Help on Pride and Prejudice?

[Silas]

Well, I was wondering if any can help me out with a task I have been assigned. I am to write a paper in which I justify the presence of Mr.Collins and Charlotte Lucas in the novel Pride and Prejudice and using them to help understand the theme of a bad marriage and its consequences. Any help will be greatly appreciated--whether it be your own interpretations or perhaps links to information that can provide some ideas. Again, thanks in advance.

[olichka]

Well, I was wondering if any can help me out with a task I have been assigned. I am to write a paper in which I justify the presence of Mr.Collins and Charlotte Lucas in the novel Pride and Prejudice and using them to help understand the theme of a bad marriage and its consequences. Any help will be greatly appreciated--whether it be your own interpretations or perhaps links to information that can provide some ideas. Again, thanks in advance.


In the novel Jane Austen examines different types of marriage and different types of love. She juxtaposes pure reason ( i.e. dry calculation ) and wild passion as sole factors in choosing a mate, emphasizing the need for both intelligent reason and sensible romantic love to create a good marriage. With regard to reason, it should be particularly exercised when prudently considering the financial potential of a partner.

An example of a successful (even ideal ) marriage is that of Lizzy and Darcy, since their union is based both on reason and controlled passion. Although attracted to Darcy, Elizabeth also understands how beneficial their marriage can be for both parties. To paraphrase, by his great learning her own understanding could be improved and by her liveliness, his manners could be softened. Not to mention the fact, that the marriage will be financially secure. We sense that their marriage will be successful on all levels : physical, intellectual and financial.

By contrast, Lydia's and Wickham's marriage is based on folly and lust, with both partners being irresponsible, leading to chaos in their lives. Similarly, Mr. Bennett's marriage is based solely on physical attraction which leads to his choosing a frivolous and a silly mate. Both marriages are unsuccessful, with financial problems, lack of respect for a partner and inability to raise children intelligently.

In Charlotte's case, due to her constricted material situation, the choice of a mate is made solely for mercenary reasons in order to survive. She doesn't love her husband, spending as much time as possible away from him which makes it the worst marriage in the novel. Although making her secure financially and respectable, we sense that eventually ( although she describes herself as " not romantic " ) it will cause great emotional pain for both her and her husband which will affect their children as well. Thus reason alone also produces a bad marriage, albeit a different type of a bad marriage .

The unfortunate Collins/Charlotte situation was introduced when Austen revised the original version of the book, called " First Impressions ". By that time, she underwent a bitter life experience herself involving a proposal from a wealthy, but unattractive and uncouth man. Although marrying him would have greatly improved her impoverished situation, she could not bring herself to marry him, as she was repulsed by him. This experience coloured her perception of the world : material security had to be bought at the cost of one's principles and taste, a very unpleasant compromise indeed. Perhaps in describing Mr.Collins' and Charlotte's marriage, she re-examined the way her own marriage would have turned out. As a matter of fact, she herself referred to this aspect of the novel (to paraphrase ) as a dose of bitterness in an otherwise sparkling and cheerful work.

Hope this helps somewhat. Also, you can always go to the critical editions of the novel---just look them up in the library.

[Silas]

Wow! I am extremely grateful, olichka. I couldn't have asked for anything more. Your insight and the way you articulate it is very impressive. The information you have provided will very much get me a introduction to how I can approach this assignment. Again, much obliged, olichka; I greatly appreciate your intelligent response.

As well, if anyone else out there has anymore input, it would again be greatly appreciated! The more the better, I suppose.

[sciencefan]

Well, I was wondering if any can help me out with a task I have been assigned. I am to write a paper in which I justify the presence of Mr.Collins and Charlotte Lucas in the novel Pride and Prejudice and using them to help understand the theme of a bad marriage and its consequences. Any help will be greatly appreciated--whether it be your own interpretations or perhaps links to information that can provide some ideas. Again, thanks in advance.
Right here on this website, you can read one person’s opinion of the scope of the book,
including comments on the marriage relationship of Mr. Collins and Charlotte Lucas.
I have copied and pasted some pertinent comments,
but you would do well to read the whole page,
so you can see how their marriage contrasts the others.
I pasted the link for you down below.

“Pride and Prejudice, similar to other Jane Austen’s novels, is written in gentle or Horacian satire. The main object of Jane’s satire in the novel is the mercenary and the ignorance of the people, a common criticism of the 18th century.”

“The last example of a marriage is a of a different nature than the ones mentioned above. The marriage between Mr. Collins and Charlotte is based on economics rather than on love or appearance. It was a common practice during Austen’s time for women to marry a husband to save herself from spinsterhood or to gain financial security. However, Jane Austen viewed this as a type of prostitution and disapproved of it. In Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen dramatizes this form of women inequality and show that women who submits themselves to this type of marriage will have to suffer in tormenting silence as Charlotte does:

"When Mr. Collins said any thing of which his wife might reasonably be ashamed, which certainly was not unseldom, she [Elizabeth] would involuntarily turned her eye on Charlotte. Once or twice she could discern a faint blush; but in general Charlotte wisely did not hear." (Chapter 28)”
http://www.online-literature.com/austen/prideprejudice/

Additionally, this website is helpful in that you can search the entire contents of the book electronically.
You can search for every incident of Charlotte’s name.
I also recommend you search for “Miss Lucas”.

[sciencefan]

Well, I was wondering if any can help me out with a task I have been assigned. I am to write a paper in which I justify the presence of Mr.Collins and Charlotte Lucas in the novel Pride and Prejudice and using them to help understand the theme of a bad marriage and its consequences. Any help will be greatly appreciated--whether it be your own interpretations or perhaps links to information that can provide some ideas. Again, thanks in advance.Your question presupposes that their marriage was a bad marriage and had bad consequences,
but I don't know that there is actual proof of that.
Is that your actual assignment? To prove they had a bad marriage?

Yes, they chose each other for very scientific reasons,
and I agree with Charlotte who believed that their chances of happiness were just as good as anyone else's,
but as you can see from the screen name I chose,
I am rather fondly disposed to science.

But if you are supposed to be proving they had a bad marriage,
you are not in want of my argument that it was otherwise.

I agree with Charlotte that every relationship has its vexations,
even if you are married to the man of your dreams, as I am.

If you have to prove they had a bad marriage,
I would do a search in the Pride and Prejudice searchable text,
for every instance of the word Collins.
From your results you can scan for comments from Charlotte or Elizabeth
where there is a commentary on Mr. Collins or their relationship,
beginning at chapter 28 with Elizabeth's visit to their home.


The director of the movie with Kiera Knightly said that Austen had thought
her story was too sweet, that it was not dark enough.
I'm not sure if that was before or after she added Mr. Collins.

I personally believe that after 15 years of marriage,
Mr. Darcy's natural tendency to be shy and withdrawn
could be just as much of an irritant to Elizabeth
as Mr. Collins's lack of sense would be to Charlotte.

[Silas]

Again, I am so grateful for another response! And what a response on that point! Thank you so much for your effort; I am now beginning to re-consider how I may approach this task. And if I am so lucky as to receive another response such as the ones olichka and sciencefan have provided, I thank you in advance.

[sciencefan]

In my opinion, I think the reason Austen added Mr. Collins and Charlotte's marriage was to give another example of how marriages came about in her day.
Charlotte and Mr. Collins are quite logical in their approach to matrimony and are the only two in the book who are so.
By reading the things that Charlotte says, to Elizabeth especially, you get a feel for what Charlotte thinks about courtship and marriage.

There is a huge revelation of Charlotte’s philosophy in chapter 6.
I cannot post the whole dialog.
Here we see the truth in that saying:
“Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.”
Charlotte, in giving her opinion and advice, is revealing the thinking of her own heart,
and Austen very cleverly reveals it to us through Elizabeth’s eyes.

“... In nine cases out of ten, a woman had better shew more affection than she feels.''”

“``When she is secure of him, there will be leisure for falling in love as much as she chuses.''”

“``Your plan is a good one,'' replied Elizabeth, ``where nothing is in question but the desire of being well married; and if I were determined to get a rich husband, or any husband, I dare say I should adopt it. But these are not Jane's feelings; she is not acting by design.''”
Here Charlotte’s plan is revealed by Austen:
She is willing to be designing and calculating in the catching of a husband.

“``...Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other, or ever so similar before-hand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always contrive to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life.''”

``You make me laugh, Charlotte; but it is not sound. You know it is not sound, and that you would never act in this way yourself.''
This is where we learn that Elizabeth thinks this advice is foolish,
and that she doesn’t know Charlotte as well as she thinks she does.

Chapter 18
“Charlotte could not help cautioning her, in a whisper, not to be a simpleton, and allow her fancy for Wickham to make her appear unpleasant in the eyes of a man of ten times his consequence.”
I personally thought this advice of Charlotte’s was wise.
Elizabeth had prejudicially misjudged Darcy to begin with anyway,
but it shows more of Charlotte’s science of catching a man at almost any price, I think.

Chapter 20
“...Charlotte, detained first by the civility of Mr. Collins, whose inquiries after herself and all her family were very minute, and then by a little curiosity, satisfied herself with walking to the window and pretending not to hear.”
Charlotte is about to learn that Mr. Collins is a man ripe for the capture.

Chapture 21
“He [Mr. Collins] scarcely ever spoke to her [Elizabeth], and the assiduous attentions which he had been so sensible of himself, were transferred for the rest of the day to Miss Lucas, whose civility in listening to him, was a seasonable relief to them all, and especially to her friend.”
Charlotte makes herself a desirable companion to Mr. Collins by listening to him.

Chapter 22
“... and again during the chief of the day, was Miss Lucas so kind as to listen to Mr. Collins. Elizabeth took an opportunity of thanking her. ``It keeps him in good humour,'' said she, ``and I am more obliged to you than I can express.'' Charlotte assured her friend of her satisfaction in being useful, and that it amply repaid her for the little sacrifice of her time. This was very amiable, but Charlotte's kindness extended farther than Elizabeth had any conception of; -- its object was nothing less than to secure her from any return of Mr. Collins's addresses, by engaging them towards herself. Such was Miss Lucas's scheme...”

“She [Charlotte] had gained her point, and had time to consider of it. Her reflections were in general satisfactory. Mr. Collins to be sure was neither sensible nor agreeable; his society was irksome, and his attachment to her must be imaginary. But still, he would be her husband. -- Without thinking highly either of men or of matrimony, marriage had always been her object; it was the only honourable provision for well-educated young women of small fortune, and however uncertain of giving happiness, must be their pleasantest preservative from want. This preservative she had now obtained; and at the age of twenty-seven, without having ever been handsome, she felt all the good luck of it.”

After Elizabeth reacts:
“``I see what you are feeling,'' replied Charlotte, -- ``you must be surprised, very much surprised, -- so lately as Mr. Collins was wishing to marry you. But when you have had time to think it all over, I hope you will be satisfied with what I have done. I am not romantic, you know. I never was. I ask only a comfortable home; and considering Mr. Collins's character, connections, and situation in life, I am convinced that my chance of happiness with him is as fair as most people can boast on entering the marriage state.''”


Chapter 15 affords an excellent synopsis of Mr. Collins’ person:
“MR. COLLINS was not a sensible man, and the deficiency of nature had been but little assisted by education or society; the greatest part of his life having been spent under the guidance of an illiterate and miserly father; and though he belonged to one of the universities, he had merely kept the necessary terms, without forming at it any useful acquaintance. The subjection in which his father had brought him up had given him originally great humility of manner, but it was now a good deal counteracted by the self-conceit of a weak head, living in retirement, and the consequential feelings of early and unexpected prosperity. A fortunate chance had recommended him to Lady Catherine de Bourgh when the living of Hunsford was vacant; and the respect which he felt for her high rank and his veneration for her as his patroness, mingling with a very good opinion of himself, of his authority as a clergyman, and his rights as a rector, made him altogether a mixture of pride and obsequiousness, self-importance and humility.
Having now a good house and very sufficient income, he intended to marry...”

When you also read Mr. Collins’s reasons for marrying, which he spells out to Elizabeth in chapter 19, you see that Mr. Collins and Miss Lucas are both equally calculating in their decision to marry.
I think it’s important to remember that arranged marriages, where there were NO feelings considered, were not that long gone before, and perhaps were still in existence.
Compared to THAT, I don’t think Charlotte or Mr. Collins behaved that badly.

In another place, Jane reminds Elizabeth that difference of temperaments needs to be taken into account, and she shouldn't be so harsh on Charlotte.

The dialog in the movie with Kiera Knightly where Charlotte explains how she has no money and no prospects and that she is already a burden to her parents is an excellent commentary on Charlotte’s desperate situation, even though it is not spelled out that way in the book.

In our day in America, we are brainwashed into thinking there is such a thing as happily ever after.
Our divorce rate shows we are deceived.

I'm reminded of the line from the movie "Sleepless in Seattle"
"Attraction is when your subconscious is attracted to their subconscious.
Fate is two neuroses knowing they're a perfect match."

I have no doubt all the couples in Pride and Prejudice deserved each other.

[Silas]

I cannot think you enough, sciencefan. I'm beginning to really consider your opinion; now, I only need to come up with a solid theme in my paper to work this around. Again, your effort is quite admirable and I greatly appreciate it. Perhaps, when I used what you have shared with me, I will let you know how my assignment went in the future. Thank you:)

[sciencefan]

I cannot think you enough, sciencefan. I'm beginning to really consider your opinion; now, I only need to come up with a solid theme in my paper to work this around. Again, your effort is quite admirable and I greatly appreciate it. Perhaps, when I used what you have shared with me, I will let you know how my assignment went in the future. Thank you:)You are very welcome.

I would love to hear how it turns out.

[sciencefan]

Concerning a theme, here is a quote I pasted in post #4:
"The marriage between Mr. Collins and Charlotte is based on economics rather than on love or appearance."

Therein lies the key to your theme.

[sciencefan]

In the novel Jane Austen examines different types of marriage and different types of love. She juxtaposes pure reason ( i.e. dry calculation ) and wild passion as sole factors in choosing a mate, emphasizing the need for both intelligent reason and sensible romantic love to create a good marriage. With regard to reason, it should be particularly exercised when prudently considering the financial potential of a partner.

An example of a successful (even ideal ) marriage is that of Lizzy and Darcy, since their union is based both on reason and controlled passion. Although attracted to Darcy, Elizabeth also understands how beneficial their marriage can be for both parties. To paraphrase, by his great learning her own understanding could be improved and by her liveliness, his manners could be softened. Not to mention the fact, that the marriage will be financially secure. We sense that their marriage will be successful on all levels : physical, intellectual and financial.

By contrast, Lydia's and Wickham's marriage is based on folly and lust, with both partners being irresponsible, leading to chaos in their lives. Similarly, Mr. Bennett's marriage is based solely on physical attraction which leads to his choosing a frivolous and a silly mate. Both marriages are unsuccessful, with financial problems, lack of respect for a partner and inability to raise children intelligently.

In Charlotte's case, due to her constricted material situation, the choice of a mate is made solely for mercenary reasons in order to survive. She doesn't love her husband, spending as much time as possible away from him which makes it the worst marriage in the novel. Although making her secure financially and respectable, we sense that eventually ( although she describes herself as " not romantic " ) it will cause great emotional pain for both her and her husband which will affect their children as well. Thus reason alone also produces a bad marriage, albeit a different type of a bad marriage .

The unfortunate Collins/Charlotte situation was introduced when Austen revised the original version of the book, called " First Impressions ". By that time, she underwent a bitter life experience herself involving a proposal from a wealthy, but unattractive and uncouth man. Although marrying him would have greatly improved her impoverished situation, she could not bring herself to marry him, as she was repulsed by him. This experience coloured her perception of the world : material security had to be bought at the cost of one's principles and taste, a very unpleasant compromise indeed. Perhaps in describing Mr.Collins' and Charlotte's marriage, she re-examined the way her own marriage would have turned out. As a matter of fact, she herself referred to this aspect of the novel (to paraphrase ) as a dose of bitterness in an otherwise sparkling and cheerful work.

Hope this helps somewhat. Also, you can always go to the critical editions of the novel---just look them up in the library.

I just wanted to say that overall, I think this is an excellent post.
The writer brings some pieces of "insider knowledge" as it were, that are truly fascinating.
In truth, I would love to read these first hand sources myself!
Excellent post from someone who has obviously gone below the surface to further investigate the truth.

Therefore, I may be the only person in the world who feels this way,
but I don't feel that Charlotte's marriage is the worst one in the book.
In being a reflection of real life, there were probably thousands and thousands
of marriages just like Charlotte's in that time in England.
I thought that the reason it was introduced was more to show a contrast to
how a girl would prefer to marry for love,
though many times she did not end up doing so.
Even though Charlotte didn't marry for love,
she had spent two days listening to Mr. Collins;
she knew what she was getting into.
She judged herself capable of tolerating him.
If Charlotte, like Austen herself, had been "repulsed"
by Mr. Collins, I dare say she would not have married him.
I cannot believe any human being would be that
little concerned for their own happiness.
Coming from a family of frightful gossips and busybodies,
I'm sure Charlotte felt quite at home with Mr. Collins.

We forget that romance, and dating, and "love at first sight"
are inventions of the American Industrial Revolution.

In Austen's day, I am given to understand that
marriage was a way of improving one's situation in life,
as much as getting a good job is now.

I am under the impression that Elizabeth's parents would have had the right
to force her to accept Mr. Collins' proposal,
and she would have had to obey them.
Mr. Collins says as much as she leaves the room.
"``...and I am persuaded that when sanctioned by the express authority
of both your excellent parents,
my proposals will not fail of being acceptable.''"

And here Austen displays Solomon-like wisdom in presenting
the response of Elizabeth's father! Incredible!
"``An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth.
From this day you must be a stranger to one of your parents. --
Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins,
and I will never see you again if you do.''"
She is SAVED!

Charlotte's and Mr. Collins' life is one of financial stability
and relative physical comfort.
I guess I have compassion for her situation because
even though I have been married to the man of my dreams for 25 years,
I hardly ever see him in a day's time either.
He works 70 hours a week,
and when he is not working,
he finds other projects to work on.
In his spare time he relaxes in front of the tv,
and I in front of the computer.
But as Jane says, when you consider our temperaments,
you see that we are both introverts and need time alone to recuperate.
Charlotte has her space,
and Mr. Collins, who is most obviously not an introvert,
gets his stimulation out and about in his parish and
in company with Lady De Bourgh.
All in all, in thatr society, they are considered respectable people.
I'm not saying their marriage was perfect,
I'm just saying it was probably typical.
Mr. Bennett spent as much time alone as possible, too.

(Perhaps all the acclaimed critics in the world see it otherwise but...)
I think Lydia's marriage is the worst.
She is married to a man who never intended to marry her in the first place.
They frequently move about and never settle anywhere;
they have no financial stability.
He is not even a respectable or honorable man,
and perhaps he will even be unfaithful.
"...it was yet a well known fact that on his quitting Derbyshire
he had left many debts behind him,
which Mr. Darcy afterwards discharged." ch 44

"``I must confess that he [Colonel Forster] did not speak so well of Wickham as he formerly did.
He believed him to be imprudent and extravagant.
And since this sad affair has taken place,
it is said that he left Meryton greatly in debt;
but I hope this may be false.''" ch 47

"He was declared to be in debt to every tradesman in the place,
and his intrigues, all honoured with the title of seduction,
had been extended into every tradesman's family" ch 48
(I'm not sure what this means, but I think it means he is a womanizer.)

"He [Wickham] confessed himself obliged to leave the regiment,
on account of some debts of honour, which were very pressing;
and scrupled not to lay all the ill-consequences of Lydia's flight
on her own folly alone." ch 52

And here we discover the end of Lydia and Wickham:
"It had always been evident to her [Elizabeth]that such an income as theirs,
under the direction of two persons so extravagant in their wants,
and heedless of the future, must be very insufficient to their support;
and whenever they changed their quarters,
either Jane or herself were sure of being applied to for some
little assistance towards discharging their bills.
Their manner of living, even when the restoration of peace
dismissed them to a home, was unsettled in the extreme.
They were always moving from place to place in quest of a cheap situation,
and always spending more than they ought.
His affection for her soon sunk into indifference;
her's lasted a little longer; and in spite of her youth and her manners,
she retained all the claims to reputation which her marriage had given her."
(I would like to know what this means:
"...even when the restoration of peace dismissed them to a home...")

Here we see Wickham was never allowed at Pemberly,
and the Wickham's dared too frequently mooch off the Bingleys.
"Though Darcy could never receive him at Pemberley, yet,
for Elizabeth's sake, he assisted him farther in his profession.
Lydia was occasionally a visitor there,
when her husband was gone to enjoy himself in London or Bath;
and with the Bingleys they both of them frequently staid so long,
that even Bingley's good humour was overcome,
and he proceeded so far as to talk of giving them a hint to be gone." ch 61

No. I would rather have Charlotte's life than Lydia's.

[olichka]

First of all, thanks for the compliment on my post. I really appreciate it !

( N.B.-- Edited ) : I wish I could help you with the sources where I got the information ( actually, second- hand, not first-hand -- I read biographies and literary criticism , but a long time ago, so don't remember the titles ! )

You have made good points about Lydia's and Charlotte's respective marriages. I guess discussing different marriages is a complicated matter because everybody has a different view of what a good marriage constitutes, based on their own values, needs and temperament.

When saying that Charlotte's marriage is the worst, I was referring to the fact that Charlotte can't even stand the sight and sound of her husband, whereas Lydia at least is attracted to her own, wants to be around him and admires him, although, off course, only in the initial stages of marriage. Their marriage is certainly very chaotic.

But then how would Charlotte later feel about her husband and he about her, if she doesn't even want to be around him ? I think that constantly having to be devious in order to avoid his " irksome " company would be a drain on psychic and emotional energy. Also, even for an unromantic person like herself, wouldn't she eventually become lonely and frustrated at not having a normal reciprocal relationship with a spouse ? Wouldn't she eventually need a companion ? I guess it's hard to speculate. But maybe, as you said, being an introvert, she wouldn't really need a partner, and just having friends would be enough society for her ?

Also, I'd like to point out the fact that you yourself mentioned with regard to Austen's view of marriages of convenience : namely, that she thought of them as a form of " prostitution " .You suggest that if Charlotte found Collins repulsive, then she would not have married him. But perhaps Austen wants to describe a marriage that she considers a form of prostitution ? For how can you be romantically attracted to a man that you despise as a person ? And Charlotte, seemingly proper, does not appear to be a sexual animal for whom physical attraction ( here I mean attraction for the physical body only of the individual ) would be enough to engage in sex. Perhaps, it's actually the fact that she's " not romantic " that would make it easier for her to "disengage" herself from Mr. Collins in their intimate moments, thus performing an act of prostitution ?

So, perhaps due to Austen's point of view that Charlotte's marriage is a " form of prostitution " , her marriage can be considered the worst type of arrangement, even though there were quite a few marriages like hers in the 18th-19th centuries. After all, Austen herself was from that time period, but she rejected this arrangement, considering it distasteful !!!

As to Lydia, at least she wants to sleep with her husband !

[sciencefan]

First of all, thanks for the compliment on my post. I really appreciate it !

( N.B.-- Edited ) : I wish I could help you with the sources where I got the information ( actually, second- hand, not first-hand -- I read biographies and literary criticism , but a long time ago, so don't remember the titles ! )

You have made good points about Lydia's and Charlotte's respective marriages. I guess discussing different marriages is a complicated matter because everybody has a different view of what a good marriage constitutes, based on their own values, needs and temperament.

When saying that Charlotte's marriage is the worst, I was referring to the fact that Charlotte can't even stand the sight and sound of her husband, whereas Lydia at least is attracted to her own, wants to be around him and admires him, although, off course, only in the initial stages of marriage. Their marriage is certainly very chaotic.

But then how would Charlotte later feel about her husband and he about her, if she doesn't even want to be around him ? I think that constantly having to be devious in order to avoid his " irksome " company would be a drain on psychic and emotional energy. Also, even for an unromantic person like herself, wouldn't she eventually become lonely and frustrated at not having a normal reciprocal relationship with a spouse ? Wouldn't she eventually need a companion ? I guess it's hard to speculate. But maybe, as you said, being an introvert, she wouldn't really need a partner, and just having friends would be enough society for her ?

Also, I'd like to point out the fact that you yourself mentioned with regard to Austen's view of marriages of convenience : namely, that she thought of them as a form of " prostitution " .You suggest that if Charlotte found Collins repulsive, then she would not have married him. But perhaps Austen wants to describe a marriage that she considers a form of prostitution ? For how can you be romantically attracted to a man that you despise as a person ? And Charlotte, seemingly proper, does not appear to be a sexual animal for whom physical attraction ( here I mean attraction for the physical body only of the individual ) would be enough to engage in sex. Perhaps, it's actually the fact that she's " not romantic " that would make it easier for her to "disengage" herself from Mr. Collins in their intimate moments, thus performing an act of prostitution ?

So, perhaps due to Austen's point of view that Charlotte's marriage is a " form of prostitution " , her marriage can be considered the worst type of arrangement, even though there were quite a few marriages like hers in the 18th-19th centuries. After all, Austen herself was from that time period, but she rejected this arrangement, considering it distasteful !!!

As to Lydia, at least she wants to sleep with her husband !
You are most welcome.
Your post was excellent and deserved commendation,
and I didn't want you to think I was quarreling with you.

I agree with you that everyone's definition of what
constitutes a good marriage is probably a little different.

I didn't for one split second even consider their sex life!
(I guess that makes me an old woman who has been married too long!:lol: )
Lydia's sex life is bound to at least exist, and I agree with you,
she is probably apt to enjoy it.
Charlotte, on the other hand, probably will not have a
very enjoyable sex life, but who did in those days?

I got the impression that Mr. Collins looked for a bride among his cousins-
who would be desperate to say yes to him for financial reasons-
because he didn't have much to offer in the way of "manliness".
I don't think they will have very much sex at all,
except to procreate.

I think back in those days, marriages were arranged,
or based on financial considerations, foremostly.
I thought that Austen was trying to suggest that some other criteria
should be looked at, like compatibility of intelligence, of temperament,
tastes, style of living, etc.

For instance, I think one of the things Darcy likes about Elizabeth is
the fact that she likes the outdoors.
This is the second thing that impresses him about her, if I recall,
when she comes in the room all "wild" and muddy,
her "fine eyes" having been "brightened by the exercise".
Probably all those city women he was used to would never have
appreciated the "delightful grounds at Pemberley" the way Elizabeth will.

"Mrs. Gardiner...``the grounds are delightful. They have some of the finest woods in the country.''" Ch. 42

Jane, we know, thinks Bingley is "just what a young man ought to be".
He is her ideal.
And Bingley thinks Jane is ""the most beautiful creature I ever beheld!''" Ch. 3
Certainly we hope he has more criteria than that for marrying her.
But many men before him have done the same.
I have heard of several stories of men who on the first moment of seeing
a woman "knew" she was the one he wanted to marry.

[sciencefan]

When saying that Charlotte's marriage is the worst, I was referring to the fact that Charlotte can't even stand the sight and sound of her husband, whereas Lydia at least is attracted to her own, wants to be around him and admires him, although, off course, only in the initial stages of marriage. Their marriage is certainly very chaotic.
I would agree with your opinion, if you are correct that Charlotte can't stand the sight or sound of her husband, but I don't think it's really that bad.
We can’t take Elizabeth’s opinion about Mr. Collins as the gospel truth.
What is annoying to one person is not necessarily annoying to all.
If Charlotte had felt toward Mr. Collins the exact same way Lizzy did, I don’t think she would have married him.
I guess I just refuse to believe that any woman would be so stupid as to marry anyone she couldn’t stand for one second, no matter HOW much money or security is involved.
I’d rather give her the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, she sought solitude in her home, but avoiding someone’s company because you can’t stand them is different than avoiding them because you don’t want to be around them 24/7.
Mr. Collins isn’t just a person who talks too much, he seems to have no boundaries and could easily steal away all of someone’s free time without even realizing it.


But then how would Charlotte later feel about her husband and he about her, if she doesn't even want to be around him ? I think that constantly having to be devious in order to avoid his "irksome" company would be a drain on psychic and emotional energy. Also, even for an unromantic person like herself, wouldn't she eventually become lonely and frustrated at not having a normal reciprocal relationship with a spouse ? Wouldn't she eventually need a companion ? I guess it's hard to speculate. But maybe, as you said, being an introvert, she wouldn't really need a partner, and just having friends would be enough society for her ?
In today’s America, I agree with you, such a situation would never do.
There are not that many clues concerning how Charlotte feels about Mr. Collins, but here are some passages I found that tell us something.

AFTER a week spent in professions of love and schemes of felicity, Mr. Collins was called from his amiable Charlotte by the arrival of Saturday. ch 25
Charlotte spent a week entertaining him and making herself amiable to him.
She apparently finds herself up to the task of being his companion.

...and [Elizabeth] rather looked with wonder at her friend that she could have so cheerful an air, with such a companion. When Mr. Collins said any thing of which his wife might reasonably be ashamed, which certainly was not unseldom, she involuntarily turned her eye on Charlotte. Once or twice she could discern a faint blush; but in general Charlotte wisely did not hear.
Charlotte has a cheerful air.
She ignores what she has no control over.

To work in his garden was one of his most respectable pleasures; and Elizabeth admired the command of countenance with which Charlotte talked of the healthfulness of the exercise, and owned she encouraged it as much as possible.
Here we see that he probably does pester her, and she encourages him to pursue other interests.

When Mr. Collins could be forgotten, there was really a great air of comfort throughout, and by Charlotte's evident enjoyment of it, Elizabeth supposed he must be often forgotten.
Perhaps this is true, and my point is this: in those days, that’s what women did, but again this is Elizabeth’s reading of it because that’s how SHE would feel about it.

``Lady Catherine is a very respectable, sensible woman indeed,'' added Charlotte, ``and a most attentive neighbour.''
``Very true, my dear, that is exactly what I say. She is the sort of woman whom one cannot regard with too much deference.''
Charlotte has learned to parrot her husband to make him happy.

... Elizabeth, in the solitude of her chamber, had to meditate upon Charlotte's degree of contentment, to understand her address in guiding, and composure in bearing with her husband, and to acknowledge that it was all done very well.
Charlotte does have a degree of contentment; she guides him and bears with him, and she does it all very well. Surely it must take a woman of a certain mild and steady temperament to do that.

...for the chief of the time between breakfast and dinner was now passed by him either at work in the garden, or in reading and writing, and looking out of window in his own book room, which fronted the road. The room in which the ladies sat was backwards. Elizabeth at first had rather wondered that Charlotte should not prefer the dining parlour for common use; it was a better sized room, and had a pleasanter aspect; but she soon saw that her friend had an excellent reason for what she did, for Mr. Collins would undoubtedly have been much less in his own apartment, had they sat in one equally lively; and she gave Charlotte credit for the arrangement.
Charlotte has to work at gaining her peace and quiet.


``My dear Charlotte and I have but one mind and one way of thinking. There is in every thing a most remarkable resemblance of character and ideas between us. We seem to have been designed for each other.''
This is remarkable. I assumed it was true, or at least half true.
Charlotte does an excellent job of making her husband happy.
She has accepted her lot in life with the patience and grace of a saint.
And perhaps that is all owing to her expectations for as we know she had neither a high opinion of men or of marriage.

Elizabeth could safely say that it was a great happiness where that was the case, and with equal sincerity could add that she firmly believed and rejoiced in his domestic comforts. She was not sorry, however, to have the recital of them interrupted by the entrance of the lady from whom they sprung. Poor Charlotte! -- it was melancholy to leave her to such society! -- But she had chosen it with her eyes open; and though evidently regretting that her visitors were to go, she did not seem to ask for compassion. Her home and her housekeeping, her parish and her poultry, and all their dependent concerns, had not yet lost their charms. ch 28
Charlotte seems satisfied with her new life- and so is Mr. Collins.
She is making the best of her situation.

[olichka]

I would agree with your opinion, if you are correct that Charlotte can't stand the sight or sound of her husband, but I don't think it's really that bad.
We can’t take Elizabeth’s opinion about Mr. Collins as the gospel truth.
What is annoying to one person is not necessarily annoying to all.
If Charlotte had felt toward Mr. Collins the exact same way Lizzy did, I don’t think she would have married him.
I guess I just refuse to believe that any woman would be so stupid as to marry anyone she couldn’t stand for one second, no matter HOW much money or security is involved.
I’d rather give her the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, she sought solitude in her home, but avoiding someone’s company because you can’t stand them is different than avoiding them because you don’t want to be around them 24/7.
Mr. Collins isn’t just a person who talks too much, he seems to have no boundaries and could easily steal away all of someone’s free time without even realizing it.


In today’s America, I agree with you, such a situation would never do.
There are not that many clues concerning how Charlotte feels about Mr. Collins, but here are some passages I found that tell us something.

AFTER a week spent in professions of love and schemes of felicity, Mr. Collins was called from his amiable Charlotte by the arrival of Saturday. ch 25
Charlotte spent a week entertaining him and making herself amiable to him.
She apparently finds herself up to the task of being his companion.

...and [Elizabeth] rather looked with wonder at her friend that she could have so cheerful an air, with such a companion. When Mr. Collins said any thing of which his wife might reasonably be ashamed, which certainly was not unseldom, she involuntarily turned her eye on Charlotte. Once or twice she could discern a faint blush; but in general Charlotte wisely did not hear.
Charlotte has a cheerful air.
She ignores what she has no control over.

To work in his garden was one of his most respectable pleasures; and Elizabeth admired the command of countenance with which Charlotte talked of the healthfulness of the exercise, and owned she encouraged it as much as possible.
Here we see that he probably does pester her, and she encourages him to pursue other interests.

When Mr. Collins could be forgotten, there was really a great air of comfort throughout, and by Charlotte's evident enjoyment of it, Elizabeth supposed he must be often forgotten.
Perhaps this is true, and my point is this: in those days, that’s what women did, but again this is Elizabeth’s reading of it because that’s how SHE would feel about it.

``Lady Catherine is a very respectable, sensible woman indeed,'' added Charlotte, ``and a most attentive neighbour.''
``Very true, my dear, that is exactly what I say. She is the sort of woman whom one cannot regard with too much deference.''
Charlotte has learned to parrot her husband to make him happy.

... Elizabeth, in the solitude of her chamber, had to meditate upon Charlotte's degree of contentment, to understand her address in guiding, and composure in bearing with her husband, and to acknowledge that it was all done very well.
Charlotte does have a degree of contentment; she guides him and bears with him, and she does it all very well. Surely it must take a woman of a certain mild and steady temperament to do that.

...for the chief of the time between breakfast and dinner was now passed by him either at work in the garden, or in reading and writing, and looking out of window in his own book room, which fronted the road. The room in which the ladies sat was backwards. Elizabeth at first had rather wondered that Charlotte should not prefer the dining parlour for common use; it was a better sized room, and had a pleasanter aspect; but she soon saw that her friend had an excellent reason for what she did, for Mr. Collins would undoubtedly have been much less in his own apartment, had they sat in one equally lively; and she gave Charlotte credit for the arrangement.
Charlotte has to work at gaining her peace and quiet.


``My dear Charlotte and I have but one mind and one way of thinking. There is in every thing a most remarkable resemblance of character and ideas between us. We seem to have been designed for each other.''
This is remarkable. I assumed it was true, or at least half true.
Charlotte does an excellent job of making her husband happy.
She has accepted her lot in life with the patience and grace of a saint.
And perhaps that is all owing to her expectations for as we know she had neither a high opinion of men or of marriage.

Elizabeth could safely say that it was a great happiness where that was the case, and with equal sincerity could add that she firmly believed and rejoiced in his domestic comforts. She was not sorry, however, to have the recital of them interrupted by the entrance of the lady from whom they sprung. Poor Charlotte! -- it was melancholy to leave her to such society! -- But she had chosen it with her eyes open; and though evidently regretting that her visitors were to go, she did not seem to ask for compassion. Her home and her housekeeping, her parish and her poultry, and all their dependent concerns, had not yet lost their charms. ch 28
Charlotte seems satisfied with her new life- and so is Mr. Collins.
She is making the best of her situation.



This was a very good, thorough analysis. You're right, Austen gave the description of Charlotte's marriage through Elizabeth's eyes which would make it a very biased and judgemental analysis. Perhaps Elizabeth interprets what is simply annoying some of the time as constantly unbearable because that's how she would feel about it. It's true that all couples have to ignore the unappealing traits in their spouses, and some do it better than others. Charlotte has a much milder, tolerant personality than Elizabeth, so her marriage works for her.

The passages that you cited help create a much more positive impression of Mr.Collins --- he spends a lot of time in his garden ( actually, not only a useful and a respectable occupation, but a very tasteful and creative one ), he reads a lot, does work in his parish, etc. Charlotte certainly has a respectable husband and a respectable position as a minister's wife with her own parish work and her household duties. I guess it's either a suitable occupation for her or she adjusted to it well because of her temperament.

All in all, I want to add that every reader interprets characters and situations as presented by a writer in their own way, particularly since some situations/characters are described in an ambiguous fashion. That's why various literary interpretations exist, with each presenting valid points and insights.

[sciencefan]

This was a very good, thorough analysis. You're right, Austen gave the description of Charlotte's marriage through Elizabeth's eyes which would make it a very biased and judgemental analysis. Perhaps Elizabeth interprets what is simply annoying some of the time as constantly unbearable because that's how she would feel about it. It's true that all couples have to ignore the unappealing traits in their spouses, and some do it better than others. Charlotte has a much milder, tolerant personality than Elizabeth, so her marriage works for her.

The passages that you cited help create a much more positive impression of Mr.Collins --- he spends a lot of time in his garden ( actually, not only a useful and a respectable occupation, but a very tasteful and creative one ), he reads a lot, does work in his parish, etc. Charlotte certainly has a respectable husband and a respectable position as a minister's wife with her own parish work and her household duties. I guess it's either a suitable occupation for her or she adjusted to it well because of her temperament.

All in all, I want to add that every reader interprets characters and situations as presented by a writer in their own way, particularly since some situations/characters are described in an ambiguous fashion. That's why various literary interpretations exist, with each presenting valid points and insights.

I'm so glad to have gained your agreement.
I have been enjoying our discussion greatly.

And you're so right about interpretations.
That's why it's sometimes good to get a variety of opinions.

[olichka]

Since you enjoy our discussions so much ( and so do I ), how do you think Darcy and Lizzy's marriage would turn out ? I'm dying to know your opinion. I think they're an excellent couple, very compatible, although pride and stubborness would probably get in the way.

I think that Austen presented them as the most romantic couple in the novel, with the help of references to nature whenever Darcy and Lizzy are present.

Not to mention the opening lines of Darcy's first proposal :

" You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you ! " I think this must be the most poetical line of all love literature, being romantic and tasteful at the same time ! A most aristocratic way of expressing oneself, and very befitting the very noble Darcy ! :angel:


In comparison, Jane and Bingley are a very conventional romantic couple.

Perhaps a strength of character accounts for the difference in romantic intensity and expression ?

[sciencefan]

Since you enjoy our discussions so much ( and so do I ), how do you think Darcy and Lizzy's marriage would turn out ? I'm dying to know your opinion. I think they're an excellent couple, very compatible, although pride and stubborness would probably get in the way.

I think that Austen presented them as the most romantic couple in the novel, with the help of references to nature whenever Darcy and Lizzy are present.

Not to mention the opening lines of Darcy's first proposal :

" You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire and love you ! " I think this must be the most poetical line of all love literature, being romantic and tasteful at the same time ! A most aristocratic way of expressing oneself, and very befitting the very noble Darcy ! :angel:

In comparison, Jane and Bingley are a very conventional romantic couple.

Perhaps a strength of character accounts for the difference in romantic intensity and expression ?Why, they lived happily ever after, of course!

Seriously though, firstly let me say that I want them to live happily ever after,
and nothing will dissuade me from my resolve!
I do not care to hear otherwise!

That being said, until reading your posts, I had never given a thought to how the different marriages would be afterward.
I tend to avoid jumping to conclusions without enough information.
To tell you the truth, I have felt that Austen sort of leaves me wondering what exactly it is that Darcy loves about Elizabeth.
When I read the romantic line you love so much, I found myself thinking, yes, but why?
I wish she would have spent more time developing that for us.

I have found a couple of items he loves and admires, like the fine eyes, and the love of outdoors, and I guess her care of her sister is mentioned, oh yes, and her impertinence.
And you have apparently come upon frequent references to nature which I haven't noticed.

As it is in real life: opposites attract.
His greatest weakness is perhaps her greatest strength - conversing with strangers.
His greatest strength is perhaps his sense of duty and taking responsibility (as he did with Wickham and Lydia).
Perhaps we could venture to say that maybe Elizabeth is a little too selfish in that way, since she refused to sacrifice herself for the everlasting comfort of all her family by not marrying Mr. Collins.
I wonder what Jane would have done?

(I have just read Pride and Prejudice twice in the past month.)
Truthfully, the book left me puzzled about what it was exactly that made them want each other, and asking myself whether that was really enough reason to marry somebody.

Whatever was the motivating factor, we know that Darcy was ready to sacrifice everything dear to him in order to have her: pride, opinions of others, etc.

We know they were good for each other,
and really that is what a successful marriage is all about.
If you can help each other be a better person,
if you cause the other person to be better with you,
than they would be alone,
if you believe in each other and respect each other,
if you can trust each other entirely,
to be completely honest and faithful,
these are things that make for a healthy intimate marriage.
When you know a man has your best interests at heart,
as we are sure Darcy does,
and is unselfish in his actions,
which Darcy did,
you know that man truly loves you.

And really, Darcy fulfills that ideal of "unconditional love"
since he continued to pour out selfless acts toward her no matter what the price-
including becoming Wickham's brother-in-law!
And don't we ALL want to be unconditionally loved!?

[sciencefan]

Would you happen to be a fan of Meyers-Briggs personality profiles?
I'm pretty sure Darcy is an INTJ but I don't know anyone else's type.

[olichka]

Would you happen to be a fan of Meyers-Briggs personality profiles?
I'm pretty sure Darcy is an INTJ but I don't know anyone else's type.

Why do you think that Darcy is intuitive ( "N" is for intuition, right ? ) ? I thought that he was a " Sensor " who needed all the information to understand a person ? After all, he didn't like Lizzy right away, but upon gradually getting to know her ?

Anyways, I think Darcy likes Elizabeth first for her appearance, then for her liveliness and then her mind. ( However, forgetting the sequence of events here ). I think that when he's admiring her " wild " look and healthy glow, he doesn't just think of her love of nature, but he also sees her as an energetic, lively person as evidenced by her love of brisk walking. This particular trait sets her apart from women of his circle who are raised to be formal and poised rather than lively.

As he himself tells her upon his 2nd proposal, he admired her for " the liveliness of [ her ] mind ". When at Netherfield while Jane is sick and later at the Netherfield ball, they do a lot of intellectual sparring. Since Darcy is highly intelligent himself, it's understandable that this trait in Elizabeth would appeal to him greatly. She is his intellectual equal, unlike the many " insipid " women of his circle.

Moreover, this sparring is performed with a lot spirit and aplomb on Elizabeth's part which, I imagine, also charms Darcy. He's also impressed with Elizabeth's ability to stand up for herself and to hold her own with an aristocrat like himself, even though she belongs to a lower strata of gentry and despite the fact that he looked down on her initially. I suspect he also welcomes this approach of Elizabeth's to him ( as opposed to deferrential treatment he's used to ) because, being a strong person, he feels challenged and energized by it.

All of the above traits, although attractive in themselves, raise her above the women not only of her class, but of his as well. To summarize, she impresses him as a forceful, energetic, bright, independent woman, unlike women of his rank among whom he is expected to select a mate : shallow Miss Bingley or sickly Anne de Bourgh. I think the fact that's she's so unusual and different makes her irresistible in his eyes : he is described as being " bewitched " by her.

And an unusual, gifted person like Darcy would be longing for an unusual, gifted woman like Elizabeth.

[sciencefan]

Why do you think that Darcy is intuitive ( "N" is for intuition, right ? ) ? I thought that he was a " Sensor " who needed all the information to understand a person ? After all, he didn't like Lizzy right away, but upon gradually getting to know her ?

Anyways, I think Darcy likes Elizabeth first for her appearance, then for her liveliness and then her mind. ( However, forgetting the sequence of events here ). I think that when he's admiring her " wild " look and healthy glow, he doesn't just think of her love of nature, but he also sees her as an energetic, lively person as evidenced by her love of brisk walking. This particular trait sets her apart from women of his circle who are raised to be formal and poised rather than lively.

As he himself tells her upon his 2nd proposal, he admired her for " the liveliness of [ her ] mind ". When at Netherfield while Jane is sick and later at the Netherfield ball, they do a lot of intellectual sparring. Since Darcy is highly intelligent himself, it's understandable that this trait in Elizabeth would appeal to him greatly. She is his intellectual equal, unlike the many " insipid " women of his circle.

Moreover, this sparring is performed with a lot spirit and aplomb on Elizabeth's part which, I imagine, also charms Darcy. He's also impressed with Elizabeth's ability to stand up for herself and to hold her own with an aristocrat like himself, even though she belongs to a lower strata of gentry and despite the fact that he looked down on her initially. I suspect he also welcomes this approach of Elizabeth's to him ( as opposed to deferential treatment he's used to ) because, being a strong person, he feels challenged and energized by it.

All of the above traits, although attractive in themselves, raise her above the women not only of her class, but of his as well. To summarize, she impresses him as a forceful, energetic, bright, independent woman, unlike women of his rank among whom he is expected to select a mate : shallow Miss Bingley or sickly Anne de Bourgh. I think the fact that's she's so unusual and different makes her irresistible in his eyes : he is described as being " bewitched " by her.

And an unusual, gifted person like Darcy would be longing for an unusual, gifted woman like Elizabeth.
I guess I thought he was an INTJ because he’s so
difficult to please, and he is so fastidious,
but he could be an ISTJ based on his steadiness of character,
and the fact that the housekeeper said she had never had a
harsh word from him
because ISTJs are very steady and usually calm.

Thanks for explaining all that.
I just think it's weird how he didn't think she was beautiful at first.

Good point about the sickly Miss de Bourgh and the shallow Miss Bingley.

[olichka]

I guess I thought he was an INTJ because he’s so
difficult to please, and he is so fastidious,
but he could be an ISTJ based on his steadiness of character,
and the fact that the housekeeper said she had never had a
harsh word from him
because ISTJs are very steady and usually calm.

Thanks for explaining all that.
I just think it's weird how he didn't think she was beautiful at first.

Good point about the sickly Miss de Bourgh and the shallow Miss Bingley.


So what is "N" in the INTJ --- can you please explain ? And what is an " S " ?

I think Darcy only thought of her as " tolerable " at first because he was probably very annoyed at that assembly by the society on the whole, so he was picking on everyone. Also, I don't think that Elizabeth is considered beautiful in the book, but just lovely, certainly not exceptionally beautiful ( like Jane ), and to Darcy with his high standards that was not enough at first. I think he may have been somewhat right when he said that she wasn't anything out of the ordinary--she was just an attractive and a lovely woman.

It's her intelligence that attracts him more, and it's worth noting that he finds her face rendered pretty by her intelligent eyes : so her intelligence is her beauty.

[sciencefan]

So what is "N" in the INTJ --- can you please explain ? And what is an " S " ?

I think Darcy only thought of her as " tolerable " at first because he was probably very annoyed at that assembly by the society on the whole, so he was picking on everyone. Also, I don't think that Elizabeth is considered beautiful in the book, but just lovely, certainly not exceptionally beautiful ( like Jane ), and to Darcy with his high standards that was not enough at first. I think he may have been somewhat right when he said that she wasn't anything out of the ordinary--she was just an attractive and a lovely woman.

It's her intelligence that attracts him more, and it's worth noting that he finds her face rendered pretty by her intelligent eyes : so her intelligence is her beauty.
"Occupied in observing Mr. Bingley's attentions to her sister, Elizabeth was far from suspecting that she was herself becoming an object of some interest in the eyes of his friend. Mr. Darcy had at first scarcely allowed her to be pretty; he had looked at her without admiration at the ball; and when they next met, he looked at her only to criticise. But no sooner had he made it clear to himself and his friends that she had hardly a good feature in her face, than he began to find it was rendered uncommonly intelligent by the beautiful expression of her dark eyes. To this discovery succeeded some others equally mortifying. Though he had detected with a critical eye more than one failure of perfect symmetry in her form, he was forced to acknowledge her figure to be light and pleasing; and in spite of his asserting that her manners were not those of the fashionable world, he was caught by their easy playfulness. Of this she was perfectly unaware; -- to her he was only the man who made himself agreeable no where, and who had not thought her handsome enough to dance with."


You are right:
"S" is sensing and "N" is Intuition.
They stand for the way a person takes in information,
whether in bits and pieces of fact [S],
or whether globally in one big picture [N].
We can't really isolate one dimension of the personality for our purposes here because the other dimensions interact with each other

An ISTJ is a Phlegmatic personality which is much more social by nature than an INTJ which is more Choleric by nature, and almost anti-social.
And I didn't think ISTJ were given to haughtiness, which INTJs are.
Except for those two things, Darcy seems more ISTJ.
Besides, INTJs are naturally very selfish, and I don't think Darcy is, or else his housekeeper would not have been able to say all those nice things about him.
He could be either; perhaps he is a mix.

Here are some descriptions of the types:
http://similarminds.com/software.html

[parpaing]

AFTER a week spent in professions of love and schemes of felicity, Mr. Collins was called from his amiable Charlotte by the arrival of Saturday. ch 25
[COLOR="Blue"]Charlotte spent a week entertaining him and making herself amiable to him.
She apparently finds herself up to the task of being his companion.

...and [Elizabeth] rather looked with wonder at her friend that she could have so cheerful an air, with such a companion. When Mr. Collins said any thing of which his wife might reasonably be ashamed, which certainly was not unseldom, she involuntarily turned her eye on Charlotte. Once or twice she could discern a faint blush; but in general Charlotte wisely did not hear.
Charlotte has a cheerful air.
She ignores what she has no control over.

To work in his garden was one of his most respectable pleasures; and Elizabeth admired the command of countenance with which Charlotte talked of the healthfulness of the exercise, and owned she encouraged it as much as possible.
Here we see that he probably does pester her, and she encourages him to pursue other interests.

When Mr. Collins could be forgotten, there was really a great air of comfort throughout, and by Charlotte's evident enjoyment of it, Elizabeth supposed he must be often forgotten.
Perhaps this is true, and my point is this: in those days, that’s what women did, but again this is Elizabeth’s reading of it because that’s how SHE would feel about it.

``Lady Catherine is a very respectable, sensible woman indeed,'' added Charlotte, ``and a most attentive neighbour.''
``Very true, my dear, that is exactly what I say. She is the sort of woman whom one cannot regard with too much deference.''
Charlotte has learned to parrot her husband to make him happy.

... Elizabeth, in the solitude of her chamber, had to meditate upon Charlotte's degree of contentment, to understand her address in guiding, and composure in bearing with her husband, and to acknowledge that it was all done very well.
Charlotte does have a degree of contentment; she guides him and bears with him, and she does it all very well. Surely it must take a woman of a certain mild and steady temperament to do that.

...for the chief of the time between breakfast and dinner was now passed by him either at work in the garden, or in reading and writing, and looking out of window in his own book room, which fronted the road. The room in which the ladies sat was backwards. Elizabeth at first had rather wondered that Charlotte should not prefer the dining parlour for common use; it was a better sized room, and had a pleasanter aspect; but she soon saw that her friend had an excellent reason for what she did, for Mr. Collins would undoubtedly have been much less in his own apartment, had they sat in one equally lively; and she gave Charlotte credit for the arrangement.
Charlotte has to work at gaining her peace and quiet.


``My dear Charlotte and I have but one mind and one way of thinking. There is in every thing a most remarkable resemblance of character and ideas between us. We seem to have been designed for each other.''
This is remarkable. I assumed it was true, or at least half true.
Charlotte does an excellent job of making her husband happy.
She has accepted her lot in life with the patience and grace of a saint.
And perhaps that is all owing to her expectations for as we know she had neither a high opinion of men or of marriage.

Elizabeth could safely say that it was a great happiness where that was the case, and with equal sincerity could add that she firmly believed and rejoiced in his domestic comforts. She was not sorry, however, to have the recital of them interrupted by the entrance of the lady from whom they sprung. Poor Charlotte! -- it was melancholy to leave her to such society! -- But she had chosen it with her eyes open; and though evidently regretting that her visitors were to go, she did not seem to ask for compassion. Her home and her housekeeping, her parish and her poultry, and all their dependent concerns, had not yet lost their charms. ch 28
Charlotte seems satisfied with her new life- and so is Mr. Collins.
She is making the best of her situation.

Greetings, sorry to intrude in your little discussion and to come back to something previously said ;)
I'm a French student, studying Pride and Prejudice for the national exam to become an English Teacher.

I read some of your points which were very interesting, nevertheless I quite disagree with you on Charlotte and Collins' marriage.

On the one hand we have Mr Collins who is a flat character, completely predictable, while Charlotte is a complex character, with her own doubts, willings to make sacrifices to find a spouse. While Jane Austen is very ironic regarding Mr Collins, it is always some kind of dramatic irony, in order for us, the reader, to have a laugh, because that's what Mr Collins is about: with his vision of grandeur, he is just a laughable fool. Charlotte though, is the fatalistic "old" woman who knows that her best time to find a husband is long gone and has to pick one, whoever is willing to marry her.

It's not Mr Collins who chose her, she chose him, and made him think that he was choosing her actually. He probably doesn't have any real affection for her, but his vanity was flattered by her attention. She is just trying her best to please him, to get married, period. And I eman she says it herself: marriage is the only legal way for a poor woman to afford financial safety. Of course she opposes that to prostitution and of course, we cannot but think in CHarlotte's case that marriage is nothing more than legal prostitution.

It's true that Lizzy's point of view is biased, but it is really close to Jane Austen's in my opinion. When we read the letter Mr Collins sent to Mr Bennet ater Lydia's elopement, we cannot but despise such a dreadful character,a dn there are several instances where he acts, excuse my French, like a total moron.

That's why I think that Charlotte is far from happy, she just decides to close her eyes and ears to Mr Collins's silliness.

Marriage was the only real choice a woman had at that time, and sometimes they couldn't even choose. I think that's why their marriage is so important, because it's emblematic of the general view of marriage at this time: you just have to read the highly ironic first sentence of the novel to be convinced that some women are desperate to find a man, any man, just to get married.

I think Charlotte's marriage and Mr Bennet's marriage are quite similar in the end: they both end up lonely, annoyed with their spouse's silliness, but while Mr Bennet chooses sarcasm as a diversion for his failed marriage, she rather shuts herself in some kind of muteness (dunno if that word's correct, but I guess you'll understand my point ;)).

In my opinion Jane and Bingley's marriage is too much like a fairytale marriage, the characters are too shallow, too naive to experience a relationshipa s strong as Darcy and Elizabeth.

[parpaing]

wrong button, quote instead of edit, sorry :p

[olichka]

"Occupied in observing Mr. Bingley's attentions to her sister, Elizabeth was far from suspecting that she was herself becoming an object of some interest in the eyes of his friend. Mr. Darcy had at first scarcely allowed her to be pretty; he had looked at her without admiration at the ball; and when they next met, he looked at her only to criticise. But no sooner had he made it clear to himself and his friends that she had hardly a good feature in her face, than he began to find it was rendered uncommonly intelligent by the beautiful expression of her dark eyes. To this discovery succeeded some others equally mortifying. Though he had detected with a critical eye more than one failure of perfect symmetry in her form, he was forced to acknowledge her figure to be light and pleasing; and in spite of his asserting that her manners were not those of the fashionable world, he was caught by their easy playfulness. Of this she was perfectly unaware; -- to her he was only the man who made himself agreeable no where, and who had not thought her handsome enough to dance with."


You are right:
"S" is sensing and "N" is Intuition.
They stand for the way a person takes in information,
whether in bits and pieces of fact [S],
or whether globally in one big picture [N].
We can't really isolate one dimension of the personality for our purposes here because the other dimensions interact with each other

An ISTJ is a Phlegmatic personality which is much more social by nature than an INTJ which is more Choleric by nature, and almost anti-social.
And I didn't think ISTJ were given to haughtiness, which INTJs are.
Except for those two things, Darcy seems more ISTJ.
Besides, INTJs are naturally very selfish, and I don't think Darcy is, or else his housekeeper would not have been able to say all those nice things about him.
He could be either; perhaps he is a mix.

Here are some descriptions of the types:
http://similarminds.com/software.html

I guess I reversed some points by saying that he found her face "pretty" due to the intelligent expression of her eyes, when it's the other way around. However, the meaning is still the same : it's the intelligence in her appearance that he finds arresting. And it's not her eyes themselves that are beautiful, but their expression.

Even later on, when he begins to like her, he still only acknowledges her figure to be "light" and "pleasing", not outstanding. He also seems to still think that her figure isn't perfectly proportional.

He's also attracted to her playful manners which sets her apart from the women in her circle.

All in all, although Darcy certainly finds Elizabeth attractive physically ( and she does have many attractive physical features--- I didn't mean to say in my previous post that he didn't find her attractive physically, only that he didn't think she was beautiful in the classical sense ), it's her substance ( intelligence and character ) that eventually wins him over.


What do you mean by a " phlegmatic " and " choleric " with regard to sociability ? I thought that a phlegmatic person would be too listless to be sociable, whereas the choleric, being more expressive, would be the more sociable one ?

[olichka]

she says it herself: marriage is the only legal way for a poor woman to afford financial safety. Of course she opposes that to prostitution and of course, we cannot but think in CHarlotte's case that marriage is nothing more than legal prostitution.


It's true that Lizzy's point of view is biased, but it is really close to Jane Austen's in my opinion. When we read the letter Mr Collins sent to Mr Bennet ater Lydia's elopement, we cannot but despise such a dreadful character,a dn there are several instances where he acts, excuse my French, like a total moron.



Jane Austen did consider marriage of convenience as a form of prostitution. Even if Charlotte finds Mr. Collins only moderately annoying, she still doesn't love him, and sleeping with someone you don't love, even if you respect them is akin to prostitution. We don't get the sense that Charlotte is at least physically attracted to Collins, either.

[sciencefan]

Greetings, sorry to intrude in your little discussion and to come back to something previously said ;)
I'm a French student, studying Pride and Prejudice for the national exam to become an English Teacher.

I read some of your points which were very interesting, nevertheless I quite disagree with you on Charlotte and Collins' marriage.

On the one hand we have Mr Collins who is a flat character, completely predictable, while Charlotte is a complex character, with her own doubts, willings to make sacrifices to find a spouse. While Jane Austen is very ironic regarding Mr Collins, it is always some kind of dramatic irony, in order for us, the reader, to have a laugh, because that's what Mr Collins is about: with his vision of grandeur, he is just a laughable fool. Charlotte though, is the fatalistic "old" woman who knows that her best time to find a husband is long gone and has to pick one, whoever is willing to marry her.

It's not Mr Collins who chose her, she chose him, and made him think that he was choosing her actually. He probably doesn't have any real affection for her, but his vanity was flattered by her attention. She is just trying her best to please him, to get married, period. And I eman she says it herself: marriage is the only legal way for a poor woman to afford financial safety. Of course she opposes that to prostitution and of course, we cannot but think in CHarlotte's case that marriage is nothing more than legal prostitution.

It's true that Lizzy's point of view is biased, but it is really close to Jane Austen's in my opinion. When we read the letter Mr Collins sent to Mr Bennet ater Lydia's elopement, we cannot but despise such a dreadful character,a dn there are several instances where he acts, excuse my French, like a total moron.

That's why I think that Charlotte is far from happy, she just decides to close her eyes and ears to Mr Collins's silliness.

Marriage was the only real choice a woman had at that time, and sometimes they couldn't even choose. I think that's why their marriage is so important, because it's emblematic of the general view of marriage at this time: you just have to read the highly ironic first sentence of the novel to be convinced that some women are desperate to find a man, any man, just to get married.

I think Charlotte's marriage and Mr Bennet's marriage are quite similar in the end: they both end up lonely, annoyed with their spouse's silliness, but while Mr Bennet chooses sarcasm as a diversion for his failed marriage, she rather shuts herself in some kind of muteness (dunno if that word's correct, but I guess you'll understand my point ;)).

In my opinion Jane and Bingley's marriage is too much like a fairytale marriage, the characters are too shallow, too naive to experience a relationshipa s strong as Darcy and Elizabeth.

You are quite right.

[sciencefan]

I guess I reversed some points by saying that he found her face "pretty" due to the intelligent expression of her eyes, when it's the other way around. However, the meaning is still the same : it's the intelligence in her appearance that he finds arresting. And it's not her eyes themselves that are beautiful, but their expression.

Even later on, when he begins to like her, he still only acknowledges her figure to be "light" and "pleasing", not outstanding. He also seems to still think that her figure isn't perfectly proportional.

He's also attracted to her playful manners which sets her apart from the women in her circle.

All in all, although Darcy certainly finds Elizabeth attractive physically ( and she does have many attractive physical features--- I didn't mean to say in my previous post that he didn't find her attractive physically, only that he didn't think she was beautiful in the classical sense ), it's her substance ( intelligence and character ) that eventually wins him over.


What do you mean by a " phlegmatic " and " choleric " with regard to sociability ? I thought that a phlegmatic person would be too listless to be sociable, whereas the choleric, being more expressive, would be the more sociable one ?

I was taught that the Phlegmatic [SJ] temperament is first and foremostly relationship-oriented.
The Choleric [NT] temperament is more task-oriented, I believe.

Here is a good Personality Comparison Chart (http://armchair_academic.homestead.com/PersonalityComp.html):

[olichka]

To continue my previous post: ....

Other than that, Charlotte's marriage isn't that bad. She's married to a person with a social status and subsequently acquires that status herself ( a minister's wife ), and she does have interesting duties and occupation ( such as her parish ). In other words, her marriage is satisfying externally and socially, as a form of role--playing.

Moreover, she is certainly financially secure.

However, it cannot be satisfying internally ( or personally ), for Mr. Collins can be really annoying, obsequious and even spiteful, even though she tries hard to understand and adjust to him.

All in all, she's married to a social role and a house, not the man.

[sciencefan]

To continue my previous post: ....

Other than that, Charlotte's marriage isn't that bad. She's married to a person with a social status and subsequently acquires that status herself ( a minister's wife ), and she does have interesting duties and occupation ( such as her parish ). In other words, her marriage is satisfying externally and socially, as a form of role--playing.

However, it cannot be satisfying internally ( or personally ), for Mr. Collins can be really annoying, obsequious and even spiteful, even though she tries hard to understand and adjust to him.

All in all, she's married to a social role and a house, not the man.I agree,
and I would not be surprised that such arragements are still going on, even today.

[olichka]

I agree,
and I would not be surprised that such arragements are still going on, even today.


That's true, even today arrangements such as this one can still happen because single women without families are still not that much respected.

I wanted to add in my previous post that Charlotte's satisfaction with her lot and fulfillment in life will probably increase, once she acquires a family ( and in her case, I think she should get at least 6 kids ! ). This way she can create her own world and a new sphere of influence and activity, as well as be emotionally satisfied from the involvement in her children's lives. Mr. Collins can become even more " forgot " !!!

So even if her marriage does have a salient aspect-- being a form of prostitution--it's still workable. Realistically, what other options did a woman of her social and economic position in the early 19th century have ? Would being a poor old maid with no occupation or position in life better ?

It's only to Jane Austen, a high-minded, prudish woman who would make no compromises ( and I'm sure she wasn't the only woman at that time who had similar ideas ) that this type of marriage was completely unacceptable. But then she did have her writing.

[sciencefan]

That's true, even today arrangements such as this one can still happen because single women without families are still not that much respected.

I wanted to add in my previous post that Charlotte's satisfaction with her lot and fulfillment in life will probably increase, once she acquires a family ( and in her case, I think she should get at least 6 kids ! ). This way she can create her own world and a new sphere of influence and activity, as well as be emotionally satisfied from the involvement in her children's lives. Mr. Collins can become even more " forgot " !!!

So even if her marriage does have a salient aspect-- being a form of prostitution--it's still workable. Realistically, what other options did a woman of her social and economic position in the early 19th century have ? Would being a poor old maid with no occupation or position in life better ?

It's only to Jane Austen, a high-minded, prudish woman who would make no compromises ( and I'm sure she wasn't the only woman at that time who had similar ideas ) that this type of marriage was completely unacceptable. But then she did have her writing.

I agree.
Charlotte's marriage wasn't begun on the best footing,
but there's no reason why after time, and the comfort of familiarity,
she and Mr. Collins can't have a reasonably good marriage.

My original point was that in my opinion Charlotte's marriage
wasn't the worst in the book;
I think being married to a gambling, lazy, mooching, lying,
womanizing pig (who doesn't love me)- as Lydia is- is much worse.

[olichka]

I agree.
Charlotte's marriage wasn't begun on the best footing,
but there's no reason why after time, and the comfort of familiarity,
she and Mr. Collins can't have a reasonably good marriage.

My original point was that in my opinion Charlotte's marriage
wasn't the worst in the book;
I think being married to a gambling, lazy, mooching, lying,
womanizing pig (who doesn't love me)- as Lydia is- is much worse.

I totally agree here. Lydia's marriage was better than Charlotte's only at the beginning, based as it was on attraction, admiration and passion. However, Charlotte's will improve with time (particularly since Charlotte is making a lot of effort ) and will provide a respectability and a stable environment both for herself and her children. I dread to see how Lydia and Wickham's children will turn out !!!

Also, whatever Mr. Collins' faults, he's not a pervert, nor does he appear to be passionate, so that even though Charlotte is not attracted to him, at least he won't be making many demands on her, nor will she be debased in the bedroom. So that even in this aspect, her marriage is not something to dread. I actually wouldn't say that it can be classified so extremely as " prostitution ".

[Matrim Cuathon]

if you consider the circumstances of women in her position at the time prostitution is much too harsh a description of her marriage. Lydia definitely made the worst selection of husbands and therefore life situations and she is incredibly lucky that Darcy in his affection for Elizabeth assisted them so much.

Based on the descriptions of people's improvements from their "society" and spouses Mr. Collins can be improved to a reasonable extent with some effort.
This would be especially true is lizzie could be prevailed upon to have darcy speak to him. chances of this are small but here is what i mean:

suppose that Mr. Collins were removed from the influence of Lady Cartherine. In the normal course of events under a patron such as Mr. Darcy and possibly if Lizzie gets Darcy to talk to him one on one, it could be explained to him that his fawning is disagreeble and only Lady C's type of person is flattered by it. Given a marginally concerted effort by Lizzie and Charlotte he could be made significantly more tolerable.

of course this isnt a sure thing because thought patterns are difficult to beat, but there is a decent chance of its success. i understand that neither lizzie, charlotte, or darcy would likely be persuaded to attempt this, but it would be interesting to see if it were possible. but even Charlotte's efforts alone could produce a decided change if she went about it the right way. I don't think that
Mr. Collins is so terrible that he cannot be made tolerble. he actually ahs some things to recommend him, emotion aside:
1. he wont beat his wife
2. his living and that of any family is relatively assured even without Darcy being persuaded to help
3. he really does want to be pleasing even if he goes about it the wrong way becuase of Lady C.'s negative influence
4. He has no serious character flaws such as a temper, or a terrible sense of humor
5. more that i dont have time to set to type

[sciencefan]

I was having a hard time believing that Jane Austen would even USE such a word as prostitution, so just for the record, I tried to find proof that she actually used that word, or used ANY harsh language to describe marriages made for financial reasons, and I could find none.

What I DID find was a radical anti-social “grandmother of feminism” who is credited with describing ALL marriage as legal prostitution: Mary Wollstonecraft, who by the way, had a baby out of wedlock, and later became pregnant again by another man, who then married her.
“Mary Wollstonecraft's views even shocked fellow radicals.”
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wwollstonecraft.htm

Further, I found an article trying to persuade readers that Mary Wollstonecraft and Jane Austen thought alike on the issue of marriage, but nowhere was the idea of marriage as legal prostitution listed as a thought that they shared. As a matter of fact, the connections made were superficial.
There is no record of Austen having ever read any of Wollstonecraft's writing.A Feminist Connection: Jane Austen and Mary Wollstonecraft
http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol25no1/ascarelli.html


Therefore it is my opinion that this is probably one of those urban legends that people believe about Jane Austen, and I’m starting to believe it’s not true. It smacks of “revisionism” to me.
I personally don’t believe Jane Austen was that radical or that vicious.
Her writing is too innocuous for that.
At worst, we can see that Austen understood marriage as an economic institution, which it most certainly was, but NOT as prostitution.

I don’t have a problem with being proved wrong, but it will have to come from Austen’s own pen, not someone else’s opinion of her writing.

[sciencefan]

if you consider the circumstances of women in her position at the time prostitution is much too harsh a description of her marriage. Lydia definitely made the worst selection of husbands and therefore life situations and she is incredibly lucky that Darcy in his affection for Elizabeth assisted them so much.

Based on the descriptions of people's improvements from their "society" and spouses Mr. Collins can be improved to a reasonable extent with some effort.
This would be especially true is lizzie could be prevailed upon to have darcy speak to him. chances of this are small but here is what i mean:

suppose that Mr. Collins were removed from the influence of Lady Cartherine. In the normal course of events under a patron such as Mr. Darcy and possibly if Lizzie gets Darcy to talk to him one on one, it could be explained to him that his fawning is disagreeble and only Lady C's type of person is flattered by it. Given a marginally concerted effort by Lizzie and Charlotte he could be made significantly more tolerable.

of course this isnt a sure thing because thought patterns are difficult to beat, but there is a decent chance of its success. i understand that neither lizzie, charlotte, or darcy would likely be persuaded to attempt this, but it would be interesting to see if it were possible. but even Charlotte's efforts alone could produce a decided change if she went about it the right way. I don't think that
Mr. Collins is so terrible that he cannot be made tolerble. he actually ahs some things to recommend him, emotion aside:
1. he wont beat his wife
2. his living and that of any family is relatively assured even without Darcy being persuaded to help
3. he really does want to be pleasing even if he goes about it the wrong way becuase of Lady C.'s negative influence
4. He has no serious character flaws such as a temper, or a terrible sense of humor
5. more that i dont have time to set to type
I agree that Mr. Collins is probably at least teachable.
You give a very interesting scenario.
There's no reason to believe their marriage could not have turned out well.
And truly, before my mind was poisoned with accusations of prostitution, I myself thought it would turn out just fine, based on what Austen had written.

[Matrim Cuathon]

I was having a hard time believing that Jane Austen would even USE such a word as prostitution, so just for the record, I tried to find proof that she actually used that word, or used ANY harsh language to describe marriages made for financial reasons, and I could find none.

What I DID find was a radical anti-social “grandmother of feminism” who is credited with describing ALL marriage as legal prostitution: Mary Wollstonecraft, who by the way, had a baby out of wedlock, and later became pregnant again by another man, who then married her.
“Mary Wollstonecraft's views even shocked fellow radicals.”
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Wwollstonecraft.htm

Further, I found an article trying to persuade readers that Mary Wollstonecraft and Jane Austen thought alike on the issue of marriage, but nowhere was the idea of marriage as legal prostitution listed as a thought that they shared. As a matter of fact, the connections made were superficial.
There is no record of Austen having ever read any of Wollstonecraft's writing.A Feminist Connection: Jane Austen and Mary Wollstonecraft
http://www.jasna.org/persuasions/on-line/vol25no1/ascarelli.html


Therefore it is my opinion that this is probably one of those urban legends that people believe about Jane Austen, and I’m starting to believe it’s not true. It smacks of “revisionism” to me.
I personally don’t believe Jane Austen was that radical or that vicious.
Her writing is too innocuous for that.
At worst, we can see that Austen understood marriage as an economic institution, which it most certainly was, but NOT as prostitution.

I don’t have a problem with being proved wrong, but it will have to come from Austen’s own pen, not someone else’s opinion of her writing.


well, im certainly happy to consider that Austen was intelligent and reasonable.

[Matrim Cuathon]

I agree that Mr. Collins is probably at least teachable.
You give a very interesting scenario.
There's no reason to believe their marriage could not have turned out well.
And truly, before my mind was poisoned with accusations of prostitution, I myself thought it would turn out just fine, based on what Austen had written.

well, we see that Collins has no massive problems. The main thing i disliked was his fawning on important people. Its probable that given the right encouragement he can be taught to treat themwith respect and deference of a more reasonable measure.

[sciencefan]

well, we see that Collins has no massive problems. The main thing i disliked was his fawning on important people. Its probable that given the right encouragement he can be taught to treat themwith respect and deference of a more reasonable measure.
I agree with you, and that is such an excellent word for what he does: fawn.
Apparently it came from his lowly background, and his recent success at having come into money, as it were.
On the one hand, I don't think Mr. Darcy would ever appreciate Mr. Collins' fawning, but I think perhaps Lady Catherine desires it.
Funny thing, people's pride.

[Matrim Cuathon]

isnt it :)
that's probably becuase Darcy is secure in himself and Catherine desires validation, she wants approval of her actions. Collins is a sycophant. a yes man. and she can be secure in his regard simply by "condescending" to treat him well and in the bargain she gets the feeling of being generous. Collins doesnt understand that he provides her with something infinitely more valueble than what she gives in exchange.

[olichka]

And truly, before my mind was poisoned with accusations of prostitution, I myself thought it would turn out just fine, based on what Austen had written.

Actually, sciencefan, you yourself made a reference to someone's statement in their essay that this was Jane Austen's opinion ( in your very first post ). Perhaps I became influenced by that, or perhaps I read that fact in one of the biographies.

I do remember, however, specifically reading that Jane Austen had a difficult time finding a husband, due to her lack of wealth, finally receiving a proposal from a childhood friend at the age of 27 ( Charlotte's age ). At 21,he was younger than Jane ( like Mr. Collins who was 25 ), and was an heir to a substantial estate with a stately home which would have allowed Jane to live in luxury and to become an influential hostess in the area.

[olichka]

He was a tall, strongly built young man (like Mr.Collins ) and in many sources he is described as being shy, awkward and having a stutter which made social life difficult and occasionally made him aggressive. Some sources mention him as being a graduate of Oxford, yet others describe him as "shambling" and "intellectually blunt". The main idea is that of a socially awkward and esthetically unappealing young man.

Jane at first accepted him, but then refused him because, although fond of him as a childhood friend, she didn't love him as a husband. This experience embittered her ( again, this is from a source ), since she came so close to a life of economic ease and influence, but which would have involved being married without love and to a man who evoked feelings of squeamishness in her. ( Mr.Collins, although socially awkward in a different way--he is obsequious and much too talkative---also evokes squeamishness ).

The point is , Jane based Charlotte/Collins situation on her own experience ( I think there are many similarities ), describing a type of marriage she disapproved of---that without love and contracted for the sake of economic survival, a "preservative from want". Although she may not have considered it as prostitution, it does have contain elements of bitterness, at least in the initial stages and even though,on the whole, it's a workable and positive situation.

[olichka]

Actually, after re-reading pertinent passages, I'm becoming even more convinced that Charlotte's marriage is a sensible and a workable choice.

In the book, Mr.Collins is described as being tall and heavily-built and having grave, formal manners which creates the impression of an imposing appearance and behaviour, even if obsequious around Lady Catherine---thus, not exactly somebody physically unappealing, even if not having the sex appeal of the handsome Darcy, Bingley or Wickham.

As someone already said, with Charlotte's and Darcy's help, it's possible that positive changes can be worked in him, particularly since he's still a very young man (being only 25 ). It's obvious that his ridiculous behaviour is caused by a combination of deficiency in upbringing and of his coming to an important position relatively early in life. His behaviour in many ways is just immaturity and lack of life experience : thus, being raised in poverty by an illiterate father who beat him explains why he's so much in awe of Lady Catherine ( a mother figure ?) who's rich and patronizing.

I think that Mr.Collins' character suffered a lot from various productions of "Pride and Prejudice", particularly the BBC's one (with Colin Firth ). There he is portrayed as a man of very small stature, making him look ridiculous and insignificant. We also are not given his background, so we don't see any justification for his behaviour.

This unflattering portrayal may be in part responsible for some of us ( including me ) judging him as an inadequate husband for Charlotte.

[Silas]

My,my, I certainly did not expect this thread to extend this far, but it is very interesting to see the posts thus far. I have to say I again I really appreciate everyone so far for their input; there seems to be so many useful points, I'm not sure what to consider in my paper lol. Well, like I said before, keep up the posts because it is very interesting to see this topic from different perspectives, greatly appreciate it!

[Matrim Cuathon]

Actually, after re-reading pertinent passages, I'm becoming even more convinced that Charlotte's marriage is a sensible and a workable choice.

In the book, Mr.Collins is described as being tall and heavily-built and having grave, formal manners which creates the impression of an imposing appearance and behaviour, even if obsequious around Lady Catherine.

As someone already said, with Charlotte's and Darcy's help, it's possible that positive changes can be worked in him, particularly since he's still a very young man (being only 25 ). It's obvious that his ridiculous behaviour is caused by a combination of deficiency in upbringing and of his coming to an important position relatively early in life. His behaviour in many ways is just immaturity and lack of life experience : thus, being raised in poverty by an illiterate father who beat him explains why he's so much in awe of Lady Catherine ( a mother figure ?)
who's rich and patronizing.

I think that Mr.Collins' character suffered a lot from various productions of "Pride and Prejudice", particularly the BBC's one (with Colin Firth ). There he is portrayed as a man of very small stature, making him look ridiculous and insignificant. We also are not given his background, so we don't see any justification for his behaviour.

This unflattering portrayal may be in part responsible for some of us ( including me ) judging him as an inadequate husband for Charlotte.

well youve painted a more flattering picture of him than i would have done, but i agree with most of your comments. totally didnt think about a mother figure. i dont think that she is a good mother figure though. Darcy on the other hand is a perfect object of respect for him. he could clean up that fawning attitude quickly i think.

[parpaing]

Darcy on the other hand is a perfect object of respect for him. he could clean up that fawning attitude quickly i think.

I don't really know about that, I think that Mr Collins is way too vain to be "corrected" by Darcy. For exemple, the way he addresses him at the ball (in Meryton I think), without any prior introduction, that's a real lack of respect for good manners, and it points out the fact that he is over-confident and that he considers his own rank higher than it really is.

But it's true that the films tend to portray him as a small character, who looks clumsy and ridiculous, and they turn him into an even more despicable character.

I don't think that Jane Austen would have clearly said that Charlotte's marriage was like prostitution, which is only evoked implicitely, but if you think about it: she doesn't love him, she is ashamed of him, and she feels better when he's gardening, reading or whatever, as long as he's not near. From our modern perspective, you would almost call that prostitution: you're giving away your body in exchange for financial safety. But it was obviously not considered like prostitution at that time, especially when we know that a successful marriage was a marriage of interest more than love.

I could also imagine, as Sciencefan (I think) mentioned earlier, that Mr Collins and Charlotte's marriage is the marriage Jane Asuten could have had and refused. She probably felt quite desperate like Charlotte since her sentimental life was a mess, but she was rather looking for her soulmate, and Charlotte's marriage could be a supposition of what her marriage with her childhood friend could have been like.
But I don't remember the actual dates of the proposal she refused, and she revised Pride and Prejudice so many times that it's hard to tell to which extent it could be linked.

[sciencefan]

Actually, sciencefan, you yourself made a reference to someone's statement in their essay that this was Jane Austen's opinion ( in your very first post ). Perhaps I became influenced by that, or perhaps I read that fact in one of the biographies.

I do remember, however, specifically reading that Jane Austen had a difficult time finding a husband, due to her lack of wealth, finally receiving a proposal from a childhood friend at the age of 27 ( Charlotte's age ). At 21,he was younger than Jane ( like Mr. Collins who was 25 ), and was an heir to a substantial estate with a stately home which would have allowed Jane to live in luxury and to become an influential hostess in the area.

I know I originally posted that.
I copied and pasted the opinion from an introductory page on this web site.
I was only trying to help Silas at the time, and I had never personally studied the subject myself.
Now that I have looked into it myself, I reject the idea that she ever used that word, or that she intended to be that critical.
She was writing a fairy tale, for goodness sake.
A man who loves you in spite of all your faults and will sacrifice everything to have you?!
Darcy is a fairy tale!
I think the revisionists have misunderstood Austen.

I revert back to what I said in the beginning.
I think Charlotte and Mr. Collins got along just fine.
They were both very logical, as was their method of choosing a mate, and that doesn’t make it wrong. They BOTH married for socio-economic reasons. That was all that Charlotte or Mr. Collins needed out of life or marriage. It worked for them.
I think it was a true reflection of how marriages came about in those days.

Although Elizabeth would have died 10,000 deaths being married to him, Charlotte who had a different temperament and different expectations, was more easily able to get along with him.
This goes back to how a person defines a marriage relationship.
The definitions back then were very different than they are now.
And just because Elizabeth couldn’t be happy with Mr. Collins, doesn’t mean Charlotte couldn’t.

Marriage was an economic institution at that time.
Many marriages were arranged, and based on money.
When your parents arranged your marriage, they did not care about intellectual compatibility or looks, or chemical attraction.

It seems to me that Austen tried to put forward the idea that it would be nicer to marry for love than to marry for money, but as is quite evident with this story, many girls were forced to marry for money and not for love.

Darcy and Anne de Bourgh was a marriage arranged for money.
Wickham married Lydia for money.
Mrs. Bennett wanted Elizabeth to marry Mr. Collins for money.
She connived to get Mr. Bingley to fall in love with Jane, for money-
at first, knowing nothing about him, and not caring if Jane liked him.
And she wanted to throw her silly daughters in the way of other rich men, for money.
Apparently, money was many times the first consideration when it came to marriage.

Marriage based on physical attraction isn't always a success either- Mr. and Mrs. Bennett.

[sciencefan]

...The point is , Jane based Charlotte/Collins situation on her own experience ( I think there are many similarities ), describing a type of marriage she disapproved of---that without love and contracted for the sake of economic survival, a "preservative from want". Although she may not have considered it as prostitution, it does have contain elements of bitterness, at least in the initial stages and even though, on the whole, it's a workable and positive situation.
Thanks for sharing all that background information about Austen's beau.

I'm glad Austen didn't marry him, for both of their sakes.
Perhaps he found a different woman who was able to appreciate him.
(Or was he the one who died shortly thereafter?)

As was mentioned in the beginning, Austen described the presence of the Collins/Charlotte marriage as a dose of bitterness in an otherwise cheerful novel.
Though that whole thing with Lydia was pretty miserable, too.

Would a woman actually marry a man who made her squeamish, of her own free will? Who knows. I find it hard to believe. But then if we take into account low self-esteem and other such factors, I guess it's possible.

[sciencefan]

Actually, after re-reading pertinent passages, I'm becoming even more convinced that Charlotte's marriage is a sensible and a workable choice.

In the book, Mr.Collins is described as being tall and heavily-built and having grave, formal manners which creates the impression of an imposing appearance and behaviour, even if obsequious around Lady Catherine.

As someone already said, with Charlotte's and Darcy's help, it's possible that positive changes can be worked in him, particularly since he's still a very young man (being only 25 ). It's obvious that his ridiculous behaviour is caused by a combination of deficiency in upbringing and of his coming to an important position relatively early in life. His behaviour in many ways is just immaturity and lack of life experience : thus, being raised in poverty by an illiterate father who beat him explains why he's so much in awe of Lady Catherine ( a mother figure ?)
who's rich and patronizing.

I think that Mr.Collins' character suffered a lot from various productions of "Pride and Prejudice", particularly the BBC's one (with Colin Firth ). There he is portrayed as a man of very small stature, making him look ridiculous and insignificant. We also are not given his background, so we don't see any justification for his behaviour.

This unflattering portrayal may be in part responsible for some of us ( including me ) judging him as an inadequate husband for Charlotte.
I agree with you about the unfortunate film portrayals of Mr. Collins.
The Kiera Knightly Mr. Collins was even worse since the director believed Mr. Collins to be a sexual animal, which I do not see at all.

Those who are abused in childhood tend to believe they deserve further abuse. Perhaps Mr. Collins feels "comfortable" being "subjugated" by Lady C. precisely because of his abusive past. I can just see him kissing up to his father all the time, just to keep the peace.

In my opinion, I think in Mr. Collins and Charlotte we find two neuroses who understand each other. They are at the same level of social immaturity.

[sciencefan]

My,my, I certainly did not expect this thread to extend this far, but it is very interesting to see the posts thus far. I have to say I again I really appreciate everyone so far for their input; there seems to be so many useful points, I'm not sure what to consider in my paper lol. Well, like I said before, keep up the posts because it is very interesting to see this topic from different perspectives, greatly appreciate it!Hey Silas,

Glad you're keeping up on the postings.

When is your paper due?

[sciencefan]

I don't really know about that, I think that Mr Collins is way too vain to be "corrected" by Darcy. For exemple, the way he addresses him at the ball (in Meryton I think), without any prior introduction, that's a real lack of respect for good manners, and it points out the fact that he is over-confident and that he considers his own rank higher than it really is.
Right. Collins has the idea that the clergy were equal to any other society, and maybe they were. I don't know anything about it. Too bad Mr. Collins has such bad manners. He just doesn't know how bad his manners are. He's too frank.


I don't think that Jane Austen would have clearly said that Charlotte's marriage was like prostitution, which is only evoked implicitely, but if you think about it: she doesn't love him, she is ashamed of him, and she feels better when he's gardening, reading or whatever, as long as he's not near. From our modern perspective, you would almost call that prostitution: you're giving away your body in exchange for financial safety. But it was obviously not considered like prostitution at that time, especially when we know that a successful marriage was a marriage of interest more than love.
This is my main point.
Is Charlotte ashamed of him, or is she sometimes embarrased by him?
I think that's an important difference.
Elizabeth's feelings are not Charlotte's.

[olichka]

I could also imagine, as Sciencefan (I think) mentioned earlier, that Mr Collins and Charlotte's marriage is the marriage Jane Asuten could have had and refused. She probably felt quite desperate like Charlotte since her sentimental life was a mess, but she was rather looking for her soulmate, and Charlotte's marriage could be a supposition of what her marriage with her childhood friend could have been like. But I don't remember the actual dates of the proposal she refused, and she revised Pride and Prejudice so many times that it's hard to tell to which extent it could be linked.


That's exactly what I meant. When Jane Austen wrote about Charlotte's marriage, she may have been speculating about the way her own marriage of convenience to a man she was squeamish about would have turned out.

She received the proposal when she was 27 yrs old, and, although I also don't remember when she made the revision, it must have been afterwards because Charlotte's age is also 27, and I do remember reading critics who mentioned that the inclusion of Charlotte's marriage was influenced by this unpleasant experience.

However, having written this, I just realized that Charlotte describes herself as " not romantic", that she's only asking a " comfortable home ". So, to what extent then is it a bitter situation in Charlotte's case ?

It would have certainly been bitter in Austen's case because she was romantic.

[olichka]

Thanks for sharing all that background information about Austen's beau.

I'm glad Austen didn't marry him, for both of their sakes.
Perhaps he found a different woman who was able to appreciate him.(Or was he the one who died shortly thereafter?)




He did find a woman who could love him, and they had 10 children together.

I think that Austen, with her high standards, fastidiousness and pride, not to mention sarcasm, would have made him miserable.

I did read an anecdote mentioning Jane's brutal reaction to a neighbour's miscarriage : she said that perhaps the poor woman miscarried out of fright when she happened to look accidentally at her husband.

[sciencefan]

He did find a woman who could love him, and they had 10 children together.

I think that Austen, with her high standards, fastidiousness and pride, not to mention sarcasm, would have made him miserable.

I did read an anecdote mentioning Jane's brutal reaction to a neighbour's miscarriage : she said that perhaps the poor woman miscarried out of fright when she happened to look accidentally at her husband.Oh dear. Jane Austen seems to have been frightfully judgemental. That's an awfully cruel remark.

[olichka]

Hi ! How's your essay coming along ?

When is it due ? How long does it have to be ? Are you a high school or university student ?

After all this, I'd like to make a few suggestions with regard to your assignment :

Since we've all been going around in circles with this discussion, due to our being influenced in our views by various sources ( critics, film adaptations, someone else's or our own unfounded opinions or hasty conclusions--- I think we're all being passionate, rather than logical in our analysis ), I suggest you re-read the ACTUAL NOVEL really carefully, with particular attention to how all the marriages turned out.

Then decide for your self whether Charlotte's marriage is that bad.

Consider her expectations--not romantic, wanting financial stability, and Mr.Collins'---only gets married for reasons of propriety necessary in his position as a minister.

Is their actual lifestyle bad ?

Is Mr.Collins all that bad ? Re-read passages detailing his exact character and his background.

Can he be influenced in a positive way ?

After establishing the true value of Charlotte's marriage, decide whether Austen herself would really consider it a bad marriage and why. Check the sources that refer to Charlotte's situation as a " dose of bitterness " ( whether Austen herself said that , or a critic ) and discuss whether her marriage warrants this description from Austen's point of view.

My God, you got me so passionate about this topic, that now I want to write an essay about it.

[sciencefan]

Hi ! How's your essay coming along ?

When is it due ? How long does it have to be ? Are you a high school or university student ?

After all this, I'd like to make a few suggestions with regard to your assignment :

Since we've all been going around in circles with this discussion, due to our being influenced in our views by various sources ( critics, film adaptations, someone else's or our own unfounded opinions or hasty conclusions--- I think we're all being passionate, rather than logical in our analysis ), I suggest you re-read the ACTUAL NOVEL really carefully, with particular attention to how all the marriages turned out.

Then decide for your self whether Charlotte's marriage is that bad.

Consider her expectations--not romantic, wanting financial stability, and Mr.Collins'---only gets married for reasons of propriety necessary in his position as a minister.

Is their actual lifestyle bad ?

Is Mr.Collins all that bad ? Re-read passages detailing his exact character and his background.

Can he be influenced in a positive way ?

After establishing the true value of Charlotte's marriage, decide whether Austen herself would really consider it a bad marriage and why. Check the sources that refer to Charlotte's situation as a " dose of bitterness " ( whether Austen herself said that , or a critic ) and discuss whether her marriage warrants this description from Austen's point of view.

My God, you got me so passionate about this topic, that now I want to write an essay about it.
tee-hee


If Silas doesn't have enough time to re-read the whole thing,
I think another good idea which I mentioned earlier is to search the online version right here on this web site.

I actually have already posted almost all the references, but there were some I left out.

If he searched for:
1- Charlotte
2- Collins
3- Miss Lucas

I'm pretty sure he would find every instance where that character appears,
and be able to collect all the views concerning marriage beforehand and their situation afterward.

That's pretty much what I did because I didn't want to get outside influences and impressions mixed up with what is actually portrayed in the book.
Being an efficiency-nut :D that is my recommendation.

[sciencefan]

I was looking around for that dose of bitterness comment, which by the way I believe is NOT an exact quote,
and I found this:
It adds a little more dimension to our discussion.

Invisible Adjunct (http://www.invisibleadjunct.com/archives/2004_03.html)
"And I think Perry is onto something when she points out that "the physical repugnance that we in the present century feel at the idea of sleeping with Mr. Collins is entirely absent in Jane Austen's treatment of the matter." Though Elizabeth Bennett is initially incredulous ("Engaged to Mr. Collins! my dear Charlotte, -- impossible!'') and dismayed, she does eventually reconcile herself to the match, and overall does not judge her friend very harshly for marrying for "a comfortable home." As Perry puts it:

The reason that Austen is able to imagine Charlotte's sleeping with Mr. Collins with equanimity is because sex had less psychological significance in eighteenth-century England than in our own post-Freudian era; it was less tied to individual identity, and more understood as an uncomplicated, straightforward physical appetite..."
Quoted from In "Sleeping With Mr. Collins" by Ruth Perry

[olichka]

A man who loves you in spite of all your faults and will sacrifice everything to have you?!
Darcy is a fairy tale!
I think the revisionists have misunderstood Austen.




When Darcy enumerated Lizzy's "faults" in his very brutally honest first proposal, he was referring to her lack of connections, wealth, position and to her ridiculous family. Those reasons were his main objections to his marriage with her, since he was very much the aristocrat, with traditional values of class, pride and family responsibility.

He loves Elizabeth for personal qualities which make her a much more vital and interesting woman than most women of his own class. A highly intelligent, energetic woman, she is his equal and his match. After struggling with himself and his class conditioning, he realizes, that it's more important for him to marry a woman that suits him personally, than to marry for wealth or status.

It's actually not that much of a fairy tale : marriages of economic and social "misalliance" did take place at that time, and at a much higher level. Didn't the son of George III ( George IV ) secretly marry a woman who was not royalty ? Elizabeth, although not of the highest aristocratic circles, is still gentry. She is attractive, intelligent, energetic and has character---all qualities that are necessary in a mistress of an exquisite estate like Pemberley. And if she exhibits more of those traits than any other woman of Darcy's aquaintance, then he is very justified in marrying her. Remember, that in his verbal duel with Miss Bingley, he refers to her as "one of the handsomest women of my aquaintance" --- he is obviously aware of her specialness.

In their marriage, I think, Austen was trying to reflect the changing values of the time---England was becoming more democratized and egalitarian, with lower aristocracy and middle class rising in importance.

[parpaing]

After all this, I'd like to make a few suggestions with regard to your assignment :

Since we've all been going around in circles with this discussion, due to our being influenced in our views by various sources ( critics, film adaptations, someone else's or our own unfounded opinions or hasty conclusions--- I think we're all being passionate, rather than logical in our analysis ), I suggest you re-read the ACTUAL NOVEL really carefully, with particular attention to how all the marriages turned out.


A very good piece of advice indeed.

I think that the tricky part with Austen is that she's so crafty in her use of irony and sarcasm that if you're digging a bit you can easily find out vey ambiguous words or sentences about almost everything. The parallel between Lizzie and Austen makes it even more difficult to differentiate their opinions because we tend to assimilate both...

[Matrim Cuathon]

Hi ! How's your essay coming along ?

When is it due ? How long does it have to be ? Are you a high school or university student ?

After all this, I'd like to make a few suggestions with regard to your assignment :

Since we've all been going around in circles with this discussion, due to our being influenced in our views by various sources ( critics, film adaptations, someone else's or our own unfounded opinions or hasty conclusions--- I think we're all being passionate, rather than logical in our analysis ), I suggest you re-read the ACTUAL NOVEL really carefully, with particular attention to how all the marriages turned out.

Then decide for your self whether Charlotte's marriage is that bad.

Consider her expectations--not romantic, wanting financial stability, and Mr.Collins'---only gets married for reasons of propriety necessary in his position as a minister.

Is their actual lifestyle bad ?

Is Mr.Collins all that bad ? Re-read passages detailing his exact character and his background.

Can he be influenced in a positive way ?

After establishing the true value of Charlotte's marriage, decide whether Austen herself would really consider it a bad marriage and why. Check the sources that refer to Charlotte's situation as a " dose of bitterness " ( whether Austen herself said that , or a critic ) and discuss whether her marriage warrants this description from Austen's point of view.

My God, you got me so passionate about this topic, that now I want to write an essay about it.

im quite happy that i was able to read the novel with no prejudice. :)
even though i saw the movie i didnt bother to actually watch it, and i always seperate movies from books anyhow, a movie never does justice to a book and is really all about graphic effects and short attention spans.
as much as i respond emotionally, i tried to remove all of that from my analysis. originally i found collins to be detestable, but i found that if i considered my penchant for Sci-Fi/Fantasy, most of which are quite romantic in any love relationships, and the difference between now and then, that he really wasnt all that horrible.

as for Darcy being a fairytale, one notes that Austen always has at least one main character marry happily. and one thinks that she avoided obvious wishywashyness with plausible reasons. from her books i get the impression that if a man is really, really rich, his marrying down is reasonable. the man is not lowered, the women is elevated. and the very rich can afford not to worry about money if they wish. darcy is not so strange, he is simply not money obsessed.

[sciencefan]

I am not going to find all the references now because they're spattered throughout the story and it would take me too long.

It was a vivid impression I got while I was reading, which in fact- if I may be so bold as to bare my soul to you all- reminded me of the unconditional and condescending love of Jesus.
Anyway, Austen shows Elizabeth very many times- too many times for my pleasure- talking herself out of believing that Darcy still loves her or wants her.

Yes, the original list given in the first proposal is bad enough, and actually at first, did prevent him from considering marriage with her.

“His sense of her inferiority -- of its being a degradation -- of the family obstacles which judgment had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit.” ch 34

“``I might as well enquire,'' replied she, ``why, with so evident a design of offending and insulting me, you chose to tell me that you liked me against your will, against your reason, and even against your character?” ch 34

“``...cried Darcy, ... But perhaps... these offences might have been overlooked, had not your pride been hurt by my honest confession of the scruples that had long prevented my forming any serious design. These bitter accusations might have been suppressed, had I with greater policy concealed my struggles, ... Could you expect me to rejoice in the inferiority of your connections? To congratulate myself on the hope of relations, whose condition in life is so decidedly beneath my own?''” ch 34

Austen rightly supposes such a decision able to fall back to the negative by one more straw on the camel's back.

And yet there was not one more straw, but many throughout.

Lady C. thoroughly and heatedly describes, in her visit to Longbourn, the absolute horror that such a polluting alliance would be to all the family. I can't list them all. ch 56

“He [Darcy] had followed them purposely to town, he had taken on himself all the trouble and mortification attendant on such a research; in which supplication had been necessary to a woman whom he must abominate and despise, and where he was reduced to meet, frequently meet, reason with, persuade, and finally bribe, the man whom he always most wished to avoid, and whose very name it was punishment to him to pronounce. He had done all this for a girl whom he could neither regard nor esteem. ... Brother-in-law of Wickham! Every kind of pride must revolt from the connection. ... They owed the restoration of Lydia, her character, every thing, to him. Oh! how heartily did she grieve over every ungracious sensation she had ever encouraged, every saucy speech she had ever directed towards him. For herself she was humbled; but she was proud of him. Proud that in a cause of compassion and honour, he had been able to get the better of himself.” ch 52

“Let me thank you again and again, in the name of all my family, for that generous compassion which induced you to take so much trouble, and bear so many mortifications, for the sake of discovering them.''” ch 57

Darcy spent over one year's income to bribe Wickham!!
just so he could turn around and be his brother-in law!!


It is mind-boggling.
There could be no further condescension or mortification than that,
nor could any further proof of his completely unconditional love be necessary.


That's the way I see it.

[olichka]

had followed them purposely to town, he had taken on himself all the trouble and mortification attendant on such a research; in which supplication had been necessary to a woman whom he must abominate and despise ... He had done all this for a girl whom he could neither regard nor esteem...
I think that here Elizabeth is referring to Lydia as a girl whom he could not respect, not herself. At this point Elizabeth still doesn't know that he actually did it for her sake : when she later thanks him and tells him that her family owes him a great deal, he replies that her family owes him nothing, he did it all for her. Then the 2nd proposal follows.

[Matrim Cuathon]

where does it say he spends a years income?

[Silas]

Hey Silas,

Glad you're keeping up on the postings.

When is your paper due?

Yes, the posting is getting rather interesting; I enjoy it quite a lot. Well, for your information, my paper is due in three weeks; and when I get it back, I'll be sure to let you know how it went! Thank you.

[Silas]

Hi ! How's your essay coming along ?

When is it due ? How long does it have to be ? Are you a high school or university student ?

After all this, I'd like to make a few suggestions with regard to your assignment :

Since we've all been going around in circles with this discussion, due to our being influenced in our views by various sources ( critics, film adaptations, someone else's or our own unfounded opinions or hasty conclusions--- I think we're all being passionate, rather than logical in our analysis ), I suggest you re-read the ACTUAL NOVEL really carefully, with particular attention to how all the marriages turned out.

Then decide for your self whether Charlotte's marriage is that bad.

Consider her expectations--not romantic, wanting financial stability, and Mr.Collins'---only gets married for reasons of propriety necessary in his position as a minister.

Is their actual lifestyle bad ?

Is Mr.Collins all that bad ? Re-read passages detailing his exact character and his background.

Can he be influenced in a positive way ?

After establishing the true value of Charlotte's marriage, decide whether Austen herself would really consider it a bad marriage and why. Check the sources that refer to Charlotte's situation as a " dose of bitterness " ( whether Austen herself said that , or a critic ) and discuss whether her marriage warrants this description from Austen's point of view.

My God, you got me so passionate about this topic, that now I want to write an essay about it.

Well, olichka, my paper is due in three weeks and I am indeed in college right now--this paper is due for my romantic and Victorian literature class, and it has to be between 1000 to 1300 words:bawling: Well, I guess it's not sooo bad but probably my longest paper yet. Although I like to thank you again for yet another generous dose of advice. I'm still organizing information in my pre-writing, and, like I mentioned before, the more the better! Thank you greatly not only to you and sciencefan, but everyone else, too, thus far! I'll make sure to keep you guys updated:)

[sciencefan]

[/I][/B]
I think that here Elizabeth is referring to Lydia as a girl whom he could not respect, not herself. At this point Elizabeth still doesn't know that he actually did it for her sake : when she later thanks him and tells him that her family owes him a great deal, he replies that her family owes him nothing, he did it all for her. Then the 2nd proposal follows.I know it's pretty tough to discern right there, but I'm pretty sure this is referring to Mrs. Younge, Georgiana's former governness who ended up being a friend of Wickham's.

In Chapter 52, in her letter, the aunt explains how Darcy found Wickham and Lydia by finding Mrs. Younge first.

This must be the woman Darcy despises since she conspired to help Wickham almost elope with Georgiana.

Hunting down these despicable people and facing them again stirs up all the awful pain and feelings of betrayal from before.

Lydia is the girl he could "neither regard nor esteem".

[sciencefan]

where does it say he spends a years income?

I guess it's assumed when they say Wickham would be a fool to accept less than 10,000 pounds.
I guess we don't really know for sure,
but I don't really see him having mercy on Darcy.

"``Yes, yes, they must marry. There is nothing else to be done. But there are two things that I want very much to know: -- one is, how much money your uncle has laid down to bring it about; and the other, how I am ever to pay him.''

``Money! my uncle!'' cried Jane, ``what do you mean, Sir?''

``I mean that no man in his senses would marry Lydia on so slight a temptation as one hundred a year during my life, and fifty after I am gone.''

``That is very true,'' said Elizabeth; ``though it had not occurred to me before. His debts to be discharged, and something still to remain! Oh! it must be my uncle's doings! Generous, good man; I am afraid he has distressed himself. A small sum could not do all this.''

``No,'' said her father, ``Wickham's a fool, if he takes her with a farthing less than ten thousand pounds. I should be sorry to think so ill of him in the very beginning of our relationship.''

``Ten thousand pounds! Heaven forbid! How is half such a sum to be repaid?''" Ch. 49

Mr. Darcy has ten thousand a year.

"Mrs. Bennet had been strongly inclined to ask them to stay and dine there that day; but, though she always kept a very good table, she did not think any thing less than two courses could be good enough for a man on whom she had such anxious designs [Bingley], or satisfy the appetite and pride of one who had ten thousand a year [Darcy]." Ch. 53

[Matrim Cuathon]

ah, i dont think think he actually got that much but he might have. stupid ambigous writing.

[sciencefan]

stupid ambigous writing.LOL! I know how you feel!:D

[olichka]

stupid ambigous writing.


Yes, it's the frequent ambiguity that makes this novel so difficult to analyze.

It's as if Austen is playing a joke on her readers, not telling them exactly what's happening and making them guess !

Or is it because she herself isn't sure what is the appropriate/realistic scenario in all her situations ? Is she being "wishy--washy" , not wanting to go too far, or being unrealistic ?

Or is she actually depicting life the way it really is--ambiguous, events and people difficult to explain, with everyone interpreting according to their expectations, wishes and " pride " ?

Could she be trying to prove to her readers in this way that it's the ambiguity that is the essence of " prejudice " ? :idea:

[olichka]

I guess it's assumed when they say Wickham would be a fool to accept less than 10,000 pounds.
I guess we don't really know for sure,
but I don't really see him having mercy on Darcy.

" No,'' said her father, ``Wickham's a fool, if he takes her with a farthing less than ten thousand pounds. I should be sorry to think so ill of him in the very beginning of our relationship.''

Mr. Darcy has ten thousand a year.

"Mrs. Bennet had been strongly inclined to ask them to stay and dine there that day; but, though she always kept a very good table, she did not think any thing less than two courses could be good enough for a man on whom she had such anxious designs , or satisfy the appetite and pride of [B]one who had ten thousand a year [Darcy]." Ch. 53


True, Darcy does have ten thousand a year, we've been told that actually at the very beginning, however, it doesn't mean that's what he actually gave. Mr. Bennet is speculating/ jumping to conclusions here that this is the sum that Wickham might demand, and perhaps he did, but I also think that Mr. Bennet, not liking or respecting Lydia much ( you know, how some parents underestimate their children ? ), thinks that this would be the price extorted to marry her !

( With regard to Wickham's demand, it's true that he might not take mercy on Darcy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he would demand quite that much. However, on the other hand, he might demand even more. Who knows---he's arrogant enough ! In any scenario, I think that paying that much money ( 10,000 pounds ) would not be that great of a loss to a fabulously wealthy and capable landowner as Darcy---he can always make up for it through efficient management of his estate.

It's worth noting also that in paying off Wickham, (and thus providing Lydia with a dowry ), he seems ironically to be the one himself paying a dowry to ensure his own marriage prospects ( as opposed to the other way around when he previously expected Lizzy's family's resources to provide her dowry ) : in other words, by putting up money for Lydia, he's ensuring Lizzy's becoming his wife --- I hope I'm clear here !!! ).

Or, perhaps, Austen is teasing the readers here, hinting slyly ( slyness was one of Austen's traits ) that Wickham was paid off by Darcy, for who else in the novel is associated with " 10, 000 pounds " ?

Or, perhaps both ?

Go figure !!! Ambiguity again ! :lol:

[sciencefan]

Yes, it's the frequent ambiguity that makes this novel so difficult to analyze.

It's as if Austen is playing a joke on her readers, not telling them exactly what's happening and making them guess !

Or is it because she herself isn't sure what is the appropriate/realistic scenario in all her situations ? Is she being "wishy--washy" , not wanting to go too far, or being unrealistic ?

Or is she actually depicting life the way it really is--ambiguous, events and people difficult to explain, with everyone interpreting according to their expectations, wishes and " pride " ?

Could she be trying to prove to her readers in this way that it's the ambiguity that is the essence of " prejudice " ? :idea:I frequently have this problem with the British.
Except for Narnia, I don't think I have understood one British movie I have ever seen!
I have an awful time with allegories, too.

[sciencefan]

True, Darcy does have ten thousand a year, we've been told that actually at the very beginning, however, it doesn't mean that's what he actually gave.
You’re right, it doesn’t, since we’re not told outright.

Mr. Bennet is speculating/ jumping to conclusions here that this is the sum that Wickham might demand, and perhaps he did,
Right, but being that English authors and I frequently don’t get along well, I thought this was one of those places where I had to have to figure things out for myself.
“Wickham’s a fool”... Wickham is shrewd and conniving; he is no fool.
“if he takes her with a farthing less”... he would not accept a farthing less- I think that’s like saying “not a penny less”.
To me, this was Austen’s way of communicating how much Darcy gave Wickham.

In Ch.47 Elizabeth says “Wickham will never marry a woman without some money.”
The aunt’s letter, “...Wickham still cherished the hope of more effectually making his fortune by marriage in some other country.” Ch. 52


but I also think that Mr. Bennet, not liking or respecting Lydia much ( you know, how some parents underestimate their children ? ), thinks that this would be the price extorted to marry her !
I can see what you are saying, and could be right.
“Wickham of course wanted more than he could get; but at length was reduced to be reasonable.” Ch.52
We know he chased after women who had 10 – 30 thousand pounds.
Did he want 20 or 30 and get 10?


( With regard to Wickham's demand, it's true that he might not take mercy on Darcy, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he would demand quite that much. However, on the other hand, he might demand even more. Who knows---he's arrogant enough ! Right.


In any scenario, I think that paying that much money ( 10,000 pounds ) would not be that great of a loss to a fabulously wealthy and capable landowner as Darcy---he can always make up for it through efficient management of his estate.Everybody’s broke at different levels, I always say. Darcy probably planned to spend that 10,000 pounds on something else, I would think. It’s still a whole year’s income. I would think that would be a sacrifice to anybody.


It's worth noting also that in paying off Wickham, (and thus providing Lydia with a dowry ), he seems ironically to be the one himself paying a dowry to ensure his own marriage prospects ( as opposed to the other way around when he previously expected Lizzy's family's resources to provide her dowry ) : in other words, by putting up money for Lydia, he's ensuring Lizzy's becoming his wife --- I hope I'm clear here !!! ).You mean unwittingly, right, since he doesn’t yet know Elizabeth has changed her mind about him?


Or, perhaps, Austen is teasing the readers here, hinting slyly ( slyliness was one of Austen's traits ) that Wickham was paid off by Darcy, for who else in the novel is associated with " 10, 000 pounds " ?
Wickham was paid off by Darcy.
Austen just doesn’t come right out and tell us how much in a straightforward way.
It is possible it was less, like 5,000 pounds.
It just seemed to me that the way Mr. Bennett spoke was meant to direct us to the conclusion that he got ten.
He goes on further as though he KNOWS he’s right...
``Ten thousand pounds! Heaven forbid! How is half such a sum to be repaid?''"



Or, perhaps both ?

Go figure !!! Ambiguity again ! :lol:Yes. LOL!

It is an interesting side note that in a MonkeyNote Edited by Diane Sauder (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:Wk9i857yLmUJ:lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/monkeynote/pmPrideSample2.rtf)
She summarizes “Darcy convinces Wickham to marry Lydia, gives him ten thousand pounds, pays up his debts, and persuades him to settle in the North of London.”

The writer of CliffNotes also surmises as much.

So I guess I’m glad I’m not entirely alone in my thinking.