HP 7 Thought

[grace86]

Okay, I know some who don't like the Harry Potter books, but I do so I don't care (just kidding, not trying to be mean :p )

For those who have not read book six yet, please don't continue with this thread.

*SPOILER*

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I've been thinking, Snape had a bad turn about at the end of book six helping Draco. It has been speculated that he is a spy for Dumbledore and/or for Voldemort. Dumbledore trusted him, was he actually wrong in doing so?

My question, what do you think Snape's part will be in the last book? Did you think that he was a bad guy from the beginning? I am not sure his betrayal surprised anyone. I am just curious what others' views on him are.

Any particular reason you support him as a bad/good guy?

[Matrim Cuathon]

i think that perhaps even with his humiliation at the hands of harry's father that he will actually turn out to be a good guy. Rowling is trying at least a bit to not be too obvious although sometimes you know things many books ahead. i read harry, becuase i read anything even remotely appealing :) and i ahve to say that cliche as it is it isnt the worst ive read. so snape being a bad guy after all seems
to be below Rowlings level of writing. i only wonder in what way he will assist harry.

[grace86]

I think that of all the time Rowling spent convincing us (or making us think she was convincing us) that Snape was a good guy, it would be kind of disappointing to find out he was a bad guy. I think that is why I am so curious.

[Themis]

I think Snape is one of the most complex characters Rowling ever created. In my opinion, he's neither good nor bad, he stands somewhere in between. He has made mistakes in the past but in the last six books he was never really evil. He was just ... mean and one can (almost) understand why he's being that way.

I'd like to think that in Book 7 he'll get a chance to redeem himself but I'm rather sure he won't. I find it more likely he'll die a most painful and maybe honorable death.


As for his betrayal, I always thought that the oath he took to help Draco, somehow forced him to take the boy's place in the plan.

[Bii]

Well, I'm pretty sure that Snape is still one of the good guys and, I think, Dumbledore asked him to kill him - in order to expose Harry, and to protect Draco from becoming iredeemable. I think there are a few clues to this, first Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch Snape, then Dumbledore froze Harry with the freezing charm (to stop Harry from intervening), then there are Dumbledore's last words "Severus...please..." - is he pleading for his life or for Snape to end it? It's ambiguous at best. And isn't it strange that, considering Snape had Harry pretty much cornered, he didn't kill him but instead used the excuse that Harry had to be left for Voldemort - convenient hey?

I'm very suspicious on this one and J K Rowling has been known to pull a few surprises before!

[Pensive]

I will go with that Themis has said. Snape is a very complex character, and he seems neither like a good man nor a really bad one. I think there is more to him than what actually meets the eye. I had this feeling ages ago, and I still stick to it. I feel that he will play a very important role in this book. What kind of role? I am unable to answer. Maybe he is a person who cares neither about Harry and nor about Voldemort? Maybe, all that time, he was actually working as a double-agent for both Dumbledore and Voldemort, for his own good?

As for killing Dumbledore, I think he did that to fulfil his oath to Draco. Snape is not a kind of person who would want to let himself down in front of Narcissa and Bellatrix or maybe he just did that for Draco Malfoy out of pity? His character's complexity arises many questions in my mind.

[grace86]

I like all your thoughts on Snape. It was a real turn for Snape in the sixth book, only because it seemed that if he really did want to harm Dumbledore, he could have done so at many moments more convenient to him. Not to mention he could have done the same to Harry at any moment.

It also seems like he has gone out of his way to protect both of them at different times.

But it does seem understandable why he would be so mean.

[Lioness_Heart]

I think that Snape is neither good nor bad, but that he had done lots of bad things - his motivation for killing Dumbledore was probably quite complex, but that he deliberately let Harry escape. I think that he will become good in the last book, but will die very tragically, possibly with everyone still thinking that he is evil.

[Annamariah]

I have never liked Snape, I think he's mean, but somehow I can't believe that he could be really BAD. And as many people have already said, it would be somewhat weird, if he was a bad guy after all when all the time he's been suspected to be bad and always they've been wrong about it...

Well, we'll find out soon enough :D

[Pensive]

I like all your thoughts on Snape. It was a real turn for Snape in the sixth book, only because it seemed that if he really did want to harm Dumbledore, he could have done so at many moments more convenient to him. Not to mention he could have done the same to Harry at any moment.

I think that Snape explained the answer to this question that why he had not tried to kill Harry and Dumbledore all those years in front of Bellatrix and Narcissa. And his reasons look quite satisfactory, because Snape does not strike me as a person who would love Voldemort and remain faithful to him at that time when he had no power. Whatever Snape is - I don't think that he is true to Voldemort. He might be acting as a Death Eater, but remember that he is not Bellatrix.

[JBI]

Hes my favorite character. The problem I have with Rowling's work is that it really has no "real" characters. Over the course of six books, I feel that none of the characters have really evolved. Perhaps they did a bit towards the later books, with the whole "romance" bit added in, but from my perception of events Harry is still that annoying geeky boy who went on the train at the beginning of the first book.

Snape perhaps is perhaps the most three dimensional character in the book. Rowling actually has attempted with Snape to look in depth in background, and to try and make him seem "real". Other characters however are so dull that they are completely black and white. If she makes Snape "good", I will most likely write a terrible review on my records (I record every book I read, and put a one-page blurb about them). Snape being good just makes everyone else seem so darn foolish and typical. If however, someone who we see as bad such as Malfoy's mother become good, then we may have a story.

Snape really has no reason for being a "good guy" according to the information we are given about his character. His upbringing is "evil", his friends are evil, his skills are evil, he clearly is an "evil" person, and he has somewhat justifiable reasons for being "evil". Whereas there is absolutely no reason for him to be "good".

Another problem I have with Rowling's work is the oversimplification of the concept good and evil. If you have noticed throughout reading, everyone in Slytherin(sp?) is somewhat evil, and everyone else is good. This creates the illusion that there are no bystanders and that everyone has a side. But why can't Snape be working for himself? Why must all evil people flock to Voldemort's banner? Logically this doesn't make sense; for one to be as selfish and greedy as she has written her Death Eaters out to be, they would need to have characters who want everything; Wealth, power, and whatever the good people have. Paradoxically however, they all seem to be following Voldemort, and obeying him. Some of them are even willing to die for him, which is quite contradictory.

On the good side too, we don't really have anyone who has selfish tendencies, and doesn't follow Harry. Why is it that no one here actually acts as a third party. This oversimplification of the issue is very agrivating to someone who actually wishes to see some character in a piece of fiction.

My conclusions on the matter must mean, that a) he is a whole secret agent working for Dumbledore, and that Dumbledore sacrificed his life knowingly, and acknowledging the fact that Snape had promised to kill him.

or b) that Snape is a real character, and that he has some depth.

[Annamariah]

Another problem I have with Rowling's work is the oversimplification of the concept good and evil. If you have noticed throughout reading, everyone in Slytherin(sp?) is somewhat evil, and everyone else is good. This creates the illusion that there are no bystanders and that everyone has a side.

On the good side too, we don't really have anyone who has selfish tendencies, and doesn't follow Harry. Why is it that no one here actually acts as a third party. This oversimplification of the issue is very agrivating to someone who actually wishes to see some character in a piece of fiction.

As Sirius says in Order of the Phoenix: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." (That conversation was about Dolores Umbridge, but she's not the only one who's quite bad but still one of the "good side"...) Not all the non-slytherins are very nice.

[JBI]

As Sirius says in Order of the Phoenix: "The world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters." (That conversation was about Dolores Umbridge, but she's not the only one who's quite bad but still one of the "good side"...) Not all the non-slytherins are very nice.

I did not say good and Death eaters, I said good and evil. Name a gray character please?

[Nick Rubashov]

I don't see snape changing sides again in the 7th book, he'll stay a bad guy in my opinion, as there is no observable advantage for his killing of Dumbledore, it's impossible for him to still be on the good side.

[srpbritlit]

Besides Snape, Hermione has evolved a bit as well. She's still emotional, rigid, and disciplined about schoolwork, but she has shown tendencies to bend or break the rules to support her best friends, Harry and Ron. For instance, petrifying Neville in HP 1 (Philosopher's(I read the UK editions for all 6)/ Sorcerer's Stone) and in Half-Blood Prince she helps Ron become Quidditch Keeper, by Confunding his opponent in the tryouts. Anyway, I think Snape is definitely a good guy, because the evidence is overwhelming, but I also think he is a double agent for both sides.

[SleepyWitch]

I think that Snape is neither good nor bad, but that he had done lots of bad things - his motivation for killing Dumbledore was probably quite complex, but that he deliberately let Harry escape. I think that he will become good in the last book, but will die very tragically, possibly with everyone still thinking that he is evil.
that would be an interesting twist, Lioness.

i don't think Snape fits into categories like "good" or "evil" but i'm sure he will help Harry in the end. I don't think he's a Death Eater any more.


Hes my favorite character. The problem I have with Rowling's work is that it really has no "real" characters.
that's exactly my opinion. it helps to see HP as a kind of fairy tale rather than a novel. in fairy tales the good/bad guy is set up to be good/bad right from the start, just BECAUSE. there are no psychological explanations or character development that show why characters are that way.
also in fairy tales, the good guy is often an orphan who is treated badly by his mean relatives. (e.g. Cinderella)

i still think Snape will turn out good-ish in the end though. you have to keep in mind this book is written for kids and mainly from the perspective of kids (Harry etc). so all they see is Snapes mean surface, which makes them prejudiced against them. I mean, Snape has helped Harry and his friends so many times since book 1 and yet they are always suspicious of him.
--> if you identify with the kid's perspective Snape being good would be a surprising twist...

on the other hand, if you adopt a more complex perspective it gets more unpredictable...
i.e.
1. Snape seems to be evil because he's mean --> 1a)Snape being good would be a surprise

2. he helps Harry a lot, so he must be good[=maybe this is surprise number 1a and there aren't going to be any more surprises??? --> Snape is good]
-->2a)if he's good, there was a good reason why he killed DD.

2b) that Snape kills DD shows he's not good after all (WHICH WE KNEW ALL ALONG, REALLY, seeing how mean he is. his helping Harry was only a distractor)--> At the end of the series Snape is exactly what he was set up as at the beginning: EVIL...j
this would be extremely boring. Also, I don't know Rowling's opinion, but in my opinion that stupid brat (Harry) ought to learn that sometimes his prejudices aren't true--> Snape needs to be good in order for Harry to learn this. :)



on the other hand, Snape is set up as evil and mean--> we tend to think he's good really ---> it would be a surprise for us if he was really evil. --> he is evil
but that's the state of affairs at the end of book 6 and there is one more book to go. ---> Snape has to be good if there is to be another twist in book 7.
--> Snape is good :)

it will all depend on which perspective we're supposed to have been following


have you guys pre-ordered the 7th book? I have and will receive it on the day it's published :)

[Aiculík]

I think Snape is not evil. Maybe he's not good, but he's not evil, either.

In book 6, Harry says that Dumbledore trusted Snape only because he always believed in second chance.

But we know that Snape was charged as Death Eather. But Dumbledore gave evidence that he cooperated with good side before Voldemort's fall. That evidence was good enough that Snape was cleared of all charges and even accepted as a teacher.

I don't think the court would free a Death Eater just because he went to Dumbledore and said he was sorry. Or because Dumbledore believes in second chances. I think we haven't been told true reasons why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much, not yet. It will be something big. Bigger than what Harry thinks, at least.

[grace86]

The last book will definitely be a surprise, I like all your possibilities Sleepy, it sounds like you have thought about this a lot.

I would hate for him to turn out to be a bad guy. He really might have killed Dumbledore for a good reason...like Sleepy said, and I agree that Dumbledore had unsaid reasons for a second chance.

I'm hoping she does set us up in another twist.

I've not preordered my copy yet...I know, I'm bad. It is coming up rather soon though.

The fifth movie is coming out at the same time right?

[SleepyWitch]

I
I don't think the court would free a Death Eater just because he went to Dumbledore and said he was sorry. Or because Dumbledore believes in second chances. I think we haven't been told true reasons why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much, not yet. It will be something big. Bigger than what Harry thinks, at least.
that's an interesting thought. wouldn't it be fun if Snape was somehow involved in saving baby Harry? I'm not to clear on the details, because I've never read the first two books.
but it would be ironic if Snape had somehow helped Harry's parents while Harry has hated his guts ever since they first met.


grace, yep, I think it's around the same time.
hehe, I'm glad I've pre-ordered an English copy. I think the German edition will only be out in December and cost 30 Euros instead of 18 Euros for the English edition.

[Lioness_Heart]

I'm really distressed!! Just realised that I will be in Africa for a month when HP7 comes out!!! I'll have to wait ages to read it!!!

[Shalot]

I don't know about Snape at all, and I can't wait to see how it turns out (have you pre-ordered your copy of the book? :) ).

I am curious to see what happens to Neville Longbottom. Do you think he will play a significant part in how it ends, because didn't he have something to do with the prophecy also?

[Hyacinth42]

Why must all evil people flock to Voldemort's banner? Logically this doesn't make sense; for one to be as selfish and greedy as she has written her Death Eaters out to be, they would need to have characters who want everything; Wealth, power, and whatever the good people have. Paradoxically however, they all seem to be following Voldemort, and obeying him. Some of them are even willing to die for him, which is quite contradictory.

They are not "evil" per se, they are merely extreme racists. Some Death Eaters flock for the power and money, but the others actually believe that purebloods are better than mudbloods and that muggles should be the ones in hiding.

Now, as for Snape, I am glad that so many believe that he is still good. I got halfway through the book, realized that Dumbledore was going to be killed by Snape, and started banging the book on the table, chanting "No, no, no!"

After I actually read the scene, I realized that Snape was not in fact evil, but was afraid that others may not have the same reasoning...

I mean, Dumbledore, who said, "Death is the next great adventure," would not plead for his life. Hagrid overheard Snape telling Dumbledore that he didn't want to go through with "something". If Snape hadn't killed Dumbledore, then the Order's only spy would be lost. And Snape was the proof that redemption is possible, and that people deserve second chances. For him to turn out to be evil would totally shatter that idea.

Besides, I realized after book 4 that Dumbledore was going to die, and somebody had to be the one to do it ;). It was so satisfying, expecially since my friends laughed at me when book 5 came out and Dumbledore was still alive.