Greek Tragedy

[Cassandra]

Has anyone here read any Greek tragedy, particularly Euripedes. i'm doing A-level classics at the moment and wondered if anyone was up for a chat?

[Koa]

I read some (not very in depth as they weren't the principal thing) for an exam I did last month, I probably forgot everything already...
I read "Iphigenia in Aulis" (I don't know if this is a proper translation) by Euripides, and "Orestea" By Eschilo (Eschilus? How the hell do you call the Greek guys in English? ;))

[Cassandra]

Aeschylus.He's really hard, especially the first time. I ahven't read Iphigenia yet, was it any good. Probably is if it's Euripedes, he is my fav tragedian, because he looks at people and whowe are though he uses extreme situations. If you like Oresteia try Euripedes' Electra. It's really different and funny if you've read Aeschylus.

[Koa]

I didn't like the Aeschylus thing. I preferred Euripides because some idea and the plot itslef seemed more interesting to me, but then I must say I'm not crazy about any of them, I'm not really a fan of greek stuff and I usually find it very hard to read theatre stuff (It wasn't written to be READ... ;))

[Cassandra]

Go see it then.

[Cassandra]

Or act it.
that's fun too.

[IWilKikU]

I'm doing Sophocles later this semester. Just Antigone.

[Sindhu]

Originally posted by Cassandra
Has anyone here read any Greek tragedy, particularly Euripedes. i'm doing A-level classics at the moment and wondered if anyone was up for a chat?
Me PLEEEASE!! I've read, Studied and taught Greek tragedy and I'd Love to talk about it. Sophocles is my personal favourite, but I'm Ok with Euripides and Aeschylus too. Thanks, Cassandra, I have been waiting for a discussion like this to get going!:)
And do you think we could widen up a little bit so as to allow Greek comedy a peep in and give some time to Aristophanes?;)
Sindhu.

[Cassandra]

Sure. I'll try and read some quick. I like Oedipus rex best. i love Sophocles use of dramaic irony. It must take a lot to take a story everyone knows and still have people on tenterhooks. The catharsis at the end is really dodgey too. Oedipus did something that you find totally disgusting yet because he is really nice you feel awful for him, and that can still apply. It's great what you can learn about modern rules and philosophies through plays that are over 2000 years old.

[Munro]

I've studied 'King Oedipus' by Sophocles and 'The Persians' by Aeschylus if you want to talk about. I think I don't like Aeschylus, either (as Koa said). In my Ancient History class last year we did a lengthy unit on Greek Drama which was fascinating, and surprisingly enough - I remember a lot of it.

[Cassandra]

Don't dis Aeschylus. he just has a very old fasioned manner and style (yes I know they are all thousands of years old). I didn't like Agammemnon first time but after having to read it a few times I really liked it, you hust have to miss the long choral odes. That's one of the things I prefer about Euripedes, his chourus seem like reall people in the play, and he sometimes uses them to poke fun at Aeschylus. I really like how you can see the progression in theatre through each person'e work, you can see it become more real and more about the characters, Aeschylus seems more into characters who are lofty and above the audience but one can really relate to Oedipus even though his situation is alien to us.

[Koa]

Do you know what I just realised? That the Aeschilus thingy I read was infact Agamennon :D And yeah the choruses were...well...boring...unless you're interested in that sort of things...

[Cassandra]

And incredibly hard to make sense of!

[Dick Diver]

Cassandra, I don't believe you.....

[IWilKikU]

are you talking about her post or her sig?

[Sindhu]

Her username- am I right Dick Diver?:D

[Cassandra]

While I am slightly mad, I'm definately not that old! :) I'm also not named after her, although I do feel sorry for her and admire her. However if you wish to continue refusing to believe me may I remind you that Troy misbelieved her and most of them ended up dead because of it.

Question: Was the fate of the characters in Antigone deserved and how is this play relevent now?

[tikkiqueen88]

Although i have not read that book, I just finished with Antigone. That play is very intreging, yet such a tragety at the same time. I had to write a paper on it as well on who i thought the tragic hero/heroin was. I went with Antigone over Creon.:)

[Cassandra]

Why? I would have said Creon suffered the greater tragedy, at least within this play alone. Antigone got what she desired in the end. I suppose her tragedy is that she did not realise what she had. Creon's too, he learned but too late.

[tikkiqueen88]

Yes he was also a tragic hero too, but she had all of the things that make up a tragic heroin. She was in a posistion of high power, she was hubris, her catharsis, and her demise. It just seemed to fit more for her to be a tragic heroin rather than Creon even though he posessed some of the same traits althought not as strongly

[Cassandra]

I think overall i.e. in all the plays, Antigone comes out as a tragic hero more because of what she went through because of her father but her holier than thou attituse later really annoys me, it makes me feel less catharsis at the end. True you don't feel that bad for creon either. The people you really pity are their families, though I don't think they count. I think Sophocles intended both to be tragic heros to show how wrong they both were.

[Dexter]

Food for thought - if you weren't sure you liked Greek tragedy, try Anouil's (An=wee) Antigone. Its based on Sophocles, but was written during the Nazi occupation of Paris. Put on under their noses. Great read

[IWilKikU]

I'm studying that play next semester, juxtaposed with Sophocles.

[Cassandra]

We only do greek plays, we don't get to compare. I'll have to read it though, I'm intregued as to how Anouil works the two together, sides I can show off in my essays :p

[tikkiqueen88]

yeah ill have to check out Anouil and tell my Lit. Professor about it. It sounds interesting..but is it like the same story or does it deal with events in the Nazi invasion?let me know thanks:)

[Dexter]

No, Nazi thing is just a factoid. It takes place in Greece, same story, but with a somewhat different take on itl Should impress prof. Anouil gets into nature of traged - "spring is wound up tight" implies nothing can be done. Rage all you want against fate. Right?

[tikkiqueen88]

Right, alright thanks for the info:)

[me_india1]

hi guys
I am badly searching for novels on greek literature which includes trojan wars... achileus, hector etc.... u guys seems to hav read that.. pls send me the link...
thanku

[nessgavin]

OK, I have a question. Did Aeschulys intend for us to identify with Clytemnestra or Agammemnon? When reading I totally identified with Clytemnestra. But in thinking about it, I identified with Agammemnon.

[Wilde woman]

I've only read Aeschylus' Oresteia. Does Oedipus Rex count?

Nessgavin - I think there are very legitimate arguments for both sides, though I think the answer that first jumps to mind is that Aeschylus meant for us to sympathize with Agamemnon. But the presence of Eumenides obviously argues for sympathy for Clytemnestra too.

[Amylian]

Unfortunately, I have only read Sophocles' The Three Theban Plays. I have to admitt, it is really good stuff and from that class that I have become in Greeks Literature and Mythology.

[kelby_lake]

yeah ill have to check out Anouil and tell my Lit. Professor about it. It sounds interesting..but is it like the same story or does it deal with events in the Nazi invasion?let me know thanks:)

It's great- the stage directions say that you can set in anywhere at anytime.

[Drkshadow03]

I've only read Aeschylus' Oresteia. Does Oedipus Rex count?

Nessgavin - I think there are very legitimate arguments for both sides, though I think the answer that first jumps to mind is that Aeschylus meant for us to sympathize with Agamemnon. But the presence of Eumenides obviously argues for sympathy for Clytemnestra too.

Why do you feel, Wilde Woman, that the Eumenides creates sympathy for Cytemnestra?


Unfortunately, I have only read Sophocles' The Three Theban Plays. I have to admitt, it is really good stuff and from that class that I have become in Greeks Literature and Mythology.

Amylian, you should definitely check out the other Greek Tragedies if you get the chance. Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripedes are all extremely different writers; to oversimplify, Aeschylus is the most poetical of the three, Sophocles has the strongest plots, Euripedes has the most interesting and complex characters.

[Wilde woman]

Why do you feel, Wilde Woman, that the Eumenides creates sympathy for Cytemnestra?

Well the Eumenides persecute Orestes specifically because he killed his mother, which is striking considering they did not torment Clytemnestra for killing her husband. This gives the impression that somehow matricide is a more serious offense to the gods than is murdering one's spouse (the whole crime-against-your-blood vs. crime against your spouse, who has no blood relation to you). Of course, the Eumenides are swayed by Apollo's argument at the end and change their mind. But the very fact that Orestes spends an entire act fleeing from the Eumenides and trying to justify his actions shows that he feels guilty. And no matter how you paint it, killing your mother is a horrific act. Personally, I feel like readers are bound to feel bad for Clytemnestra on some visceral level, though they may not actually sympathize with her.

Also, there's the whole Iphigenia backstory. I don't remember for sure if it's mentioned in the Oresteia, but anyone familiar with the origins of the Trojan War would know that Clytemnestra was (justifiably) upset over the sacrifice of her daughter.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it with a modern mindset. It's hard for me to accept Athena's judgment in the last act, because quite frankly I don't buy the father-is-more-important-than-the-mother argument. Admittedly it has to be read and understood within its cultural timeframe, but either way, I still think a case could be made for Clytemnestra.

[bluevictim]

Amylian, you should definitely check out the other Greek Tragedies if you get the chance. Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripedes are all extremely different writers; to oversimplify, Aeschylus is the most poetical of the three, Sophocles has the strongest plots, Euripedes has the most interesting and complex characters.I agree that the Greek tragedies besides Sophocles' Theban plays are all worth reading (and of course the Theban plays are, as well). There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the them here at LitNet itself, but a couple of members here have shared their thoughts on their blogs. Drksahdow03's blog has some nice entries on them (here's (http://beyondassumptions.wordpress.com/2008/10/19/booklist-2008-41-42-and-43-the-oresteia-agamemnon-the-libation-bearers-and-the-eumenides-trans-richard-lattimore/) one on Aeschylus' Oresteia). J.D.'s blog also has some interesting entries on the tragedies (here (http://whatdo-iknow.blogspot.com/2008/04/oresteia-aeschylus-will-somebody-please.html) is the one on the Oresteia).


Personally, I feel like readers are bound to feel bad for Clytemnestra on some visceral level, though they may not actually sympathize with her.I agree that there is some sympathy for Clytemnestra, especially at the climax of Choephori, when she is confronted by Orestes just before he kills her. I don't think Aeschylus was interested in making simple villains. She is Orestes mother, after all, and she seems to be mixed up in the web of the curse on the house of Atreus which she had no part in creating.

[dfloyd]

Many don't even like them when they grow up. But those that do and continue reading them or see their plays performed will have a piece of culture to call their own.

[Equality72521]

We just spent an entire class of lecture over greek tragedies the other day in theatre. It was a blast. I love the greek tragedies and my theatre instructor is one of the best narrators I have ever heard. That is why I love theatre teachers, because they are so animated. But I enjoy the greek tragedies, they're well.....tragic....but really good....In my opinion

[Sindhu]

hi guys
I am badly searching for novels on greek literature which includes trojan wars... achileus, hector etc.... u guys seems to hav read that.. pls send me the link...
thanku
I can give you the names of quite a few novels, but I don't think any of them are likely to be avilable online- My personal favourite would be Christa Wolf's German novel Kassandra English translation Cassandra. Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Firebrand is also really interesting. Daughter of Troy by Sarah B. Franklin too is worth trying out. And since I had been teaching course of Historical Fiction in Children's Literature, I can also reccomend the young Adult novels Troy by Adele Geras, Inside the Walls of Troy: A Novel of the Women Who Lived the Trojan War by Clemence McLaren and The Luck of Troy by Roger Lancelyn Green. Hope these help.

[kasie]

yeah ill have to check out Anouil and tell my Lit. Professor about it. It sounds interesting..but is it like the same story or does it deal with events in the Nazi invasion?let me know thanks:)

I can see that this post was made way back when, but someone has answered it recently so this may be of interest: Rolf Hochhuth wrote a short story called The Berlin Antigone, translated into English by Robert David Macdonald in the 60s. I don't know if it is still in print, I read it in a magazine and it impressed me so much I tore it out of the magazine and kept it. It's powerful stuff and because it moves the story untouched in essence into a 'modern' setting (Germany under Nazi rule), the Pity and Terror of the tragedy remain intact and are shown to be not a thing of the past but still relevant and intensely moving.