Lord of the Flies

[Jorrit]

hi....
I'm doing this raport on Lord of the Flies.. and I've got a question:P... In what time do you guys think that Lord of the Flies is in and why do you think that William Golding has chosen that time period and not another one.:(

I'd appreciate it a lot of you could help me with this problem;) :)

[ennison]

A future WWIII but one based upon the time in which Golding wrote the book and upon his own experiences at sea in WWII and as a schoolteacher.

[Jorrit]

mmm... to be honoust I think your answer is wrong:crash:
I thought the story (lord of the Flies) \

1) happened during WWO2 and to be more precice in 1940 - 1941. That's because the German Luftwaffe than began to bomb London, so they send the children away... ???...

2) It was during the Cold war... because of the threat of a nuclear war.. which was imminent during that time...??

[ennison]

My answer is correct.I can provide textual evidence for it. You offer two mutually exclusive suggestions. In any case exact time is irrelevant as Golding is not studying a particular war but human nature as he saw it. And how he saw it was based upon his own experiences.

[SaGe]

Ennison is right. Jorrit you're kind of right too though; the book takes place during a future war that is likely based on past wars, most notably World War II and possibly the Cold War (the nuclear aspect).

However, I think the time period is somewhat arbitrary. But I'd definitely say it takes place in the future and that the severity of the kids' actions is maybe more extreme because of this. Also if that's a school prompt of some kind, it's not a very good one in my opinion.

[Jorrit]

thanks a lot... :thumbs_up
but... it is relevant.. :P.. becaus I needed it for a report...
and another question? ;)...
do you think there is a connection between the location and atmosphere???

I think it's completely the opposite... the island is just marvelous / beautifull / ideal for survivial.. there are trees / fruit / meat / a lagoon etc. while the atmosphere in completely the other way around.. because it's cruel / deadly (simon get killed, piggy and the littlun with the gigantic birthmark on his face)... pigs also get killed, there is a huge fire etc. etc. :sick:

I'm interested to hear your opinion about it :)

[Reccura]

All i can say is that book gave me the creeps at night... It's very.... Cruel. I don't think I want to read it again...

[SaraSoliman]

i had to read it as a school reader too. its a great book; absolutely fantastic, very, very moving. the quick change of Jack's horrible, savage character was seen coming, and i hated him even more and more as the story progressed. my liking for ralph grew with my hatred for Jack, and i was just taken aback and shocked at poor simon's death.

[Jorrit]

well.. thanks for your opinion guys... (to be honoust.. I thought it was a bit of a stupid book.. I mean... a bunch of 12 years old... managing themselves on an island... it's a bit unbalievable.. ??? don't ya think:crash:

but.. that didn't answer my question :) :p
... if there is a link between the atmosphere and the location ;)

I think the atmosphere and the location are completely the opposites of eachother... the island is just marvelous / beautifull / ideal for survivial.. there are trees / fruit / meat / a lagoon etc. while the atmosphere in completely the other way around.. because it's cruel / deadly (simon get killed, piggy and the littlun with the gigantic birthmark on his face)... pigs also get killed, there is a huge fire etc. etc. :sick:

I'm interested to hear your opinion about it :)

[SaGe]

It's an allegory, there are connections between everything :)

However, location and atmosphere each have multiple meanings. Location can be the island's location relative to the world, or it could describe the actual location itself (attributes of the island). Like, "this island, located here is a beautiful location." Same with atmosphere, which could be the island's actual atmospheric conditions (climate) or the atmosphere on the island (like the relations between the kids).

So that probably doesn't make any sense, but I don't think your question was really specific enough. I'd be inclined to believe atmosphere refers to weather and location refers to actual worldly location, and if so I'm sure there is probably a connection, but I doubt it's significant.

--And if these are questions your teacher gave you, they're kind of lame. The book's physical, aesthetic, etc. conditions are pretty much irrelevant when it comes to actual significance and understanding the book's events and meaning.

[Jorrit]

:D well... sage
it's true... yes my teachter gave them to me (I'm following a programm.. called IB (international baccalaureat, from origin I'm dutch) so Enligsh is my second language.. and by reading books once in a while.. and discuss it... make reports out of it.. answer questions.. the teachers try to give us a better understanding of the enlgish language and literature :sick: :)

I agree.. the questions aren't always that clear.. that's why I want to ask other people opinion about it.. so that they can help me... to improve my knowledge about the enlish language / literature and so...

and the question literaly was
"place" is there a connection between the atmosphere and the location... I think / assume that with loacation they mean.. the island on itself... so that it is beautifull.. tropical... heaven on earth.. and with atmosphere they mean (or that's t least what I assume :thumbs_up :D ) that they mean... the feelings that everybody got.. like.. that they've got the creeps... of jack... and that they're all afraid of the beast etc. etc.

but I'd appreciate a lot to hear your opinion about it... :)

ps what's an allegory?? and aesthetic?? :S... and that the questions are pretty stupid... and lame.. I know :P.. but I've got now choice ;)

[Whifflingpin]

" bunch of 12 years old... managing themselves on an island... it's a bit unbalievable.. ??? don't ya think"

Not at all unbelievable - 12 year olds are quite capable of surviving without adults, given a sufficiently benign environment.

"Lord of the Flies" was, to some extent, written to contrast with Ballantyne's much more optimistic "Coral Island." That too deals with three lads, Ralph, Jack and Peterkin, cast up on a lush tropical island, and learning to survive there. The tropical heaven on earth is a setting taken from the earlier work. So too, the isolation of the characters. The difference is in how the characters behave in similar situations.

In "Coral Island," the boys respond to the paradise, and form, in effect, their own idyllic community. All the evil is external to the main characters.

In "Lord of the Flies" Golding shows that the boys bring their own evil with them into their paradise - and so, by analogy, do we all.

[SaGe]

:D well... sage
it's true... yes my teachter gave them to me (I'm following a programm.. called IB (international baccalaureat, from origin I'm dutch) so Enligsh is my second language.. and by reading books once in a while.. and discuss it... make reports out of it.. answer questions.. the teachers try to give us a better understanding of the enlgish language and literature :sick: :)

I agree.. the questions aren't always that clear.. that's why I want to ask other people opinion about it.. so that they can help me... to improve my knowledge about the enlish language / literature and so...

and the question literaly was
"place" is there a connection between the atmosphere and the location... I think / assume that with loacation they mean.. the island on itself... so that it is beautifull.. tropical... heaven on earth.. and with atmosphere they mean (or that's t least what I assume :thumbs_up :D ) that they mean... the feelings that everybody got.. like.. that they've got the creeps... of jack... and that they're all afraid of the beast etc. etc.

but I'd appreciate a lot to hear your opinion about it... :)

ps what's an allegory?? and aesthetic?? :S... and that the questions are pretty stupid... and lame.. I know :P.. but I've got now choice ;)
Ohh ok I didn't realize English was your second language. An allegory is basically a story in which everything concrete (the characters, events etc) is symbolic of something else, like something more profound. By aesthetic I just mean the physical beauty of the island and its characteristics.

Anyways, I'd say that the island's beauty is the perfect backdrop for the developing evil in the children. The kids start out full of purity just like the beautiful island, and become impure and they even burn the island / start to corrupt its beauty as their own inner purity is corrupted. Like the plane leaves an indentation in the island called "the scar" which is forgivable, but then they start to kill the island's animals, they start the fire, etc.

[Jorrit]

thanks a lot 4 your answer Sage and Whifflingpin :)
(well... yes it's my second language....which I'm trying to get at the level off my own language (dutch))
well... so.. what you are saying is more or less... in the beginning atmosphere and location are good and lateron (as they become savages) they BOTH get less... especially the atmosphere?? :thumbs_up

thanks... now I can finally answer it correctly :P...

and are allegory and easthetic.. speech techniques??? (like metaphors .. similies etc. ???) or writing techniques?? (like strong ending etc.???)

and Whifflinpin... I don't believe it's possible for 5 12 / 11 years old and I dunno how many littluns to survive on an Island...
also killing those pigs... people from that age haven't even got enough strenght to stick the spear into the pig hard enough to kill him etc. it ísn't ISN'T possible for them to kill a pig. So in real life they just won't be able to survive.. even if they've got a nice environment.. it'll only extent their time on the island...
by a nice environment (with enough fresh sweet water "the lagoon") and with fruit "the trees" they'll be able to survive a while... but not for months / a year.. like they did in LOTF... the human body isn't able to function on only fruit and water for a long period of time...

and for example it's also unrealistic that nobody of them gets ill... :|... I mean... at night it's extremely cold.. and at night it rains a lot.. and even they don't catch a flu or whatever, even not the littluns.. that's also unrealistic.
What's also pretty unrealistich is that they survive the plaincrash... I mean.. when an airplain drops down on an island.. it should explode or something.. it ain't possible that they survive. :)

So :P you see I'm pretty negative about the abilities of 12 / 11 year old and littluns to survive. To my opinion they at least had to be 15+ to survive alon on an Island.



I'll let you know when I've got another weird question Sage :P ;) :idea:

thanks in advange :D :idea:

[Jorrit]

Well.. guys :)
I've got another question :sick:

the question is "Symbols; images to project events that are about to happen"...

do you guys now something.. which is a hint for a future thing that's going to happen :|

well... I can't think of any :crash: :crash: :crash:

I'd appreciate it a lot if you could give me some.. or at least one :P.. :S... because I haven't got a clue :| !!!!

Thanks in advance :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :) :)

[Jay]

You might want to have a look here (http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/flies/themes.html) ;)

[Whifflingpin]

"you see I'm pretty negative about the abilities of 12 / 11 year old and littluns to survive."

Well you may be right, although I do not agree with you.

What is certain is that you will score no points in exams by maintaining that view. In order to start considering what the book is about, you need to accept the environment, and the survival as given. Assuming they landed safely, in that place, and were able to survive, then .... the interesting discussions can begin.

.

[SaGe]

Well.. guys :)
I've got another question :sick:

the question is "Symbols; images to project events that are about to happen"...

do you guys now something.. which is a hint for a future thing that's going to happen :|

well... I can't think of any :crash: :crash: :crash:

I'd appreciate it a lot if you could give me some.. or at least one :P.. :S... because I haven't got a clue :| !!!!

***Spoiler Alert***

hmmmmmmmm the conch shell comes to mind (it eventually shatters, and with it, the island's order), Piggy's glasses (They're stolen, foreshadows Piggy's death and helps mark the boys' decline), Simon (because he basically represents innocence and they kill him), ummm I'd check sparknotes for that :)

[Jorrit]

'k thanks
sparknotes.. didn't know that one '
I'll check it.. thanks a lot... (but... do you really think that the stolen glasses from piggy mean his death :|)

Greetings Jorrit

[SaGe]

I'd argue that the broken glasses could be interpreted as the foreshadowing of his death, yes. The boys consider him worthless without the glasses (even though he could've been very useful) and the act of stealing them illustrates their decline, which ends in his death. Though that's maybe a bit of an extreme interpretation.

[brainstrain]

Wow! Jorrit my Dad teaches IB History (I think it's U.S., maybe world, I'm not sure =P). If you live in Texas than that would be even creepier, because he has several dutch students...

[Jorrit]

no.. :)
I don't live in Texas...
I live in the Netherlands :)
but cool :P.. I didn't know that IB was also given in english speaking countries... I mean it's already their Native language :|what do they have to learn :|... I mean... I do.. higher IB... ??... to learn how to BECOME a native speaker... but if ya live in the US.. you're already a native??
or does he only teach people that aren't from the US etc.. so from the Netherlands?

[Jorrit]

I've got a question, why do you think that golding wrote this book???
to show that in everyone is savagery?? even in the best or what?

[masterlibrarian]

I've got a question, why do you think that golding wrote this book???
to show that in everyone is savagery?? even in the best or what?

"man produces evil as a bee produces honey"
(William Golding)
Yes, I think that the most important message given by the author of this book it's that without the rules given to us by living in society (from which the childrens are less influenced than the adults) the savagery of our instincs are freely to emerge, leaded by our intelligence to a level of ferocity that only a human can reach.

[Scheherazade]

"man produces evil as a bee produces honey"
(William Golding)
Yes, I think that the most important message given by the author of this book it's that without the rules given to us by living in society (from which the childrens are less influenced than the adults) the savagery of our instincs are freely to emerge, leaded by our intelligence to a level of ferocity that only a human can reach.I think throughout the book the reader is often left with the notion that 'civilization' is only skin deep (just a veneer we haev learnt to cover up our instincts) and when we are left to our own devices, we will be forgetting about it very easily and give in to our primitive urges.

[Jorrit]

:|.... that's the same as I thought sherezade :)

[ennison]

The tiny incident where the three boys exploring the island react in three different ways to the bright flowers is symbolic of their characters and I guess a kind of foreshsadowing of plot events to come.

[Black roses]

Well, as the pig hunts continue and become more and more savage, there is a correlation between that and Piggy's own oncoming demise.
Also, Piggy's glasses represent clearsightedness and unity, and when they began to crack, and are eventually stolen, it shows that the foundation of the society that Ralph worked so hard to create was cracking as well.
The book basically says that human nature is raw, and savage. We cover it up, sugar coat it, but in the end out high and mighty ideals of civilization are all too easy to destroy. Also, that this is in all humans, young or old. There is no innocence in youth, only ignorance.

[Lyn]

With reference to earlier questions, ie the island and the atmosphere - the island is a metaphor. It is described as being vaguely ship shaped. So it is a symbol of the journey of psychological discovery that the boys are going on. When the plane lands, it 'scars' the landscape, and throughout the novel it seems like nature gets more and more threatening towards the boys, like it is trying to 'attack back.' The boys seem to be fighting against nature in a way, yet at the same time they are discovering what their true natures are. Thats why Golding uses pathetic fallacy when Simon is beaten to death - the thunderstorms echo the evil actions of the boys.
The novel is basically stating that humans are evil at heart - our true nature is to be evil. When they 'attack' the land with their machine (representing the 'civilised' world (ironic that war is civilised - perhaps another comment on WW2)) then even nature itself reveals itself to be threatening.
Simon is a prophetic character - he was always going to be a prophet, who could see the world for what it really is - his fainting at the start, giving out fruit to the boys (like Jesus feeding the five thousand) going off on his own and 'thinking' all points towards him being a prophet who could see the truth of the parachutist/beast. The fragility of the shell, as mentioned right at the start of the novel also hints that its going to be broken.

[heaven__eyes]

Im also doing a project on Lord of the Flies in my grade ten advanced english class. I know im quite young, but I have read a lot of books and I take interest in reading. This book confused me a little, i dont think Goldings writing style quite suits my reading style, if that makes sense. There were a lot of descriptions that were hard to follow and a lot less dialogue. He writes beautifully, but teaching this book in highschool, in my opinion, isn't a great idea. For one thing, I am an athiest, brought up that way by my parents, and I dont understand when people talk about biblical references, because i haven't read the bible. I think they should teach it in a higher level of education, or just leave it out of the curriculum all together.

[Jorrit]

atheist to
and In don't think that they should teach us the bible

[Jorrit]

what do you guys think that is the most important passage in the book??????????????

FOR INSTANCE???
the part where Jack kills his first pig (the one that's trapped): first hint to savagery
the part where the signal fire goes out:
the part where Simon "meets" the lord of the flies / beelzebub
the part where Jack starts his own tribe: Finally there is real savagery

I'm curious to know :) :thumbs_up

[Bysshe]

It's hard singling out a particular passage. I'm not sure...perhaps Simon's death, which is the ultimate act of savagery. I don't know if that's necessarily the most important passage, but to me it seems to be the most significant. But of course it's open to interpretation.

[Richier]

I was lead to understand that the most important passage of the book is the end and the fact that the boys are picked up by a warship - the boys are rescued by the frigate, but who will rescue the sailors (that's not a quote from the book by the way)