It is time I set myself on fire-

[Countess]

For some time I have existed under the delusion that what I write is art, and this ruse has provided some justification for my taking my next breath, but clearly I see I have been grossly in error.

Having read some of the comments on *the other site* I realize I have missed the entire boat. The foreshadowing /apotheosis of Nate is interpreted as merely a random occurance with no relevance in the book. The characters don't make sense to anyone; they spend far too much time talking at tea-parties/balls and raves (ala Wilde/Dostoesky) than they do beating each other's brains out. Jules's thought processes are extraneous and irrelevant.

So, with veil removed from my eyes, I see lucidily the utter futility and waste of words that I have been pounding out at my computer. Perhaps it is time to come to grips with the fact that fancying myself as a writer is just that - fancy. I am something else. Something unrecognizable and superfluous.

And it feels so hollow, empty and meaningless to be nothing.

Nobody

[B-Mental]

Ahhh Countess...I feel your pain. I wish there was someway to cheer you up. You need to put this behind you or it will affect your writing. I think all writers take criticism harshly. This depression you are feeling is natural, but its how you pick yourself up that will give you character. cliche? Maybe, but a truth still. Good luck and peace.

[EAP]

You can start with being a little less melodramatic? No?

There are only two practical ways most writers can deal with criticism: try to satisfy everybody and end up satisfying none or develop a thick skin, ignore whatever the hell the critics are spouting and write to satisfy themselves/stroke their egoes - almost all criticism does have a grain of truth in it, though, and the later approach doesn't leave any room for improvement; the more balanced approach, of course, is the most difficult one to take.

Spend some 'me' time, listen to some Linkin Park and My Chemical Romance and think the morosest thoughts you can think, it'll probably help.

[Asa Adams]

You can start with being a little less melodramatic? No?

Spend some 'me' time, listen to some Linkin Park and My Chemical Romance and think the morosest thoughts you can think, it'll probably help.

That makes little sense. How Non-Melodramatic can you get by listening to them?

Relax. Writing is tough. Shed this idea of deconstructive criticism from your mind. Grow some armour. It is within yourself these words erupt. That is all that matters. Trust your wits, and beauty will come of it.

[aeroport]

For some time I have existed under the delusion that what I write is art, and this ruse has provided some justification for my taking my next breath, but clearly I see I have been grossly in error.


It is difficult to err in a case of almost total subjectivity.
May I ask what is meant by "*the other site*"? It seems I am not familiar with this crazy LitNet slang...
Be at ease, Countess. And keep writing. That is the important thing. Never stop writing.

[Shannanigan]

Bah! The fools simply lack the intellectual depth to comprehend your elaborate design...

on a more serious note, yes, it's harsh to have your efforts shown as futile, but you live and learn and grow from it all. It'll be ok...

[grace86]

If someone were to come up to me and tell me they do not like the way I sing, I would tell them that they are very welcome to get up on the stage and do a better job. Harsh...maybe...but I never see any of those people who heartlessly criticize me go up there the next Sunday.

If what you are receiving from this "other site" is just pure garbage and insult....don't worry about it. We've all heard the phrase about opinions....;)

I do agree that some criticism is based off of something that could be learned though.

Take some time to yourself. Relax. And then when you are ready to write again, think about those criticisms and if any of them were actually valid. Just because some people don't understand doesn't mean what you've written needs to be burned.

We don't all understand Pynchon (some people don't get Dr. Suess :D ). Some people just won't get what you write...you can't make everyone happy, so don't keep everyone else's opinions in your heart when you write - you aren't writing for them.

[SleepyWitch]

hey Countess, don't give up.
i liked what i've read of your Jules novel and actually one of the things i liked best was that the characters talk so much!!! i mean, why would i want to read about people who don't talk???? what else should they do?

i don't think they should be beating each others brains out, it wouldn't make sense. your characters are very sophisticated and talking is exactly what sophisticated people do, even when they have conflicts.. they will pretend nothing's wrong, do small talk or beat about the bush, maybe, but they definitely won't freak out and 'beat each others' brains out'

I've still got it saved on my hard disk somewhere. if i can find the time, I'll read some more of it one of these days...

i second what the others said, most criticism has a grain of truth in it and you should think about it, but ultimately if you feel that what you wrote is somehow 'true' that's all that counts.

[Asa Adams]

If someone were to come up to me and tell me they do not like the way I sing, I would tell them that they are very welcome to get up on the stage and do a better job. Harsh...maybe...but I never see any of those people who heartlessly criticize me go up there the next Sunday.


Your Soul is so beautiful, Grace. There needs to be more little gracies out there!! :blush: :)

[Scheherazade]

If someone were to come up to me and tell me they do not like the way I sing, I would tell them that they are very welcome to get up on the stage and do a better job. Harsh...maybe...but I never see any of those people who heartlessly criticize me go up there the next Sunday.Even though I agree that some people might be unnecessarily harsh while criticising others, I somewhat disagree with the above attitude as well.

One does not need to be able lay eggs to be able to tell a good omelette. Very few of us here can write good poetry or prose, however, we are all still entitled to our opinions what makes a good poem or story. And despite the differences in our tastes, there are certain areas that almost all of us agree (Eg, most of us enjoy reading Sonnet 18). Should we not be critical of Woolf or Dickens or Faulkner because they might also say 'You write a novel yourself then!'

Or do we actually think that we can do 'better' than those we are critical of? I am not a fan of Archer but I do not think I can write a novel myself (as popular as his or not).

Countess> I am really sorry to hear that your feelings are hurt by some of the criticism you have received. I really wish some people were more careful in choosing their words (we witness it often here as well) and keep in mind that criticism is meant to be constructive; however, like EAP said, try to get something out of them and move on. Even the most popular authors were not off to an easy start and they got harsh comments while they had established themselves as 'authors'.

As far as I am aware, you receive plenty of encouraging feedback from your posts here. :)

[Virgil]

For some time I have existed under the delusion that what I write is art, and this ruse has provided some justification for my taking my next breath, but clearly I see I have been grossly in error.


Oh don't despair Countess. Art is hard work. I've never read through your entire novel, but what I have read seemed good. In the end, unless we have to earn a living by it (and then God help us), we create art for ourselves. The greatest pleasure I have ever had is not when someone likes my work (and I'm in no way under delusion that I'm a writer) but when I consider it perfect. I'd rather be satisfied on something I wrote and everyone else criticisize it than everyone praise it and have the nagging feeling I didn't do it right. The feeling I strive for is the same feeling that Lily Briscoe has at the end of Virginia Woolf's To The Lighthouse when she finally completes her painting that she had started many years before and realizes that now she's got it right. She satisfactorily says something like, "it is done."

The world and time will determine how great or good it is, but then we will be long gone. So do it for your enjoyment. And please no thought to ending one's life, even if it's tongue in cheek.

[Countess]

Of course you all are right; constructive criticism has a grain of truth to it, but to suggest Jules be more "subtle" - well, he's about as subtle as a train wreck. I would be writing an entirely different book if Jules were subtle, and if I focused more on the romantic overtures of Ana and Jules (then it would be Nicolas Sparks).

Everyone missed the foreshadowing and symbolism in the first part. No one wanted to understand the psyche of the characters either.

Put it this way, a story about a woman who broke her thumb and might not be able to participate in a National Marble Contest has a higher rating than my book.

When I'm 18 I'm moving somewhere else, maybe the UK or New Zealand. Lots of UK people understand what I write, perhaps because they grew up on Wilde and the Russian novelists.

God help America when marble contests are leading in the novel competition.

Thank you all for your support, btw. You are wonderful (blows kisses to each and every one of you.)

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

your welcome to move to Newcastle. i think they'd like you.

[Virgil]

Of course you all are right; constructive criticism has a grain of truth to it, but to suggest Jules be more "subtle" - well, he's about as subtle as a train wreck. I would be writing an entirely different book if Jules were subtle, and if I focused more on the romantic overtures of Ana and Jules (then it would be Nicolas Sparks).

Everyone missed the foreshadowing and symbolism in the first part. No one wanted to understand the psyche of the characters either.

Put it this way, a story about a woman who broke her thumb and might not be able to participate in a National Marble Contest has a higher rating than my book.

When I'm 18 I'm moving somewhere else, maybe the UK or New Zealand. Lots of UK people understand what I write, perhaps because they grew up on Wilde and the Russian novelists.

God help America when marble contests are leading in the novel competition.

Thank you all for your support, btw. You are wonderful (blows kisses to each and every one of you.)

You're not 18 yet? Wow, you are a fine writer for your age. You will be outstanding some day. :thumbs_up

[grace86]

Even though I agree that some people might be unnecessarily harsh while criticising others, I somewhat disagree with the above attitude as well.

One does not need to be able lay eggs to be able to tell a good omelette. Very few of us here can write good poetry or prose, however, we are all still entitled to our opinions what makes a good poem or story. And despite the differences in our tastes, there are certain areas that almost all of us agree (Eg, most of us enjoy reading Sonnet 18). Should we not be critical of Woolf or Dickens or Faulkner because they might also say 'You write a novel yourself then!'

Or do we actually think that we can do 'better' than those we are critical of? I am not a fan of Archer but I do not think I can write a novel myself (as popular as his or not).



I was not referring to constructive criticism. If someone has a recommendation on how I could improve my singing, or writing, or whatever, I would give them my ear - I would not be bull headed and tell them to do a better job.

But the case in which I would tell them to do a better job was if their criticism had no foundation other than to be rude.

Sorry if I was not clear.

[Riesa]

countess....not yet 18! wow. someone wise once said to me... "writing chooses us, that's the point. nobody said this was going to be easy. that's why it's lifelong process, no?" I said "it's not easy, it's a pain-wracked coughing up of slimy innards no one wants to see" and yet those wise words have stuck with me, and I continue to cough it up, as will you.

[johnA.B.C.Smith]

well put riesa.you must know some really wise people

[SleepyWitch]

whaaaaat? you're not 18 yet???? i thought you were 30-ish! seriously, i'm not lying. oops, that wasn't a very charming compliment, was it?

[Virgil]

whaaaaat? you're not 18 yet???? i thought you were 30-ish! seriously, i'm not lying. oops, that wasn't a very charming compliment, was it?

That's exactly what i thought too. And there's nothing wrong with being thirty ;) or older. :p :p

[Countess]

That's exactly what i thought too. And there's nothing wrong with being thirty ;) or older. :p :p


Well I feel retarded now. I meant when my son turns 18. I am, of course, old as dirt. (--;

Maybe some wishful thinking went into that paragraph.

Yes, writing choses us; at 16 I prayed to God for the ability to write. Now I wonder why he bequeathed such a gift on such an embecile as myself.

He should've given it to the guy who writes about marble competitions. At least that way it wouldn't be wasted on someone who has already lost her marbles.

[EAP]

That makes little sense. How Non-Melodramatic can you get by listening to them?

You missed the point.

[Walter]

Oh countess, countess!
Please don't even think of burning yourself up in any way shape or form, or even a single page of your work. You have gained so much from the effort that you have invested so far, that you can't even begin to imagine it. You will go forward with that investment, maybe on the same track, maybe a different track, and you will find the places where you want to go. Guaranteed! Not a moment of your life will have been wasted. I say that as a complete non-writer, but with enough gray hair and years behind me to claim some wisdom. So please, please, no despair! That will do you in faster than anything, faster than your own hand, faster even than your worst critics' words, faster even than their worst insults.
So now, you would like someone to read your work sympathetically? Point me at it!
But you have to promise. No matches. :)
Sincerely!

[Countess]

Oh countess, countess!
Please don't even think of burning yourself up in any way shape or form, or even a single page of your work. You have gained so much from the effort that you have invested so far, that you can't even begin to imagine it. You will go forward with that investment, maybe on the same track, maybe a different track, and you will find the places where you want to go. Guaranteed! Not a moment of your life will have been wasted. I say that as a complete non-writer, but with enough gray hair and years behind me to claim some wisdom. So please, please, no despair! That will do you in faster than anything, faster than your own hand, faster even than your worst critics' words, faster even than their worst insults.
So now, you would like someone to read your work sympathetically? Point me at it!
But you have to promise. No matches. :)
Sincerely!
Thanks Walter. I have a diabolical history of ending my life and one of my fantasies is setting myself on fire outside the white house after posting my own "99 theses" on the White House fence. One day I will be institutionalized or seal my fate by ramming my car at 60 mph into a tree - if I don't die of drug addiction first.

I have decided to quit writing, however. It if is useless, then it has no place in the world. Maybe I was never intended to write - maybe it was simply a dream I wished would come true.

Thanks for the encouragement, however.

[Walter]

I have decided to quit writing, however. It if is useless, then it has no place in the world. Maybe I was never intended to write - maybe it was simply a dream I wished would come true.

Thanks for the encouragement, however.
I knew a man who used to say that dreams are fine things to have. The next steps are to build foundations under them to hold them up and then walls and rooves to make them come true.

"Decided to quit writing" sounds so final. Please allow some wiggle room.
"If it is useless" begins with an "if." Please hold open the thought of the alternative, that it is not useless.
"Maybe" is not a decision. Because maybe you were. You hold the answer to that outcome.

Please believe and think positively, is what I am trying to get across.

And you're really not gonna let me read anything?

[plainjane]

I have decided to quit writing, however. It if is useless, then it has no place in the world. Maybe I was never intended to write - maybe it was simply a dream I wished would come true.

Thanks for the encouragement, however.


I don't think it is possible to quit writing....it's something that has to come out, a compulsion if you will, and never useless. So you may decide in your head to quit writing, but your heart will propel you forward and make you write. Let it out. Write. Best purge ever.

And our marbles have a way of rolling back to us. :D

[Countess]

Writing is a compulsion, isn't it? For better or worse.

Walter, here's the thread to the book that everyone at gather.com thinks sucks or they don't understand it: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118

[Walter]

Writing is a compulsion, isn't it? For better or worse.

Walter, here's the thread to the book that everyone at gather.com thinks sucks or they don't understand it: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14118

Many thanks for your trust! Now I'll do some interesting reading I am sure and have something to say in response. Have no fear. :)
Again thanks.

[mtpspur]

I've read the introduction of Jules interview and thought it well put together. If this is sample I think you have an eye for detail and an ability to focus the reader's attention on the subject matter.

The problem with listening to critics on a forum is that you don't really know if the evaluation of your talent is coming from a source that has your best interests at heart or not. Personally I can't write a lick but I know what I like. That in no way means I know everything. For instance I know Hemingway is a great writer but personally I can't stomach him. Guess what --Hemingway is still a great writer and by God's grace you have a talent that can either grow as you mature or you can let the wookie win and fret the rest of your life away pondering. I mean this with respect and only with a desire that you continue on the path your heart sets you (by the grace of God that is.)

Rich (still poor financially though)

[Walter]

I'm inclined to echo mtpspur, even before I start reading.

[Countess]

Mad, bad and dangerous to know

That was said of Lord Byron, wasn't it by some countess? What a fine male specimen he was, much like Christopher Marlowe - too bad his lifestyle lead to an early death. "She walks in beauty" is one of the best poems ever written in my estimation.

[Countess]

For iinstance I know Hemingway is a great writer but personally I can't stomach him. Rich (still poor financially though)

See, like you, I can recognize talent in those whose tastes do not lie along my lines. Billy Joel is talented, so is Genesis and Phil Collins, although I don't own any of their music. I can recognize genius, even if it isn't in my personal genre.

Hemingway was brilliant; so was Faulkner although I don't ascribe to their particular style of writing. I may not care for a writer's material, but I recognise the inherent brilliance when I see it.

It seems that many people are limited to what they like versus what they don't like, and if they don't like it, it's bunk.

Perhaps people here at online-literature are more open-minded, and can appreciate work they don't care for, when they realize it is written well (not that I consider myself a member of the good writers).

Perhaps that is the difference between literary majors/philosophers and pop fiction readers. I don't know - I'm just trying to explain the descrepancy between people here and people there.

Thanks Walter et al.

[aeroport]

Perhaps people here at online-literature are more open-minded,
Infinitely.



(not that I consider myself a member of the good writers).

But you must! One must recognize one's worth if one wishes others to.

[Asa Adams]

keep in mind that criticism is meant to be constructive; however, like EAP

Most criticism nowadays is meant for entertainment. Hardly construtive if you ask me.

[Walter]

Many thanks for your trust! Now I'll do some interesting reading I am sure and have something to say in response. Have no fear. :)
Again thanks.

Countess,

As promised, here I am again.
I have started reading "The Life and Times of Jules Vercini" and I will share with you my reactions so far.

First of all, you can write, and one day you will succeed at it in some way shape or form. Just now, you may suddenly not like what you have written, and we'll get to that in a minute. But you can clearly write and your desire to stop is the worst thing I can possibly imagine.

Second of all, I am not a writer and could not possibly have created or written what you have accomplished already. I will not presume to offer any comments on how you should write your story. My advice would be second hand at best. You should write your story as you see it.

Third, though, I am a reader and I am continuing to read what you have posted. For the moment, let that suffice as an indication of my considerably readerly degree of interest in what you have created so far.

I will however offer some advice of a more general nature.

I will begin by saying I am a project manager for computer software design and development, and writing software has quite a bit in common with what you are trying to accomplish, even though light-years apart in terms of content, so please take no offense if I mention both in the same breath.

At root, when one tackles a large project, one has to write a complicated piece of work, get all the parts to work together and finally have the completed thing work well as a whole. The result finally has to accomplish what you want it to do and there are many issues to be faced and sub-problems to be worked out. And when all, is said and done, many ideas for how it might have been done better will have occurred along the way, which frequently leads to the only slightly cynical saying, "Write it twice; throw the first one away."

I am not for a moment suggesting throwing away what you have done. In fact quite the opposite.

The important thing is to get it done once, but get it done, complete and working. After that one can think about what to do next, whether to move on to the next project, or rework what you have done, or start again and do it a second time better -- whatever seems sensible, but only after once completing it a first time.

In your case the moral should be obvious.

I strongly, very strongly, suggest that you complete the novel according to the vision you originally had, putting aside as well as you can any advice that you can't accept for whatever reason. If some suggestions come your way that you feel are constructive and helpful, then by all means use them, but the important thing is to get it done. Completely done. Once, and your way. At that point you will have an enormous accomplishment in hand and will feel considerably better about yourself. Then you can decide where to go from there.

I would also strongly suggest you absolutely not abandon what you have in order to start on something else. Then you will have two incomplete stories on your hands, and still no completed accomplishment.

So finish it, and don't think for a moment about abandoning writing! And please put your own negative thoughts behind you. They are only destructive and serve no good purpose.

That's my pep talk for you and I really wish you would heed it.
I speak from experience, albeit of a different kind.

With sincerest and very best wishes for your success,
Walter

[Countess]

Well Walter, I find this all very synchronous because before I was laid off I was a process manager for technical data at an IT company. I also wrote Marketing Material for PowerPC Microelectronics at IBM. However, these are not my pride and joy, obviously, although they were published and sent to hundreds of people - LOL.
So funny that you're a project manager. Seems we have a common background - isn't it strange how life works sometimes?
Thanks for all your kindness.

[Walter]

Well Walter, I find this all very synchronous because before I was laid off I was a process manager for technical data at an IT company. I also wrote Marketing Material for PowerPC Microelectronics at IBM. However, these are not my pride and joy, obviously, although they were published and sent to hundreds of people - LOL.
So funny that you're a project manager. Seems we have a common background - isn't it strange how life works sometimes?
Thanks for all your kindness.
Well now, isn't that funny!
I hope then that some of what I wrote has the ring of truth for you.
Like you, it would seem, I also have done my fair share of writing in my position, although we both recognize that it is not 'writing' in the sense we are using the word here. :rolleyes: :nod:

[plainjane]

Countess,
I've read your posts/novel, and hope you don't give up on it! Your writing certainly is well worth pursuing by all means, and I hope you will. You must finish. Talent is not to be wasted.

[Countess]

I love you all. Kisses. I just felt like telling you that - your encouragement means the world to me.

[SleepyWitch]

hey Countess,
I've finally finished reading all the chapters you posted (after i started reading them last autumn and took a break;)) and have given you some feedback in the original thread. hope it helps
i still like your story a lot and think you should definitely finish it.