College degree or private study??

[daveathome1]

Hello to all
I have just joined and was wondering what some of you thought about the whole self learning idea as opposed to going to college? I am a self learner and have never been to college but was thinking of doing a Philosophy course. My problem is that anytime I have started a course my daily work gets really busy and I fall behind in the course. This has the effect of turning what should be a joy into a chore and you start to resent the course.
The other alternative is to use a self directed form of study which is what I am doing now(studying the Phaedo by Plato). This is great for not putting pressure on you and allowing you to linger over the parts that are really interesting(or hard to follow!!) but it lacks the interaction with others that you get if you were doing a formal course.
Any thoughts anybody?
Why do a course?
Why do we seek external recognition for our study(unless for work related courses of course!)
Does the formal course and the aim of a qualification corrupt the joy of learning or does it give the necessary "push" to your study?
Does studying Philosophy as a course sever it from your everyday life ie it becomes a "subject" to master as opposed to a way of living?
Thanks for listening and any ideas would be appreciated!!

[Adudaewen]

Hmm, that is a good question. I would have to say with a topic like Philosophy especially, I would personally prefer to study in a class. What is lacking in self study, as you said is the interaction with others. Grades don't really matter when it comes to Philosophy, so dont look at it as though you are seeking acknowlegment for your studies. I think what is more important is to interact with other people who have different perspectives than you, to be exposed to the interpretations of people wholly different than you are. I think that pushes philosophy to a higher level, and makes it easier to understand. The discussion is what I think I would miss in a self study forum. This is of course just my opinion. :)

[Newcomer]

That depends on the individual. If 'the joy of learning' and the ability to dwell on a particular, peruse an independent idea is of importance, then you have answered your own question. While the exchange of ideas is precious, you will probably be disappointed in finding a peer.
Have you looked into a lecture series such as: http://www.teach12.com/store/courses.asp?t=&sl=&s=907&sbj=Philosophy%20and%20Intellectual%20History&fMode=s, this might give you the formal structure of a college course, references, while allowing the flexibility of self study. You could transfer the material to an Ipod and listen, review, while doing the daily routine.

[Virgil]

First Dave, welcome to lit net. I think if you have an interest in literature of any kind, you will enjoy this forum.

As to your question, I don't know how old you are or if you have a college degree already or if you currently have a good job. First and foremost one needs a good job. And it's very hard to get a good job without a college degree these days. So that has to be your first priority.

Now after I graduated college and got a job, I did go at night for a master's degree in english. Was it worth it? I don't know. I did learn a lot, but could have I learned it on my own? Some yes, some no. But on the other hand they teach you a lot of junk, if you ask me, like deconstruction (and other modern critical theory) and stuff like that. That's pretty much a waste of time which could have been better spent reading good literature.

So to summarize, college will do two things for you:
1) get you degree for a good job
2) teach you to teach yourself

Hope that helps.

[Matrim Cuathon]

it basically works like virgil said. in modern society a decent life is very expensive. the course are for if you think you might want to teach or have some occupation related to philosophy. businesses are lazy. a degree says you are qualified where as in the past, you might just work and if you sucked you would get fired. it simpler for employers to have a standardized system. a degree is like a letter of recommendation, giving the emplyoer proof that you can do the job.
so classes arent to teach you stuff for fun, but to get you a good job and have you up at the same level as others.

[Asa Adams]

Hello to all
I have just joined and was wondering what some of you thought about the whole self learning idea as opposed to going to college? I am a self learner and have never been to college but was thinking of doing a Philosophy course. My problem is that anytime I have started a course my daily work gets really busy and I fall behind in the course. This has the effect of turning what should be a joy into a chore and you start to resent the course.
The other alternative is to use a self directed form of study which is what I am doing now(studying the Phaedo by Plato). This is great for not putting pressure on you and allowing you to linger over the parts that are really interesting(or hard to follow!!) but it lacks the interaction with others that you get if you were doing a formal course.
Any thoughts anybody?
Why do a course?
Why do we seek external recognition for our study(unless for work related courses of course!)
Does the formal course and the aim of a qualification corrupt the joy of learning or does it give the necessary "push" to your study?
Does studying Philosophy as a course sever it from your everyday life ie it becomes a "subject" to master as opposed to a way of living?
Thanks for listening and any ideas would be appreciated!!

I think that the learning expierence that university or college offers, for a philosophy example, is very important, and the feelings of resentment to people who teach you, for the reasons that you may be able to teach yourself is somewhat an incorrect method of approach to the initial learning process.
Yes, you can teach yourself many things, however earning a degree or diploma in a professional field does inhance your employment status. I feel that by self teaching yourselves leaves your studdies open to mistakes and lack of professionalism. Especially if you are studying your at home course work, there needs to be proper examinations of the knowledge that you retained not to score your abilities, but rather to put into practice this new knowledge so that it can be used post education. Therefore I just believe that teaching yourself doesn't quite add up, and the better way is to seek an education at a proper institution

[daveathome1]

I should have explained that I am a 45 yr old with no intention of changing careers and that I study just for the enjoyment of it so sorry if I misled you into thinking I had some sort of disagreement with the whole college process cos I certainly dont (except sorry I never went!!)
My Q relates to the whole way that we study and which way is best.
The formal course has the benefit of outside interaction which always helps to keep you interested.
The goal of an exam can be great to keep you motivated.
The lectures can help answer your Qs as you go along.

On the other hand some not so good things can happen along the way,such as
You can lose your love for the subject due to the pressure of exams etc
You can rush thru important areas due to time constraints
You can fool yourself into thinking you know a subject when you have probably only had a very rushed intro to it instead
You can begin to focus on the end(the degree or whatever) rather than on the subject itself and that can lead to shallowness and even vanity(any one of which will kill the love of learning in you before you even know it!)

Anyway, thats the area I am thinking about at the moment so thanks for listening and thanks to whoever sent the link for iPod lectures, excellent idea!!
PS At the moment I am studying (with the aid of Sparknotes!)
The Last days of Socrates
The Enlightenment in Europe

Cheers to all again!!

[Newcomer]

If you have looked at the material of the Teaching Company and find the lectures interesting, I might be able to assist you to a limited extent. The CD/DVD lectures are quite expensive and I have one or two on the Greek philosophers, given by a friend when we were arguing the subject. He probably has more and we might be able to share them. Your study is admirable and I would be happy to be of assistance.

[daveathome1]

Thanks first of all for the offer its really thoughtful of you!
What do you think of the subject of formal study\informal study?
I am reading the Phaedo at the moment and I must say that I find some of the arguments strange. He seems to be able to "bowl over" the others and sort of force his point through! I suppose thats one of the benefits of writing your own views through a dialogue!
I will complete this study on the Phaedo and the Enlightenment first and then maybe but one or two of those Teaching DVDs as they sound really interesting. I have also ordered from Amazon the "The Art of Travel" and "Status Anxiety" by Alain de Botton (dvd versions of his excellent books). He has a way of putting complex ideas across in a very simple and "user friendly" way that is really great. I must say that I have been slightly disappointed in some of the Web groups by their tendency to use really technical and academic jargon. I dont know if it is my ignorance or their belief that "heavy" topics require heavy language that is at fault. Either way it is a pity as surely these things are meant to be discussed as life issues and not intellectual footballs? Socrates is said to have "brought philosophy down from the skies" so maybe its time that someone reminded us again of the "everydayness" of these things and stop concealing them in unnecessary jargon.
Anyway, thanks to all for the replies and I would welcome any other ideas or opinions re these matters. Cheers from the land of the self learners!!

[papayahed]

In your case I would go for formal study. You're going for the sheer pleasure of learning, does it matter what type of grades you get? I don't think there will be the same pressure for you to do well on exams (besides if you know the subject matter you'll do fine). You will be able to talk to people with the same interest as you (maybe not in the introductory classes) and perhaps even find a philosophy club or group. Professors are always willing to help or recommend extra reading for greater comprehension, they love people who are interested in their subjects.

[Newcomer]

Hello Dave,
First let me state that I am not a philosophy student nor knowledgeable past the rudimentary history. As to the study of the subject, if you have the inclination, I can't think of a better subject to teach you how to think. By this I mean, to become a healthy skeptic of dogma.
As to formal/informal study, it would seem to me, that the benefits depend more on the individual than on the method. However I would favor the latter since it gives you the option to take detours, such as your mention of "The Art of Travel" and "Status Anxiety" by Alain de Botton. Material that may elucidate and give delight on returning to the main subject. Life is too multifarious to become a specialist, that is if you can afford it.
On the subject of travel, I found Goethe's Italian Journey, 1788, a fascinating glimpse into the mind of the man as well as of a region, especially Sc icily, that has been swallowed by progress.
Philosophy more than most branches of knowledge is prone to jargon. Some is inevitable shorthand for complex ideas but most, especially in academia, a form of status, club membership. You will have to wade through it in reading the subject.
Give me a few days to find the material I mentioned. If I remember, it is on the early Greek philosophers and Homer. If it interest you we can find a way to transfer the cds. May I suggest that we use the Private Message option provided by the Forum to discuss the particulars.
Best of luck in your journey.

[Jean-Baptiste]

Welcome Dave! I keep trying to pressure my dad into taking some classes. He seems to be in the same boat as you. He has no intention of changing careers, or even necessarily gaining a degree, but I think he would get a real kick out of being in the classroom. I spent about 8 years after high school in the library, intending to do it myself, but eventually I realized how much I was missing, and longed to actually sit in a classroom and have a professor tell me things. That, to me, is the real benefit of school, especially if your intention is only the pleasure of learning. To have someone who know their stuff simply tell you everything (not that you can simply take their word for it, or that that you would do that) is incredibly valuable, and fun. By all means, if you are enjoying your self-study, continue to do as you do, but don't feel any trepidation from these "not so good things" that you list; these can all be avoided, especially by someone in your position of learning for pleasure. Whatever you decide, I hope you have fun with it. And I hope to see you around here often. :)

[Virgil]

Welcome Dave! I keep trying to pressure my dad into taking some classes. He seems to be in the same boat as you. He has no intention of changing careers, or even necessarily gaining a degree, but I think he would get a real kick out of being in the classroom. I spent about 8 years after high school in the library, intending to do it myself, but eventually I realized how much I was missing, and longed to actually sit in a classroom and have a professor tell me things. That, to me, is the real benefit of school, especially if your intention is only the pleasure of learning. To have someone who know their stuff simply tell you everything (not that you can simply take their word for it, or that that you would do that) is incredibly valuable, and fun. By all means, if you are enjoying your self-study, continue to do as you do, but don't feel any trepidation from these "not so good things" that you list; these can all be avoided, especially by someone in your position of learning for pleasure. Whatever you decide, I hope you have fun with it. And I hope to see you around here often. :)
Oh very nice post, Jean. Yes, Dave, if you're just going for the pleasure of it I used to have several older people in my classes for just the challange and they loved it.

[SheykAbdullah]

This question hits very closely for me and my view of education. I honestly believe there is nothing that can be gotten out of college that can not be gotten out of an honest self-study, provided you have a group of friends to talk to and the discipline to realize that you do not know everything and therefore must study not only what you like and agree with, but what you don't agree with and dislike as well. Other than that, I see no use for college other than a career path. I would love to be able to not go to college and become an anthropologist and linguist without the extra academization attached, just staying in the field for years on end and studying like they did when the science was young, but unfortunately the career field requires a degree now, as all academic fields do.

I firmly believe that college does nothing but piddle biases around, some professors are good and help learning, but inevitable many are going to be useless except as advocates of their own ideas, and ultimately you can best decide for yourself what is best, providing, as I mentioned before, you have the discipline to study, seriously consider both what you agree with and what you don't agree with and can talk about it with someone else. Essentially, the last is the only place where a college prevails over self-study, in the sense of its community, however it is a small advantage if one is fortunate in his acquaintances.

If you are taking classes for fun it could be rewarding, however, provided you know who the professor is and what his teaching style is like, ie is it going to be a discussion or a lecture, but oftentimes classes are so generic I wonder why one should even bother listening. In short, a formal education is worth very little if you are truly dedicated to a liberal art, except for the financial renumeration, that is. If you feel you can guide yourself accurately in your education then go for it, don't bother with the useless expense of ridiculous academic rigors. I can understand them if you are going to be a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer, occupations where objective standards and training are important, but the study philosophy, the art of thought, how much better is it to think than to be thought?

[Newcomer]

Please check your Private Message folder.

[EAP]

This question hits very closely for me and my view of education. I honestly believe there is nothing that can be gotten out of college that can not be gotten out of an honest self-study, provided you have a group of friends to talk to and the discipline to realize that you do not know everything and therefore must study not only what you like and agree with, but what you don't agree with and dislike as well.

Except a degree which can, for some people, make the biggest difference.


Not to mention that for some discplines like engineering, hands on learning and interaction is absolutely essential and is impossible to acquire via private study.

I know you mentioned engineering and other professional subjects later in your post in passing but 'college' is not limited to the liberal arts.

[SheykAbdullah]

Except a degree which can, for some people, make the biggest difference.


Not to mention that for some discplines like engineering, hands on learning and interaction is absolutely essential and is impossible to acquire via private study.

I know you mentioned engineering and other professional subjects later in your post in passing but 'college' is not limited to the liberal arts.

I agree. I'm not saying that college is limited to the liberal arts either, but if someone simply wants to make an investigation into philosophy without the intention of getting a degree, I think that attending college classes is the worst way of doing it. There's no point to it except hearing someone else talk about what you are fully capable of reading on your own, and if you want commentary there are plenty available for much cheaper than the cost of tuition. As I said, colleges are good for professional training and entering academia. As far as being centers of learning, I hold that in the greatest skepticism.

The genltman who originally asked the question, in short, would be well advised to avoid them.

[jon1jt]

Hello to all
I have just joined and was wondering what some of you thought about the whole self learning idea as opposed to going to college? I am a self learner and have never been to college but was thinking of doing a Philosophy course. My problem is that anytime I have started a course my daily work gets really busy and I fall behind in the course. This has the effect of turning what should be a joy into a chore and you start to resent the course.
The other alternative is to use a self directed form of study which is what I am doing now(studying the Phaedo by Plato). This is great for not putting pressure on you and allowing you to linger over the parts that are really interesting(or hard to follow!!) but it lacks the interaction with others that you get if you were doing a formal course.
Any thoughts anybody?
Why do a course?
Why do we seek external recognition for our study(unless for work related courses of course!)
Does the formal course and the aim of a qualification corrupt the joy of learning or does it give the necessary "push" to your study?
Does studying Philosophy as a course sever it from your everyday life ie it becomes a "subject" to master as opposed to a way of living?
Thanks for listening and any ideas would be appreciated!!

the very fact that you asked this question informs me that you're well on the road to self-discovery. the hyperintellectualization of all subjects---philosophy included, is the first step society uses to disconnect us from real experience. we are information hunters and gatherers, gorging ourselves under the weight of parsing the world into abstract entities. most no longer watch or listen to birds, they analyze them, or the rhyming refrains of whale songs. we've exchanged a walk in the woods for polarizing debates on the "environment." these have their place, for sure. institutions are the cauldrons of such hyperintellectualized parsing, and formal courses impose a structure that its subjects are bound by. some here say that it's up to the individual to decide what's best; that college is "the" path in terms of the right career, that engineering or mathematics can't be self-taught.

EAP SAYS:
"Not to mention that for some discplines like engineering, hands on learning and interaction is absolutely essential and is impossible to acquire via private study."
---

interesting. the last time i checked, those great pyramids were constructed by individuals without an engineering degree.

we're told the degree is "indispensible." it's the job, stupid! and while you're at it, be sure to wear a blue or black suit with a white shirt and tie to the job interview. shake hands firmly, and make eye contact with your interviewer, smile! use strong verbs, and talk of globalizing markets. tell them you work well individually, but you're also a team player! the teacher admonishes the student who doesn't write a five-paragraph essay. "start your introduction with a generalization." "join another organized sport, children." Organize, organize, organize...

want a dynamite intro to philosophy class, try the teaching company, which offers the best college courses on an array of subjects. daniel robinson's philosophy course is the finest introduction you're going to get, and for under $40.00. these are lectures that you can listen to on your own time to augment your learning. or, go on, take out those student loans. or if you have it, spend your own money to pay the exorbitant cost of college for courses that will most often be taught by grad students (with the best intentions), or, at best, veteran professors in the business of maintaining their job/chair who wittingly prosyletize under the guise of free thinking (just make sure you read his books and cite the "scholarly" journals).

if you need a "push" and can't seem to get around it, then college is for you. If you're motivated, you'll attend "You University" and save your hard earned money.

ah, the temptation to quote (yet again!) my favorite line from Good Will Hunting:
"you spent 150 grand to get an education you could have gotten for a buck-fifty in late charges at the public library."

[Virgil]

the hyperintellectualization of all subjects---philosophy included, is the first step society uses to disconnect us from real experience. we are information hunters and gatherers, gorging ourselves under the weight of parsing the world into abstract entities. most no longer watch or listen to birds, they analyze them, or the rhyming refrains of whale songs. we've exchanged a walk in the woods for polarizing debates on the "environment."

Absolutely, Jon. I completely agree. :thumbs_up Over intellectualization of literature has really irked me.


EAP SAYS:
"Not to mention that for some discplines like engineering, hands on learning and interaction is absolutely essential and is impossible to acquire via private study."
---

interesting. the last time i checked, those great pyramids were constructed by individuals without an engineering degree.
Well, let's not go overboard. :lol: There was a lot of trial and error that went on. You just don't know about the errors. (I'm an engineer, by the way.:) )


want a dynamite intro to philosophy class, try the teaching company, which offers the best college courses on an array of subjects.
Hey, I love them too, Jon. Although I'm not into the philosophy courses. Great teachers on tape is a fabulous concept.

[jon1jt]

Absolutely, Jon. I completely agree. :thumbs_up Over intellectualization of literature has really irked me.


Well, let's not go overboard. :lol: There was a lot of trial and error that went on. You just don't know about the errors. (I'm an engineer, by the way.:) )


Hey, I love them too, Jon. Although I'm not into the philosophy courses. Great teachers on tape is a fabulous concept.


hey, i didn't know you were an engineer, virgil! i have heard that you are a high ranking member of an...ahem...quite elite organization, so now it makes more sense to me. :idea:

if only the teaching company had been around the years i went to college. then again, i suppose it took going through the system to realize how nonsensical the whole thing really is. of course, going to college has some benefits; but those benefits are way over-rated, especially if your major is in the social science field. and as far as English/literature, they ought to change that major to Theory Crap. :D

[B-Mental]

I will tell you that without a degree, expect to work that much harder to stay afloat. Philosophy is so much more pleasant on a full stomach. I have a degree and a job which affords me the opportunity to pursue my own areas of interest. I spent several years researching the wetland environments of sub-alpine glacially derived ecosystems, but what will I do with that knowledge. When I thought to go to get my masters, the proffessors said, "Well there aren't many of these places." He was wrong, but I let it dissuade me. A lack of money was a motivating factor to go back to work in the field of my Bachelor's degree. I was fortunate to have that to fall back on. I do however agree with the Sheyk, that a degree amounts to an enormous waste...time, energy, money, and freedom (thought). Maybe you will find a middle road.

[Virgil]

hey, i didn't know you were an engineer, virgil! i have heard that you are a high ranking member of an...ahem...quite elite organization, so now it makes more sense to me. :idea:

I am an engineer. You can read my profile and you can also read my intoduction, which is on the very first page of the "Introduce and Say Hi" thread. After double majoring between engineering and english I got an undergrad degree in Mechanical Engineering and after I got a job and a few years I went to school at night for a Masters in Eng lit. But having that job is so important that I'm lucky I made that decision to be an engineer. I have no idea what you're talking about as to organization. And i am not a high ranking member of anything. Let's say middle management.


if only the teaching company had been around the years i went to college. then again
I know, right.

and as far as English/literature, they ought to change that major to Theory Crap. :D

Absolutely!! I wish Unnamable was still here to see that. :lol: