a language problem!

[Silvia]

Hi!
I have just read the book and, to tell the truth, I find it GREAT!
The only thing I complain about is that I read the Italo Calvino's translation (which is the best one in Italian, by the way) and I'm afraid the style and the language lose something.....
Unfortunaly I'm not able to read the English version, because I'm not so good at English yet and Melville's vocabulary is too a complex one for my present level (actually, there are tecnical words I do not understand even in Italian!).
The reason why I joined this community is that I'm really, really, really keen on books and I'm starting to read them in English, both because I want to get exactly the same meaning the author is giving and because I think it's a good way to improve my skills (I'm 17 and I'm attending a language school in Milan)....
It would be wonderful if you answered me so that we can share opinions.
:D thank you!
silvia

[Jean-Baptiste]

Welcome to the forums, Silvia! :wave: I'm sure you'll fit right in here.

I have not read Moby Dick, but I can say that Melville's style does not appeal to me, based on some of his short stories that I've read. He seems to fall into the trap of the self-educated in making his vocabulary and sentence structure work doubly hard in an attempt to compensate, or prove that formal education is unnecessary. I think this may be where you're finding difficulties, and I'm sure that it's not the fault of the translator. It's been insisted to me that his ideas are profound, tragic, and influential, but all I've ever seen is a garble of trite tripe. Again, I can't speak for Moby Dick, and perhaps he concentrated his best mental exertion on that work. The thing that strikes me most about his writing is his tendency to rearrange the standard English usage in sentence structures. This always throws up a red flag to me that one is trying to make their writing seem more sophisticated than it is. I have heard the argument that his sentences follow the standards of his time, but I find nothing like them in Hawthorne or Poe.

In any case, your English seems very good, for one insisting that it is not--and I see no reason why you should deny your ability to tackle Melville in the original.

Again, welcome! I look forward to your contribution to the forums. :)

[Silvia]

thank you, Giovan-Battista, for answering!
I have been thinking about a suitable reply, some kind of critical comment, but I'm not really the type!
Anyway, I came across your blog and I found out you're a writer!!!
which is such an incredible discovery to me.....
I believe one of the most noble things you can do in life is just to write something good and let it speak for you.
Well, I have to do some research for the school....so I think I'll go....what I promise is that I will enter your blog every now and then and write something down, if you don't mind!

silvia

[Jean-Baptiste]

I don't mind a bit if you comment in my blog, in fact I would be honored, but you can make your own blog here as well. I don't do much with mine. I'm really not much of a writer, though I do like to dabble in short fiction. There are many fine pieces of writing to be found on these forums by other members. (I'd recommend, to name a couple, "Revels Before Lent" by SleepyWitch, and "Shop Talk" by Virgil--they are both excellent, in my opinion.) I agree that it is a noble pursuit, writing. Perhaps I should take it up in earnest.

Giovan-Battista. I like that! Have fun with your research; come back soon and often. :)

[bluevictim]

I have just read the book and, to tell the truth, I find it GREAT!
...
It would be wonderful if you answered me so that we can share opinions.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! If you post some specific questions or topics, I'm sure there are people here who would respond. I really enjoyed Moby Dick, too. I thought it was quite unique; it's remarkable that it manages to keep the reader's interest piqued even though it is enormously long and devoid of things like pitched battles, romantic interests, and shocking plot twists. I think Billy Budd, Sailor would be a good follow-up if you enjoyed Moby Dick. It is much shorter, but also very enjoyable.


I have not read Moby Dick, but I can say that Melville's style does not appeal to me, based on some of his short stories that I've read. He seems to fall into the trap of the self-educated in making his vocabulary and sentence structure work doubly hard in an attempt to compensate, or prove that formal education is unnecessary.
...
The thing that strikes me most about his writing is his tendency to rearrange the standard English usage in sentence structures. This always throws up a red flag to me that one is trying to make their writing seem more sophisticated than it is. I have heard the argument that his sentences follow the standards of his time, but I find nothing like them in Hawthorne or Poe.
I haven't noticed this, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a very sensitive reader, and it's likely that the forced sophistication went over my head. I, personally, didn't find Melville any more unnatural than Nathaniel Hawthorne or Henry James. If you care to expand on this, I'd be very interested to know your thoughts.

[Jean-Baptiste]

At all events, I saw that go he would not. This is an example of what I mean, taken from "Bartleby, the Scrivener". As I said, I cannot speak for _Moby Dick_, but I've been perhaps irreversibly turned off Melville to the point that read more of him I should not like to do. I have an example of another complaint that I have with his sentences, taken from the same piece:
In the morning, one might say, his face was of a fine florid hue, but after twelve o'clock, meridian--his dinner hour--it blazed like a grate full of Christmas coals; and continued blazing--but, as it were, with a gradual wane--till 6 o'clock, P.M. or thereabouts, after which I saw no more of the proprietor of the face, which gaining its meridian with the sun, seemed to set with it, to rise, culminate, and decline the following day, with the like regularity and undiminished glory. His use of commas, and generally endless modifications to sentences, while I often find this sort of writing attractive--such as that created by William Faulkner, who's sentences can cover pages--does not seem to appeal to me coming from Melville's pen. Now, I know that I haven't given him a fair chance, as I said before, but who says fairness is required when judging the dead? :p Actually, to tell you the truth--and this may be a great reason to disregard my opinion of Melville, as it seems that most people, including nearly all of my friends and professors, prefer to do--I may have been searching for a reason to scratch Melville off of my "to read" list, and found a healthy means and justification in his somewhat quirky sentences. Anyway, what do you think of sentences like this? :D Perhaps you could try to persuade me with reason to restore his name to my list. I really would enjoy a good run-down of the brilliance and benefit inherent in this novel. Again, I didn't mean to be too hard on Melville; it was mainly for convenience' sake. :lol: Yes, Henry James can be guilty of this sort of thing at times. He was scratched off the list for a while also--but I was reasoned into restoring him.

[bluevictim]

At all events, I saw that go he would not.
...
In the morning, one might say, his face was of a fine florid hue, but after twelve o'clock, meridian--his dinner hour--it blazed like a grate full of Christmas coals; and continued blazing--but, as it were, with a gradual wane--till 6 o'clock, P.M. or thereabouts, after which I saw no more of the proprietor of the face, which gaining its meridian with the sun, seemed to set with it, to rise, culminate, and decline the following day, with the like regularity and undiminished glory.It's interesting that you picked passages from Bartleby the Scrivener. I thought the overly sophisticated style was perfectly consistent with the character of the narrator. He seems to be very concerned about what others think of him, or at least what he thinks others ought to think of him (quite unlike Bartleby) -- just the kind of man that might begin his story by meditating on his own character and intersperse remarks about his own character throughout his story and use phrases like "the proprietor of the face". On the opposite end of the spectrum, Bartleby's sentences can't be simpler, and Bartleby couldn't be less bothered by what others thought of him. In this particular instance, I thought that the unnatural language was quite useful for conveying what kind of person the narrator is.

That's just my opinion, though, and of course, it just might be a fortunate accident in your choice of examples. Do any other examples come to mind?

I suppose there's no need for you to be persuaded to read more Melville; if you're like me, there are far more books to read than there is time for, anyways. I personally enjoy Melville, so I love the chance to talk about it and hear your thoughts.


I've been perhaps irreversibly turned off Melville to the point that read more of him I should not like to do. Very funny!

[Jean-Baptiste]

I have no way of actually defending my snap judgement of Melville; you're right--it does seem necessary for the sentences to be produced that way based on the narrator's characteristics. I was put off by the entire story, as it seemed that it was not a realistic portrayal of human reactions. Although, I know I can't hold Melville to any strict practice of Realism. It just frustrated me to no end that Bartleby was indeed exempt from any sort of comeupance. Someone would have socked him in the nose in reality! Why the reluctance to call the police, at least? It seems that Melville made no attempt to provide a valid reason for these timid reactions. My literature professor called me a weasel :lol: :lol: :lol: when after he asked what made the story a tragedy I said that it wasn't a tragedy. (I know this is throwing the thread severely off topic, sorry.)


if you're like me, there are far more books to read than there is time for, anyways.

Yes, apparently I am like you. My sentiments exactly. Although, I really am aware that I'm missing out on something great. Piles of readers can't be wrong, right? I have to admit that I am a bit intrigued by some of the things I've heard about Moby Dick. For instance, the idea of incorporating large chunks of nonfiction, expositional material into the body of a novel. That sounds like a novel idea. How do you feel about that aspect of it?

[bluevictim]

It just frustrated me to no end that Bartleby was indeed exempt from any sort of comeupance. Someone would have socked him in the nose in reality! Why the reluctance to call the police, at least? It seems that Melville made no attempt to provide a valid reason for these timid reactions.Haha! I actually found quite a lot in that story that I could identify with, but I definitely know that feeling of frustration when a so-called great piece of literature seems completely pointless.

Anyways, back to Moby Dick.

I have to admit that I am a bit intrigued by some of the things I've heard about Moby Dick. For instance, the idea of incorporating large chunks of nonfiction, expositional material into the body of a novel. That sounds like a novel idea. How do you feel about that aspect of it?A lot of people I know thought those parts were boring. I think the nonfiction passages play an important role in giving the novel its gravity. Without them, it would have been harder to take seriously a story about a captain sending his whole whaling ship to destruction to take revenge on an animal that injured him when he was hunting it (I might point out that this premise was used for comedic effect in that movie The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou). Besides a feeling of realism, they also helped to create an atmosphere of hardship in which the characters of the novel are tested and exposed; in War and Peace, for example, this is achieved by setting the story in a war. Of course, whaling is much less familiar to most people than war, so long descriptions of whaling help to immerse the reader in the story. I never felt like they were tacked on to the main plot (or that the plotline was tacked on to the exposition), and I didn't find them to be boring. I did have the luxury of reading it at my leisure, so I didn't feel any pressure to get through it quickly, or to be able to write insightful essays on it (I wouldn't be surprised if that is a key to enjoying it).

[Virgil]

Yes, Jean-B, or should I say Giovan-Battista:p you are being hasty about Melville's writing style. When Melville is on, he is among the best prose stylists ever. I admit that sometimes he lapses and gets convoluted. Do yourself a favor and just read Chapter 1 of Moby Dick (a ten minute read) and you will be treated to some of the best prose in English ever written.

[Silvia]

I'm glad you answered, bluevictim!!!
and sorry if I haven't been writing for such a long time!
I liked Melville's descriptions and all the other themes he deals with while telling us about the quest of the white whale too. To tell the truth, I don't find them boring at all...all the information from the author enrich the plot and give reliability to the speaking voice and to the story itself!!!
The thing that strikes me most about his writing is his tendency to rearrange the standard English usage in sentence structures. This always throws up a red flag to me that one is trying to make their writing seem more sophisticated than it is. I have heard the argument that his sentences follow the standards of his time, but I find nothing like them in Hawthorne or Poe.
I thought about Jean-Baptiste's comment and what I found out is that, actually, I like this fact.
Melville's tendency to rearrange the standard English, I mean.
I don't think it's a symptom of arrogance or a virtuosism..well...maybe it is...but it is still attractive to me.
There's an Italian writer I like a lot, Leonardo Sciascia, who inverts the common structure of the sentences so often that you end up thinking he's a poet!!
By the way, thank you for recommending my reading Billy Budd, sailor...this is a very busy period for me, a lot of homework, tests, and a lot of books to read for my literature teacher, but I'm taking into consideration reading it as soon as I have time!

[Jean-Baptiste]

Yes, Jean-B, or should I say Giovan-Battista:p you are being hasty about Melville's writing style. When Melville is on, he is among the best prose stylists ever. I admit that sometimes he lapses and gets convoluted. Do yourself a favor and just read Chapter 1 of Moby Dick (a ten minute read) and you will be treated to some of the best prose in English ever written.

I swear I replied to this the other day. I don't know what happened to my post. :confused: Well, I'm sure it was chock full of brilliant an witty eloquence. ;) Yes, Virgil, you're right (grumble grumble) and you've convinced me--well, BV made quite an impact as well--to take up this first chapter. You both have actually gotten me excited about it! Thanks! I can't say when I'll have that ten minutes, but soon. Well, I'd better stop there, because my hypothesis is that my original post was deleted for containing too much astounding and magnanimous humor and brilliance, and I don't want that to happen again. :p

Silvia: Nobody else agrees with me on Melville's writing either. :( :p I am glad that you enjoy it. Were you introduced to him through academics? What other English language books are you reading, or will be reading, or have read? Not that you need to give us a comprehensive list, just the one's you're excited about.

[Silvia]

when I said I didn't agree with you,Giovan-Battista, I didn't want to criticise your opinion of Melville.
I just like that aspect of his style but I realised it only later by considering my
usual readings...it wasn't my purpose to conform to the others!!
Yes, Moby Dick was a summer homework I was assigned by my English teacher together with Frankenstein, Gulliver's travels and Edgar Allan Poe's selected stories. What's funny about this story is that Melville's book was the only one I didn't read, because that's what I always do.
I never finish my homework (I'm starting to consider it as a psychological refusal..):lol: .
But when our teacher told me and 4 friends of mine to present it in front of the class and none of us knew what she was talking about, we realised it was high time we had taken it up!!
And that turned out to be a a very grezza choice!!
The first English book I read is Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice, and I loved it so much!! In my opinion she's one of the best writers of her age!
I have also read Mark Haddon's "The curious incident of the dog in the night time" and "a spot of bother", but I liked the former much more than the latter..ah, my teacher also made us read "differen seasons" by Stephen King, which I didn't find that good, although my teacher seems to be in love with it!
As you can see, I haven't read a lot in English..therefore, any suggestion is welcomed!!

[Virgil]

Silvia, if you like Jane Austen, try reading Emma when you have the time. I liked Pride and Prejudice, but i liked Emma even more.

What part of Italy are you from?

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Welcome to Lit-Net Silvia!!! Muahahahahaha!!!:flare:

Okay...That may be a little over the top.:sick:

Anyway, I'm pretty "keen" on reading books too!:lol:

But, I've never read Moby Dick. But if you need an some help on other stuff, I can lend a hand.

Hmm...I think I'll find myself a copy of some of Herman Melville's work...Like Moby Dick.:D

[bluevictim]

Do yourself a favor and just read Chapter 1 of Moby Dick (a ten minute read) and you will be treated to some of the best prose in English ever written.


Thanks! I can't say when I'll have that ten minutes, but soon.

Virgil = drug pusher.


Silvia, I'm glad you're enjoying your courses, but not taking them too seriously. There are lots of fine works of literature in English, so have fun!

[Virgil]

Virgil = drug pusher.


That is very funny. :lol:

[Silvia]

Actually, Virgil, I have already bought Emma (my teacher suggested that we should read it too), but I still have to finish Italo Svevo's "la coscienza di Zeno" for my Italian teacher and then I'll have to start reading something for my German one....But I hope I'll be able to read Jane Austen' book as soon as possible, since everyone is recommending it!!!!
I'm from Milan, in the northern part of Italy, but I'm sure you know where it is.
Have you ever been to Italy?

Thank you, Neo_Sephiroth! Do not doubt I'll ask you, in case I need some help!
what kind of books do you like?

[Jorrit]

I've been to Italy several times :P
my family even lives in the neighboorhood (1 hour away) from Milan....
Near Brechia....
well... English is also not my first language.... :P
Dutch is.... but I haven't got any problems at all anymore with reading English books or whatever :)

[Silvia]

I have relatives who live in Brescia too!
I have never been to Holland, by the way....and to tell the truth I don't know anything about this country...but a friend of mine is presently attending the Hague MUN session, and I bet se'll come back with a lot of stories to tell!!
I have been studying English for about 4 years and I wish I could read every book in its original language and understand each word written on it, but it's not that easy!!!

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Actually, Virgil, I have already bought Emma (my teacher suggested that we should read it too), but I still have to finish Italo Svevo's "la coscienza di Zeno" for my Italian teacher and then I'll have to start reading something for my German one....But I hope I'll be able to read Jane Austen' book as soon as possible, since everyone is recommending it!!!!
I'm from Milan, in the northern part of Italy, but I'm sure you know where it is.
Have you ever been to Italy?

Thank you, Neo_Sephiroth! Do not doubt I'll ask you, in case I need some help!
what kind of books do you like?

What kind of books do I like? Hmm...Well...It may be too soon to jump to any firm conclusion...But I like anything that catches my interest...And some of my interests (When it comes to books) are...Um...Crap! I can't think right now.:sick:

Umm...Well, here's is what I've been reading and what I've read already that I've enjoyed.

George Orwell-1984
Dante Alighieri-Divine Comedy*Inferno**Purgatory**Paradise*
Of Mice & Men
Romeo & Juliet
The Crucible
The Bible *I'm talking the Bible, bible, you know?*
Fyodor Dostoevsky-The Brothers Karamazov
Macbeth
The Merchant of Venice

...Various poems, myths (Greek, Celtic, Japanese, etc.), and so many other stuff...

...If you want to know more you can send me a message. *Whew*:D

[Silvia]

I'm reading Dante's Purgatorio right now and I'm enjoying it as much as Inferno. Did you read it on your own or at school? I have another question: did you buy a version with both English and Italian or just English?
It's really strange to me, because everybody has always told me that people from other countries, expecially Americans, don't even know who Dante is, and now I'm finding out that a lot of members of this site have read his Divine Comedy!
I tried to read Macbeth in English (I bought the bilingual version) but I always had to look at the Italian text. Shakespeare's language is too an ancient one!!!And I liked it, but I still prefer Richard 3.
I think it's quite difficult to find someone so interested in religion as to read the whole bible...I mean among young people.
Personally, religion is not appealing to me, but I really esteem those who take it seriously.
ok...I have to go. Tomorrow I have a test of Mathematics...:brickwall

[Neo_Sephiroth]

I'm reading Dante's Purgatorio right now and I'm enjoying it as much as Inferno. Did you read it on your own or at school? I have another question: did you buy a version with both English and Italian or just English?
It's really strange to me, because everybody has always told me that people from other countries, expecially Americans, don't even know who Dante is, and now I'm finding out that a lot of members of this site have read his Divine Comedy!
I tried to read Macbeth in English (I bought the bilingual version) but I always had to look at the Italian text. Shakespeare's language is too an ancient one!!!And I liked it, but I still prefer Richard 3.
I think it's quite difficult to find someone so interested in religion as to read the whole bible...I mean among young people.
Personally, religion is not appealing to me, but I really esteem those who take it seriously.
ok...I have to go. Tomorrow I have a test of Mathematics...:brickwall

Nah...I don't think the schools over here goes that deep into english...Or anything other subject for that matter. They just teach you the basics.

If you want to pursue a subject any further you'll have to grab a shovel, study, and look for the book yourself.

So...Yeah...I dove into Dante's Divine Comedy myself.:D I found myself the english version only though...Not the Italian. Which is very unfortunate.:sick:

:lol: Well, at least you like Shakespeare's language. For me, there's is no substitute for the original. I love the ancient languange.

In fact, one of these days I'll learn how to read, write, and speak Italian! Why? It is all because of Dante's Divine Comedy. *And maybe some hot italian chicks*:p I want to read the original Comedy in it's original tongue. There's been a little too many translation on Dante's Divine Comedy.

Which is a wonderful thing by all means...That's how I came to find out about Dante...But now that I've grown to understand and comprehend the meanings behind the words of writers...I want to find out for myself. Dante is one such writer...And what better way to understand than read it in it's original tongue?:D

As for the Bible...Well, I want to see what's all the commotion is about. Which leads me to do some research on not only the Bible, but other religions as well. So I'm not "really" interested in religion as you might have thought...Just curious, that's all. It caught my interests.:D

Well, looks like I have to go too.:yawnb: Good luck with the math test!:)

[Silvia]

You're right, Neo_Sephiroth.
As you said for Shakespeare, I think that reading Dante in English is not the same as reading it in Italian!
And it seems to me sort of heroic and romantic to decide to learn a language just because of a poem (and for those hot chicks, of course!;) )!!
To be honest, one of the reasons why I'm studying languages is very similar to yours.
It would be grateful if I could read Melville or Jane Austen or Goethe in their original tongue and understand everything the way they wanted you to understand it!
Well, good luck with your Italian!
silvia

[Neo_Sephiroth]

You're right, Neo_Sephiroth.
As you said for Shakespeare, I think that reading Dante in English is not the same as reading it in Italian!
And it seems to me sort of heroic and romantic to decide to learn a language just because of a poem (and for those hot chicks, of course!;) )!!
To be honest, one of the reasons why I'm studying languages is very similar to yours.
It would be grateful if I could read Melville or Jane Austen or Goethe in their original tongue and understand everything the way they wanted you to understand it!
Well, good luck with your Italian!
silvia

Thank you Silvia!:D

But I would like to point out that the reason for wanting to learn Italian is...Uh...90% Dante...And 10% hot Italian chicks.:lol:

Well, hope you have fun here on Lit-Net and good luck on your english!:D

...Um...It is english, right?:sick:

[Virgil]

It's really strange to me, because everybody has always told me that people from other countries, expecially Americans, don't even know who Dante is, and now I'm finding out that a lot of members of this site have read his Divine Comedy!

Oh that is not true. Of course I'm talking about college graduates. Most liberal arts students will have been exposed to at least Inferno.

By the way Silvia, I've been reading Purgatorio also, but I've had to put it aside the past couple of months for other reading. I'm up to Canto Sixteen, and to be honest, Purgotorio might actually be more interesting than Inferno. I read it in English, but I do have Italian on the facing page, and do try to look at both.

[ranzy]

Hi Silvia. As you can see I'm from Italy, too. I study Amrican English and German at the University of Padua and I also like very much reading book in their original language.
I'd like to return for a second to the original theme of the topic, that is Moby Dick, just to say that I have read the original version in English two years ago. I found it really difficult (maybe the most difficult book I've read in English) but it was also a challenging experience and I have learned a lot from the book. I remember a lot of hard time with some sentences (the one in which Melville describes the whitness of the whale is almost two pages long...) but I've enjoyed so much the book and its deepness that now I've just begun reading it in italian to better capture all the meanings of it.
Just a question: in your first post you mention a Calvino's translation of Moby Dick. Are you sure about it? Because I've never heard of it, maybe you're confusing Calvino with Pavese.
All I want to tell you, however, is to keep reading books in english and never be afraid of them being too difficult. As I have discovered you can learn something from every book, even the most difficult. (and if you really don't understand anything you can always skip to something else)

[Silvia]

yes...you're right!!
I checked it on my book and it's Pavese!!:blush:
Anyway, I tried to read Moby Dick in English, but I had to stop at the second page for, really, it was too much for me....but I agree with you when you say we always have to try!!
The latest book I read in English is Mark Haddon's A spot of bother. Of course I couldn't understand every single word (there were many slang constructions and idioms) but in the end, when I realised I had finished it, I felt so proud of myself!!
I study German too!! but I don't like it as much as English....Have you read "die Leiden des jungen Werthers"?
I liked it a lot (of course I read it with the help of the Italian text)!!!

Getting back to Moby Dick, I think I'll wait a couple of months and then start reading it again...let's hope I'll manage to!!
silvia

[ranzy]

I study German too!! but I don't like it as much as English....Have you read "die Leiden des jungen Werthers"?
I liked it a lot (of course I read it with the help of the Italian text)!!!
silvia

I used to dislike German but as I go on studying it and understanding a little bit more German culture (and literature) I begin to appreciate the language and now I'm happy I've chosen German as second language.
As regards Goethe, I know very well what you're talking about because last year's topic for the German literature course was Enlightenment and Sturm und Drang and in particular the young Goethe, from his first works to "die Leiden des jungen Werthers". I liked the book, but what I liked the most was a biography we had to read ("il giovane Goethe" di G. Baioni) which showed a lot of parallales between Goethe's works (above all the Werther) and his real life and helped me a lot understanding the genius of Goethe.
Getting back to Moby Dick, my high-school teacher used to tell us to open the first pages of a book (in english) and then see if we could understand at least the general meaning. If we couldn't we should give up, take another book and then come back later to that first book.
(By the way, it took me more than three months to finish Moby Dick in english)

[Neo_Sephiroth]

yes...you're right!!
I checked it on my book and it's Pavese!!:blush:
Anyway, I tried to read Moby Dick in English, but I had to stop at the second page for, really, it was too much for me....but I agree with you when you say we always have to try!!
The latest book I read in English is Mark Haddon's A spot of bother. Of course I couldn't understand every single word (there were many slang constructions and idioms) but in the end, when I realised I had finished it, I felt so proud of myself!!
I study German too!! but I don't like it as much as English....Have you read "die Leiden des jungen Werthers"?
I liked it a lot (of course I read it with the help of the Italian text)!!!

Getting back to Moby Dick, I think I'll wait a couple of months and then start reading it again...let's hope I'll manage to!!
silvia

Wait a couple of months to finish Moby Dick, huh? Well, I guess that's good news for me...It'll give me the chance to catch up! I just got myself a copy! :D
After reading the introduction to the book I've got one thing to say...I will finish this book!

[Silvia]

My teacher made us study Goethe's life and there are a lot of similarities with Werther, that's true.
Actually, I do understand the general meaning of what I read of Moby Dick, but, still, it seems to me not enough!
But maybe I'm too pretentious and should try to read it all the same ...yes...that's what I'm going to do!!
I just hope it'll take me as long as it took you to finish it...honestly, three months are not that long, considering that Melville is not the easiest writer on Earth and that English is not your first language!
For what German is concerned, I like it, but find it hard to express myself by talking, expecially during interrogations ( the last one was about Sturm und Drang and die Klassik, and I took only 6.5:smash:)
While I'm better at writing, because I have more time to think about declinations etc...
By the way, thank you for your suggestion!

[ranzy]

Actually, I do understand the general meaning of what I read of Moby Dick, but, still, it seems to me not enough!
But maybe I'm too pretentious and should try to read it all the same ...yes...that's what I'm going to do!!

I understand what you're saying and that's the reason why I'm now reading it in italian after having read the original version. But if you have already read the italian one you should have already catched the story and the theme of the book and now you may want to pay attention to Melville's style of writing. But obviously it may be boring to do that if you don't understanding it very well, so I totally agree with your decision of taking up the book in some months. Keep in mind that you're doing it for your own pleasure...

[Virgil]

I understand what you're saying and that's the reason why I'm now reading it in italian after having read the original version. But if you have already read the italian one you should have already catched the story and the theme of the book and now you may want to pay attention to Melville's style of writing. But obviously it may be boring to do that if you don't understanding it very well, so I totally agree with your decision of taking up the book in some months. Keep in mind that you're doing it for your own pleasure...

Just a comment for Silvia and Ranzy, wouldn't it be easier to read in Italian first and then try the original language? This way you know the story and then try to understand the foreign language.

[Silvia]

yes, Virgil, it would be easier to read in Italian and then in English....but, as ranzy said, it may be boring or you may simply not feel like reading the same booke twice.
In this case, since I enjoyed Moby Dick so much in Italian, I would love to start reading it in it's original language...It's just that I don't feel ready yet!!
I have something to ask you:while reading your profile and that of other people in this site, I found out quite everybody put Faulkner as favorite writer....an author I have never heard of!!
could you suggest my reading of one (maybe the most famous or just the one you prefer) of his books?

to ranzy: I totally agree: I read for my own plesure...that's why I'm determined to re-read Moby Dick...It'll be a little bit hard, but I think it deserves at least my effort!!!
Anyway,it's nice you share some of my thoughts about reading books in a language which is not your own!!

[Virgil]

Silvia, William Faulkner is the probably the greatest American novelist and in my opinion the greatest of the whole 20th century. Here's a little something from the encyclopedia:

William Cuthbert Faulkner (September 25, 1897 – July 6, 1962) was an American novelist and poet whose works feature his native state of Mississippi. Regarded as one of the most influential writers of the twentieth century, Faulkner was awarded the 1949 Nobel Prize for Literature.

Faulkner's writing is often criticized as being dense, meandering and difficult to understand due to his heavy use of such literary techniques as symbolism, allegory, multiple narrators and points of view, non-linear narrative, and especially stream of consciousness. Faulkner was known for an experimental style with meticulous attention to diction and cadence, in contrast to the minimalist understatement of his rival Ernest Hemingway.

Along with Mark Twain and possibly Tennessee Williams, Faulkner is considered to be one of the most important "Southern writers". He was relatively unknown before receiving the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1949, but his work is now favored by the general public and critics.[1]

You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Faulkner

His acceptance speech of the Nobel Prize is worth reading and a quote of it is in my signature: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html

You read about his novels here: http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/lib_novels.html

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16592

Hope this helps. I think he's the greatest novelist. You might want to start with a short story.

[ranzy]

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16592


I have read "the sound and the fury" but I am going to read it again as soon as I've got the time, because I spent the first half of the book just wondering what was happening and who the characters were and I didn't pay attention to Faulkner's writing. But I have to say that I liked very much the last part of the book, there are some sentences in particular (that now I can't remember) that I really loved.


Just a comment for Silvia and Ranzy, wouldn't it be easier to read in Italian first and then try the original language? This way you know the story and then try to understand the foreign language.

Yes, it is surely easier and I admit it would have been better with Moby Dick, but I'm so hungry for new books that I don't always want to read a book twice, so I sometimes hope to understand the english version whithout the help of the italian one. That has worked well with some authors (Jane Austen, George Orwell...) but not enough with Moby Dick

[Neo_Sephiroth]

Silvia, William Faulkner is the probably the greatest American novelist and in my opinion the greatest of the whole 20th century. Here's a little something from the encyclopedia:


You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Faulkner

His acceptance speech of the Nobel Prize is worth reading and a quote of it is in my signature: http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/faulkner/faulkner.html

You read about his novels here: http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/lib_novels.html

I will say his novels are difficult. We discussed in detail The Sound and the Fury here at lit net book club forums: http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16592

Hope this helps. I think he's the greatest novelist. You might want to start with a short story.

I just read his acceptence speech...He is a great man.

Thank you for leading me to this great writer.

You know, I've realized something...I don't have much of a problem (If any...:p ) when it comes to understanding the writer and/or his/her work...It's finding them that I have a hard time with.

I guess I just need someone to point me to the direction that leads to an "unknown" writer and such...Just need some recommendation now and then.

Your response was probably intended for Silvia but...Still...Thanks.:D

[oldbob39]

Hello, Silvia. I was so pleased at my first impression of you that I thought I would reply. I hope I can contribute something to you. And I would be delighted to open a conversation with you. Your study of languages is an admirable thing to a Yank, particularly since we seldom study languages very seriously, forget them immediately upon graduation, and never, never read anything in the original. May I offer some thoughts on the things that have been written? (I am not really well educated in literature but I do have some literary ambitions, like regularly writing and submitting poetry and short stories, and imagining that someday I will finish my novel.)

1. On Melville and the unusual constructions and often inverted word orders, he uses, it is often useful to use inversions to emphasize a word or idea, but Melville may seem to be overusing the idea. I do not know if it is characteristic of the era, but by the time of Stephen Crane in "Red Badge of Courage" (1860's), the language was much less complex (or, as I often call it, "ornate") The feeling has been expressed here that Melville is harder to read than necessary, and I agree. He does indeed have a tendency to write sentences that seem excessively long, and have too many "side trips". One writer mentioned William Faulkner, who I think does especially interesting work and also uses extremely long sentences, but in my opinion, uses them much more effectively than Melville. (I would offer a suggestion as to my favorite Faulkner, but I have it packed away and would have to look for it. I will if you wish. I have a feeling that your assignments have neglected the most lively era of American lit, since you didn't mention him.)

2. Of Shakespeare, "MacBeth" is widely taught in the US, and I like it. It sounds good read aloud in English, and I don't know if that comes through in Italian translation, but he uses an interesting form for some of his speeches: he frequently writes apparent prose in his speeches, then goes into rhymed meter for his last two lines. See the final scene where MacBeth says "Damned be he who first cries 'Hold, enough'." (I may have misquoted slightly. Sorry.) But you mentioned Richard III iwhich I find magnificent. the opening line is surely one of the greatest in the English language. John Steinbeck borrowed "Winter of our Discontent" for the title of a very fine novel which may be worth reading (Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" is one of the greatest of American novels, but it is difficult reading, too.)

Shakespeare's English can be challenging to even the American-English speaker (and I have no idea if the British-English speakers have an easier time of it.) If you want to explore Shakespeare and have access to films on DVD or VCR format, you might seek out "Henry V" with Kenneth Branagh as star, then follow he written text as you watch.

3. If you want another novel that is often regarded as one of the greatest in American lit, consider "The Great Gatsby" by Fitzgerald. I personally do not especially like it, but smarter people than I am seem to hold it in great respect.

Well, I hope I may have contributed some useful thoughts. I would very much enjoy hearing from you. I have never been to Italy, myself, but my daughter just finished a week's tour of the area near Pisa two weeks ago, and she gave us pleasant accounts of her trip.

Old Bob

[Silvia]

hi old bob, I'm glad you replied!
Well, it's true, our programme has probably left out the most lively period of American literature so far, but we have just took up using the new book " A History and Anthology of English Literature with American and Commonwealth Insights" starting from the 19th century and I'm so so happy about that for we are finally going to analize authors such as Mary Shelley, Jane Austen, Oscar Wilde, Emily Dickinson and so on....I'm looking forward to it...Anyway,I asked my teacher about Faulkner today, and she said that we're not going to study him, which is a pity, I guess..

For what Shakespeare is concerned, I spent a lot of time on him and I love Richard III....Honestly, I do not believe I'm as prepared on this subject as any English or American student might be, but, still, I enjoy reading his works and don't find it hard to understand the meaning he wanted to conceive. It's just the ancient language he employs I have difficulties with and I always need the Italian version.....as I said in the previous threads, I don't feel satisfied with getting "the general meaning". That's why I'm working to improve my vocabulary by reading in English and joining this site..but then again, perhaps I'm just dreaming, I mean, I would't even understand Dante's Divine Comedy without the notes...:D

Oh, and my teacher made us watch some estracts from different versions of Othello (that with Mel Gibson, another movie with Kenneth Branah..) and also Richard III with Al Pacino (what a great actor!), which I loved so much. well, it was not a real movie...it was more like a documentary, with the actors and actresses addressing the audience and providing us with historical information. I have never heard of Kenneth Branah's "Henry V", but I'm going to suggest that we should watch it too!!

I can see why your daughter liked Pisa...it is a gorgeous town!! I would suggest your coming to see Italy too, you would enjoy it for sure!

Thank you again for your pieces of advice, it has been very kind of you and I'm sure they'll turn out to be very useful..sorry if it took me so much to answer!
Silvia

[latimeri]

Welcome to the forums, Silvia! :wave: I'm sure you'll fit right in here.

I have not read Moby Dick, but I can say that Melville's style does not appeal to me, based on some of his short stories that I've read. He seems to fall into the trap of the self-educated in making his vocabulary and sentence structure work doubly hard in an attempt to compensate, or prove that formal education is unnecessary. I think this may be where you're finding difficulties, and I'm sure that it's not the fault of the translator. It's been insisted to me that his ideas are profound, tragic, and influential, but all I've ever seen is a garble of trite tripe. Again, I can't speak for Moby Dick, and perhaps he concentrated his best mental exertion on that work. The thing that strikes me most about his writing is his tendency to rearrange the standard English usage in sentence structures. This always throws up a red flag to me that one is trying to make their writing seem more sophisticated than it is. I have heard the argument that his sentences follow the standards of his time, but I find nothing like them in Hawthorne or Poe.

In any case, your English seems very good, for one insisting that it is not--and I see no reason why you should deny your ability to tackle Melville in the original.

Again, welcome! I look forward to your contribution to the forums. :)

How you can say anything about the Mellvile's style without been read the book.