked at random as the party knows everyone is guilty. Much like original sin. The party is exercising power for the sake of power and therefore who it is exercised upon matters not. As Bazarov notes above if they were actually thought of as dangerous, even of special interest, to the party that would be weakness - so surely the party shows them no particularly special treatment. My guess is the book and the antique store are part of a set of props used ad infinitum.

[The Atheist]

So something like...If they did shoot him, they would show he was a dangerous to them, and nobody is that dangerous, nobody can harm Party. Reprograming him is their great victory; not that he stopped to suspect, now he is a greatly faithful member?

Yep, that's pretty much it, complete domination, all traces of unorthodoxy expunged.