Twelve Rostov Children

[allisonhoward8]

In reference to this quote from Chapter X:

"The countess was a woman of about forty-five, with a thin Oriental type of face, evidently worn out with childbearing- she had had twelve."

Where are the other eight? Are we to assume they all died during childbirth or as infants? Or perhaps they are older than Vera?

[olichka]

In reference to this quote from Chapter X:

"The countess was a woman of about forty-five, with a thin Oriental type of face, evidently worn out with childbearing- she had had twelve."

Where are the other eight? Are we to assume they all died during childbirth or as infants? Or perhaps they are older than Vera?

Probably both --- the countess, after all is 45, and Vera, her eldest, is only 17 ( actually, is Vera the oldest, or Nikolay ? ), although not all of them need to be older. I think that if the older children were alive and out of the house, Tolstoy would have mentioned, even briefly, their occupations/marriages. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't mention the younger children, if they were alive, even if by name.

At that time, lots of children died either during childbirth, infancy, or later. Most Tolstoy's works mention child mortality : " Anna Karenina ", " Kreutzer Sonata ", " Resurrection ", etc. Tolstoy and his wife themselves lost 5 children.

The reason Tolstoy doesn't mention it here is because the pain of family life is not the theme of the novel, not is it necessary to the plot.

[allisonhoward8]

I agree. I suppose she lost 8 children prior to the timeframe of the novel. How terrible!

Thanks for the feedback.

[olichka]

I agree. I suppose she lost 8 children prior to the timeframe of the novel. How terrible!

Thanks for the feedback.


You're very welcome.

But now is my turn to ask questions. Why is the countess described as having an " oriental type " of face ? What's the purpose of that description ? Every time I re-read that passage, it strikes me as odd and unexpected.

[mrsrobinson]

Russia, as you know, is a vast country and thus its inhabitants are distinct from each other due to centuries of isolation of their respective socioethnic groups. Thus Russians vary from "oriental" to middle eastern to nordic or eastern european in appearance.

[olichka]

Russia, as you know, is a vast country and thus its inhabitants are distinct from each other due to centuries of isolation of their respective socioethnic groups. Thus Russians vary from "oriental" to middle eastern to nordic or eastern european in appearance.

Yes, I know all that. What I meant was of what significance is mentioning her oriental appearance for the novel itself ? Tolstoy never refers to it again, nor does he develop that point. I suppose it's just one of those throw-away remarks that writers make when they're not quite sure about how to describe a character.

[conniekat8]

Oriental lookng.. I bet that much the way certain ethnic stereotypes exist in today's society, they existed 'there and then'. The description is probably very likely meant to introduce some of those stereotypical characteristics to the character in the story.

I've noticed them used elsewhere in the book, with references to, in one example ukranian and (few others that i would have to go look up to speak of them in more detail).

I believe that If we learned what kind of stereotype was attributed to oriental looking women' of those times, it would affect our impression of the character. The writer is living in times when sterotyping was not nearly as improper as it is today and in the US or 'western countries'.

[ATsarIsBorn]

If you know many Russians, you will see that quite a few of them have "Mongolian" cheekbones and several have "Oriental" eyes. This made it very effective, for example, when I saw a Korean ballerina dance Tatiana in Cranko's Eugene Onegin: young Russian girls of any class might well look like this. (Especially among aristocrats of various races in the enormous Russian empire, intermarriage of very different backgrounds were frequent. The Tsars freely ennobled the former aristocratic houses of annexed states -- though of course marriage usually required conversion to Orthodoxy.) Tolstoy mentions it the way an American novelist might mention that a woman was Irish, with a "map of Ireland" face, once, and never bring it up again because it wouldn't be important.

As for the eight dead children out of twelve -- this was also very common in Russia and everywhere else on earth before 1900. (My great-grandmother was the only survivor of 13 children. Her sister-in-law had eight live out of fourteen.) We are too ready to forget the effect that birth control and vaccination have wrought in our lives.

[olichka]

Thanks for your excellent, informative answer, ATsarIsBorn !

I'm so fascinated by your knowledge of Russian history and anthropology that I need to ask you : are you Russian ? :)

And why did you chose that unusual username ?

Sincerely, olichka.