The Moment of Salvation [Archive] - Literature Network Forums

Woland

02-01-2007, 03:05 PM

I dont personally believe in a perishable soul

From the Bhagavad Gita

I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to dispel it even if I win a prosperous, unrivaled kingdom on earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven.

BG 2.9: Sañjaya said: Having spoken thus, Arjuna, chastiser of enemies, told Kṛṣṇa, "Govinda, I shall not fight," and fell silent.

BG 2.10: O descendant of Bharata, at that time Kṛṣṇa, smiling, in the midst of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken Arjuna.

BG 2.11: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead.

BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

BG 2.13: As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.

Jetxa

02-02-2007, 12:33 AM

As a former Christian, it is my understanding that to be "saved", one must invite Christ to be Lord and Savior of one's life; thereby making a sacred vow to live in accordance with God's will. This usually goes hand in hand with baptism, which is symbolic of God's Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit entering one's heart and mind (at the invitation or at baptism) to lead and direct one in the path of righteousness. This is not a possession but a Holy Consciousness that abides within giving counsel and direction. One is then assured a place in Heaven as it is believed that those who choose Christ have been also chosen by Him and therefore "sealed" into his Holy Kingdom.

Pendragon

02-02-2007, 11:06 AM

OK. I will define my term, if that is the stumbling block.

At what point does belief in your system of religion make one different than he/she was before they began to believe in said religious belief. What about that belief is the thing that produces salvation for a believer?

What I believe has already been expressed to a degree, but as I said, I am trying to get other's viewpoints, not to express my own at this point, so I will not go further with my own.

God Bless.

Jetxa

02-02-2007, 12:07 PM

At what point does belief in your system of religion make one different than he/she was before they began to believe in said religious belief. What about that belief is the thing that produces salvation for a believer?

IMO it would be at the point of "repentance" or a change of heart and mind when one realizes they have been living in denial of God and His love and therein desires to live in "oneness" with God. Some describe it as a desire not to walk through this world "alone" but to walk in the comfort and hope that a belief in God gives.

I'm sure there is much more to it than that, but again, I am a former Christian and perhaps never was one when you figure I left the faith. :confused:

Orionsbelt

02-02-2007, 01:09 PM

I am not being supid here. I am serious.

The moment of salvation for me was the moment I was saved from salvation. I am free to be concerned about other creatures using my own sense of compassion for them. I don't see the need for anything else. :p

Jetxa

02-02-2007, 01:20 PM

:thumbs_up Me too, OB. And shedding the burden of guilt was such sweet freedom.

Pendragon

02-04-2007, 10:32 AM

:thumbs_up Me too, OB. And shedding the burden of guilt was such sweet freedom.Now I have a question concerning terms. And I am not being at all callous, but courious. You mention that you now feel that you can move with out a "burden of guilt." Please define what you mean by that. I assure you that I have seen cold-blooded murderers stand in courtrooms and discribe their crimes without the slightest show of emotion at all. They have no remorse and no guilt feeling. I assume that you are not in any way that type of person, and would find such a person to be loathsome. So, from what sort of guilt did you free yourself? If it is everday life's problems, I can assure you that my head hits my pillow at night and I go to sleep unafraid of guilt. I have prayed a simple, little humble prayer, nothing grand or fantastic, and I sleep, forgiven. To forever be in His grace is my freedom from guilt. God Bless. :)

Jetxa

02-04-2007, 12:31 PM

I will try to answer your question, Pendragon.

Being raised both in the Jewish and Christian faiths, it was tremendously hard to follow where my heart and mind led without a little nagging voice in my head saying, “Have no other god’s before me.” It wasn’t that I wanted another god, but that I was lead to believe that forming my own view of what God is or isn’t would lead to damnation. When one has been indoctrinated from birth by a certain set of belief and values, it is hard to clear one’s mind and start over without some sense of wondering if one is wrong or misguided in their thinking. So more or less, that is the “guilt” I speak of.

My parents say I am choosing my own path and not God’s path. That I am choosing the easy path and not the path that corrects me and tempers me while purifying me and making me “Christ like”. Jesus had only two commandments, love God and love your neighbor as yourself. I define love as appreciation and acknowledgement of that which was given me and that which glorifies the Author of All Life.

As a Pagan, I believe in “what works”. In other words, I learn from my actions and the actions of others. I learn there are consequences for my actions. One learns living in community that there are consequences for “breaking the rules”. I do not always agree with “the rules”, but realize there is a price to pay if I wish to live in community and in a peaceful existence.

IMO man is not truly free to explore how he “fits in” with the world around him. The “Mother Culture” of religious dogma and doctrine rules our lives from the moment of birth. We are told what to do and what to believe, and to deny these rules and regulations will result in punishment not only in this life but will follow us unto death!

I break the speed limit when I think I can get away with it. I do not steal as I do not want others to steal from me. Also, I don’t want my name and picture in the paper or on the local news! I am bound by the opinion of others and society. I am forced to lead a life that is not true to who I am (human nature) in order to gain the comforts I wish to have such as companionship and harmony (in being faithful) and the security of my own home (not breaking the law and spending time in jail). So I obey the law and rules of society to gain certain things that make my life easier and to “fit in”. This is not to say I would steal or kill if not for society rules, but I don’t honestly know. Who is free to truly know themselves? Man is imprisoned by the Mother Culture and to escape means punishment and/or banishment.

I am not of the same mind as a “cold blooded killer”, but I understand the sense of shrugging their shoulders and saying, “What’s your problem?” I do not want judged by anyone’s rules but my own. I am not tossing God away so I can feel free to do as I please, but am simply trying to live by discovering who and what God meant me to be. Our early ancestors lived in peaceful community, as indigenous peoples do today, without rules imposed upon them by religious doctrine. This is not to say they did not have any “religious” beliefs, but that they lived in harmony with God and did not struggle against God as IMO today’s religion imbues.

The bottom line is I want to be free to find God for myself and not to have someone else do it for me.

Virgil

02-04-2007, 01:20 PM

God makes his own decisions however He wants. We should not behave one way or another because we want Him to behave in any particular way, or make any particular decision in our favour. We should do the right thing because that is what we are designed for.

.

Since the concept of being saved is not clearly defined, I will define it according to Islam, and it would mean that God forgives your sins and grants you eternal life. In essence, is means that you have attained God's pleasure and approval. Since the greatness of the reward compared to the limitations of what we can do to attain it is so vastly out of proportion, we believe that no one person is able to earn that reward by his actions alone. Because of that, a person is saved by God's mercy. However, a person is still expected to live according to God's laws and prohibitions because only then does he or she have a right to hope for that mercy.
Actually Amra the Islamic understanding is about the same as Christianity, at least to my understanding of it. And what you say is not incompatible to Whiff's statement.

One other thing that I don't believe was mention and that is a sense of divine justice. If we have free wills, then I personally believe it is necessary for God to exact some sort of justice, otherwise goodness is rather meanless. However, I don't believe there is some sort of equation that measures justice, and ultimately, as Whiff says, God can do anything he feels appropriate.

ennison

02-04-2007, 02:08 PM

'Our early ancestors lived in peaceful community, as indigenous peoples do'

There was almost constant warfare between tribal groups. Occasionally peace would break out so that they could continue their war against nature. Their lives were nasty brutish and short. That does not mean they were crueller than us or more barbaric. But given the choice of living 1000 or more years ago in the indigenous groups then present here or of living today well though the question is hypothetical the answer is what I believe they call a no-brainer on the other side of the Atlantic

Jetxa

02-04-2007, 07:21 PM

@ennison: I meant that within their own personal communities people lived in peace with each other or at least lived by a set of standards that lent for a peaceful existence between its members. Indigenous people today, like the Aborigines, live in peace community without the diseases that stress brings in our "worldly" lives and without the rules and regulations that govern the lives of most of the world.

Pendragon

02-05-2007, 01:12 PM

The bottom line is I want to be free to find God for myself and not to have someone else do it for me. Now let me shock you. If you do not find God for yourself but depend upon what others tell you solely, you have not found God. You are religious, yes, but religion will not save anyone. Take the Rich Young Ruler. He told Jesus he had followed the law from his youth up. Did Jesus call him a liar? No. He told him he still lacked something. What was it? The willingness to love people enough to go beyond the letter of the law, and do things for them anyway. See, he kept the law to the letter. If he had given his portion for this year, he would not give a cent beyond it, if it meant that someone starved to death. Yet he felt fine, because he was obeying the law. He han't found God for himself, he was following a rulebook. God bless.

:)

Orionsbelt

02-06-2007, 09:28 AM

Interesting to me is Spinoza who thinks along the same lines that Jexta has expressed. As I understand it we are also limited to a certain "space" by the biological and spiritual form that we have. He asserts that people can have no "free will" because of this restriction. We are bound to live within the limits of our bodies and mind. Then God is the only creature that can exhibit true "free will". He did not see God as standing outside of nature but the essence of nature itself (us included). At a certain level the dogmatic and orthodox religious structures are necessary. Many people will not ever look beyond a civil consensus so it is handy. The moment you start to look deeper, there are problems and contradictions that develop. I soon found the need to move past them to try to get more to the bottom of things. So the need to be motivated from within (development) as opposed to pushed from outside (conforming to the code) seems to be a brighter path.

Pendragon

02-06-2007, 02:15 PM

An interesting thing I find is asking someone if they are a Christian. They usually reply by saying something like this: "I'm a Baptist." "I am a practicing Catholic." "I attend the First Church of God." That's really great, mes amis, but it doesn't answer the question. It tells me where you go to church. You might be the biggest hypocrite in town. I ask if you were a Christian. Are Christians ashamed of Christ?

ennison

02-06-2007, 06:49 PM

'but religion will not save anyone.'

I agree

Wintermute

02-07-2007, 09:00 AM

Are Christians ashamed of Christ?

I don't know, good question. I've noticed similar responses.

Are kids ashamed of Santa or the Tooth Fairy? At some point, as they grow older, I think they are, but not when they're young and ignorant.

Am I ashamed to admit that I believe in extratreestrial civilizations, and that if the biblical Christ existed he probably drove a flying saucer? Yep. In some respects I am. Why? A lack of evidence. I have no proof.

Anything is possible, nothing is certain (Imo).

Pendragon

02-07-2007, 10:55 AM

I am really finding it interesting that no one has come forward to say anything in defense of their way of believing. I did ask for imput, just no arguing. We can discuss without fuss. Surely everyone doesn't believe me to be right, that you must find God without the constant nagging of others. Until the words in the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other writings considered to be "Holy Writ" become real to you, you will have nothing but words on paper. Opposing views, anyone? God bless.

Wintermute

02-07-2007, 11:04 AM

Until the words in the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other writings considered to be "Holy Writ" become real to you, you will have nothing but words on paper. Opposing views, anyone? God bless.

Assuming that by real to you you mean truth to me, I have no argument. You are correct, just poorly written (vague) words on paper....

Whifflingpin

02-07-2007, 04:49 PM

"Surely everyone doesn't believe me to be right, that you must find God without the constant nagging of others."

Well, I agree with that.

"Until the words in the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other writings considered to be "Holy Writ" become real to you, you will have nothing but words on paper."

I agree with that too.

Where we may then part company is that I think that any "Holy Writ" is merely words on paper, and no more, or less, to be believed than, say, Plato's Dialogues or Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" or Keats' "Ode to a Grecian Urn."

"Holy Writs" have an important place in that they serve to define/unite certain groups of people - not that they need be taken as true by anyone outside those groups.

Of course, those who hold that their particular Writ is the One True Writ argue loud and often, in this forum, that we must have some Holy Writ (theirs) to define God, or we would all have individual views of Him. Great, I say, God should be uniquely experienced by each individual, and cannot be defined in any book.

Orionsbelt

02-07-2007, 09:41 PM

An interesting thing I find is asking someone if they are a Christian. They usually reply by saying something like this:.....Are Christians ashamed of Christ?

Ha! Haven't you ever heard the magic rule? Never discuss politics and religion! Seems to me like this is the best way in the world to never accomplish anything but ... it does provide an easy path for most people who prefer these things to be a somewhat private matter. The safe thing to do is to declare allegiance to the flag without being very specific and then move on to important matters like the color of the table cloth. When I was young, my family and friends would have heated arguments over passionate topics. Sometimes, it would be a few days before you could feel the love once again. Although I questioned the genetic makeup and heritage of some of my closest friends and family, I never doubted their soul. I find that sort of thing to be rare anymore. But.... you can't always change the color of the sky.

So what do you think of the story of the prodigal son? I have always found this story to be fascinating!:D

Virgil

02-07-2007, 10:09 PM

"Holy Writs" have an important place in that they serve to define/unite certain groups of people - not that they need be taken as true by anyone outside those groups.

Of course, those who hold that their particular Writ is the One True Writ argue loud and often, in this forum, that we must have some Holy Writ (theirs) to define God, or we would all have individual views of Him. Great, I say, God should be uniquely experienced by each individual, and cannot be defined in any book.

This is very interesting Whiff. I have a question (not just to you but to all), why do you think that God allows many different religions to develop rather than reveal the one true one?

Wintermute

02-08-2007, 09:54 AM

This is very interesting Whiff. I have a question (not just to you but to all), why do you think that God allows many different religions to develop rather than reveal the one true one?

If a universal creator exists, I would doubt that It gives a damn what our little minds invent to expalin our circumstance and dampen our fears of death. Naturally, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

Pendragon

02-08-2007, 10:04 AM

So what do you think of the story of the prodigal son? I have always found this story to be fascinating!:D One of my own favorites as well. He had to go out and experience things for himself to find out how good he had it at home. Sometimes I think that is a problem for people who have been raised in a religious environment. I know it was for me. I had so much trouble with rules and regulations and who was breaking them and still fussing at me, that I cracked like an egg. I've tried a little bit of almost everything. Then I found myself become just like the people I ran from in the first place. It took a long time, and a run of bad things that I've been through to make me understand that one person is as important as a church full and the reality is that everyone that attends church isn't Christlike. So now, I work with the individual even with the (very) small congregation I have. God bless.

Pendragon

02-08-2007, 10:09 AM

This is very interesting Whiff. I have a question (not just to you but to all), why do you think that God allows many different religions to develop rather than reveal the one true one? One point Virgil: Revelation and Interpetation are two majorly different things. I will say no more than that, but think along those lines. Remember The Six Blind Men and the Elephant? God Bless.

Orionsbelt

02-08-2007, 12:05 PM

If a universal creator exists, I would doubt that It gives a damn what our little minds invent to explain our circumstance and dampen our fears of death. Naturally, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

I agree. I think that's our responsibility to each other.

One ...... So now, I work with the individual even with the (very) small congregation I have. God bless.

I think that is exactly why the big party for the "bad" boy and the gentile words for the "good" boy. My mother used to say "God save us from religious people" She wasn't kidding. She was also not being downgrading. One person is the whole nut ...

Gotta do some work now.

sciencefan

02-08-2007, 12:51 PM

Since the concept of being saved is not clearly defined, I will define it according to Islam, and it would mean that God forgives your sins and grants you eternal life. In essence, is means that you have attained God's pleasure and approval. Since the greatness of the reward compared to the limitations of what we can do to attain it is so vastly out of proportion, we believe that no one person is able to earn that reward by his actions alone. Because of that, a person is saved by God's mercy. However, a person is still expected to live according to God's laws and prohibitions because only then does he or she have a right to hope for that mercy.This is an excellent explanation.
I would go a step further and describe the "moment" of salvation as when that transaction takes place-
when God forgives you,
and you are now His own.

The Bible says that God gives the Holy Spirit to a believer as the "guarantee" of their inheritance-
the inheritance being Eternal Life.
The Holy Spirit then enables a believer to live that life that is pleasing to God,
and to experience communion with Him, here on earth.

Virgil

02-08-2007, 01:53 PM

One point Virgil: Revelation and Interpetation are two majorly different things. I will say no more than that, but think along those lines. Remember The Six Blind Men and the Elephant? God Bless.

I've never heard the six blind men and the elephant. But why would God allow some to recieve revelation (for instance, natives of some tropical island could not be expected to learn of Christ) and why would He allow intepretation to vary?

subterranean

02-08-2007, 08:44 PM

Quite interesting. I quite understand with the concept of imperishable soul in Hinduism and why the concept of "salvation of the soul" does not apply. However, I think when the cycle continues the soul is actually in the state of "not yet saved" because it continues to pass on to next lives. It's only when it comes to perfection and the cycle is stop that the soul is completely saved (the moment of salvation, to use Pen's term).

I'm not a Hindu so please enlighten me if I don't get the concept correctly.

I dont personally believe in a perishable soul

From the Bhagavad Gita

I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to dispel it even if I win a prosperous, unrivaled kingdom on earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven.

BG 2.9: Sañjaya said: Having spoken thus, Arjuna, chastiser of enemies, told Kṛṣṇa, "Govinda, I shall not fight," and fell silent.

BG 2.10: O descendant of Bharata, at that time Kṛṣṇa, smiling, in the midst of both the armies, spoke the following words to the grief-stricken Arjuna.

BG 2.11: The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor for the dead.

BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

BG 2.13: As the embodied soul continuously passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. A sober person is not bewildered by such a change.

Orionsbelt

02-08-2007, 08:49 PM

I've never heard the six blind men and the elephant. But why would God allow some to recieve revelation (for instance, natives of some tropical island could not be expected to learn of Christ) and why would He allow intepretation to vary?

Six blind men are brought to an elephant and asked to describe the experience to each other. One has hold of the trunk, another the tail, a third a foot, the forth an ear.... etc. Each describes an experience that is very real but only part of the truth. Going back to the statement that you had made earlier with regard to this creative force being concerned with the lives of humans. In my opinion, it applies here. He doesn't. It's our job to figure it out. Problem is some folks don't know that they have a disability. The worst case for me is "I didn't even try to figure it out" The traditional texts were recorded from an oral tradition so the collective ken evolved with science and maturity. The curse of modern religion is the fact that someone could write something on paper that should never have passed on for more than one hundred years. ... pertaining to the topic at hand ... the salvation of modern religion is the ability to communicate so many ideas. One blind man once wrote about his experience with an elephant and ten thousand million others, thousands of years later, believe every word is true. All of this in spite of Monumental evidence to the contrary. No ones fault. It's just us. God's last words to mankind... "sorry for the inconvenience".

Virgil

02-08-2007, 09:40 PM

Six blind men are brought to an elephant and asked to describe the experience to each other. One has hold of the trunk, another the tail, a third a foot, the forth an ear.... etc. Each describes an experience that is very real but only part of the truth.

Oh thanks. But my question would still apply. Why would God let us see only a portion?

Pendragon

02-09-2007, 12:54 PM

I am sorry, Virgil, mon ami. I thought everyone knew that old tale! my bad. Going back to your question. I really believe that it is all there for us to see. If not in written form, in the very creation. Man has always sought for answers to things like "Why do we die?" "What makes the sun rise and set?" "Why is this snake poisonous but that one, which looks similar isn't?" But how we then interpret things becomes cloudy. There’s a Bible verse “Trust in the Lord with all thy heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy path.” We grow up, just as a child does, and we no longer trust. Then bad things may make us realize what we once had, or they may embitter us to the point where we want nothing to do with God. Just like children. I really don’t have all the answers, and I am willing to say so. Better an honest “I don’t know.” than a pack of lies that I will face at Judgment Day. God bless.

Virgil

02-09-2007, 02:21 PM

Thanks Pen. I only raise questions. In the end one can only trust in the Lord.

Orionsbelt

02-09-2007, 02:23 PM

Oh thanks. But my question would still apply. Why would God let us see only a portion?

Yep it does. I'm the wrong guy to answer. I don't think anything is hidden. I don't think there is any cosmic guy hiding it. I think we don't know how to find things:) . There is a difference. Working to find promotes understanding. Understanding would in theory contribute to appropriate use.

I can always dream.

Whifflingpin

02-10-2007, 07:56 AM

Virgil: "This is very interesting Whiff. I have a question (not just to you but to all), why do you think that God allows many different religions to develop rather than reveal the one true one?"

I don't think God is very interested in religion. Behaviour, now, that is something else.

-- That looks rather flippant, but I think I'll go with Pen's verse - again. It is not with our understanding, our mind, or our ability to spin dogma that we will come to God. We may, on the other hand, each have a relationship with God, and each relationship will be unique, as we are unique. Oh, OK, back to the six elephants...

Pendragon

02-10-2007, 10:14 AM

Thanks Pen. I only raise questions. In the end one can only trust in the Lord.
And in the end, that was the point I wanted to make with this entire post. Whatever you do or don't do in the name of religion is all fine as far as that goes. Following a set of rules and regulations is OK, I have nothing against it, and I do believe that there is such a thing as sin, and doing things with which God is not pleased. But as the Rich Young Ruler shows, you can follow the rules to the letter and still not make it. Someone mentioned that loving God and loving your neighbor was Jesus' definition of fullfilling the law. True. Who is your neighbor? Anyone that needs you. In the end, we must trust God's grace, "for his mercy abideth forever." God Bless.

Virgil

02-10-2007, 10:33 AM

I've never heard the six blind men and the elephant. But why would God allow some to recieve revelation (for instance, natives of some tropical island could not be expected to learn of Christ) and why would He allow intepretation to vary?

Let me add (not answer because I can't really) to my own question. Many (perhaps close to twenty) years ago I came across in a magazine interview this question, and was given to I believe a Muslim theologian. Unfortunately my memory is foggy on this so the exact details are vague. But i do remember the question, and the answer was one of the most brilliant I have ever heard. I had wavered in my belief in God prior to that, but I think that was one of the critical pieces of information that pushed me into a believer, albeit perhaps unconventional. The answer seemed to simultaneously validate personal understaqnding of God and the need for traditional cultural conventions. I didn't think too much of it at the time, but the answer ruminated in my mind until an epiphany came to me. Unfortunately the magazine is long gone, and I can't quite remember the answer or the theologian. It went along the lines that Pen and Whiff have discussed, but it was more. Something about the lines of tradition which seek their understanding of God that wrap and intertwine. I wish I could be more specific. And so this question sticks in my mind, and for which I am constantly searching for an answer. In many respects this is the fundamental question to understanding God: why have on earth more than one religious belief system?

Whifflingpin

02-10-2007, 11:37 AM

"why have on earth more than one religious belief system?"

The critical words in the question are "on earth."

We cannot understand God fully, or directly, so in the first instance we relate God to what we know, especially to the most important influences in our lives. So God is seen in the role of a parent, a father or mother figure depending on whether our society is patriarchal or matriarchal. The perception/description of God by desert nomads is likely to be harsher that that offered by settled pastoralists. And so on. This is not because God differs, but people simply understand God as a greater version of what they are familiar with.

As long as a person is content with such a view, it serves well enough as an approach to God. It also serves purely human social functions, binding together, and justifying, communities of people of similar experience.

But, religion is like St Paul's dark glass. It protects us from the blinding light of God, but to know him we must see beyond it and risk/rejoice in being consumed - OK. I'm talking drivel....

So - recasting the original question - why does God not reveal himself fully to each human at birth? would that not save a lot of trouble? It would, so perhaps we could make the question into an accusation against God, condemning him as a tormentor. Or, we could make the question the end point of our search for God, saying that if he does not choose to reveal himself plainly when he could then he does not exist. Or, we could make the question a start point in trying to understand God's operations and our part, if any, in them.

Not being a Christian, I don't believe in Jesus as God-on-earth, but the Temptations of Christ offer a valid description of God's dilemma, and a description of his decision. Symbolically, at least, God is tempted to interfere dramatically and use his power openly and directly. He declines, firmly. I take it that means it is up to us to carry out his purposes within our sphere....

Stumbles off mumbling...

Virgil

02-10-2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks Whiff. I always look forward to your answers on such matters.

Pendragon

02-11-2007, 11:02 AM

The critical words in the question are "on earth."

We cannot understand God fully, or directly, so in the first instance we relate God to what we know, especially to the most important influences in our lives. So God is seen in the role of a parent, a father or mother figure depending on whether our society is patriarchal or matriarchal. The perception/description of God by desert nomads is likely to be harsher that that offered by settled pastoralists. And so on. This is not because God differs, but people simply understand God as a greater version of what they are familiar with.

Not a bad comparison, Wiff. I might add that people are also childlike in that they are terrified in letting go of what is familiar to them. If there comes a point where God might perhaps nudge them down a different path, they become like Linus clinging to his security blanket. No! This is all I know, and I refuse to change! Sometimes the change may be good for you. That is why the scripture says "Try the spirits to see if they be of God". Perhaps stubbornness is man's worst stumbling block when it comes to God.

I like a song that Don Francisco sings that says in part:

"Well, I hear you been wondering why the Heaven's turned to brass—
Well, ain't no point in looking for that snake in the grass—
Don't yell at your wife, and don't kick the cat—
Just tell God the truth—You know He'll listen to that!

Say "It's my own fault, I went ahead and did it—
It's my own fault, can't blame no body but m'self!
It's my own fault, I went ahead and did it—
No matter how much I might want to I just can't blame nobody else!"

God Bless.