god?

[Triskele]

Is there a God? In my own biased and certainly narrow perspective I do not know. To me, it is all theodicy, this vague reference to all the evil in the world. Whilst my minds eye sees such a glimmer of the ethereal, and certainly dares not the audacity to parade my own personal lack of epiphany above the embittered tears of love and hate shed in the name of this concept. But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions. This void that is opinion, the bleak, empty vacuum of several centuries of unproven theories that opens wide and long. This lack of value may seem at first to dazzle the mind with glaring and empty questions, this flash of a query leaves the intelligent mind ever blind to mundane thoughts as it travels ever onward in the pursuit of the answer to that age old question. Or, in other words, I don’t really know, but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my life

[cuppajoe_9]

Short answer: no.

Long answer: probably not.

[Redzeppelin]

Short answer: yes.
Long answer: absolutely yes.

This question will not be answered by theories and "evidence" - it will be answered by your response to God's "invitation." Since He created all of us, at some point or other (and perhaps many times) throughout our lives, He coaxes us towards Him by giving us situations and or convictions that Life may indeed be more than we have thought it to be. When that prompting comes, you may choose to answer to choose to ignore. But if God isn't real, then Life becomes fairly meaningless and the evil of humanity beyond terrifying.

[cuppajoe_9]

This question will not be answered by theories and "evidence" - it will be answered by your response to God's "invitation."Mine seems to be lost in the mail.


But if God isn't real, then Life becomes fairly meaningless...I don't think there's any getting around that with or without God.

[mtpspur]

I believe there are many gods. I believe that there is only one LIVING God and He is revealed in the Bible and manifested in the flesh as the Lord Christ. I need no other answer to life's mysteries.

[Redzeppelin]

Mine seems to be lost in the mail.

That may actually be true, because once you accept the existence of God, you also have to accept the existence of the Devil, who - understandably - is quite interested in the idea that you never, ever get "the message." Thankfully, God's smarter, and He has no problem with repeat invitations. You may be surprised what life has to offer you as you pass into middle age. Your sharp mind reminds me a bit of CS Lewis, who was a staunch atheist during the early part of his life. He realized much later (as recounted in Surprised By Joy) how slowly but surely God began to whittle away his defenses.


I don't think there's any getting around that with or without God.

Perhaps. But the existence of God (and of Satan) provide an explanation that provides a context for the evil man is capable of by attributing its inspiration to a figure of supernatural dimensions (which does not excuse humanity's choice to commit evil - but explains the atrocious degrees to which human beings will drop).

[cuppajoe_9]

That may actually be true, because once you accept the existence of God, you also have to accept the existence of the Devil, who - understandably - is quite interested in the idea that you never, ever get "the message."For one thing, the fist part of this statement is false. I stopped believing in Satan long before I stopped beliving in God. And second, I do not find that to be at all understandable.

Frankly Red, this is one of my pet peeves. I am not ignoring God, I am not denying God, I am not angry with God and I do not personally dislike God. For any of those things to be true, I would have to believe that God exists.


You may be surprised what life has to offer you as you pass into middle age. Your sharp mind reminds me a bit of CS Lewis, who was a staunch atheist during the early part of his life.I am torn between being flattered by the C.S. Lewis comparison, and being vaguely offended by the implication that the reason I believe what I do is that I'm young and don't know any better.


Perhaps. But the existence of God (and of Satan) provide an explanation that provides a context for the evil man is capable of by attributing its inspiration to a figure of supernatural dimensions (which does not excuse humanity's choice to commit evil - but explains the atrocious degrees to which human beings will drop).In my opinion, giving God credit for the good that men do is selling them short, and blaming Satan for the evil that they do is letting them off easy.

[Triskele]

For one thing, the fist part of this statement is false. I stopped believing in Satan long before I stopped beliving in God. And second, I do not find that to be at all understandable.

Frankly Red, this is one of my pet peeves. I am not ignoring God, I am not denying God, I am not angry with God and I do not personally dislike God. For any of those things to be true, I would have to believe that God exists.

I am torn between being flattered by the C.S. Lewis comparison, and being vaguely offended by the implication that the reason I believe what I do is that I'm young and don't know any better.

In my opinion, giving God credit for the good that men do is selling them short, and blaming Satan for the evil that they do is letting them off easy.


right here with you in a fairly indecisive way. while i see no evidence towards gods existance, i also see no evidence to the contrary. although i wonder, in your admittance as an atheist, doesn't it seem as though by believing as you do would come off as saying that all those with theophonatic expiriences are deluded. and as to red, i simply ask, if god exists, than why does the majority of the worlds population exist in a state of destitute poverty, wouldn't that give the impression that the devil is winning?

[Triskele]

I believe there are many gods. I believe that there is only one LIVING God and He is revealed in the Bible and manifested in the flesh as the Lord Christ. I need no other answer to life's mysteries.

that seems rather solipsistic...

[Redzeppelin]

For one thing, the fist part of this statement is false. I stopped believing in Satan long before I stopped beliving in God. And second, I do not find that to be at all understandable.

OK. First: according to the Bible, you don't get one without the other (at least right now). Satan was created by God and will exist until the end where Satan will finally be defeated. Removing Satan from the equation neatly (but inaccurately) puts the burden of the existence of evil on God. Wrong on all counts.

Second, even though Milton wasn't speaking directly for God, his depiction of Satan and his fallen angels' strategy strikes me as correct: we are not strong enough to assualt God directly, so we will destroy that which He loves: humanity and the creation of Earth. We see the same kind of terrible tactics here on Earth: the terrible method of coercing people by torturing not themselves, but someone they love.

This life is a battle, and the battle is being waged by both angelic and demonic forces. God "woos" us, but He doesn't "woo" in a vacuum: He has an opponent who is actively engaged against his efforts.


Frankly Red, this is one of my pet peeves. I am not ignoring God, I am not denying God, I am not angry with God and I do not personally dislike God. For any of those things to be true, I would have to believe that God exists.

Who said you were doing any of the above? You took my metaphoric "invitation" and responded to it. I responded to that. Where's all this stuff you claim was being attributed to you?


I am torn between being flattered by the C.S. Lewis comparison, and being vaguely offended by the implication that the reason I believe what I do is that I'm young and don't know any better...

Wow..."full shields up," eh captain? That was a legitimate compliment. My students know that I don't drop that kind of comparison casually. They would be in awe that I said any such thing about someone half my age. I happen to have tremendous respect for CSL. I implied nothing of the sort that you are suggesting - only that life sometimes goes differently than we expect - even if one is an intelligent atheist who has confidently argued God into a corner.


In my opinion, giving God credit for the good that men do is selling them short, and blaming Satan for the evil that they do is letting them off easy.

I said no such thing. My post clearly indicated that humanity is responsible fully for the choice to commit evil; however, the inspiration may often be attributed to Satan's influence (as well as our own flesh). According to the Bible, the only reason that "good" exists in humanity is because God put it there and He is working in all of us - even those who claim He doesn't exist.

[Adelheid]

Is there a God? In my own biased and certainly narrow perspective I do not know. To me, it is all theodicy, this vague reference to all the evil in the world. Whilst my minds eye sees such a glimmer of the ethereal, and certainly dares not the audacity to parade my own personal lack of epiphany above the embittered tears of love and hate shed in the name of this concept. But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions. This void that is opinion, the bleak, empty vacuum of several centuries of unproven theories that opens wide and long. This lack of value may seem at first to dazzle the mind with glaring and empty questions, this flash of a query leaves the intelligent mind ever blind to mundane thoughts as it travels ever onward in the pursuit of the answer to that age old question. Or, in other words, I don’t really know, but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my life

Hi Triskele,

Your confusion is rather understanderble, especially if you've not had anyone to help you and guide you. If you really want help- really want to know God (if there is such a God) you should seek help from a Pastor.

But, if you are not willing to go that far, it's fine too. There is something that I can suggest: You should speak to God. If there really is a God, He will answer you. If the God of the Bible is as loving as the Bible says He is, and wants to communicate to you the extent of His love for you as badly as the Bible says, He will do so. Everytime we think of God, we think of a faraway Being- divine, huge, unsurpassed, and unreacheable. It is not the case. God is a close God, One who wants to be near us, near YOU.

You should find a quiet spot, with no distractions. If you are spending time with a friend, you will give him/her your attention. That is exactly what you must do. You are hosting God when you speak to Him, and you should at least decide to give Him your time and attention. Then talk to Him- as if He is really there. Ask Him if He is real- or whatever you choose.

And then WAIT. Many people- myself included- rush away after 'talking' to him. A one way conversation is no conversation at all. Wait for a reply. It may not be verbal. It may not be instant- He may be thinking of how to reply you, I don't know. But it may not be immediately. But as you muse on what you have just asked Him, a warm feeling will fill your heart. I often does with mine. It is as if God puts some reassuring pressure on our hearts (like we do on our friends hands when they are worried).

Do try it and let me know. :) God bless, Adelheid. :angel:

[Orionsbelt]

Short answer: no.

Long answer: probably not.


Short answer: yes.
Long answer: absolutely yes.

Where you two married in a previous life?

I share your thoughts. So far the medium answer is I think you have to choose for yourself. You will find nothing other than circumstance as evidence either way.

Or you can just be like me.... shot out of a cannon and enjoying the flight. :yawnb:

I don't see any need to be in a hurry.

[Wintermute]

Triskele, I'm with you--I don't have a clue. The fact that the universe appears to exist tells me something amazing is going on. And I'm happy with this. I think that knowing for certain (100%) what's going on in the universe would be counterproductive and possibly lead to fanaticism--look at the 911 hijackers. I dare say they were 100% certain.

Your paragraph expresses uncertainty beautifully, and I thank you for it.

[Redzeppelin]

Where you two married in a previous life?

Not at all. I liked joe's brevity because it communicated decisiveness, so I mirrored his strucure.


I share your thoughts. So far the medium answer is I think you have to choose for yourself. You will find nothing other than circumstance as evidence either way.

Or you can just be like me.... shot out of a cannon and enjoying the flight. :yawnb:

I don't see any need to be in a hurry.

For once, you and I agree - it is a choice, absolutely. But, in terms of the need to "hurry" - this is where the believer and non-believer disagree: the believer knows that Life here on Earth is on a time-table - one that has a definite end (which, even if you don't see it, your own life will end and that is an unknown event in terms of scheduling); as such, believers know that it is imperative that such a choice not be put off.

[byquist]

Short answer: if you've noticed an instance of good, you've noticed God.

[Wintermute]

Short answer: if you've noticed an instance of good, you've noticed God.

Hi Byquist,

Could you elaborate a bit? How does an instance of good imply that a God exists? Couldn't something be good naturally--without the influence of an omnipotent creator? My cat, Indy, is as good as they come. Her presence is so comforting and her love is absolutely real; every interaction with her is an instance of good. But for the life of me I can't understand how this equates to 100% certainty that a God exists.

[Redzeppelin]

Byquist:

Well said: I agree. The presence of Good is the presence of God.

[Orionsbelt]

Not at all. I liked joe's brevity because it communicated decisiveness, so I mirrored his structure.

I enjoy both of your comments. I was simply making an observation.;)

You are correct in stating that I don't believe as you do. I do appreciate you looking for your own truth within your chosen system of belief. The same applies to cuppajoe. The banter is sometimes very entertaining. Like an old couple that have been married for many years.:p

[Redzeppelin]

I enjoy both of your comments. I was simply making an observation.;)

You are correct in stating that I don't believe as you do. I do appreciate you looking for your own truth within your chosen system of belief. The same applies to cuppajoe. The banter is sometimes very entertaining. Like an old couple that have been married for many years.:p

I'll accept your comments in the good spirit they are given and return the :)

[Triskele]

Hi Triskele,

Your confusion is rather understanderble, especially if you've not had anyone to help you and guide you. If you really want help- really want to know God (if there is such a God) you should seek help from a Pastor.

But, if you are not willing to go that far, it's fine too. There is something that I can suggest: You should speak to God. If there really is a God, He will answer you. If the God of the Bible is as loving as the Bible says He is, and wants to communicate to you the extent of His love for you as badly as the Bible says, He will do so. Everytime we think of God, we think of a faraway Being- divine, huge, unsurpassed, and unreacheable. It is not the case. God is a close God, One who wants to be near us, near YOU.

You should find a quiet spot, with no distractions. If you are spending time with a friend, you will give him/her your attention. That is exactly what you must do. You are hosting God when you speak to Him, and you should at least decide to give Him your time and attention. Then talk to Him- as if He is really there. Ask Him if He is real- or whatever you choose.

And then WAIT. Many people- myself included- rush away after 'talking' to him. A one way conversation is no conversation at all. Wait for a reply. It may not be verbal. It may not be instant- He may be thinking of how to reply you, I don't know. But it may not be immediately. But as you muse on what you have just asked Him, a warm feeling will fill your heart. I often does with mine. It is as if God puts some reassuring pressure on our hearts (like we do on our friends hands when they are worried).

Do try it and let me know. :) God bless, Adelheid. :angel:


heya, out of curiosity, wouldn't seeking help from a pastor be sort of like asking a question of someone when you already know the answer they will give. i hear what you are saying and the problem is, i have been raised with the belief in god, never questioning his presence, i guess sort of a biblical superego. but to date, he has never spoken to me, i have never spoken to him, and if eighteen years is too short of a time to hear from god, then maybe he isn't so all powerful, and if he isn't then what is he, because that wouldn't be god at all. also, the idea of an omnicient god coexisting with free will seems to contadict itself. to me, as i think about it more and more by myself, we make very few actual decisions ourselves, with the level of genetic and social programming i have undergone seems to undermine the concept of free will, the basis of the christian religion, perhaps buddhism, or hinduism or baha'i has more of an accurate picture but i haven't read enough, and expirienced enough of these worldviews to offer an opinion yet.

[mtpspur]

Ah solipsistic--I freely admit I had to look that one up and agree completely. I am secure in my sense of self and state before the God of the Bible. Can't always look in the mirror but I know I live in a state of grace. I'm 2 sins short of being a stiff-necked Pharisee and very aware of the difference. Wish I was more of a publican. Thanks triskele for the notice. Good to be seen for what we are.

[Jetxa]

As a pantheist, I see God as the "source" of all life. I see life as "all" that exists. It's the ways and means of "believing" that booger us all up and set us against each other.

[Redzeppelin]

but to date, he has never spoken to me, i have never spoken to him, and if eighteen years is too short of a time to hear from god, then maybe he isn't so all powerful, and if he isn't then what is he, because that wouldn't be god at all.

This kind of depends on what you mean by "speak." Are you talking about a literal voice you can physically hear? God doesn't generally speak like that to people any more. He may very well have been speaking to you before now - but you may have mistaken His voice for something else. Those times in your life when you wondered if there were more than what is; when you felt that something in your life was incomplete, or needed to change; that moment of exquisite beauty that made your heart ache and spoke of something beyond our human ability to understand - ? All those things may well have been the voice of God. May I suggest that the fact that you are even asking now might very well be due to His prompting in your heart? Before God speaks clearly to us, sometimes we have to quiet down the noise of our lives. The book of Ezekiel, I believe, speaks of the "still small voice of God." He rarely speaks in thunder, but more like a whisper.


also, the idea of an omnicient god coexisting with free will seems to contadict itself. to me, as i think about it more and more by myself, we make very few actual decisions ourselves, with the level of genetic and social programming i have undergone seems to undermine the concept of free will, the basis of the christian religion, perhaps buddhism, or hinduism or baha'i has more of an accurate picture but i haven't read enough, and expirienced enough of these worldviews to offer an opinion yet.

All these things - important as they are - come secondary to knowing God. Just as when you were a child and you trusted your parents without fully understanding the extent of their power or abilities, God asks us to trust Him. Hypotheses - convincing as they are - are not fact.

[Triskele]

Ah solipsistic--I freely admit I had to look that one up and agree completely. I am secure in my sense of self and state before the God of the Bible. Can't always look in the mirror but I know I live in a state of grace. I'm 2 sins short of being a stiff-necked Pharisee and very aware of the difference. Wish I was more of a publican. Thanks triskele for the notice. Good to be seen for what we are.

no problem, and thank you for not being defensive about it, like i find many people on this site are, this thread seems bereft of close minded people though

[Triskele]

[QUOTE=Redzeppelin;324513]This kind of depends on what you mean by "speak." Are you talking about a literal voice you can physically hear? God doesn't generally speak like that to people any more. He may very well have been speaking to you before now - but you may have mistaken His voice for something else. Those times in your life when you wondered if there were more than what is; when you felt that something in your life was incomplete, or needed to change; that moment of exquisite beauty that made your heart ache and spoke of something beyond our human ability to understand - ? All those things may well have been the voice of God. May I suggest that the fact that you are even asking now might very well be due to His prompting in your heart? Before God speaks clearly to us, sometimes we have to quiet down the noise of our lives. The book of Ezekiel, I believe, speaks of the "still small voice of God." He rarely speaks in thunder, but more like a whisper.

i actually find myself to be a bit more existentialist and so lack this hope that i am something more, i am proud to be simply human and i think to imply that we must be more assumes something of an arrogance that i am not willing to draw upon myself, i do however see what you mean about a whisper, but i think that these "whispers you speak of are mearly insightful imaginations from my own mind. whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy?

[Adelheid]

Hi Triskele!

You'd be surprised with the answer you get from a pastor. If you want to learn about medicine, you learn from a doctor (even though you know the type of answer he will give). Similarly, if you want to learn about God, you ask a pastor. Besides, in most cases, they are just there to guide you, not to push you or anything.

Also, God has not spoken to you because you have not spoken to Him. YOU must initiate the conversation. If you want to get to know a classmate, you talk to him. You can sit there waiting for Him to come up to you and talk- but wait till the cows come home, and chances are you are unlikely to talk to him. You have to start the conversation off. It's the same thing with God.

And anyway, it's a very easy thing to do. Just talk to Him with the desire to really converse with Him! It's no good just doing it halfheartedly. God knows your heart, and I don't see why He should talk to a half-hearted listener when there are many other eager listeners around. But if you really want to talk to Him, you have to set aside time to do so.

ok... hope this helps. :)

[Wintermute]

Ah solipsistic--I freely admit I had to look that one up. . .

Hehe, me too Mtpspur. Now the task is getting my rapidly aging synapses to remember it and to use it occasionally. Thanks for the word Triskele!

[Wintermute]

And anyway, it's a very easy thing to do. Just talk to Him with the desire to really converse with Him! It's no good just doing it halfheartedly. God knows your heart, and I don't see why He should talk to a half-hearted listener when there are many other eager listeners around. But if you really want to talk to Him, you have to set aside time to do so.

ok... hope this helps. :)

Hi Adelheid,

It's certainly not so easy for me! I can only promise you that I've tried. The problem is that I'm unable to shed my doubts about the existance of a God, so it's difficult. Do you need to be 100% certain that God exists in order to have a conversation with him/her/it?

I'm sitting squarely atop the fence, 50% God exists, 50% it doesn't. I'm pretty sure the Christian god is a human constuct, but not 100% certain. And just because I can't accept the Christian ideas does not by any means exclude the possibility that a wonderful, omnipotent creator exists. I hope it does!

Do you have any advice for me? Thanks.

[sciencefan]

Is there a God? In my own biased and certainly narrow perspective I do not know. To me, it is all theodicy, this vague reference to all the evil in the world. Whilst my minds eye sees such a glimmer of the ethereal, and certainly dares not the audacity to parade my own personal lack of epiphany above the embittered tears of love and hate shed in the name of this concept. But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions. This void that is opinion, the bleak, empty vacuum of several centuries of unproven theories that opens wide and long. This lack of value may seem at first to dazzle the mind with glaring and empty questions, this flash of a query leaves the intelligent mind ever blind to mundane thoughts as it travels ever onward in the pursuit of the answer to that age old question. Or, in other words, I don’t really know, but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my lifeI believe there is a God.
He touches my heart personally with joy and comfort.
He is real to me.
I believe in the God of the Bible:
the LORD God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
I believe He is Good.
You might want to visit ChristianForums.com
You can feel free to talk about God, and ask questions.

[Triskele]

short answer1: if you've noticed an instance of good, then you may have seen someone being nice.

long answer1: assuming that god has a role in all instances of good places all the responsibility on god, which denies the free will apparently within us. this arrogant assumption that god must exist in the world because there is good is ridiculous because that would necessarily link the devil to all bad, and so make the devil inherantly more powerful, which kinda contradicts the point of religion, which is to give us hope.

short answer2: if you have noticed a moment of passing beauty, or a particualrly well made natural landscape, the you may have seen god.

long answer2: i think that if we link god to all that is beautiful and wonderful and not necessarily man made, then we have a better theoretic possibility of an aesthetically coordinated god existing, merely showing his presence through slight glimpses of beauty.

[Triskele]

Hi Triskele!

You'd be surprised with the answer you get from a pastor. If you want to learn about medicine, you learn from a doctor (even though you know the type of answer he will give). Similarly, if you want to learn about God, you ask a pastor. Besides, in most cases, they are just there to guide you, not to push you or anything.

Also, God has not spoken to you because you have not spoken to Him. YOU must initiate the conversation. If you want to get to know a classmate, you talk to him. You can sit there waiting for Him to come up to you and talk- but wait till the cows come home, and chances are you are unlikely to talk to him. You have to start the conversation off. It's the same thing with God.

And anyway, it's a very easy thing to do. Just talk to Him with the desire to really converse with Him! It's no good just doing it halfheartedly. God knows your heart, and I don't see why He should talk to a half-hearted listener when there are many other eager listeners around. But if you really want to talk to Him, you have to set aside time to do so.

ok... hope this helps. :)


but this is opperating on the assumption that god does exist and that i want to learn about him, what if he doesn't exist, would i then be stuck in an ampty field vainly waiting for an answer

[Triskele]

Hi Adelheid,

It's certainly not so easy for me! I can only promise you that I've tried. The problem is that I'm unable to shed my doubts about the existance of a God, so it's difficult. Do you need to be 100% certain that God exists in order to have a conversation with him/her/it?

I'm sitting squarely atop the fence, 50% God exists, 50% it doesn't. I'm pretty sure the Christian god is a human constuct, but not 100% certain. And just because I can't accept the Christian ideas does not by any means exclude the possibility that a wonderful, omnipotent creator exists. I hope it does!

Do you have any advice for me? Thanks.

or that it is more of an eastern cyclical life concept that all life is equal and we make ourselves into the higher beings that could exist. or maybe even there are more than one god, or one god and many aspects, or we have simply seen a few aspects of many unknown gods, or like marx said "humanity is the peak of mankind", a bit of hegelian dialectic thought in that quote, but i think it is still relavent.

[Triskele]

I believe there is a God.
He touches my heart personally with joy and comfort.
He is real to me.
I believe in the God of the Bible:
the LORD God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth.
I believe He is Good.
You might want to visit ChristianForums.com
You can feel free to talk about God, and ask questions.

but to visit a christian site, with the agnostic beliefs that i hold, would merely hold the possibility of offending someone who believes strongly in god, because many people exist who think it blasphemy that agnostics haven't fugured it out yet.

[Wintermute]

or that it is more of an eastern cyclical life concept that all life is equal and we make ourselves into the higher beings that could exist. or maybe even there are more than one god, or one god and many aspects, or we have simply seen a few aspects of many unknown gods, or like marx said "humanity is the peak of mankind", a bit of hegelian dialectic thought in that quote, but i think it is still relavent.

Sure. Or that The Matrix was not just science fiction. Anything is possible, nothing is certain--in my opinion.

[Orionsbelt]

But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions. This void that is opinion, the bleak, empty vacuum of several centuries of unproven theories that opens wide and long. ..., I don’t really know, but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my life

I would point out that you are free to adjust you attitude. Bleak and empty are your own perspective. Perhaps frustration? I prefer fascinating and adventuresome. Why not intrigue... you are looking for a treasure that nobody else has found you should not expect a map with an X on it. Several maps exist with X already on them for your choosing. I like looking at maps. In the end I prefer to walk through the woods in a place where nobody else has been. Maybe in those places God will speak to you.

[Triskele]

Sure. Or that The Matrix was not just science fiction. Anything is possible, nothing is certain--in my opinion.

i hear that, natural law is essentially a useless and disproven theory, even by most physicists these days. who knows, maybe it is true, that knowledge without understanding us useless.

[Triskele]

I would point out that you are free to adjust you attitude. Bleak and empty are your own perspective. Perhaps frustration? I prefer fascinating and adventuresome. Why not intrigue... you are looking for a treasure that nobody else has found you should not expect a map with an X on it. Several maps exist with X already on them for your choosing. I like looking at maps. In the end I prefer to walk through the woods in a place where nobody else has been. Maybe in those places God will speak to you.

or maybe in my realization that god does not exist i will despair, or perhaps take joy in that knowledge, the realization that all my accomplishments were genuinely me, not god acting through me.

[GimmyDiamond]

Hey Triskele
Just out of cuiosity, WHY do you want to know if there is a God? Perhaps you already answered this in some way that has escaped my notice, in which case I apologize, sorry. So, if you get a chance, let me know . . . thanks for the thread though, it's been interesting reading for sure :)
gimmy

[Redzeppelin]

i actually find myself to be a bit more existentialist and so lack this hope that i am something more, i am proud to be simply human and i think to imply that we must be more assumes something of an arrogance that i am not willing to draw upon myself, i do however see what you mean about a whisper, but i think that these "whispers you speak of are mearly insightful imaginations from my own mind. whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy?

I think, when one looks at the superior achievements of humanity - of Shakespeare, of Mozart, of Michaelangelo - that we see that there are incredible heights to which humans can rise; those sublime moments are achieved by humans who I believe are striving to reach for that "something more" that they believe life contains; I think, also, that it is fairly normal to look at life and, on occasion, ask "Isn't there more than this?" If people like Kurt Cobain with money, power and influence can stick a shotgun in their mouth, then that tells me that life must have more to it than that which many of us pursue. I see no arrogance in believing that there is more to life, more to my life, than simple existence - of day-to-day routine.

Of course you assume the "whisperings" come from your own head; if one doesn't believe in God, then to think otherwise would be to flirt with being labled insane; but: Christians believe that all good comes from God working within us - that without His presence in us (and the Bible [Ecclesiastes, I believe] tells us that God has "implanted eternity in our hearts") that we are incapable of doing good, doing right, of loving each other at all.



You'd be surprised with the answer you get from a pastor. If you want to learn about medicine, you learn from a doctor (even though you know the type of answer he will give). Similarly, if you want to learn about God, you ask a pastor. Besides, in most cases, they are just there to guide you, not to push you or anything.

Also, God has not spoken to you because you have not spoken to Him. YOU must initiate the conversation. If you want to get to know a classmate, you talk to him. You can sit there waiting for Him to come up to you and talk- but wait till the cows come home, and chances are you are unlikely to talk to him. You have to start the conversation off. It's the same thing with God.

And anyway, it's a very easy thing to do. Just talk to Him with the desire to really converse with Him! It's no good just doing it halfheartedly. God knows your heart, and I don't see why He should talk to a half-hearted listener when there are many other eager listeners around. But if you really want to talk to Him, you have to set aside time to do so.

This is well said, and I agree for the most part, except: I think God always "makes the first move" because God's love for us makes Him the "wooer" (ie the bridegroom) and us the "wooed" (the bride). I think God constantly tries to get our attention, but we cannot always hear His voice, or we misinterpret His voice as our own thoughts, or some strange idea that we can't get out of our mind. God moves first - our desire to talk to Him at all comes from Him.

[Triskele]

Hey Triskele
Just out of cuiosity, WHY do you want to know if there is a God? Perhaps you already answered this in some way that has escaped my notice, in which case I apologize, sorry. So, if you get a chance, let me know . . . thanks for the thread though, it's been interesting reading for sure :)
gimmy

why, i don't really know, it seems like a valid question, and it has never been decisively answered, and several wars have been fought over the concept of religion, the world is thrown into turmoil right now with extremist sects killing thousands of people in the name of a being that may or may not exist, it is certainly not imperative to my well being but considering the times we live in i think it is a highly relavent debate, do you know, want to know, or would you just rather avoid the confusion, and why?

[Triskele]

I think, when one looks at the superior achievements of humanity - of Shakespeare, of Mozart, of Michaelangelo - that we see that there are incredible heights to which humans can rise; those sublime moments are achieved by humans who I believe are striving to reach for that "something more" that they believe life contains; I think, also, that it is fairly normal to look at life and, on occasion, ask "Isn't there more than this?" If people like Kurt Cobain with money, power and influence can stick a shotgun in their mouth, then that tells me that life must have more to it than that which many of us pursue. I see no arrogance in believing that there is more to life, more to my life, than simple existence - of day-to-day routine.

but to me, although i haven't figured it out, it seems that they could also be trying for the magnificence on the assumption that there is nothing more, and so the legacy the leave on earth is their last impression. i do however see what you mean, in that truly inspired people seem to be almost in their own world because they see so far above our mundane wanderings. i don't know, freakin' questions that pop into my head without a conclusive argument, in fact, at this point i am really just playing devils advocate (assuming i suppose, the existance of such a being, perhaps the flying spagetti monsters advocate.?.) because the responses are great, and the fact that with such polarized viewpoints represented, it is amazing to me the respect all parties on this thread have for each other, no insults or put downs, only age old arguments, and new thoughtful queries.

[sciencefan]

but to visit a christian site, with the agnostic beliefs that i hold, would merely hold the possibility of offending someone who believes strongly in god, because many people exist who think it blasphemy that agnostics haven't fugured it out yet.Perhaps I misunderstood you.
I thought you wanted to ask honest questions about God.
Many agnostics are members at the site I recommended.
There is a forum where non-Christians can ask Christians questions.
There are also many other forums.
You would not offend anyone - unless you were just plain rude and obnoxious.

[Triskele]

Perhaps I misunderstood you.
I thought you wanted to ask honest questions about God.
Many agnostics are members at the site I recommended.
There is a forum where non-Christians can ask Christians questions.
There are also many other forums.
You would not offend anyone - unless you were just plain rude and obnoxious.

i do want to ask honest questions about god, i was not being rude or obnoxious, or at least not trying to, i realize that this is a fairly sensative subject for many staunch religious people, and for the secular among us to elaborate on theoretical situations often offends people, and i don't want to be the idiot and inconsiderate fool who goes on a sight devoted to religion and contradicts all who speak, surely you can realize my mistake if you consider the name of the site that you recommended, i might just try this site you speak of, i really don't know, but i will not disregard it out of hand.

[sciencefan]

i do want to ask honest questions about god, i was not being rude or obnoxious, or at least not trying to, i realize that this is a fairly sensative subject for many staunch religious people, and for the secular among us to elaborate on theoretical situations often offends people, and i don't want to be the idiot and inconsiderate fool who goes on a sight devoted to religion and contradicts all who speak, surely you can realize my mistake if you consider the name of the site that you recommended, i might just try this site you speak of, i really don't know, but i will not disregard it out of hand.Yes, you're right.
The name does not give the impression of an eclectic community, but it is widely varied.
What I meant was:
IF you go to ChristianForums.com, AND you are rude and obnoxious, you will most likely offend people.
However, it IS a place for asking honest questions, and people will not be offended by that alone, so you need not worry about that.

[Triskele]

alrighty then, glad we got that bit of misinterpritation squared away, and i think it is true that if i am rude and obnoxious ANYWHERE people will get annoyed, thanks for the tip about the site.

[byquist]

Could you elaborate a bit? How does an instance of good imply that a God exists? Couldn't something be good naturally--without the influence of an omnipotent creator? My cat, Indy, is as good as they come. Her presence is so comforting and her love is absolutely real; every interaction with her is an instance of good. But for the life of me I can't understand how this equates to 100% certainty that a God exists.

W, Probably I was emphasizing the word "notice," -- noticing, noting or taking note of, something good, whether human, animal or vegetable. Noticing, as being about the process of being conscious; or consciousness. Materialists would say that consciousness arises from the Big Bang, Darwinism and our brain popping every day. Others down through a few millennia have equated good with God, Allah, Om, whatever, and as comprising or constituting all consciousness, of which our individual awareness (our noticing of instances) is a particularized instance; thus, that we don't see good independent of a link to the source of it. Some say that's fiddlesticks, think that it's too much of a simpleton view, or prefer materialism; everyone's entitled. Although some or many may dispute, good and natural are totally linked terms, and thus your cat is a delight and my dog is unmatchable. True nature and good are identical. Again, many philosophers call that tripe but it surely is more fun. It could be likened to the contrast between the focused and disciplined New Criticism vs. the freedom of Reader-Response approaches to Lit. Criticism. B

[Wintermute]

W, Probably I was emphasizing the word "notice," -- noticing, noting or taking note of, something good, whether human, animal or vegetable. Noticing, as being about the process of being conscious; or consciousness. Materialists would say that consciousness arises from the Big Bang, Darwinism and our brain popping every day. Others down through a few millennia have equated good with God, Allah, Om, whatever, and as comprising or constituting all consciousness, of which our individual awareness (our noticing of instances) is a particularized instance; thus, that we don't see good independent of a link to the source of it. Some say that's fiddlesticks, think that it's too much of a simpleton view, or prefer materialism; everyone's entitled. Although some or many may dispute, good and natural are totally linked terms, and thus your cat is a delight and my dog is unmatchable. True nature and good are identical. Again, many philosophers call that tripe but it surely is more fun. It could be likened to the contrast between the focused and disciplined New Criticism vs. the freedom of Reader-Response approaches to Lit. Criticism. B

Hi Byquist,

You are so far beyond me my friend. I've just read this twice and have no idea what you are talking about. I'm just a stoopid, 50 year old geek trying to understand how the existance of goodness in the world proves with any certainty that a universal creator exists.

I think that in order to be gut-level happy, one needs to follow what Christians know as the golden rule. I think if you are mean, greedy, or otherwise not doing to others as you would have others treat you, you can not achieve true happiness. True happiness = enlightenment = heaven in my opinion. So, goodness is directly related to true happiness. But, this does not prove that some omnipotetent, eternal, sky-daddy is up there directing the whole show.

[byquist]

trying to understand how the existance of goodness in the world proves with any certainty that a universal creator exists.

I think that in order to be gut-level happy, one needs to follow what Christians know as the golden rule. I think if you are mean, greedy, or otherwise not doing to others as you would have others treat you, you can not achieve true happiness. True happiness = enlightenment = heaven in my opinion. So, goodness is directly related to true happiness. But, this does not prove that some omnipotetent, eternal, sky-daddy is up there directing the whole show.

Forget what I put into such long-winded words, which should be deconstructed and put to rest.

Agree with you that kindness and charitableness is ideally the right behavior, even if spat upon, although I know a person who would run all over me if I was too soft; they thrive on debate and always want a verbal battle.

But getting back to the connection between good and divinity, not just good and humanity, and proof thereof. Ps. says, "The earth is full of the goodness of the Lord." One can fight and oppose that assertion and say: nope, no goodness going on. Or say: what goodness there is, is strictly of human origin; strictly secular. Or, one can explore and evaluate what effects are engendered when one, out of a bit of humility, accepts goodness as derived from divine power. One would have to "agree" with accepting it for a length of time to really have a fair test. One could only test "omnipotence" by accepting it for awhile and awaiting what arises as a result; say for a year. We resist the relinquishing our ego because we like our ego; but its gotta go for this type of test.

One wouldn't be looking for some big thing in the sky; nobody looks for that. But if you get wonderful intuitions or inspirations, some new and reasonably-grand event or person enter your life, wouldn't that qualify?

[PersistantMind]

These are not my words...but the lyrics of All Shall Perish (they are atheists) . This band's lyrics are all about how we are controlled by the "lies" (lies is in quotations not because I do believe them to be lies but for the sake of those who believe that they are not lies) of politics and religion. I have quite a bit to post so I will cut my own comments short until there are replies.

Herding the Brainwashed-

Such a sick site brainwashed millions
Minions following their leader eating
Up its propaganda Terrified of not
Having their answer in a world
Where people are so blind These
Greedy f*cks control their minds
Inbreeding ideals for the weak
I wont follow blindly your faith wont
Bring you **** The cold reality is that
We are born to die no one has
The f*cking answers past this life
All the lies that you hold so sacred to
Be truth Are nothing more than a plot
To control you Religion enslaves the
Minds of Those to weak to think
For themselves Sedated with their god
The price that you pay is the life that
You wasted Living up to their standards
Blatant hypocrisy Your answer for
Tragedy Your life is a mockery
If you are scared to think Of living a
Bull**** free life of non conformity
Then Bow to the Deity
Gods are mans worst creation

We Hold These Truths-

Slowly slip away. I've forgotten all
Your desperations. This endeavor makes
Further decay
I know we have all known for so long
Of the truth
We've lived under capitals rule
...Know - All of their progress is
Laced with the dead
They will never have the power
We've always had
Now don't f*cking forget
They have killed with no questions
Again
Always tried to demand our respect?
With every life
Taken for lies
Your demise fills our eyes
You....
Cant escape all of this tragedy
Face all the truths of our destiny
They've abandoned our needs.
We won't die for your greed and we're
Here to bring you, to bring you to your
Knees
To your f*ckin' knees
Force you to your knees
Make your last requests, and begin to
Slowly slip away
I've forgotten all your desperations
I will prove that your god can not save
I know, we have all known, for so long
Of the truth
We died for their profits like fools
Know...All of their progress is laced
With the dead,
And they will never have the power
We've always had
Never f*cking forget.

Our Own Grave-

My ever waking contempt for our sick way of life steals from me any
Last hope for us as a species
To survive ourselves I watch us breed, I watch us drown in our oily
Seas of greed forever lost...
A time before the machine manufactured ideals pushed onus all day a
Few shall dictate as we fall
Disillusioned I tear away all the bullsh*t fed to me every day Choking
As I'm smothered in the media
Swarms of pressured thoughts distorted truths are your words for me
Manufactured ideals pushed
On us all a few shall decide as we all fall disillusioned I tear away
All the bullsh*t fed to me
Everyday our world stands on its last withering legs and I struggle to
Find a reason to care
For your pained screams are echoed in the laughter of those who seal
Our fate... they seal our fate
My ever waking contempt for our sick way of life steals from me any
Last hope for... Survival of us
As a species lost I watch us dig our grave our own f*cking grave

Consider those words. If you do not understand the relevance of the lyrics I would be happy to translate ;) .

[Redzeppelin]

These are not my words...but the lyrics of All Shall Perish (they are atheists) . This band's lyrics are all about how we are controlled by the "lies" (lies is in quotations not because I do believe them to be lies but for the sake of those who believe that they are not lies) of politics and religion. I have quite a bit to post so I will cut my own comments short until there are replies.

Herding the Brainwashed-

Such a sick site brainwashed millions
Minions following their leader eating
Up its propaganda Terrified of not
Having their answer in a world
Where people are so blind These
Greedy f*cks control their minds
Inbreeding ideals for the weak
I wont follow blindly your faith wont
Bring you **** The cold reality is that
We are born to die no one has
The f*cking answers past this life
All the lies that you hold so sacred to
Be truth Are nothing more than a plot
To control you Religion enslaves the
Minds of Those to weak to think
For themselves Sedated with their god
The price that you pay is the life that
You wasted Living up to their standards
Blatant hypocrisy Your answer for
Tragedy Your life is a mockery
If you are scared to think Of living a
Bull**** free life of non conformity
Then Bow to the Deity
Gods are mans worst creation

We Hold These Truths-

Slowly slip away. I've forgotten all
Your desperations. This endeavor makes
Further decay
I know we have all known for so long
Of the truth
We've lived under capitals rule
...Know - All of their progress is
Laced with the dead
They will never have the power
We've always had
Now don't f*cking forget
They have killed with no questions
Again
Always tried to demand our respect?
With every life
Taken for lies
Your demise fills our eyes
You....
Cant escape all of this tragedy
Face all the truths of our destiny
They've abandoned our needs.
We won't die for your greed and we're
Here to bring you, to bring you to your
Knees
To your f*ckin' knees
Force you to your knees
Make your last requests, and begin to
Slowly slip away
I've forgotten all your desperations
I will prove that your god can not save
I know, we have all known, for so long
Of the truth
We died for their profits like fools
Know...All of their progress is laced
With the dead,
And they will never have the power
We've always had
Never f*cking forget.

Our Own Grave-

My ever waking contempt for our sick way of life steals from me any
Last hope for us as a species
To survive ourselves I watch us breed, I watch us drown in our oily
Seas of greed forever lost...
A time before the machine manufactured ideals pushed onus all day a
Few shall dictate as we fall
Disillusioned I tear away all the bullsh*t fed to me every day Choking
As I'm smothered in the media
Swarms of pressured thoughts distorted truths are your words for me
Manufactured ideals pushed
On us all a few shall decide as we all fall disillusioned I tear away
All the bullsh*t fed to me
Everyday our world stands on its last withering legs and I struggle to
Find a reason to care
For your pained screams are echoed in the laughter of those who seal
Our fate... they seal our fate
My ever waking contempt for our sick way of life steals from me any
Last hope for... Survival of us
As a species lost I watch us dig our grave our own f*cking grave

Consider those words. If you do not understand the relevance of the lyrics I would be happy to translate ;) .


No need - they're quite self-explanatory: the writers have picked out the exceptional (not overall) characteristics of Christianity that reveal its flaws and weaknesses (as perpetuated by deluded and ungodly individuals) - (I'm ignoring the political part). So? Every institution in the world has these.
It's quite easy to dismiss as "lies" that which a) we don't agree with, or b) we don't understand. Is this song supposed to prove something beyond the fact that angry and misguided people wish to verbally assualt religion?

[Wintermute]

One wouldn't be looking for some big thing in the sky; nobody looks for that. But if you get wonderful intuitions or inspirations, some new and reasonably-grand event or person enter your life, wouldn't that qualify?

One afternoon several years ago I was in deep despair. I shant bore you with the details--suffice it to say that I felt as though I had lost everything that was of value to me. I was even considering an early, permanent...retirement from my worldly woes. I went for a walk by a lake and sat on the bank. In the corner of my vision I saw a movement. I looked, and there sat a wonderful blue heron, not 10 feet from me. He was standing in the shallows--he'd come to fish I suppose. But we made eye contact. Me and this bird spent what seemed an amazing amount of time looking into one another's eyes. I kid you not, I felt an inner warmth, and my depression began to fade. Eventually he bowed his head (perhaps I imagined this part) and took wing. A few minutes later I heard a splashing in the water a ways up the lake to my right. As I watched a beaver swam along the shoreline. And she was putting on a show! I swear, she would roll on her back for a while, spin, dive under, and come up with a splash. She was as happy as a beaver could possibly be. And she swam on past me. Just a few seconds later a woodpecker flew past on the same course the beaver had followed. He too was making a hell of a racket. I realized then that my saddness and depression were completely gone. I felt an almost overwhelming sense of joy--life was suddenly good again! That evening it occured to me that perhaps this had not been a completely random event. I imagined that the heron had been 'sent' to show me his strenght and to encourge me to be strong during my time of discord. And I thought that maybe the beaver was telling me to lighten up--to have some fun--life is a gas, enjoy it. And the woodpecker? The woodpecker was telling me to listen to the beaver.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean by 'wonderful intuitions or inspirations, some new and reasonably-grand event', but it certainly fits my definition of such.

[PersistantMind]

No, that was just meant as an opening to the several arguements that I have towards ALL religion, not to prove something. It was only posted so you could ponder it.
They talk about how religious wars have plagued us and others for WAY too long, and also about how we live our lives according to someone else's standard. You said "So? Every institution in the world has these." like it is no big deal that these problems exist. They are not only attacking Christianity but every institution that has these flaws. As a side note I would like it if you did not refer to people like me as "deluded" or "angry and misguided". I do not call religious people "blind sheep who are too dumb to think for themselves" so I expect the same respect from you.

My first questions to those who are religious is this.....why do you believe in god? Why do you work so hard to please him? Most answer "I do not want to go to hell." That my friend, like it or not, is being ruled by fear. What do you think people would act like if there was no punishment from god? Do you think that they would still listen to his words, or would they ignore them? Maybe they would follow some but not others. My point here is that the concept of hell was put into the Bible to scare people into believing and worshiping. In my book that is wrong. The whole concept of hell is flawed anyway. An all loving and forgiving God would never send someone to an eternity of pain. An all loving God would punish those who did wrong yes, but not to the severity of an eternity in hell. Say you kill someone, you should have a punishment of equal severity, an eternity of torture is not equal severity.Christianity was a way of morally evolving our species and organizing us into a more civilized union. Hell was just a tactic created to recruit others into the Christian way of thinking. Once again I will await replies so as to not over crowd the conversation.

[hyperborean]

Now I know why you are a "slave no longer", persistantmind. ;)

[Redzeppelin]

They are not only attacking Christianity but every institution that has these flaws.

Fine - but that doesn't change the fact that you posted it in a forum dealing with God - so I think the implication is pretty clear (especially since political discussion is verboten on Lit-Net).


As a side note I would like it if you did not refer to people like me as "deluded" or "angry and misguided". I do not call religious people "blind sheep who are too dumb to think for themselves" so I expect the same respect from you.

Did you write those higly offensive lyrics? If so, then I guess I was talking about you. If you didn't, then I wasn't. Anybody that mired in such poisonous cynicism is deluded, is angry, and is IMO misguided. No one disrespected you, sir. And as far as the "blind sheep" part, don't worry, there are plenty others posting here who have already done me that pleasure more than once.


My first questions to those who are religious is this.....why do you believe in god? Why do you work so hard to please him? Most answer "I do not want to go to hell."

"Most" Christians in existence? "Most" in America? "Most" you happen to know? "Most" you see portrayed on TV? "Most" on your block? Would you care to qualify "most" so that it has some meaning to those of us who do not know where your figures are coming from?


That my friend, like it or not, is being ruled by fear. What do you think people would act like if there was no punishment from god? Do you think that they would still listen to his words, or would they ignore them? Maybe they would follow some but not others. My point here is that the concept of hell was put into the Bible to scare people into believing and worshiping. In my book that is wrong. The whole concept of hell is flawed anyway. An all loving and forgiving God would never send someone to an eternity of pain. An all loving God would punish those who did wrong yes, but not to the severity of an eternity in hell. Say you kill someone, you should have a punishment of equal severity, an eternity of torture is not equal severity.Christianity was a way of morally evolving our species and organizing us into a more civilized union. Hell was just a tactic created to recruit others into the Christian way of thinking. Once again I will await replies so as to not over crowd the conversation.

I agree with you that a loving God cannot logically disburse eternal punishment for temporal sins. However, your idea that it was a "tactic" is silly and has no substantiation whatsoever. Hell exists - just not perhaps in the form that we've been led to believe. But don't go down that road of humans inserted hell into the Bible to "recruit" others. The Apostles died horrible deaths for their beliefs - people don't face crucifixions and being flayed alive just so that church membership is higher. There is no logical basis for the idea that the Bible is a tool of manipulation. Read it first, and read it carefully before you make such assertions, please.

[watkinsguy]

I am a Christian, and I do not care about hell, whether I will go there, or whether such a place exists. I have no doubts in my faith, and that is good enough for me. Red is one of the best apologectists on this forum, so I will await her replies most eagerly :)

[byquist]

Wintermute, Yea that's a great experience; most inspiring.

I think these moments are potentially available more continuously, if our expectations are modest and we're grateful for little things. Last night while channel skipping I saw something special on Animal Planet. There's this baby elephant that has lost part of one leg due to a land mine. And the gal is taking care of the baby and they're going to develop a prosthetic foot for the little tyke. It was so wonderful to see her love for that elephant; really uplifting.

And then the next story was this lady taking care of baby rhinos, rubbing their stomaches and treating them as her pets; and you can see their feelings and response to her.

One thing that really inspired me last Fall was a gal whose skydiving parachute did not open and she landed, even on concrete perhaps (but check that out since it sounds impossible -- its on the internet in the mid-West USA). She finds out later that she was pregnant. She survived although needing some reconstruction. The baby was fine. I believe she stated that she felt a sense of "protection" and "safety" from a higher power before she landed.

[PersistantMind]

Fine - but that doesn't change the fact that you posted it in a forum dealing with God - so I think the implication is pretty clear (especially since political discussion is verboten on Lit-Net).

That is obvious...I was just stating that it is not directed at Christianity alone.



Did you write those higly offensive lyrics? If so, then I guess I was talking about you. If you didn't, then I wasn't. Anybody that mired in such poisonous cynicism is deluded, is angry, and is IMO misguided. No one disrespected you, sir.

These people think like I do that is why I stated people like me. Even if it is not a direct attack towards me, it is a direct attack towards my way of thinking. You would probably be angry if I said Christians are deluded. Yes, it is angry...and for a very good reason. Millions of lives lost shouldn't be taken so lightly. This is my last response to anything of this nature...this is the second time I have stated my views on it and that is enough considering that it is not relevant to the arguement.




"Most" Christians in existence? "Most" in America? "Most" you happen to know? "Most" you see portrayed on TV? "Most" on your block? Would you care to qualify "most" so that it has some meaning to those of us who do not know where your figures are coming from?

What I meant and thought I was putting clearly was most that I have asked. I never implied anything else. Tell me...what is your reason for believing in God?




I agree with you that a loving God cannot logically disburse eternal punishment for temporal sins. However, your idea that it was a "tactic" is silly and has no substantiation whatsoever. Hell exists - just not perhaps in the form that we've been led to believe. But don't go down that road of humans inserted hell into the Bible to "recruit" others. The Apostles died horrible deaths for their beliefs - people don't face crucifixions and being flayed alive just so that church membership is higher. There is no logical basis for the idea that the Bible is a tool of manipulation. Read it first, and read it carefully before you make such assertions, please.

How can you not believe in something that your Bible says exists? Some things you take literally and others metaphorically? Sounds a bit hypocritical.

You do not believe that the idea of hell is correct and you still worship him as an all loving God. WOW.
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war:the Lord is his name"

There is a great amount of logic in the idea that Hell was used as a tactic to recruit members. Tell me, if the government gives you the option of paying a tax or eternal torture, which would you choose?

Again...I await replies.

And hyperborean you are 100% correct.

[Redzeppelin]

That is obvious...I was just stating that it is not directed at Christianity alone.

These people think like I do that is why I stated people like me. Even if it is not a direct attack towards me, it is a direct attack towards my way of thinking. You would probably be angry if I said Christians are deluded. Yes, it is angry...and for a very good reason. Millions of lives lost shouldn't be taken so lightly. This is my last response to anything of this nature...this is the second time I have stated my views on it and that is enough considering that it is not relevant to the arguement.

My apologies if I have offended you. I responded a little harshly because the lyrics you posted struck me as the equivalent of an attack on Christianity. Here - check this out:



All the lies that you hold so sacred to
Be truth Are nothing more than a plot
To control you Religion enslaves the
Minds of Those to weak to think
For themselves Sedated with their god
The price that you pay is the life that
You wasted Living up to their standards
Blatant hypocrisy Your answer for
Tragedy Your life is a mockery
If you are scared to think Of living a
Bull**** free life of non conformity
Then Bow to the Deity
Gods are mans worst creation


As a believer in God, I think it's pretty reasonable to see this as a pretty clear attempt to smear religion with broad strokes.


What I meant and thought I was putting clearly was most that I have asked. I never implied anything else. Tell me...what is your reason for believing in God?

God allows reality to make sense. All other answers make life meaningless and answers to how we got here beyond belief. Life is more than it appears to be. God is the answer to all the problems in this life.


How can you not believe in something that your Bible says exists? Some things you take literally and others metaphorically? Sounds a bit hypocritical.

I didn't say it didn't exist - I said I question its existence in the way it's been portrayed. Hypocritical? Where have I said something and then contradicted it?


You do not believe that the idea of hell is correct and you still worship him as an all loving God. WOW.
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war:the Lord is his name"

I don't understand this comment.


There is a great amount of logic in the idea that Hell was used as a tactic to recruit members. Tell me, if the government gives you the option of paying a tax or eternal torture, which would you choose?

Again...I await replies.



If God isn't real, why recruit anybody to believe in him? Hell is complete and total separation from God. None of us experience that right now - even those who deny His existence and curse His name are still under His protection and are still connected to Him. Once that separation occurs, death would be a mercy. You can try to dismiss Christianity into political ploys, but it won't work. Movements based solely on manipulation do not change lives like Christianity has.

[billyjack]

Hell is complete and total separation from God. Once that separation occurs, death would be a mercy. You can try to dismiss Christianity into political ploys, but it won't work. Movements based solely on manipulation do not change lives like Christianity has.

being seperated would mean not being the same as, correct? if man is denies himself his birthright of being god ( not the all powerful god, but the natural, spontaneous, waymaking one that everything and everyone is), then doesnt this mean man is seperate from god, not one with god? so from what i have gathered, "most" christians don't feel themselves to be god, so wouldnt that imply seperation. if you're not him, then you are seperate from him--and in hell?. language has entangled somthing here...

"death would be a mercy". phrases like that might scare people into believing ideas that contradict their own personal experiences. but i read somewhere on this thread that christianity doesnt scare people into their religion. "death would be a mercy" sounds like a threat.

[shadowy girl]

hey , I am A MOSLIM, and I know why some of you ..do not believe in GOD, that we cal in our Islam "ALLAH"
look around you..who made and created all this??????
trees and mountains, rivers and flowers,,,, HUMANS AND WITH NO BRAINS ...................................
all his creation........... everything around you even you, prove his existence

[Matrim Cuathon]

that has to be the worst post on this subject ive ever seen. well not the worst, but fairly close.

[shadowy girl]

"But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions."
questions don't need to be answered but by yourself!

"but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my life"
you just lost faith, or you never even had it!!!!! in my consideraition I tell you .. you DO NOT LIVE WITHOUT GOD..you need him! and now you are serchin for questions that are already answered? and you call them "un answered"???
THERE IS A GOD , even BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN!! COZ HE GAVE YOU THIS LIFE!!

[Dorian Gray]

Why does anyone have to create us? Why can't some things just be?

If God created us, who created God? Or did he just poof! into existence? If that is the case, perhaps we poofed into existence too and didn't need some divine entity. ;)

Humans can't stand ignorance. We're always desperately trying to explain things. Why is the universe infinite? Where do we come from? Are there aliens? We're really not clever enough to find out the answer so we basically just make something up. God covers most questions. How convenient. The existence of God can't be proven. We just have to believe that this book that was written over 2,000 years ago somehow holds the answers to the biggest mystery of all. It was written in a time where the majority of society was too uneducated to be literate and too simple-minded and scared to disagree with the government. I've seen too much blood spilt in the name of God, Allah, etc.

In Ancient Egypt, they had many Gods. Same goes for the Romans and Norse Gods. Now we know they were wrong and laugh at their myths. What makes you think our Gods are real? I still consider the bible a work of fiction and God an imaginary friend for adults. Always have, always will. If there truly is a God, I cannot believe he would allow for millions of people to suffer for no reason. God moves in mysterious ways. Oh please. Heaven and Hell are created so we'll do as we're told. Not to mention the fact that some stories in the bible are ridiculous... If God is really that violent and unforgiving, that is not someone I want to worship even if he does exist.

[Matrim Cuathon]

"But rather in my uncertainty have reached such a conclusion as to point into the vacuum of unanswerable questions."
questions don't need to be answered but by yourself!

"but feel the need to give the question more time, and by more time, I mean the rest of my life"
you just lost faith, or you never even had it!!!!! in my consideraition I tell you .. you DO NOT LIVE WITHOUT GOD..you need him! and now you are serchin for questions that are already answered? and you call them "un answered"???
THERE IS A GOD , even BEFORE YOU WERE EVEN BORN!! COZ HE GAVE YOU THIS LIFE!!

posting here with such a terrible command of english will just make you look dumb lol. and even the ideas i understand are horribly senseless.

[shadowy girl]

IN iSLAM my dear, such things are answered, no one created allah, and it's forbidden for us to ask, coz only allah knows everything.. he says in his Holly quraan, like your bible, but without one single letter changed that:Allah has no sons, and he is only one, not like some cristians believe ..... and of cours humans and with there own nature ask such questions, if we all only stayed with our religions such questions would not be asked on Interbet forums ...

see ya

[shadowy girl]

posting here with such a terrible command of english will just make you look dumb lol. and even the ideas i understand are horribly senseless.

oh you terrible craeture!!!
1-i'm only 14.
2- I'm arabic
3- we arab are better coz we learn your pathetic language
4- I just knew that English people are awful( considering you one of them)!! which is not a good thing for your language and country ..... LOL!!

[shadowy girl]

Why does anyone have to create us? Why can't some things just be?

If God created us, who created God? Or did he just poof! into existence? If that is the case, perhaps we poofed into existence too and didn't need some divine entity. ;)

Humans can't stand ignorance. We're always desperately trying to explain things. Why is the universe infinite? Where do we come from? Are there aliens? We're really not clever enough to find out the answer so we basically just make something up. God covers most questions. How convenient. The existence of God can't be proven. We just have to believe that this book that was written over 2,000 years ago somehow holds the answers to the biggest mystery of all. It was written in a time where the majority of society was too uneducated to be literate and too simple-minded and scared to disagree with the government. I've seen too much blood spilt in the name of God, Allah, etc.

In Ancient Egypt, they had many Gods. Same goes for the Romans and Norse Gods. Now we know they were wrong and laugh at their myths. What makes you think our Gods are real? I still consider the bible a work of fiction and God an imaginary friend for adults. Always have, always will. If there truly is a God, I cannot believe he would allow for millions of people to suffer for no reason. God moves in mysterious ways. Oh please. Heaven and Hell are created so we'll do as we're told. Not to mention the fact that some stories in the bible are ridiculous... If God is really that violent and unforgiving, that is not someone I want to worship even if he does exist.

one thing I say to you, but don't be angry..
the Holly quara'an (our bible in Islam) is completly true, with every letter in it and every word
besides ..... your bible is being vchanged every year, so not all verses are tottaly right, are they??
and as for romans and Ancient Egyptions, they did not live in the Islam was to be sendedn to people, only Romans were beated by mulsoms, weren't they??
I believe and obey in what my religion commands me , and you do the same with yours, and with all religions ... GOd must not be insuluted .. so someone close this post now!

[Dorian Gray]

How do you know your bible is true?

I don't have a bible. Only religious people do. But you mean the Christian one I'm sure.

Topics are being made about God every day. He can't send everyone who's ever insulted him to hell. There will be no one left. :P

[Matrim Cuathon]

oh you terrible craeture!!!
1-i'm only 14.
2- I'm arabic
3- we arab are better coz we learn your pathetic language
4- I just knew that English people are awful( considering you one of them)!! which is not a good thing for your language and country ..... LOL!!

im sorry, im mena becuase your posts make no sense and even when they do, the ideas are silly and just say because?
that makes about as much sense as your other posts which elicited my comment in the first place :)

[shadowy girl]

How do you know your bible is true?

I don't have a bible. Only religious people do. But you mean the Christian one I'm sure.

Topics are being made about God every day. He can't send everyone who's ever insulted him to hell. There will be no one left. :P

but it's always my duty, and every religioned person, to stop it

[Matrim Cuathon]

to stop people going to hell?
other than that your comment makes no sense.

[shadowy girl]

im sorry, im mena becuase your posts make no sense and even when they do, the ideas are silly and just say because?
that makes about as much sense as your other posts which elicited my comment in the first place :)

well, if that is your opinion in my posts, all I say that i'm telling my own point or view

[shadowy girl]

to stop people going to hell?
other than that your comment makes no sense.

well, some people pull themselves to there>>GOD FORGIVE YOU!:)

[shadowy girl]

How do you know your bible is true?

I don't have a bible. Only religious people do. But you mean the Christian one I'm sure.

Topics are being made about God every day. He can't send everyone who's ever insulted him to hell. There will be no one left. :P

and about our bible...:yawnb: it's called qura'an, and it has been reserved since the messenger and prophet" mohammed" was doing his duty as a messenger of god ...by the way, do you even believ in him?

about hell, allah fogives who asks for his satisfaction and foregivness

[Bookworm4Him]

Mine seems to be lost in the mail.

We've been sitting here telling you about God. What more of an invitation do you want? Do you expect Him to send you an actually letter that tells you exactly how to accept?
Well he did that too! It's called the Bible! :D

[Dorian Gray]

Well he did that too! It's called the Bible! :D

God doesn't write. Humans do. Humans also lie and deceive.

It's just a book. No one knows for sure it's the absolute truth. If I write a book and say: These are the words of God, will people believe me? Of course not. So why is the Bible any different? Just because it's old? People are a lot more evolved now than they were back then.

[Bookworm4Him]

I don't see any need to be in a hurry. Someone gets killed in a car crash every eleven seconds. That's just in car crashes. There are so many other things that could happen. You don't know when you're going to die. How can you say that you're not in a hurry?



Hi Triskele,

Your confusion is rather understanderble, especially if you've not had anyone to help you and guide you. If you really want help- really want to know God (if there is such a God) you should seek help from a Pastor.

But, if you are not willing to go that far, it's fine too. There is something that I can suggest: You should speak to God. If there really is a God, He will answer you. If the God of the Bible is as loving as the Bible says He is, and wants to communicate to you the extent of His love for you as badly as the Bible says, He will do so. Everytime we think of God, we think of a faraway Being- divine, huge, unsurpassed, and unreacheable. It is not the case. God is a close God, One who wants to be near us, near YOU.

You should find a quiet spot, with no distractions. If you are spending time with a friend, you will give him/her your attention. That is exactly what you must do. You are hosting God when you speak to Him, and you should at least decide to give Him your time and attention. Then talk to Him- as if He is really there. Ask Him if He is real- or whatever you choose.

And then WAIT. Many people- myself included- rush away after 'talking' to him. A one way conversation is no conversation at all. Wait for a reply. It may not be verbal. It may not be instant- He may be thinking of how to reply you, I don't know. But it may not be immediately. But as you muse on what you have just asked Him, a warm feeling will fill your heart. I often does with mine. It is as if God puts some reassuring pressure on our hearts (like we do on our friends hands when they are worried).

Do try it and let me know. :) God bless, Adelheid. :angel:

Amen. Triskele, you've been feeling the pull of God. He wants you to come to know Him. I could give you scientific facts, but you need to have faith. Take Adelheid's advice. Just ask Him to reveal Himself, and see what He says. Do you have a Bible? Just ask God to show you Himself, and just open up the Bible and read. He will show Himself. I hope I'll see you in Heaven one day!

[Bookworm4Him]

One afternoon several years ago I was in deep despair. I shant bore you with the details--suffice it to say that I felt as though I had lost everything that was of value to me. I was even considering an early, permanent...retirement from my worldly woes. I went for a walk by a lake and sat on the bank. In the corner of my vision I saw a movement. I looked, and there sat a wonderful blue heron, not 10 feet from me. He was standing in the shallows--he'd come to fish I suppose. But we made eye contact. Me and this bird spent what seemed an amazing amount of time looking into one another's eyes. I kid you not, I felt an inner warmth, and my depression began to fade. Eventually he bowed his head (perhaps I imagined this part) and took wing. A few minutes later I heard a splashing in the water a ways up the lake to my right. As I watched a beaver swam along the shoreline. And she was putting on a show! I swear, she would roll on her back for a while, spin, dive under, and come up with a splash. She was as happy as a beaver could possibly be. And she swam on past me. Just a few seconds later a woodpecker flew past on the same course the beaver had followed. He too was making a hell of a racket. I realized then that my saddness and depression were completely gone. I felt an almost overwhelming sense of joy--life was suddenly good again! That evening it occured to me that perhaps this had not been a completely random event. I imagined that the heron had been 'sent' to show me his strenght and to encourge me to be strong during my time of discord. And I thought that maybe the beaver was telling me to lighten up--to have some fun--life is a gas, enjoy it. And the woodpecker? The woodpecker was telling me to listen to the beaver.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean by 'wonderful intuitions or inspirations, some new and reasonably-grand event', but it certainly fits my definition of such.

Well, for whatever happened, I'm sorry. As for the animals, and that feeling, isn't it amazing! That can be experienced in the embrace of a close friend, or just in looking at the beauty of things. And people say there isn't a difference btw. good and bad. That is good, if I ever experienced it. Doesn't that give you the feeling like there is something worth living for? I experience that most when I read the Bible and talked to God. A sence of peace falls over me... I'll stop now. But wouldn't it be terrible if that ended forever...

[Redzeppelin]

Why does anyone have to create us? Why can't some things just be?

Because all matter is created and cannot exist on its own - so therefore, there must be a "first cause" (to paraphrase Aristotle - the "Unmoved Mover") to bring all matter into existence. That's why.


If God created us, who created God? Or did he just poof! into existence? If that is the case, perhaps we poofed into existence too and didn't need some divine entity. ;)

If you had read the Bible (the book you're attempting to criticize) it would tell you that God has always existed - He was not created; He is the only uncreated Being in the universe. The idea that we just "poofed" into existence would be called "evolution" and it's equally as absurd as you make God out to be.


Humans can't stand ignorance. We're always desperately trying to explain things. Why is the universe infinite? Where do we come from? Are there aliens? We're really not clever enough to find out the answer so we basically just make something up.

That or make fun of the answers that we don't like provided by others .


God covers most questions. How convenient. The existence of God can't be proven.

Maybe God "covers most questions" because He is the only answer capable of covering most of our questions. Ever consider that? No - He can't be proven - like much of what you call "reality" cannot be "proven." Here's a neat trick: He can't be disproven either - because to claim that God doesn't exist would require you to have exhaustive knowledge of all that does exist - are you claiming that?


We just have to believe that this book that was written over 2,000 years ago somehow holds the answers to the biggest mystery of all. It was written in a time where the majority of society was too uneducated to be literate and too simple-minded and scared to disagree with the government. I've seen too much blood spilt in the name of God, Allah, etc.

My friend, you don't have to believe anything you don't want to. If God isn't real, then yes, the Bible is absurd; if He is real (He is), then it makes perfect sense that a Being capable of creating the universe can make sure His Word gets properly written and edited. As far as your dismissal of ancient society - please. I suppose you'd dismiss Plato, Aristotle and the genius of Homer while you're at it - right? And again, if God's behind the writers, then it doesn't matter what the culture does/doesn't know. Blood's been spilt by believers and non alike. Fanatical killing isn't an exclusive club only for the religious.


In Ancient Egypt, they had many Gods. Same goes for the Romans and Norse Gods. Now we know they were wrong and laugh at their myths. What makes you think our Gods are real? I still consider the bible a work of fiction and God an imaginary friend for adults.

Nice. Have you even read it? It's truths are profound - many atheists will at least admit that, even if denying the truth of God's existence.


Always have, always will. If there truly is a God, I cannot believe he would allow for millions of people to suffer for no reason. God moves in mysterious ways. Oh please. Heaven and Hell are created so we'll do as we're told. Not to mention the fact that some stories in the bible are ridiculous... If God is really that violent and unforgiving, that is not someone I want to worship even if he does exist.

"No reason" implies that you - in your exhaustive knowledge of reality - cannot fathom a reason, so therefore a reason must not exist. If God is who He claims to be (omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent), then that puts you and me at the range of a 2-year old and Him as Einstein (a poor comparison, but Einstein's the smartest we had). The God you're demanding isn't realistic - it is the demand of someone who wants a Creator who runs the world to his liking - much like a child who demands that a parent accede to his limited view of reality (mom and dad won't let me eat ice cream for every meal; therefore, they are unfair and I hate them). I will admit that the presence of evil and suffering in this world are troubling, but Christ's sacrifice is an equal trade - all now have access to eternal life.

[Matrim Cuathon]

lots of religions have profound truths. big deal.

and by the way, omnipotence isntpossible.

[shadowy girl]

We've been sitting here telling you about God. What more of an invitation do you want? Do you expect Him to send you an actually letter that tells you exactly how to accept?
Well he did that too! It's called the Bible! :D


I agree with you!! and not only the bible was send, also all other Bibles in all other religions ;)

[shadowy girl]

God doesn't write. Humans do. Humans also lie and deceive.

It's just a book. No one knows for sure it's the absolute truth. If I write a book and say: These are the words of God, will people believe me? Of course not. So why is the Bible any different? Just because it's old? People are a lot more evolved now than they were back then.

but the Qura'an(moslims bible) is completly complete, and not one human being has ever changed it, as god promised to reserve evry letter and idea in it!

[Redzeppelin]

lots of religions have profound truths. big deal.

But none can make the same claims with the same authority; nor can all others answer certain questions about the universe or the nature of God.


and by the way, omnipotence isntpossible.

Easily said - only people with exhaustive knowledge of the universe and what's in it could make such a statement; are you that person?

[hyperinsomnia]

How do you know that no person has ever changed the Bible?
It never ceases to amaze me how passionate people are about this subject.
In regard to the Bible, although it provided sufficient answers... Back in the day; I think it's safe to say that now it has been proved completely wrong. I'll never understand why people get so heated over the existence of God; there are people who believe it and people who don't. In between the two extremes are most of the people I know, willing to admit that the character of Jesus in the Bible portrays a decent role model, and the book itself contains morals that wouldn't hurt to be understood. The book was simply written in the way that it was, explaining creation the way it does, to better communicate the true morals, lessons and answers for people of that time, being... not as educated. We aren't meant to take every word in it seriously, that includes the "creation" story, but rather to listen to the moral of the stories, and so live our lives righteously, or whatever.
It was intended at the time, of course, to control the masses, but it is impossible to deny that there is some truth to religion.
The simple answer to the meaning of life is that there is no meaning, anyone that’s studied science can tell you that there are more conceivable suggestions than somebody called God in the clouds created our world in seven days, buuuut, if you refuse to believe that, good on you.
You’re probably happier.
Some of us search for happiness, some of us for truth, and that’s why we will always clash.

"That's what I think anyway".

[Matrim Cuathon]

i kinda agree with hyper.

[Moira]

Good point Hyper ....
I don't understand some people's need to prove the existance or non-existance of God. It's good to talk about it and exchange opinions but in most cases it goes further than that.
In the end it all comes down to what seems plausible to each of us.

[Wintermute]

Good point Hyper ....
I don't understand some people's need to prove the existance or non-existance of God. It's good to talk about it and exchange opinions but in most cases it goes further than that.
In the end it all comes down to what seems plausible to each of us.

Hi Moira,

The problem is that when one group becomes certain that they, exclusively, know what's going on in the universe they become fanatics and zealots, effecting all the rest of us. The world trade center attacks or the banning of stem cell research are two examples that come immediately to mind.

It's fine to believe as you may, but don't attempt to shovel your certainty down the throats of us who are less certain.

[billyjack]

Because all matter is created and cannot exist on its own - so therefore, there must be a "first cause" (to paraphrase Aristotle - the "Unmoved Mover") to bring all matter into existence. That's why.



If you had read the Bible (the book you're attempting to criticize) it would tell you that God has always existed - He was not created; He is the only uncreated Being in the universe. The idea that we just "poofed" into existence would be called "evolution" and it's equally as absurd as you make God out to be.


Maybe God "covers most questions" because He is the only answer capable of covering most of our questions. Ever consider that? No - He can't be proven - like much of what you call "reality" cannot be "proven." Here's a neat trick: He can't be disproven either - because to claim that God doesn't exist would require you to have exhaustive knowledge of all that does exist - are you claiming that?

Blood's been spilt by believers and non alike. Fanatical killing isn't an exclusive club only for the religious.

.

agreed that nothing can exist on its own. there are no "in and of themselves." yet you say god can do just this? a contradiction...
there needn't be an all poweful god to make existence happen. all "nothing can existest on its own" means is that everything is relative to everything else. the trees need the soil, the soil needs water, water needs the sun to float around in clouds, ect...

so god is the only thing that has always been. and evolution is a "poofing" into existence. robert pirsig (author zen and art of motorcycle maintenance) calls god evolution (quality). so really god is what has always been changing (bc change is the elemental principle of evolution). and change is the way of the universe (all things change). so god is the universe. i can live with that, its sounds natural without the aid of superstition or ideas.

most of reality cannot be proven or disproven and so goes with god? a tree is seen. it exist. thunder heard, it exist. pine smelt, dito. ect... these are realities and by an observer exeriencing them, their existence is affirmed. disprovability is a crutch to fall back on when reason brings us to an ad infinitum. when an ad infinitum is found, its neccessary to go back and start over.

bloods been spilt over religious and non-religious matters. true. but the difference between them lies in their aim. the aim of non-religious war is land or something in reality. the aim of religious wars is "death to infadels", and an infidel is someone without faith. ie...religious wars cause death in the name of non-reality, in the name of idols or ideas. in the former, a death can be justified in that without the land, the soldier might have died anyways. the latter however is a bit slippier.

[Moira]

Hi Moira,

The problem is that when one group becomes certain that they, exclusively, know what's going on in the universe they become fanatics and zealots, effecting all the rest of us. The world trade center attacks or the banning of stem cell research are two examples that come immediately to mind.

It's fine to believe as you may, but don't attempt to shovel your certainty down the throats of us who are less certain.

I'm not trying to shovel anythink down anyone's throat. You missunderstood me. It's exactly the opposite of what i was trying to do ....

[Matrim Cuathon]

he was kinda agreeing with you.

[Wintermute]

I'm not trying to shovel anythink down anyone's throat. You missunderstood me. It's exactly the opposite of what i was trying to do ....

Oh yeah Moira, my apologies! My response was poorly worded and my only exchuse is that I was still on my first coffee. I'm right there with ya! Sorry about that.

[aprildutcher]

I think theres something up there........Now if its God or Zeus, or the goddess, or any others, I dont know. Who knows, maybe they all exist when a person beleives in them. Its really up to the person if they exist.

[Redzeppelin]

How do you know that no person has ever changed the Bible?
It never ceases to amaze me how passionate people are about this subject.

I'm equally amazed by the number of people who dismiss the validity of the Bible who have nothing to back up this opinion beyond hearsay or "I just think it's so."


In regard to the Bible, although it provided sufficient answers... Back in the day; I think it's safe to say that now it has been proved completely wrong.

"Back in the day" eh? You mean the idea of not stealing, not lying, not sleeping with your neighbors wife, not murdering, showing compassion to those around us, tending to the weak, the poor, the disenfranchised, giving to charity, showing love to our enemies, and on and on and on is no longer relevant? Really?

Tell me, how does one "prove" the Bible "wrong"?


I'll never understand why people get so heated over the existence of God; there are people who believe it and people who don't.

We don't get "heated" about God's existence (although we are generally happy about it and excited in what He's promised us).


In between the two extremes are most of the people I know, willing to admit that the character of Jesus in the Bible portrays a decent role model, and the book itself contains morals that wouldn't hurt to be understood. The book was simply written in the way that it was, explaining creation the way it does, to better communicate the true morals, lessons and answers for people of that time, being... not as educated. We aren't meant to take every word in it seriously, that includes the "creation" story, but rather to listen to the moral of the stories, and so live our lives righteously, or whatever.

Nice idea but totally at odds with what the Bible claims. It's "morality" (for lack of a better word) is based on the idea that the figure behind the morality is God Himself - without that truth in place, the morality of the Bible has no real authority and no real meaning except when it coincides with what we think is meaningful. As a book, it claims Divine Authority - and any book that does so that is not divinely inspired becomes blasphemous and its integrity disappears.


It was intended at the time, of course, to control the masses, but it is impossible to deny that there is some truth to religion.

"Control the masses"? What? Christianity wasn't out to control anybody. What are you talking about?


The simple answer to the meaning of life is that there is no meaning, anyone that’s studied science can tell you that there are more conceivable suggestions than somebody called God in the clouds created our world in seven days, buuuut, if you refuse to believe that, good on you.

"No meaning to life"? Then why not kill ourselves now and get it over with? You're kidding, right? And no, as far as I'm concerned, science's explanations as to how we got here involve the same faith (in astronomical numbers and random chance) that a belief in God does. No difference - except that the scientific one seems more reasonable because we made it up (kind of like the child when told that the earth rotates away from the sun says "Nah - it goes into the ocean - that's what it looks like to me."


You’re probably happier.

If I believe in evolution? Didn't you (who appears by your post to not believe in God) just say life is meaningless? How can I be happier if life is meaningless? Huh?


Some of us search for happiness, some of us for truth, and that’s why we will always clash.

"That's what I think anyway".

So happiness and truth are opposites and are never connected? Really? Why would you say that?

[hyperborean]

Tell me, how does one "prove" the Bible "wrong"?

Tell me how one proves the Bible "right"?


"Control the masses"? What? Christianity wasn't out to control anybody. What are you talking about?

You know exactly what that means. Don't spin this. Constantine...cough, cough. Governments have been altering biblical texts since.

[Redzeppelin]

Tell me how one proves the Bible "right"?

You see how what it says corresponds to reality. And, clever as this answer is, it merely dodges my question (which was to another poster).



You know exactly what that means. Don't spin this. Constantine...cough, cough. Governments have been altering biblical texts since.

I'm sorry - you and I went round and round on this a while ago to the same effect. That some governments co-opted the Bible does not change the fact that it wasn't written with that intention in mind, which is what hyperinsomnia was charging - so you're responding with an inaccurate argument.

[Robert Jordan]

I believe God to be everything and all. God is within all of us and this world that He or It created. I don't htink that anyone will go to Hell as I believe that God is merciful and will show mercy. If we go by the Bible He shows mercy and gives the sinners salvation. This is all my opinion and I think it becomes a problem when people tryy or feel it's their duty to convert others ans save them. If you believe in God then you know He has a purpose for everything, whether you are an athiest or agnostic, Buddhist or Hindu, Satanist or Christian, Pagan or Taoist. There is a reason. At least in my opinion. People need to focus on their own path instead of trying to force things upon others. Science and reason can't answer for faith, just as faith can't answer for reason. Deal with it. Rock n roll.

[hyperinsomnia]

Wow, lots to respond to.

"Back in the day" eh? You mean the idea of not stealing, not lying, not sleeping with your neighbors wife, not murdering, showing compassion to those around us, tending to the weak, the poor, the disenfranchised, giving to charity, showing love to our enemies, and on and on and on is no longer relevant? Really?
Didn't I say that these were the only relevant things in the Bible?!

.
Tell me, how does one "prove" the Bible "wrong"?
Are you seriously telling me you belive that it rained for 40 days ? That two of every animal was able to survive on a big boat? That's what I'm reffering to when I say it's been proved wrong.




"We don't get "heated" about God's existence (although we are generally happy about it and excited in what He's promised us).
What I meant was that people get heated about other people's beliefs, aren't we all supposed to be able to have our own beliefs, without being told we are wrong?



Nice idea but totally at odds with what the Bible claims. It's "morality" (for lack of a better word) is based on the idea that the figure behind the morality is God Himself - without that truth in place, the morality of the Bible has no real authority and no real meaning except when it coincides with what we think is meaningful. As a book, it claims Divine Authority - and any book that does so that is not divinely inspired becomes blasphemous and its integrity disappears.
Fine, it's blasphemous then. We should totally disregard any good thing it says simply because it wasn't written by God himself!!
*Insert sarcasm*




"Control the masses"? What? Christianity wasn't out to control anybody. What are you talking about?
I shouldn't have brought this point up, I apologise, indeed, the Bible was written before it was used as a tool to control people.




"No meaning to life"? Then why not kill ourselves now and get it over with? You're kidding, right? ... If I believe in evolution? Didn't you (who appears by your post to not believe in God) just say life is meaningless? How can I be happier if life is meaningless? Huh?
What I said was that if you believe in God, and a meaning to life, that you are probably happier. This doesn't make the Bible true, but like I said, we're not all after the truth. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every scientific thing is the truth, but it certainly searches for it.

My post was focused on the Bible, the reason being that I am undecided on God, If I were to believe, it would be in a universal power more than a supreme being. This is just my oppinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way.

As far as I can see it, religion is about finding spirituality within yourself, and not so much about conforming to a set of ideas written in a book by God himself.




So happiness and truth are opposites and are never connected? Really? Why would you say that?
They aren't opposites, they're not the same either.
Religion is intened to give life meaning and something to turn to in the face of dispair... In a way providing happiness, Science, on the other hand, looks for new ideas and explinations, continually searching for the truth.

[Robert Jordan]

Wow, lots to respond to.

Didn't I say that these were the only relevant things in the Bible?!

.
Are you seriously telling me you belive that it rained for 40 days ? That two of every animal was able to survive on a big boat? That's what I'm reffering to when I say it's been proved wrong.




What I meant was that people get heated about other people's beliefs, aren't we all supposed to be able to have our own beliefs, without being told we are wrong?



Fine, it's blasphemous then. We should totally disregard any good thing it says simply because it wasn't written by God himself!!
*Insert sarcasm*



I shouldn't have brought this point up, I apologise, indeed, the Bible was written before it was used as a tool to control people.



What I said was that if you believe in God, and a meaning to life, that you are probably happier. This doesn't make the Bible true, but like I said, we're not all after the truth. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every scientific thing is the truth, but it certainly searches for it.

My post was focused on the Bible, the reason being that I am undecided on God, If I were to believe, it would be in a universal power more than a supreme being. This is just my oppinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way.

As far as I can see it, religion is about finding spirituality within yourself, and not so much about conforming to a set of ideas written in a book by God himself.



They aren't opposites, they're not the same either.
Religion is intened to give life meaning and something to turn to in the face of dispair... In a way providing happiness, Science, on the other hand, looks for new ideas and explinations, continually searching for the truth.

I agree, but one could also ask what is truth? Some say science is truth or leads to truth through reason. Others would say that faith is bigger than reason and cannot be explained trhough science. Does this make them both invalid? Yes and no. It's all the individual perspective. Progressive thought has replaced the need for a God because it said that through reason we could answer all our physical needs. But where does that leave the metaphysical needs? Thrown away and abandoned for convenience and order that is not permanent. Faith is too powerful for reason to answer for. Faith is not convenient. It is a struggle with something you can't put a theory on. I have faith in God. Some don't. Let's all at least agree uopn that and live together. We can't work out our differences but at least we can agree that in this life, NO one is really right or wrong. Maybe that's blasphemy for a believer to say, but hey, I say there is a purpose for everything. We can all agree to disagree.

[watkinsguy]

I agree, but one could also ask what is truth? Some say science is truth or leads to truth through reason. Others would say that faith is bigger than reason and cannot be explained through science. Does this make them both invalid? Yes and no. It's all the individual perspective. Progressive thought has replaced the need for a God because it said that through reason we could answer all our physical needs. But where does that leave the metaphysical needs? Thrown away and abandoned for convenience and order that is not permanent. Faith is too powerful for reason to answer for. Faith is not convenient. It is a struggle with something you can't put a theory on. I have faith in God. Some don't. Let's all at least agree uopn that and live together. We can't work out our differences but at least we can agree that in this life, NO one is really right or wrong. Maybe that's blasphemy for a believer to say, but hey, I say there is a purpose for everything. We can all agree to disagree.

this is an increasingly popular idealogy in today's society. It's called pluralsim, and it contracdicts itself on virtually every level. the basis of pluralism is that there are no absolute truths (even though that is an absolute truth ;)). In order to be right, someone must be wrong somewhere somehow. not everyone is always going to be right. Science and religion go hand in hand, science can't exist without some faith, and faith without science. However when one takes one side to the extreme, it renders that side to be completly illogical. Think about it: if scientists one day said they knew everything there is too know about the universe, people (hopefully) would not believe them because one can never know all there is in the universe. This is why faith is needed in science. Not a very solid arguement, but I am tired right now so don't blast it. Now to sit back and watch the show :)

[.shuu.]

If you would like to research about figuring out the answer to god, read a book that supports his/her/it's existance, and then read one that doesn't. I don't have a reference book for the former, but an okay book is by Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion. It's a little athiest-preachy, but his systematic dismantling of previous "proofs" of god are interesting. He does do a good job of showing how most of these proofs are just clever tricks of language. Interesting in itself since language is man-made and therefor able to fault, shown throw their arguments. Happy eatings.

[Redzeppelin]

Didn't I say that these were the only relevant things in the Bible?!

?


Are you seriously telling me you belive that it rained for 40 days ? That two of every animal was able to survive on a big boat? That's what I'm reffering to when I say it's been proved wrong.

Asking me if I believe something you don't doesn't answer my question. Just because you don't believe something could happen means that it's been "proven wrong" or anything else for that matter. Your incredulity makes sense if you are working off the assumption that God doesn't exist; however, if He does, then - compared to the creation of the world - an extended rainstorm is easily accomplished.



What I meant was that people get heated about other people's beliefs, aren't we all supposed to be able to have our own beliefs, without being told we are wrong?

You may have whatever belief you wish. As far as the "wrong" part, well, no. Example: if you believe that it's your right to steal my car, I will be forced to tell you that your belief is incorrect. As well, because I believe that God is real, I believe His assessment of where the world will eventually end up (and all the people on it) is correct: as such, since God would like everybody with Him in heaven, it behooves those of us who believe in Him to help others understand the error in their thinking - because we don't want anybody "lost" either.



Fine, it's blasphemous then. We should totally disregard any good thing it says simply because it wasn't written by God himself!!
*Insert sarcasm*

Not sure how sarcasm is warranted here. You overstate my point: if the Bible asserted that it was nothing more than a book of moral teachings, then it's fine; but it also asserts that these teachings come from a transecendant and all-powerful God; as such, the power of its morality is primarily invested in the identity of the law giver - otherwise, it's teachings have no more authority than any other version of morality.



I shouldn't have brought this point up, I apologise, indeed, the Bible was written before it was used as a tool to control people.

Why don't you give me a trenchant example of how the Bible is used to "control" anybody?



My post was focused on the Bible, the reason being that I am undecided on God, If I were to believe, it would be in a universal power more than a supreme being. This is just my oppinion and I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same way.

A "universal power" cannot dictate morality because morality requires the ability to discriminate between two choices; a "power" can do no such thing - a "power" cannot have a moral will.


As far as I can see it, religion is about finding spirituality within yourself, and not so much about conforming to a set of ideas written in a book by God himself.

You speak as if "conforming" to the Bible's ideas of morality is some sort of oppressive thing. You're free to be a "nonconformist" if you wish - but again, doing so carries more weight if you understand that "conforming" to the Bible's ideas of right/wrong are not to please God - they are to help you avoid the emotional/spiritual/physiological damage that living outside of His Will inevitably results in. Good/Evil are not random things God decided on - they are reflections of that which is and is not His character.

As far as "finding spirituality within [one]self," well - there is no spirituality to find as such; what you will find inside is God (because He has put "eternity in our hearts" Ecclesiastes) - because each of us is created by Him. We can create our own "spirituality," but without God at the center, it will generally be some sort of self-serving belief system that requires little of us by way of sacrifice or growth.



They aren't opposites, they're not the same either.
Religion is intened to give life meaning and something to turn to in the face of dispair... In a way providing happiness, Science, on the other hand, looks for new ideas and explinations, continually searching for the truth.

Both religion and science are seeking truth - but in different ways and for different reasons.

[hyperborean]

So zeppelin, do you believe that everything in the bible actually happened? Is there anything in there you don't take literally but instead metaphorically?

[Redzeppelin]

So zeppelin, do you believe that everything in the bible actually happened? Is there anything in there you don't take literally but instead metaphorically?

I think it a mistake to take every single thing the Bible says either literally or figuratively; that said, I think there are general principles that should guide the interpreter in deciding which is which. For example: when Jesus said it is better to pluck out one's eye rather than have it cause you to sin, he wasn't advocating self-mutilation. That, I believe, is a figurative way of saying that it is better to lose something you value highly rather than have it be a stumbling block to cause you to lose your soul - your soul is worth more than your eye. But, if you work off of the presupposition that God is real, then nothing in the Bible becomes unbelievable - including creation, Noah's ark, the resurrection of Lazarus, et al. What I disagree with is having secular-humanists relegate anything they think impossible to the realm of figurative/metaphoric language - that decision is driven by the belief that God doesn't exist.

[billyjack]

your soul is worth more than your eye. .

do you see how life negating this suggestion that was just put forth is? that's what i mean when i agree with nietzche in saying that christians lack the will to life. life is in reality. souls and things as such are in books, mythologies, idealities. by choosing ideality over reality you are choosing a way of life that isnt in accordance with the principles of life at all. and going against principles of life is bascially saying, " ok where are you death, i'm waiting." that is why the suggestion you put forth was life negating.

[Redzeppelin]

do you see how life negating this suggestion that was just put forth is? that's what i mean when i agree with nietzche in saying that christians lack the will to life. life is in reality. souls and things as such are in books, mythologies, idealities. by choosing ideality over reality you are choosing a way of life that isnt in accordance with the principles of life at all. and going against principles of life is bascially saying, " ok where are you death, i'm waiting." that is why the suggestion you put forth was life negating.

You are flat out wrong due to the simple fact that God IS reality; God IS life; by choosing ourselves as the "measure" of reality, we choose small, confining little rooms full of our fears, jealousies, hatreds and self-serving wishes. There is nothing in what I said that spoke of "ideality." The Bible speaks to us about the true nature of reality - a reality that those shackled to only what they can observe are restricted from fully understanding.

[billyjack]

You are flat out wrong due to the simple fact that God IS reality; God IS life; by choosing ourselves as the "measure" of reality, we choose small, confining little rooms full of our fears, jealousies, hatreds and self-serving wishes. There is nothing in what I said that spoke of "ideality." The Bible speaks to us about the true nature of reality - a reality that those shackled to only what they can observe are restricted from fully understanding.

i'm suprised you still bring all that "fears and selfishness" to the table with me. all these things are completely neccessary in order for life to continue and evolve like it has on this planet. the things you brought forth are the yin to the yang of good, virtous, humble.

i've seen nothing you've said that isn't ideality. quoting the bible is ideality. referring to good and bad as absolutes is an ideality. the idea of God is an ideality. anything not immediately sensed needs to be abstracted through thought or feeling in order to be experienced. abstracted means taken away from. . . from what? from reality.

if we had no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, tactitioning: would we have any understanding at all? NO. you need senses to understand anything. so what's with the hostility toward the observed world.

[Redzeppelin]

i'm suprised you still bring all that "fears and selfishness" to the table with me. all these things are completely neccessary in order for life to continue and evolve like it has on this planet. the things you brought forth are the yin to the yang of good, virtous, humble.

Good does not need bad to exist in order for us to understand/appreciate good. There are some forms of good that exist now because of bad, but good in-and-of-itself can exist without bad balanced against it.


i've seen nothing you've said that isn't ideality. quoting the bible is ideality. referring to good and bad as absolutes is an ideality. the idea of God is an ideality. anything not immediately sensed needs to be abstracted through thought or feeling in order to be experienced. abstracted means taken away from. . . from what? from reality.

You're wrong. Calling absolutes "ideality" reveals your humanist/ethical relativistic platform - absolutes are only "ideal" to those who have rejected them for subjective/relative values.


if we had no seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, tactitioning: would we have any understanding at all? NO. you need senses to understand anything. so what's with the hostility toward the observed world.

There's no hostility towards the observable world- it just can't be the measure of all reality.

[billyjack]

Good does not need bad to exist in order for us to understand/appreciate good. There are some forms of good that exist now because of bad, but good in-and-of-itself can exist without bad balanced against it.



You're wrong. Calling absolutes "ideality" reveals your humanist/ethical relativistic platform - absolutes are only "ideal" to those who have rejected them for subjective/relative values.



There's no hostility towards the observable world- it just can't be the measure of all reality.


1) what are you basing "we don't need the bad in order to know good" on. you can only speculate this point because you've never experienced a world with only your "good" and no "bad." living life in accordance with speculation is ideality. why not accept and love the "bad" as much as the "good." saying you can have one without the other is like saying you would know light without dark. we think and know by dueling contraries. "we know this is this because its not that." what your are saying sounds to me like "the form of the good" an in-and-of-itself, some Platonic droppings.

2) humanist perspective? i can see calling someone ethnocentric because they judge in relation to their own ethnicity or culture. or calling a scientist anthropocentric because he judges everything in relation to humans. but how can i experience and interpret from any other perspective than that of a human. even if i empathize with a non-human to make a decision, i am still using a humanist perspective to empathize. man is the measure of the universe (that is why all of us are one, all of us are god). why, because we are the only beings on earth that can measure. who else would be the measure of existence? no other beings seem to care to measure existence. . . just us.

i dont buy your whole seperation of subject and object. the seperation might exist in words but not in reality.

3) if the observable world is only the tip of the iceburg, as you've said, of reality, then how do we measure the rest of reality when being measurable is by definition being observable? dualism is crap. it doesnt work. no connection between dualities was ever devised. duality is made-up, conjured, second cousin to harvey the rabbit.

[JGL57]

...being measurable is by definition being observable? dualism is crap. it doesnt work. no connection between dualities was ever devised. duality is made-up, conjured, second cousin to harvey the rabbit.

Exactly - especially the imagined duality of invisible person creator and created artifact (the universe).

It seems that most people on this thread are experts in western monotheism and know nothing else. But if ignorance is bliss, perhaps then they are quite happy, regardless. :D

[tajmajal]

I believe that each and everyone does his own god.
The only thing I know is that fear preserves the order of the things... without the concept of god, many people would just simply be deviant.

[billyjack]

Exactly - especially the imagined duality of invisible person creator and created artifact (the universe).

It seems that most people on this thread are experts in western monotheism and know nothing else. But if ignorance is bliss, perhaps then they are quite happy, regardless. :D

cypher thought ignorance was bliss too. --ignorance: to ignore-- western monotheism ignores reality. but why? what is so bad about reality that ignoring it brings bliss: its the fact that "bad" exist and always will as long as things exist and language describes that which exist. bad scares theistic people. but bad can't be swept under the rug of reality with the bible broom. so reality must therefore be ignored in favor of ideality. so happiness for theism is rooted in fear. fear of the unkown, the bad, the evil, the left hand of god.


without the concept of god, many people would just simply be deviant.

concept. . . idea. . .metaphor for reality. . . metaphors represent, they arent reality itself. . . we mistake concepts for reality. . . there in lies the root of deviance.

[watkinsguy]

you guys need to stop knocking everyone's religion as last time i checked, there are blatantl obvious rules for this forum that state that you are not allowed to bash other people's religion.

[Redzeppelin]

cypher thought ignorance was bliss too. --ignorance: to ignore-- western monotheism ignores reality. but why? what is so bad about reality that ignoring it brings bliss: its the fact that "bad" exist and always will as long as things exist and language describes that which exist. bad scares theistic people. but bad can't be swept under the rug of reality with the bible broom. so reality must therefore be ignored in favor of ideality. so happiness for theism is rooted in fear. fear of the unkown, the bad, the evil, the left hand of god.


Christianity does not embrace "ignorance"; what it understands are the limits of human understanding and that God's existence goes far beyond our limited ability to understand a Being of His nature.

"Bad" won't always exist. Revelation tells us that it will - at some point - cease to exist. That's good news.

Why don't you explain how monotheism "ignores reality" because that statement makes zero sense to me - so your understanding of reality must be vastly different from mine. Care to enlighten me a bit, please?

[billyjack]

Christianity does not embrace "ignorance"; what it understands are the limits of human understanding and that God's existence goes far beyond our limited ability to understand a Being of His nature.

"Bad" won't always exist. Revelation tells us that it will - at some point - cease to exist. That's good news.

Why don't you explain how monotheism "ignores reality" because that statement makes zero sense to me - so your understanding of reality must be vastly different from mine. Care to enlighten me a bit, please?

1) the limits of human understanding can be blamed on 2 things: language being mistaken for reality and theistic ideals causing good people to stop searching the unkown for answers and instead searching a book for answers.

2) wishing "bad and evil " to cease its existence is like wishing there wasn't bad weather. without the bad the good would not exist. my evidence for this claim is based in experience and reality. the evidence against this knowledge is based on a book. you say that no more bad would be good news. you are wishing for the end of days man. why? what's so bad about this life that another must be wished for?

3) the way we see things is vastly different. my reality acknowledges and appreciates the bad with the good. my reality is in accordance with the way of things because nothing is ignored, nothing is wished to not exist. everything is neccessary. all the bads are fantastic, so are the goods. my reality needs no book to affirm it, it affirms itself. my reality needs no all powerful god as a father figure watching over everything, it watches over itself.

ignoring reality is going against life. life is reality. christian morals have a tendency to go against life. "contempt against the body is seen as salvation of the soul." (N). the christian morality is "the will to an end. whoever is at odds with me about that is to my mind infected." (N) by going against life christianity goes against morality in favor of an ideal--heaven. thus, reality is ignored.

[hyperborean]

Revelation tells us that it will - at some point - cease to exist. That's good news.

Revelation also tells us that there will be an apocalypse. A book that scared people into following Christianity, is not one many of us would actually take seriously.

[Redzeppelin]

1) the limits of human understanding can be blamed on 2 things: language being mistaken for reality and theistic ideals causing good people to stop searching the unkown for answers and instead searching a book for answers.

Language is not reality, but it attempts to represent reality as best it can. If it cannot do that, it has no true function.


2) wishing "bad and evil " to cease its existence is like wishing there wasn't bad weather. without the bad the good would not exist. my evidence for this claim is based in experience and reality. the evidence against this knowledge is based on a book.

Bad weather and torture, rape, genocide, murder and all manner of human suffering are not equivalent. Good can exist fine without evil - don't tell me you had to taste sour for sweet to be good. Don't tell me you needed to be slapped for a kiss to feel good. Bad may heighten our appreciation of good, but it is not required for good to exist or be appreciated.


3) the way we see things is vastly different. my reality acknowledges and appreciates the bad with the good. my reality is in accordance with the way of things because nothing is ignored, nothing is wished to not exist. everything is neccessary. all the bads are fantastic, so are the goods. my reality needs no book to affirm it, it affirms itself. my reality needs no all powerful god as a father figure watching over everything, it watches over itself.

Right - which means your reality is pretty much self-referential - so if your deluded or wrong, you won't know because nothing outside of you stands as a reference point.


ignoring reality is going against life. life is reality. christian morals have a tendency to go against life. "contempt against the body is seen as salvation of the soul." (N). the christian morality is "the will to an end. whoever is at odds with me about that is to my mind infected." (N) by going against life christianity goes against morality in favor of an ideal--heaven. thus, reality is ignored.

You keep repeating this and I wish you'd explain yourself - how does Christian morality go against life? Christianity affirms life and its value through its moral code. Besides, since God IS ultimate reality, your claim becomes immensely false.

[Redzeppelin]

Revelation also tells us that there will be an apocalypse. A book that scared people into following Christianity, is not one many of us would actually take seriously.

It's not manipulation to tell of a terrifying event if the event WILL happen. That makes Revelation a warning the equivalent of an air raid siren. You're free to ignore it.

[JackShea]

Is there a God or a Higher Spirit? I know there are many things more powerful than I am. I believe immediately after my last breath I shall know the big secret as many who have passed before me. I will do my best to let everyone here know what I have discovered.

[billyjack]

Language is not reality, but it attempts to represent reality as best it can. If it cannot do that, it has no true function.



Bad weather and torture, rape, genocide, murder and all manner of human suffering are not equivalent. Good can exist fine without evil - don't tell me you had to taste sour for sweet to be good. Don't tell me you needed to be slapped for a kiss to feel good. Bad may heighten our appreciation of good, but it is not required for good to exist or be appreciated.



Right - which means your reality is pretty much self-referential - so if your deluded or wrong, you won't know because nothing outside of you stands as a reference point.



You keep repeating this and I wish you'd explain yourself - how does Christian morality go against life? Christianity affirms life and its value through its moral code. Besides, since God IS ultimate reality, your claim becomes immensely false.

1) agreed. language helps and hurts us. but you didnt say anything about unknowns being searched for in a book rather than reality.

2)torture, rape, genecide, murder: all bad things, agreed. but all happen and all are therefore neccessary because that which happened neccessitates now. without those things happening, right now would not be. and anyways, sometimes torture is neccessary, same with murder. if the torture or murder will save 2 people, that's better than hurting 1 from some standpoints. . . maybe not mine, but the utilitarians might agree.

3)there we go, that is what i mean, well said. nothing stands outside of me. i'm everything, so are you, so is everybody, everything. there is no subjectivity and objectivity. there is just "it". there's no senser behind the sensed or thinker behind the thought. there is just sensing and thinking. the reference to a subject or doer behind these happenings is an abstaction. immediate experiencing is without these man made seperations of subject and object, divine and natural. immediate experience without abstractions is reality. in reality everything is one. scientific findings are pointing to this oneness. i'm not a big Bill Bryson guy, but i read his "brief history of everything" because i was tripping with spider monkees on a small island and didnt have anything else to read. he interviewed countless scientists of today and kept on coming to the conclusion that all is one. sure its a book, but a book based on scientific, realistic evidence.

4) the christian moral code is against life because it commits the naturalistic fallacy--it mistakes the ought for the is. hegel and marx commited this falliciousness as well in their writing. look what it lead to: mass genecides in both instances. the difference is that the christian genecide is a slower and more pain-staking remorse filled one. christianity makes life not life at all. instincts are called bad. free will is created to confuse and cause mistrust of the instincts. the little things are seen as pointless in the brood spectrum of things when its the little things that make life worth living. people are left so confused that a god would give them all these natural drives and tell them to repress them that they start preffering the ideal instead of reality, since reality doesnt make sense seen through the thick glasses of theism.

[Redzeppelin]

1) agreed. language helps and hurts us. but you didnt say anything about unknowns being searched for in a book rather than reality.

You've got your books, I've got mine.


2)torture, rape, genecide, murder: all bad things, agreed. but all happen and all are therefore neccessary because that which happened neccessitates now. without those things happening, right now would not be. and anyways, sometimes torture is neccessary, same with murder. if the torture or murder will save 2 people, that's better than hurting 1 from some standpoints. . . maybe not mine, but the utilitarians might agree.

That evil can be made use of does not imply that its existence is necessary.

3)
there we go, that is what i mean, well said. nothing stands outside of me. i'm everything, so are you, so is everybody, everything. there is no subjectivity and objectivity. there is just "it". there's no senser behind the sensed or thinker behind the thought. there is just sensing and thinking. the reference to a subject or doer behind these happenings is an abstaction. immediate experiencing is without these man made seperations of subject and object, divine and natural. immediate experience without abstractions is reality. in reality everything is one. scientific findings are pointing to this oneness. i'm not a big Bill Bryson guy, but i read his "brief history of everything" because i was tripping with spider monkees on a small island and didnt have anything else to read. he interviewed countless scientists of today and kept on coming to the conclusion that all is one. sure its a book, but a book based on scientific, realistic evidence.

"Realistic" to you. This is the point where you and I part ways - the "all is one" supposition is one I do not accept. It sounds like some neat pantheistic philosophy, but such beliefs require the acceptance of evil as necessary; it isn't.


4) the christian moral code is against life because it commits the naturalistic fallacy--it mistakes the ought for the is. hegel and marx commited this falliciousness as well in their writing. look what it lead to: mass genecides in both instances. the difference is that the christian genecide is a slower and more pain-staking remorse filled one. christianity makes life not life at all. instincts are called bad. free will is created to confuse and cause mistrust of the instincts. the little things are seen as pointless in the brood spectrum of things when its the little things that make life worth living. people are left so confused that a god would give them all these natural drives and tell them to repress them that they start preffering the ideal instead of reality, since reality doesnt make sense seen through the thick glasses of theism.

Wrong wrong wrong. Morality gives us ought because without it, we will make the mistake that you're making that what is is right. That is a dangerous way to process reality, because many things exist that ought not and serve no positive purpose in-and-of-themselves. As well, your conception of morality is pretty medieval in nature; instincts aren't called "bad" - but they must be evaluated rather than blindly indulged. What may come "naturally" may not necessarily be beneficial -to me or to my community. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss "ought" - it's what allows us to be even somewhat civil to each other.

[billyjack]

You've got your books, I've got mine.



That evil can be made use of does not imply that its existence is necessary.

3)

"Realistic" to you. This is the point where you and I part ways - the "all is one" supposition is one I do not accept. It sounds like some neat pantheistic philosophy, but such beliefs require the acceptance of evil as necessary; it isn't.



Wrong wrong wrong. Morality gives us ought because without it, we will make the mistake that you're making that what is is right. That is a dangerous way to process reality, because many things exist that ought not and serve no positive purpose in-and-of-themselves. As well, your conception of morality is pretty medieval in nature; instincts aren't called "bad" - but they must be evaluated rather than blindly indulged. What may come "naturally" may not necessarily be beneficial -to me or to my community. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss "ought" - it's what allows us to be even somewhat civil to each other.

1) difference being, rather than using a book, i use reality for a reference point.

2) show me a world without what you call evil. you'd have to show me in heaven because in reality that world does not and will not exist. basically your disagreeing with nature here, disagreeing with what "God" created. i didnt just create this idea. its observable, experienced, real. try cutting off the south end of a magnet. it wont work anymore. the essence of a magnet is both north and south. same with reality, north needs south, good needs bad, ect...

3) pantheism--the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations. this doesnt relate to what i said. i see nothing as beyond the universe. there is just the universe. and everything is the expression of the whole universe as every wave is an expression of the ocean. so all is one--its known in science as the field theory. when trying to describe and organism in detail, its neccessary to also describe its surroundings. soon the line between what is the organism and what surrounds it become blurry to the point of arbitrariness.

4) clearly we were somewhat civil before the christian moral was created via the bible and torah. how else would man kind have survived 99% of its time here on earth without such moral codes. notice that this 1% of time that this christian moral code has existed coincides with the first time that not only man but the earth itself is in danger of extinction via human behavior that is rooted in the ideal that man is seperate from his environment--i'm talking about our ecological unfriendliness of course. this moral code is doing a fantastic job of bringing about the end of days. . . manifest destiny!

[Redzeppelin]

1) difference being, rather than using a book, i use reality for a reference point.

My response would be this: as a Christian, my view is the opposite: since the Bible is the revelation of God (who is ultimate reality), it does present reality; the observable world around you that ou take for "reality" is actually very prone to deceit and illusion.


2) show me a world without what you call evil. you'd have to show me in heaven because in reality that world does not and will not exist. basically your disagreeing with nature here, disagreeing with what "God" created. i didnt just create this idea. its observable, experienced, real. try cutting off the south end of a magnet. it wont work anymore. the essence of a magnet is both north and south. same with reality, north needs south, good needs bad, ect...

That world doesn't exist - yet. According to the Bible, evil will eventually disappear. I'm disagreeing with what has happened to the nature that God created; He did not create the evil in this world - that evil was brought into it from another source. "Nature" as you call it, is not in its original form.


3) pantheism--the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which the material universe and human beings are only manifestations. this doesnt relate to what i said. i see nothing as beyond the universe. there is just the universe. and everything is the expression of the whole universe as every wave is an expression of the ocean. so all is one--its known in science as the field theory. when trying to describe and organism in detail, its neccessary to also describe its surroundings. soon the line between what is the organism and what surrounds it become blurry to the point of arbitrariness.

So you speak of Naturalism instead. Would you mind explaining what the catalyst to this "blurring" will be? What's going to set it into motion and how will existence be improved by this change?


4) clearly we were somewhat civil before the christian moral was created via the bible and torah. how else would man kind have survived 99% of its time here on earth without such moral codes. notice that this 1% of time that this christian moral code has existed coincides with the first time that not only man but the earth itself is in danger of extinction via human behavior that is rooted in the ideal that man is seperate from his environment--i'm talking about our ecological unfriendliness of course. this moral code is doing a fantastic job of bringing about the end of days. . . manifest destiny!

I didn't imply that Christian morality established morality - but since the Western world was largely defined by Christianity, I was implying that its moral guidance played an important role in the development of the moral law that you now see as nonessential. One wonders how society might have went without it - but there's no real way to know.

[AdoreroDio]

My answer to the original question (Is there a God?):

YES! There is only one God and He is my Heavenly Father who loved us soooo much that He sent His son (Jesus) to die on the cross for our sins and when Jesus went back to heaven this wonderful God sent us the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to guide us so that we would always remember His love.

That is my opinion. I defianitly believe there is a God.

[billyjack]

My response would be this: as a Christian, my view is the opposite: since the Bible is the revelation of God (who is ultimate reality), it does present reality; the observable world around you that ou take for "reality" is actually very prone to deceit and illusion.



That world doesn't exist - yet. According to the Bible, evil will eventually disappear. I'm disagreeing with what has happened to the nature that God created; He did not create the evil in this world - that evil was brought into it from another source. "Nature" as you call it, is not in its original form.



So you speak of Naturalism instead. Would you mind explaining what the catalyst to this "blurring" will be? What's going to set it into motion and how will existence be improved by this change?



I didn't imply that Christian morality established morality - but since the Western world was largely defined by Christianity, I was implying that its moral guidance played an important role in the development of the moral law that you now see as nonessential. One wonders how society might have went without it - but there's no real way to know.

1) reality is prone to illusion because of our percieving it through thoughts (the manipulation of symbols to represent events going on in the real world is what I call thinking--watts), instead of our senses.

2)what's the other source of evil. didnt god create everything? you say "yet" when speakin about this world of pure good with no evil. in the words of hermann hesse, "yet" is a metaphor. your "yet" doesnt exist. let's keep this discussion of god focused on that which does exist.

3) you misunderstood or i wrote it wrong (probably the latter). the blurriness of seperations needs no catalyst and the world needn't change for this blurriness to exist, it already exist in the field theory. the reasoning for this blurriness of subject and object is that when you try to desrcibe you, or me, or an organism you have to also desribe the environment in which the organism lives in, and the the ecosystems surrounding that environment, the sun that feeds that ecosystem, ect..--otherwise your description is incomplete. you can't say, "he's walking." you have to also describe what "he" is walking on. so the seperation of organism and its environment or subject and object exist only from a very incomplete view of existence, a view that ignores connectiveness in favor of seperations and artificial categorizations. seperations and categorizations is the essence of language. so seperations exist not in reality, but in language. yet, the immediate trigger to sensing is thinking, or putting sense into words, so we tend to mistake thinking for reality. there in lies the problem, i reckon--not that i'm bashing thought, but we tend to think to highly of thinking.

4) no need to wonder how society might have worked without the western monotheistic moral influence. just look to the east.

[Redzeppelin]

1) reality is prone to illusion because of our percieving it through thoughts (the manipulation of symbols to represent events going on in the real world is what I call thinking--watts), instead of our senses.

We perceive reality through our senses and our biases ("filters") process what our senses perceive. Watts had his "filters," you've got yours, I've got mine. They're inescapable.



2)what's the other source of evil. didnt god create everything? you say "yet" when speakin about this world of pure good with no evil. in the words of hermann hesse, "yet" is a metaphor. your "yet" doesnt exist. let's keep this discussion of god focused on that which does exist.

The God that does exist has also definitively stated what is to be. That's part of what makes Him God. If the Bible is true (which it must, if God exists), then we've been told clearly what is to come.


3) you misunderstood or i wrote it wrong (probably the latter). the blurriness of seperations needs no catalyst and the world needn't change for this blurriness to exist, it already exist in the field theory. the reasoning for this blurriness of subject and object is that when you try to desrcibe you, or me, or an organism you have to also desribe the environment in which the organism lives in, and the the ecosystems surrounding that environment, the sun that feeds that ecosystem, ect..--otherwise your description is incomplete. you can't say, "he's walking." you have to also describe what "he" is walking on. so the seperation of organism and its environment or subject and object exist only from a very incomplete view of existence, a view that ignores connectiveness in favor of seperations and artificial categorizations. seperations and categorizations is the essence of language. so seperations exist not in reality, but in language. yet, the immediate trigger to sensing is thinking, or putting sense into words, so we tend to mistake thinking for reality. there in lies the problem, i reckon--not that i'm bashing thought, but we tend to think to highly of thinking.

You keep hammering the deceptive nature of thought and language. Much of language is by nature metaphoric and requires a certain degree of interpretation; fine. But it is also possible to get so bogged down in metaphysical quandries about the opacity of language and thought that one forgets that reality still exists and that the majority of people manage to navigate life fine with the flawed tools of language and our "filter"-equipped minds. I get all this "separation" you're talking about, but that is largely philosophic gymnastics; your reflections deal with the intellectual world of the abstracts - as far as I'm concerned, it is your line of thinking that seems to be caught in some metaphysical paralysis due to your thoughts on language. Life exists, differences exist; language is inexact, but through convention we manage to interpret it with a reasonable degree of proficiency.


4) no need to wonder how society might have worked without the western monotheistic moral influence. just look to the east.

What makes the East a model worth emulating? Buddhism's concept of "god" is an abstract void called "Nirvana" - how can such a concept provide a moral framework (since a force is incapable of possessing a moral will)? How is extinguishment of the ego a better option than the cultivation of personal humility? Confucianism's mandate that actualization is (in part) achieved through behaving in accordance with the established norms of culture puts one in the position of accepting moral judgments that may be actually immoral.

[Dante Wodehouse]

i actually find myself to be a bit more existentialist and so lack this hope that i am something more, i am proud to be simply human and i think to imply that we must be more assumes something of an arrogance that i am not willing to draw upon myself, i do however see what you mean about a whisper, but i think that these "whispers you speak of are mearly insightful imaginations from my own mind. whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhy?

It is not arrogance to assume leadership. We are to be leaders of the Earth; in doing that we realize that we are responsible for the Earth. Animals are sinless, as is dirt, rocks, and trees. We are responsible because we can understand what sin is, while the rest of creation cannot. Humans can understand what sin is because they are sinful.

[Dante Wodehouse]

1)try cutting off the south end of a magnet. it wont work anymore. the essence of a magnet is both north and south. same with reality, north needs south, good needs bad, ect...

If you cut off the south end of a magnet, the remainder becomes the south end. I haven't fathomed symbolism in this, but just saying that it is impossible to cut off the south end of a magnet because it is relative to the north end. You try cutting off the south end of a magnet. It will still work.

[billyjack]

If you cut off the south end of a magnet, the remainder becomes the south end. I haven't fathomed symbolism in this, but just saying that it is impossible to cut off the south end of a magnet because it is relative to the north end. You try cutting off the south end of a magnet. It will still work.

fair eneogh, honestly i wasnt sure if what i was saying was correct when i posted, but i posted anyways because the symbolism of the argument would still exist: opposites are neccessary to existence.


Humans can understand what sin is because they are sinful.

i can understand what catholicism is too. that doesn't mean i'm taking communion. understanding a concept does not make someone that concept.

[Scheherazade]

Please avoid from turning this discussion into another 'whose/which religion is superior?' argument and carry on without putting down others' belief systems.

[Dante Wodehouse]

i can understand what catholicism is too. that doesn't mean i'm taking communion. understanding a concept does not make someone that concept.

I realize that, but if you are taking communion, you must (or must think you do) understand catholicism. We sin, therefore we have something of an understanding of sinning. Animals have neither. Understanding a concept does not make someone that concept, but being that concept means you have an understanding of it (or should).

[billyjack]

Understanding a concept does not make someone that concept, but being that concept means you have an understanding of it (or should).

if i understand a concept that doesnt neccessarily make me the concept.
but being the concept, in this case a sinner, means i understand it. (to paraphrase ya)

so being implies understanding. not in the conventional sense of understanding, but if we broaden our idea of understanding this could work.

non the less. sins aren't things. they are ideas. no one is a sin. people have ideas of sins. sins don't have us.

so in this case an idea of sin implies an understanding of sin.

i just wanted to make it clear that people are not sins.

[shadowy girl]

I just want to tell you one last thing, you don't need to ask people if there is a god or not, cuz he created us all, I pray for you, you know why? cuz I want you to know the truth, all of you said tons of things that prove God's existence .. and God exists, that is the truch, weather you believe it or no .. it will always be and stay the truth.

[Istolethisname]

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession." Abraham Lincon

"Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me." - Albert Einstein

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." Benjamin Franklin

"The first clergyman was the first rascal who met the first fool" Voltaire

[Dante Wodehouse]

non the less. sins aren't things. they are ideas. no one is a sin. people have ideas of sins. sins don't have us.

so in this case an idea of sin implies an understanding of sin.

i just wanted to make it clear that people are not sins.

No, but they are sinful.

[JGL57]

“God" is ultimately a word, a sound, a symbol, invented by humans, and like all words it has no certain and absolute definition. Particular words can have many more than one particular definition, and many times context is all important.

Words like god, angel, demon, satan, religion, sin, heaven, hell, miracle, supernatural, paranormal, etc. are a level more abstract than words like chair, tree, bird, cloud, moon, star, giraffe, gerbil, hand, foot, ocean, water, etc, because the former have no physical referent one can point to and say "THAT is a bird, my friend. Unless you are physically blind, case closed."

Western monotheists define "god" in a particular way - an invisible incorporeal person who is all-powerful and all-knowing, who is both transcendent to and immanent within all of our observed reality, who is the original creator of all of reality (whether such took place six thousand or 14 billion years ago). He is our ultimate sovereign and we are his subjects, he the father and we the children - or we are friends, he the Great Friend and we the lesser. I.e., ultimate reality is a RELATIONSHIP of I/Thou - the Thou being an all-powerful invisible person referred to as "god". To say god is a personal god is a redundancy in theistic terms - god is a person by definition.

Special revelation of god's presence and his requirements (commandments) for humans is thought to occur as historical events at certain times, the big ones for christianity being the incarnation and miracle-filled life of god's special son jesus, his subsequent unjust death, resurrection after the magical three day period, ascension into the clouds (heaven), and the final promise to return “shortly”.

Theists do argue amongst themselves over the lesser issues of the reality of Satan the fallen angel thought to entice humans to sin (disobey god), the literalness or lack thereof of hell the abode of eternal pain for "unrepentant sinners", to what degree "holy" scripture is inerrant or not, and many, many other concepts like "once saved always saved" vs. "falling from grace", to what degree certain rituals are required for "salvation" , e.g., baptizing, communion, tongues, other various signs and wonders, etc.

Of course we can contrast the popular and traditional theistic theology, wherein the mythos and symbolism is taken quite literally - what I would call legalistic or rationalistic "organized" theism - and mythological theology or the mystic (extremely personal) religious experience of those like Meister Eckhart, St. John of the Cross, St. Dionysius the pseudo-Aeropagite and in modern times those like Thomas Merton and Michael Novak.

About half of the extant world's population at least SAY they believe in the reality of the monotheistic idea, i.e., they are either christians, muslims, or jews - or generic theists (e.g., science writer Martin Gardner).

Now, over-looking Zoroastrianism, Baha’is, and similar less popular traditions, and over-looking our "primitive" friends the animistic, shamanistic tribesmen in, e.g., the Amazon jungle, the Kalahari Desert, the “Outback” in Australia, etc. - we have the bulk of the rest of humanity following one of the three great pantheistic/monistic Wisdom traditions of the east - Hinduism (Vedanta), Buddhism (Dharma) and Taoism - and their various permutations.

Again, quickly over-looking the literalism of the popular or traditional forms of these traditions, we have a mystic understanding that mirror the mystic theists like Eckhart mentioned above. There is the pantheistic form of the Divine Self of the Hindu (all is god) verses the monistic concept of the NonDual, the One, the Absolute, Nirvana, the Great Tao, etc. which serves as the ultimate concept of reality (sort of the concept beyond all concepts, e.g., beyond personal vs. non-personal) - as being the unmanifest Unity behind all manifest duality or pairs of opposites that constitute human experiential existence (the understanding of the so-called “Higher Third”).

To understand these divisions and levels of understanding we have had two out-standing westerners who spent their lives interpreting and explaining our available choices. Alan Watts, the ex-Anglican priest, was the foremost interpreter of Eastern wisdom - pantheistic/monistic religious traditions - to the west, and Joseph Campbell is the mythologist scholar par excellence who brings it all together into one giant ball of wax - which melts in your mind and not in your arse - as opposed to the various literalistic interpretations of religion.

For those interesting in learning all they can about the subject at hand and who like to read books (ha ha) I would recommend the above authors. Of Watts' forty or so books I favor:

Myth and Ritual in Christianity
Become What You Are
The Meaning of Happiness
The Supreme Identity
The Wisdom of Insecurity
This is It
The Book
The Way of Liberation
The Watercourse Way

For Campbell one could start with "Myths to Live By" - his other thirty or so books are equally good.

Peace.

[Redzeppelin]

Words like god, angel, demon, satan, religion, sin, heaven, hell, miracle, supernatural, paranormal, etc. are a level more abstract than words like chair, tree, bird, cloud, moon, star, giraffe, gerbil, hand, foot, ocean, water, etc, because the former have no physical referent one can point to and say "THAT is a bird, my friend. Unless you are physically blind, case closed."

The referents exist - we just can't perceive them in terms that make naturalists happy (at least not yet). We know these things are real.

[Triskele]

The referents exist - we just can't perceive them in terms that make naturalists happy (at least not yet). We know these things are real.


... thus betraying your hopelessly western perspective, we do not know that these things are real, a christian would believe in the validity of these claims, but a hindu would point out its participation in Maia, the cosmic illusion. this belief that we have self, and that that self has a direct and unique communion with some sort of deity, coupled with the human possession of a soul, is a uniquely pythian perspective. the religions of the east show a tolerance for other belief systems that is admireable, and western culture would be wise to mirror that systemic tolerance
but so that you can clarify others misconceptions of them.

[Redzeppelin]

... thus betraying your hopelessly western perspective, we do not know that these things are real, a christian would believe in the validity of these claims, but a hindu would point out its participation in Maia, the cosmic illusion. this belief that we have self, and that that self has a direct and unique communion with some sort of deity, coupled with the human possession of a soul, is a uniquely pythian perspective. the religions of the east show a tolerance for other belief systems that is admireable, and western culture would be wise to mirror that systemic tolerance

Luckily, I don't find the term "hopelessly Western persepective" as negative - I'm fine with the fact that I view the world through a "western civilization" lens because it's the one I know best and is most appropriate for someone who has lived, been raised in, and acculturated in Western Christian Civilization. I am, however, at a loss as to how I may have communicated an intoleration of other belief systems? Would you mind offering some clarification?

[Logos]

If people are going to ignore each other please do so but don't bring it up in the topic.

[Triskele]

Luckily, I don't find the term "hopelessly Western persepective" as negative - I'm fine with the fact that I view the world through a "western civilization" lens because it's the one I know best and is most appropriate for someone who has lived, been raised in, and acculturated in Western Christian Civilization. I am, however, at a loss as to how I may have communicated an intoleration of other belief systems? Would you mind offering some clarification?

it is not that you have communicated an intolerance, i myself have a fairly western slant to my thought process, i just wanted to open up the conversation to include other worldviews and belief systems. it had started to get a little stale with the atheist vs. the believer, so i decided to attempt to make it a exchange of ideas rather than an arguement, which is what it was starting to turn into. which brings us to another question, is there a higher order to things, because while there may not be a god, there might be a divine cycle such as sanyasin that instead of validating western theology might show eastern philosophies to be right? what do you think.