Original Thought

[atiguhya padma]

Has anyone round here ever had one?

[Isagel]

We have had this discussion before, I think.
So probably not.

Why do you ask? Are you just trying to get somebody mad or do you really want to discuss creativity? That could be interesting. Right now though I´m feeling a bit irritated, so I guess I ´ll just get back on that subject later.

[atiguhya padma]

I'm asking with regard to the idea of how conditoned we are.

:)

[Isagel]

OK- that is interesting.
(Irritation running off)

[IWilKikU]

There is nothing new under the sun.

[atiguhya padma]

So we are completely conditioned then??

[crisaor]

I'd answer, but atiguhya padma would twist my words again, and try to make it seem like I approve slave trade or some other bull****.

[atiguhya padma]

I take it your answer wasn't worth running that risk then?

[crisaor]

It was, if someone else had asked the question.

[atiguhya padma]

Still attacking people I see Crisaor!

[Shea]

I agree, AP is not worth taking seriously anymore.

[atiguhya padma]

Well, that was so unexpected Shea. Was that your contributon to an original thought?

[Shea]

you obviously haven't had one

[atiguhya padma]

Oh well done Shea! Now that was creative. One of your best posts yet!

[crisaor]

Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Still attacking people I see Crisaor!
Technically, I was defending myself, but to you there's no difference, is it?

Originally posted by atiguhya padma
Well, that was so unexpected Shea. Was that your contributon to an original thought?
She's contributed to that far more than you've done.

[Shea]

whatever. sounds like sour grapes to me. (referring to AP)

[atiguhya padma]

Crisaor - the great unbiased adjudicator of intelliegence and creativity.

I don't know why I need to say this, it is just so obvious

[atiguhya padma]

Why does it sound like sour grapes to you Shea? Let us analyse what on earth you mean by this.

[Isagel]

Please, evryone.

Could we try and have this discussion? I really think it could be interesting. I do not care who started all this. But somebody has to be the first to stop.

Why can´t we all just try and get along ? (Can´t believe I wrote that. That´s ...well...mushy? ) But please, can we try and disagree with eachother without being rude, no matter who started?

I´m working on a small piece about original thought/conditioning that I hope to be able to post here tonight.

[Shea]

you figure it out. since your the almighty analyzer

[Shea]

I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic Isagel. Sorry for the disagreement.

[atiguhya padma]

Thank you Isagel.

I started this thread with a serious attempt to look into the possibility of original thought.

Now, let's try and get back to that discussion.

[crisaor]

Originally posted by Isagel
Please, evryone. Could we try and have this discussion? I really think it could be interesting. I do not care who started all this. But somebody has to be the first to stop.
Yeah. Good call.

Originally posted by Isagel
I´m working on a small piece about original thought/conditioning that I hope to be able to post here tonight.
Looking forward to it. :)

[Isagel]

Oh dear, now I´m nervous to post it. :-).
See you all later.

[Cassandra]

AP all your thoghts seem to be twisting poeple's words and mocking them. You not exactly original yourself. Shea's right.

[Cassandra]

Sorry didn't mean to restart an argument, missed the second page. The idea that we have no original thought is interesting and I think somewhat just demonstrated, though I don't believe it's entirely true.

[atiguhya padma]

Jeeeessssuuuusssss Cassandra, you nearly started WWIII all over again. Next time I'd hesitate before you press that button:)

(PS Only joking!!!):D

[oval]

I got your original thought . . .

what if 'we are the world' was sung by the cast of friends? eh?

eh? ha ha ha ha ha.

[Cassandra]

It's OK. I can't see the 2 button often, I'm blind as a bat.

[Shea]

For the sake of Isagel, I'll post something ironically, not original to me. In the last hour, I've been reading Poe in preperation for a class. Wouldn't you know! This is what he has to say about origionality as it pertains to verse.

"...it is still clear that the possible varieties of meter and stanza are absolutely infinite- and yet, for centuries, no man, in verse, has ever done, or ever seemed to think of doing, an original thing. The fact is that originality (unless in the minds of very unusual force) is by no means a matter, as some suppose, of impulse or intuition. In general, to be found, it must be elaborately sought, and although a positive merit of the highest class, demands it's attainment less of invention than negation.
Of course, I pretend no originality in either the rhythm or meter of The Raven."

Of course Poe stole from all kind of places, including himself.

[Lara]

Whew! Do you guys ever stop? I guess being new here, I haven't had the opportunity to get to know anyone and get irritated yet. LOL
Anyway, I would choose the word influenced, rather than conditioned. I believe anyone who creates is highly influenced by the world around him. Most artists are inspired by what they see, an author creates characters from people he has known, a painter is inspired from color, etc. Yes, I think it is difficult to find true originality.



Crisaor, I'm interested in knowing your opinion on this one. It does make for good conversation, doesn't it? Just try to ignore what's irritating you, hm?

Cheers,
Lara

[atiguhya padma]

Hey, that would mean he'd have to ignore me!:)

And therefore, this thread:)

And therefore this post:)

But I know how he feels. Even I feel like ignoring me a lot of the time. The difference is, he doesn't have to live with me! I mean can you imagine what I go through?:)

[atiguhya padma]

I mean, I don't want moan about it, but here am I stuck in this body, I've got no freewill, the chemicals inside my brain won't let me believe in God, and if that's not bad enough, I'm destined for eternal fires of hell, whilst this mere vessel I call my body moulders away in the Earth.

Oh well, at least I'll be feeding the biosphere. That does give me a great deal of comfort and consolation. I mean, I'd hate to be a waste of time and space, y'know?

And by the way, welcome Lara, if I haven't said this already.:)

[Lara]

I don't think anyone is a waste of time or space. That statement could be rethought, however, in your case, I think you just indulge in a great deal of deep thinking, and maybe feel rebellious to society and conformation. That does not make a waste of space, hm, maybe you'll come up with an original thought? hehe

Thanks for the welcome.

[atiguhya padma]

<That does not make a waste of space,>

Gee Lara, shucks, I'm gonna blush! That's the nicest thing anyone has said to me for the last 10 minutes!
:)

I think I must be in love. (now if only I could believe in love..... 'ang on, I've got an idea...<...>......) Damn lost it. Could of been a really original one too. Ah well, that's just life I suppose! As long as ya got yer elf that's all that matters! as Bilbo Baggins might have said.




:D

[bbq13]

lara, i don't think atiguhya padma is rebellious to society... maybe he just has a different sort if faith... i know because i also have this in myself... i do agree that no one is a waste of time and space... otherwise, why do we all still live?? i mean why bother, why do we have to keep reproducing ourselves as offspring if we are all just a waste of time and space??

[fayefaye]

I used to hate it, because whenever I had an idea, drew something, wrote something, whatever, it was always caused by something. It was always copying something, or altering something, or inspired by something. I hated it because I realised how unoriginal I was. But EVERYONE has done it. Take any brilliant artist, and they are inspired by/influenced by somebody else. You can trace back 'brilliant' or original thoughts straight to their roots, in something else. I get the feeling nothing is truly original. I mean, it'd be impossible to have a truly abstract thought, wouldn't it?

[Cassandra]

Perhaps nothing can be truly original if by that you mean not based on anything. This is good though. if everybody had to rediscover everything based upon nothing where would we be. However I think people can develope what is known in original ways. Isn't that still original thought?

[fayefaye]

I'm thinking along the lines of abstract thought. You make a good point though. But I wonder what the first people based it on?

[Cassandra]

They could still base upon what they saw and heard, nobody ever knows nothing, also just as now they must have had imagination and logic upon which to base things.

[fayefaye]

What would be truly abstract? I'd like to be able to think of things TRULY abstract. But then I'd be crazy. But really, no matter what, something is ALWAYS drawn upon from something else, isn't it?

[IWilKikU]

I think that any "original" thought, even those of origi-man were merely a reaction to either a previous thought, or something happening in thier environment.

[Cassandra]

Precisely. An interesting point would also be is something based upon nothing of value? I'm not commenting whether or not this is true, I'd need to think about it, just curious.

[IWilKikU]

Do you mean money? Both the US and Britain have no backing to their peices of paper that they call "money". All modern economics are based on the people's faith in thier government to be able to repay debt.

[fayefaye]

But that's the pathetic thing. Once, just once, I want to have a TRULY original, abstract thought, based on absolutely nothing, influenced by nothing around me. I think something based on nothing is of value.

[IWilKikU]

I don't think thats possible Faye, even for you!

[Cassandra]

No I didn't mean money. I meant use, like deeper meaning, practicle or moral use, beauty etc... I agree about the money point though. How can anything so valueless be worth so much?

[fayefaye]

kik, I shall keep trying. And becoming more random, and more random!! The govt's ability to pay back debt is one of the stupider parts of economics... best leave that one. Deeper meaning for what?

[Cassandra]

Anyone or thing. Something people get something out of. I suppose any origianl thought would give someone something even if it were completely dumb cus you'd be dead proud of it.

[fayefaye]

true.

[Shea]

"I want to be different- just like everyone else" I got that quote from a friend of mind describing teens who feel rebellious. Who knows where he got it from.

[fayefaye]

no, I'm a teen, and I just want to be different to everybody else. :) But that's something I've had my whole life, not a teenage hangup.

[atiguhya padma]

To be totally original, would require you to think something in a new language that even you could not understand. Like fayefaye has said, maybe that is impossible. It may be that no-one has ever had an original thought in this sense. So originality of thought, to a degree, is determined by a measure of plagiarism.

[atiguhya padma]

And of course this makes completely original thought useless, even were it to be possible.

[Cassandra]

That doesn't people cannot be original and creative. Original thought can be an original interpretation. In the narrow view taken it cannot be possible but overall it must be, otherwise the world would be incredibly sad.

[atiguhya padma]

It means people can be different. They can take a theme and create a variation. And really, this is what we do when we are creative or 'original'. We mix various elements into a synthesis. And it is possibly the synthetic that is 'original'. It is in form that we find an original shape, but the detail is familiar.

But, gone are the days when people used to have a free and easy attitude to creativity. For instance, in an age when copyright, fame and plagiarism are such important issues, the real meaning of creativity and originality, as movement, process, expression, seems to be lost.

When the cathedrals of Europe were built, their architects never felt that they needed to leave their signature. In previous ages, writers would use the work of others freely, without giving credit. Composers incorporate others signatures into their creations. As someone here has rightly said, Shakespeare used the works of others freely to provide storylines or plots (it is in what he does with those sources that makes him great.)

Whether this borrowing (or stealing) is good or bad, I am not sure. Essentially, we do not own such products. We merely propagate them.

[Cassandra]

I think the borrowing or stealing being right depends on how and why you are doing it. If you're just dull and copying, what is the point but if you're adding to and improving or offering a different valid view point then it can be good as it broadens the original.

[IWilKikU]

yeah, but some things arn't meant to be broadened. Could you imagine if someone "broadened" Camus' "L'etranger"? That would ruin its simplicity.

[Cassandra]

Where does stuff become copying instead of using as a base? Some things need to be copyed, imagine if someone long ago had copywrited the invention of the wheel. Where would we be.

[IWilKikU]

something like 30 years later it would become public domain.

[Cassandra]

Doesn't that make copyright somewhat obselete. if ya just wait long enough you can copy anyway. If people wanted to be original all the time and weren't so bothered about getting fame and credit for their work maybe copyright would be un-needed then people could expand ideas or make totally new ones (in as much as that is possible).

[IWilKikU]

I think Copywrite laws have thier place. But I also think it should be a shorter length of time until things become public domain. Patents last somthing like 20-30 years, but literature copywrites last for like 70 years or something! I tried to look on this site for the searchable version of "The Great Gatsby" and it was still under copywrite. Thats retarded. *Apologizes to any retards I may have offended*. Seriously that book is almost 60 years old. WTF?!?

[Cassandra]

WTF? You'd think patents would last longer than books, I guess cus books don't need updating but at the same time you'd think that'd give them shorter copyrights (shrugs) I don't know, I spose people want their money. Course any copying would automatically get rid of origianl thought in it's purist sense and as we imitate from birth i guess we're doomed ;)