January / G.B. Shaw Book: 'Pygmalion'

[Scheherazade]

In January, we will be reading Pygmalion by Shaw.

Please post your comments and questions here.


Pygmalion: Online Text (http://www.online-literature.com/george_bernard_shaw/pygmalion/)


Book Club Procedures (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?p=57103#post57103)

[Nightshade]

are we reading the novel version or the play version?

[Scheherazade]

are we reading the novel version or the play version?The play version. I was not aware that there was a novel version as well.

[Nightshade]

huh yes there is I read that already but this is good because the library only had the play version in :nod:

[Virgil]

I read Act I today. Does anyone think it's possible for someone to tell what neighborhood you're from just by pronounciation? I know accents are more distinct in England and i'm sure people did not travel about as far before mass transportation. But still what Higgins does in Act I seems kind of improbable. Does it make a difference?

[SleepyWitch]

I read Act I today. Does anyone think it's possible for someone to tell what neighborhood you're from just by pronounciation? I know accents are more distinct in England and i'm sure people did not travel about as far before mass transportation. But still what Higgins does in Act I seems kind of improbable. Does it make a difference?

hey Virg, there's a professor of historical linguistics at my univ who can actually do that! Well, I'm not sure she can pin people down to exact lanes but she can locate them within a few kilometres based on their accent!
Those early phoneticians were virtually obsessed with their work (care to know how Daniel Jones determined the position of the tongue during the articulation of vowels? It's a gruesome story), so they might have actually been as precise as that.

[Schokokeks]

Does anyone think it's possible for someone to tell what neighborhood you're from just by pronounciation? I know accents are more distinct in England and i'm sure people did not travel about as far before mass transportation. But still what Higgins does in Act I seems kind of improbable. Does it make a difference?
If I remember correctly, the girl is to be cured of her Cockney accent, that has very old roots in particular areas of and around London, so that there perhaps might have been a distinction even between neighbourhoods. I think Higgins was modelled on the famous phonetician Daniel Jones, and being able to recognise an accent that clearly surely adds to his being greatly skilled ;).

[SleepyWitch]

hehe Schoko, that was a good double post. Great minds think alike :)

[Schokokeks]

Great minds think alike :)
Or else: two idiots - one thought ? :p

[Virgil]

If I remember correctly, the girl is to be cured of her Cockney accent, that has very old roots in particular areas of and around London, so that there perhaps might have been a distinction even between neighbourhoods. I think Higgins was modelled on the famous phonetician Daniel Jones, and being able to recognise an accent that clearly surely adds to his being greatly skilled ;).

I am not from England, or more specifically London. I do understand that the English have more distinct accents between their localities than Americans. I'm trying to touch on my experience and see how someone could actually find disctinctions between neighborhoods of a city. I grew up in Brooklyn, one of the five Boroughs of New York city. There are subtle distinctions between someone from Brooklyn and say someone from Manhatten or Bronx. I guess it's possible to be so learned in the local speech patterns as to hear it. No one from outside New York would be able to hear the distinction and I would bet that 90% of New Yorkers wouldn't hear it either. Like I said above, the time before mass transportation and now mass communication those distinctions would have been sharper. On the other hand, New York City is a city of 8 million people. London at the time of Higgins was probably around a million. Who knows. I guess it's possible.

Certainly in the world of the play, one has to accept it as possible.

[Scheherazade]

Couple of months ago, there was an article in the TIME magazine on a similar subject:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1535768,00.html

[Silv]

Hm..I also read Act I today. Is this meant to be a piece of satire?

Also, I find this Flower Girl to be extremely strange. She is dressed as a pauper, her accent reflects her as being a pauper (albeit a moaning, annoying one), yet she seems to be able to pay such things as a taxi fare! Is it out of cheating people from such methods as when she extracted money from the Mother? If so, then could it also be said that her moaning, weeping, and fear of the Notetaker as being a nark is just all an act to stir sympathy amongst the crowd (since it becomes very clear and evident that he is not going to inform the police about her)?

The significance of the title, Pygmalion, is also something I'm wondering about. At this point it doesn't appear to have any meaning, but perhaps later on.

[Nightshade]

In egypt there was this case of a begger woman, when she died they clered out her hovel and she had 1/2 million pounds under her bed! appearnce are nohing.

Well Ive been reading finshed act1 and moved into the second one and I must say Ive never seen a moore snobish bigoted yes rasist is classest man like hiigins ever in life or books:nod:

[Virgil]

Hm..I also read Act I today. Is this meant to be a piece of satire?

Also, I find this Flower Girl to be extremely strange. She is dressed as a pauper, her accent reflects her as being a pauper (albeit a moaning, annoying one), yet she seems to be able to pay such things as a taxi fare! Is it out of cheating people from such methods as when she extracted money from the Mother? If so, then could it also be said that her moaning, weeping, and fear of the Notetaker as being a nark is just all an act to stir sympathy amongst the crowd (since it becomes very clear and evident that he is not going to inform the police about her)?


I didn't read it as trying to stir smpathy. There is no question that class consciouness is part of what is going on in Act I and the rest of the play perhaps. Perhaps this is why (or one of the reasons) that the English have many more distinct accents: class structure. In America we have never had class distinctions.

[Whifflingpin]

"Hm..I also read Act I today. Is this meant to be a piece of satire? "
Yes

"Also, I find this Flower Girl to be extremely strange. She is dressed as a pauper, her accent reflects her as being a pauper (albeit a moaning, annoying one), yet she seems to be able to pay such things as a taxi fare! Is it out of cheating people"
No, it is because Higgins has just given her all his change - easy come, easy go.


"The significance of the title, Pygmalion, is also something I'm wondering about. At this point it doesn't appear to have any meaning, but perhaps later on."
Yes - .

[Whifflingpin]

"In America we have never had class distinctions"

Ho ho ho

[Nightshade]

"In America we have never had class distinctions"

Ho ho ho

quite...

I wouldnt say never Virgil as far as I know where ever there are people there will be class distinctions in one way or another. A good example would be the sterotype american high school.

:D

[Virgil]

quite...

I wouldnt say never Virgil as far as I know where ever there are people there will be class distinctions in one way or another. A good example would be the sterotype american high school.

:DI'm talking about titles such as lord, lady duke, earl, even knight or gentry. Yes there are distinctions between rich and poor in America. But I'm referring to the specialized sub-cultures that developed because of class distinctions in England, which is different from money disparity. Arstocracy can be relatively poor, but the class and sub-culture distinction remained. Look I'm amazed at how many English novels have as either a prominant theme or a sub theme class issues. Even as late as 1928 D.H. Lawrence wrote Lady Chatterly's Lover. Just about every 19th century novel is about class distinction. Great Expectations is about Pip who is caught between two class worlds. And look at how the people of those two worlds speak differently. Now I would believe that in recent generations it has deminished in importance. But you still have Lady Diana and all the issues she brought, like dating someone who was not in her class once she divorced or even being picked to marry the Queen's son. We don't have anything like that in America. Those kind of things affect people's psyche and the way they think. I can't think of any American novel (I'm sure someone will now point one out, but it has to be rare) that turns on class distinction. Even Henry James's rich Americans are usually rich because of some family business. Mark Twain continuouly made fun of supposed aristocracy and deflated them to satire.

[William Forrest]

From Wikipedia, since you mentioned it:
Pygmalion is a fictional character from the Roman poet Ovid, found in the tenth book of his Metamorphoses. Pygmalion is a sculptor who falls in love with a statue he has made.

Pygmalion was a Cypriot sculptor who carved a woman out of ivory. According to Ovid he is 'not interested in women', but his statue is so realistic that he falls in love with it. He offers the statue presents and eventually prays to Venus. She takes pity on him and brings the statue to life. They marry and have a son, Paphos.

Ovid's mention of Paphos suggests he was drawing on the brief account of Pygmalion and Galatea in Bibliotheke, a Hellenistic encyclopedia of myth formerly attributed to Apollodorus.

[Nightshade]

importance. But you still have Lady Diana and all the issues she brought, like dating someone who was not in her class once she divorced or even being picked to marry the Queen's son.
No it was because she was dating/was pregnat by/ wanted to marry a muslim and she was the mother f the future head of church of E, a bit off dont you think??

I read a book once about class in america there was this 'blueblood" mayflower family and another family who was actually jsut as old came across on the same boat and all but One was consider high class and the other not. The book was about the feud and realtions between these 2 familys and went on all the way to the 19 somthings when one of the families died out. Then you have things like ahh what was it called a 19th century Knight or somthing lke that by E.P> Roe which was about class distinction or actually so was his first novel 'the barriers burned away' which was ste around the chicago fire. HUmm without a home was again about class and how if you were homless and lost everything eventually you be just the same and pride would dissapear. :nod:

Not that Im saying you have class the same way but still class is class.

[Virgil]

No it was because she was dating/was pregnat by/ wanted to marry a muslim and she was the mother f the future head of church of E, a bit off dont you think??

Perhpas the religion was a complicating factor, but don't you think a similar issue would have happened if the guy was a lower class bloke from a blue collar town?


I read a book once about class in america there was this 'blueblood" mayflower family and another family who was actually jsut as old came across on the same boat and all but One was consider high class and the other not. The book was about the feud and realtions between these 2 familys and went on all the way to the 19 somthings when one of the families died out. Then you have things like ahh what was it called a 19th century Knight or somthing lke that by E.P> Roe which was about class distinction or actually so was his first novel 'the barriers burned away' which was ste around the chicago fire. HUmm without a home was again about class and how if you were homless and lost everything eventually you be just the same and pride would dissapear. :nod:
Sounds like the Mayflower family you mention brought their English issues to America where they eventually got dissipated.


Not that Im saying you have class the same way but still class is class.
Yes there are distinctions between rich and poor, but they have not been institutionalized like that.

Let's bring this discussion back to Pygmalion. You don't see the class issues in there in Act I? "Gentleman" contrasted with "Flower girl"? in fact Liza's motivation is to try to move up ion class by changing the way she speaks.

[Whifflingpin]

"Let's bring this discussion back to Pygmalion. You don't see the class issues in there in Act I? "Gentleman" contrasted with "Flower girl"? in fact Liza's motivation is to try to move up ion class by changing the way she speaks."

Good, but, within the play, the matter is complex, (and I'll stick to Act 1 if I can, because the themes develop through the play)

For instance, wealth does not equal class. The fact that Higgins' profession is teaching the nouveau riche how to disguise their origins shows that acquisition of wealth is not sufficient to change someone's class.

However, it also shows that there is mobility between the classes to a greater extent than non-English people may realise. (To use a crude measure - a cursory glance through my 1907 edition of "Burke's Peerage" shows a great number of first generation peerages, as well as a handful that go back to the eleventh century.)

Moreover, within "society," (a nebulous term in itself) there is/was the question as to what makes a gentleman. This was a fascinating subject to Victorian and Edwardian writers. In the play (Act 1 at least) Pickering and Higgins are of the same class, but Pickering behaves as a gentleman would be expected to, while Higgins does not - maybe, there are some hints, e.g. that in spite of himself, he does give money to Eliza.

The speech issue is also not as simple as may be expected. Higgins may teach people to speak like those with whom they want to associate - but he says that shop assistants speak better English than duchesses.

So, let's not be too dogmatic, please.

[Scheherazade]

"In America we have never had class distinctions"

Ho ho ho:D
I wouldnt say never Virgil as far as I know where ever there are people there will be class distinctions in one way or another. A good example would be the sterotype american high school.

:DI think class distinctions exist in every society - even though they are based on different criterias. In the UK, owing to its centuries old past, it was mainly based on aristocracy. In the US, this has taken a different turn; money, rather than family ties, became the main determining factor when it came to determination of classes (not to mention class disctions based on race, for example).

However, not to go off topic, I think, yes, the play deals and questions the class issues; not emphasising the importance of those but rather showing how vain these are since they can be overcome by education and training. A flower girl can pass as a member of a royal family with the proper 'intervention' so these so-called distinctions are baseless since anyone can be 'taught' to behave like someone from upper classes.
Pygmalion was a Cypriot sculptor who carved a woman out of ivory. According to Ovid he is 'not interested in women', but his statue is so realistic that he falls in love with it. He offers the statue presents and eventually prays to Venus. She takes pity on him and brings the statue to life. They marry and have a son, Paphos. If my memory serves me right, he becomes disappointed with women on his island because they have no sense of shame and morally 'loose'.

[Virgil]

:DI think class distinctions exist in every society - even though they are based on different criterias. In the UK, owing to its centuries old past, it was mainly based on aristocracy. In the US, this has taken a different turn; money, rather than family ties, became the main determining factor when it came to determination of classes (not to mention class disctions based on race, for example).

I agree completely with this. In fact that was what I as trying to say. I think of class as an aristocratic concept, titles and such. And I did say that in America we distinguish between income, and yes that is a form of class distinction. Look i'm no sociologist, but I do know literature. I'm amazed at how almost every english novelist prior to 1930's has some form a class conscousness as part of its theme. The characters seemed defined and locked in by their class. Perhaps only Joseph Conrad doesn't, and he wasn't a native englishman. On the other hand American consciousness is defined by an almost infinite land mass where one moves on to, re-establishes oneself anew. Huck Finn I think (I'm going by memory) says "lighting for the territories." And certainly we have never had titles.


A flower girl can pass as a member of a royal family with the proper 'intervention' so these so-called distinctions are baseless since anyone can be 'taught' to behave like someone from upper classes.
I believe that is Shaw's central theme, the freeing capability from this class prison. And yes that is about class.

[Nightshade]

SO what its a continuing of the edwardian theme of what makes a gentleman? Like when they thnik hes a 'tec' only one of the bystanders says look at his boots?

[Whifflingpin]

Ah well - that's an interesting example. There is no definitive answer, but I think the boots in this case (being externals) denote class, rather than being a 'gentleman.' (In different context, perhaps, having clean though shabby boots might symbolise being still a gentleman, albeit in reduced circumstances.)

Pickering's instant defence of the poor and helpless woman against the forces of authority - "Really sir ... Anybody could see that the girl meant no harm." That is the behaviour of a 'gentleman.'

Higgin's rudeness - "Never you mind, they did," "Ha Ha! What a devil of a name!" etc., is in contrast. But..


Higgin's behaviour is shown to be unclassifiable. Pickering, a gentleman, thinks he might be a music hall performer. A bystander says he has come from Hanwell, a lunatic asylum on the outskirts of London.

[Scheherazade]

Since you agree with my previous post, Virgil, we can conclude that class distinction is not necessarily based on aristocracy and in the US as well there are similar incidents and books dealing with this issue:
I can't think of any American novel (I'm sure someone will now point one out, but it has to be rare) that turns on class distinction. The Great Gatsby :p

[Nightshade]

My fair lady was based on this wasnt it? Well actually I know it was but I just want to say it :p So are we still discussing Act1 then?


not the most patiant of people.....:p
But while we are on act1 everyone but Higgins is described in detail why is that?
We dont have an age for him, althou we know Freddy is 20 and Eliza is 18...:goof:

[Virgil]

Since you agree with my previous post, Virgil, we can conclude that class distinction is not necessarily based on aristocracy and in the US as well there are similar incidents and books dealing with this issue:The Great Gatsby :p

Possibly. Certainly Fitgerald is trying to create an old money versus new money distinction. I don't know what it was like in the 1920's but I've never noticed any distinctions between when one acquired wealth. Of course I don't really know many (if any) really wealthy people. :p Yes i would agree with you Scher. I wonder though if Fizgerald is striving to immitate English novels, which he studied well, or he really knew that distinction. Good point, Scher.

[Virgil]

My fair lady was based on this wasnt it? Well actually I know it was but I just want to say it :p So are we still discussing Act1 then?


not the most patiant of people.....:p
But while we are on act1 everyone but Higgins is described in detail why is that?
We dont have an age for him, althou we know Freddy is 20 and Eliza is 18...:goof:

Go a head Night. I've just started Act II, but you don't have to wait. Actually what you say may prod me to read faster. :D

[Pensive]

The written play is better than My Fair Lady in which Eliza's last decision is different.

There was one thing that I noticed and it was the usage of no apostrophe in contractions, even in Professor Higgins's and Pickering's speech. I am a bit confused about it. I have always heard that a sentence having "youre" instead of "you're" is gramatically incorrect. Can someone correct me if I am ignorant of something here?

The play was actually awesome, witty and engaging. I enjoyed reading Mr. Doolittle's dialogues a lot as well. Fascinating book, a bit of a laugh but deals with serious matters like class distinction and the changing of people according to the society they dwell in.

[Nightshade]

The written play is better than My Fair Lady in which Eliza's last decision is different.
.

ha yes which is why I like this sooo much more :nod:

[Whifflingpin]

"I have always heard that a sentence having "youre" instead of "you're" is gramatically incorrect. Can someone correct me if I am ignorant of something here?"

You are correct. Shaw argued, I think, that English spelling should be reformed, but that has not yet happened. So keep using apostrophes correctly, at least until you have the standing of Shaw, and can take up his work.

[Virgil]

Finished Act II. Here's something that struck me. Higgins traces Doolittle's paretage by his speech.


HIGGINS
[to Pickering] Brought up in Hounslow. Mother Welsh, I should think. [Doolittle opens his mouth, amazed. Higgins continues] What do you want, Doolittle?


As I've said in the previous posts that it's a little hard to believe that one can tell from what neighborhood one comes from by the speech, but I guess it's possible. Now to be able to tell where your parents came from and, not only that, to tell where one's mother as opposed to father came from, now that is pushing credibility. ;) I don't believe that's possible.

Also, this seems to echo Sherlock Holmes and Watson, with Higgins being Holmes and Pickering being Watson. Is it just me? Not that it means anything one way or the other. Just a thought.

[grace86]

I have to catch up. Still going through Act I. But I wouldn't be getting through it at all if it weren't for that DailyLit website that someone here on LitNet recommended.

I never realized before that it dealt largely with phonetics.

[Nightshade]

Finished Act II. Here's something that struck me. Higgins traces Doolittle's paretage by his speech.




As I've said in the previous posts that it's a little hard to believe that one can tell from what neighborhood one comes from by the speech, but I guess it's possible. Now to be able to tell where your parents came from and, not only that, to tell where one's mother as opposed to father came from, now that is pushing credibility. ;) I don't believe that's possible.

Also, this seems to echo Sherlock Holmes and Watson, with Higgins being Holmes and Pickering being Watson. Is it just me? Not that it means anything one way or the other. Just a thought.

I woudnt be so sure about that, from one who is a mix its not that hard to tell if the mix is differant enough, sya you take and egptian-nonenglish speaking mix. Usually if the mum is egyptian the arabic will be idomatic and almost abasloutly undisnguishable( who talks to the baby??) but if the mum is a foriegner well then little mistakes pop out and if your good enough you can tell where the persons parent came from by the mistakes thay make.

[Virgil]

I woudnt be so sure about that, from one who is a mix its not that hard to tell if the mix is differant enough, sya you take and egptian-nonenglish speaking mix. Usually if the mum is egyptian the arabic will be idomatic and almost abasloutly undisnguishable( who talks to the baby??) but if the mum is a foriegner well then little mistakes pop out and if your good enough you can tell where the persons parent came from by the mistakes thay make.

Boy it's beginning to sound like Sherlock Holmes more and more. :p

But getting back to your point, if it's the mom talking to the child, and the child is male, wouldn't he talk like the mom. And then there would be no gender difference. How can Higgins distiguish Doolittle's mom as Welch but not the father? I should go back and see what exactly Doolittle has said up to that point.

[Nightshade]

no but the idea is that you devlop the idea of languge within the first few years of life, now Im not sure how higgins would have known this seeing as its a theory from later on but still.

[Virgil]

no but the idea is that you devlop the idea of languge within the first few years of life, now Im not sure how higgins would have known this seeing as its a theory from later on but still.

But when and how would a man lose his mother's language quirks? How can he tell what Doolittle says was handed down from his mother if as a man he will developed his own idiosyncratic quirks?

[grace86]

In Act II, does anyone else agree with me that Higgins is a complete jerk to Eliza? He is frustrating me, I hope he gets better.

Pickering sounds like he is trying to be nice to Eliza, but he's having fun watching Higgins insult her.

[Virgil]

Oh absolutely. I think the point is that despite he being a gentleman by birth he is no gentleman.

[Scheherazade]

Shaw argued, I think, that English spelling should be reformed, but that has not yet happened. So keep using apostrophes correctly, at least until you have the standing of Shaw, and can take up his work.I think it was Shaw's belief that devices such as apostrophe were not necessary for meaningful communication and he also opted for American spellings of most words getting rid of the extra letters;eg, 'color' instead of 'colour'. If I remember correctly he left money in his will for the 'improvement' of the English language but, like WP, says it ain't happening yet! So hold on your apostrophes tight! :D


Also, this seems to echo Sherlock Holmes and Watson, with Higgins being Holmes and Pickering being Watson. Is it just me? Not that it means anything one way or the other. Just a thought.I think this is a very unfair and somewhat superficial analysis of Pickering. He is not in the play as a sidekick or for amusement purposes. He is definitely not there to make Higgings look good. If anything, he reminds us what a good man / gentleman can be like (a little note here: I don't think there are any references in the play that neither Higgins nor Pickering actually belongs to 'aristocracy' (though they are obviously well-off and Upper Class). It is Pickering who offers Eliza a seat or worries about her future and he surely a good influence on both Eliza and Higgins throughout the play.


In Act II, does anyone else agree with me that Higgins is a complete jerk to Eliza? He is frustrating me, I hope he gets better.I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that Higgins is a little boy trapped in a man's body (or acts like one) :D and his unbecoming behaviours and manners are not only towards Eliza but anyone who would not play with his rules or stands his way. He is barely courteous towards his own mother and her guests. So, I don't agree that he is a complete jerk to Eliza; he is what he is at all times.

Look at this description of Higgins in Act II:
He appears in the morning light as a robust, vital, appetizing sort of man of forty or thereabouts, dressed in a professional-looking black frock-coat with a white linen collar and black silk tie. He is of the energetic, scientific type, heartily, even violently interested in everything that can be studied as a scientific subject, and careless about himself and other people, including their feelings. He is, in fact, but for his years and size, rather like a very impetuous baby "taking notice" eagerly and loudly, and requiring almost as much watching to keep him out of unintended mischief. His manner varies from genial bullying when he is in a good humor to stormy petulance when anything goes wrong; but he is so entirely frank and void of malice that he remains likeable even in his least reasonable moments.

- What do you think of Mrs Pearce? I find it interesting that this Middle Class lady is the first person to bring up the subject of Eliza's status within Higgins' household and her future. Even though she is only working for Higgins, she does not mind expressing her opinons when it comes to moral issues regarding Eliza. Shaw giving his approval to Middle Class morality in person of Mrs Pearce?

- The Eynsford Hill family is not as well off as the rest of them but they are still Upper Class and treated with 'respect'. Class does not necessarily come with money and pedigree is more important than material worth?

[Virgil]

I think this is a very unfair and somewhat superficial analysis of Pickering. He is not in the play as a sidekick or for amusement purposes. He is definetely not there to make Higgings look good. If anything, he reminds us what a good man / gentleman can be like (a little note here: I don't think there are any references in the play that neither Higgins nor Pickering actually belongs to 'aristocracy' (though they are obviously well-off and Upper Class). It is Pickering who offers Eliza a seat or worries about her future and he surely a good influence on both Eliza and Higgins throughout the play.


Oh Scher, I wasn't analyzing him in that way. I said it didn't mean anything to the story. I think what was running through my head was that the form of the characters interacting (two gentlemen working together, one of the gentlemen being more acutely skillful in some way) seemed to be common. It seems like a very turn-of-the-century British-y sort of thing.

[Virgil]

I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that Higgins is a little boy trapped in a man's body (or acts like one) :D and his unbecoming behaviours and manners are not only towards Eliza but anyone who would not play with his rules or stands his way. He is barely courteous towards his own mother and her guests. So, I don't agree that he is a complete jerk to Eliza; he is what he is at all times.


Yes, it's very evident in Act III. Look at the way he interacts with his mother.

[Virgil]

Finished Act IV. Does anyone know if there are more than one version of the play? The copy in lit net ends act iv with this:

Eliza smiles for the first time; expresses her feelings by a wild pantomime in which an imitation of Higgins's exit is confused with her own triumph; and finally goes down on her knees on the hearthrug to look for the ring.

But my copy of the play has two extra sentences here:

When she finds it she considers for a moment what to do with it. Finally she flings it down on the dessert stand and goes upstairs in a tearing rage.
The extra sentences makes a world of difference to the meaning of the ending here. I have not been reading the e-version, so I wonder if this is a copy and paste error or there are different versions of the play.

Also my version has extensions to each of the Acts, and Shaw in his preface says may be eliminated for ordinary theatres due to complex staging. They were more intended for the cinema according to the preface.

[Virgil]

I loved Act IV. Shaw captured the Liza's humanity exquisitely. And if we didn't see Higgins as a jackass, before, then surely now. Some intellectuals are so infatuated with their knowledge and thinking that they can't see humanity and life.

[SusanMargaret]

There were two sections in Act I, when I was reminded of Mark Twain’s The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. The first is when the Flower Girl (Eliza) speaks and Shaw portrays her dialect by spelling it phonetically (thank goodness Shaw gave up the attempt as I was afraid I would have great difficulty in reading “Pygmalion”.) Anyway, I immediately thought of The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn where Twain spells phonetically whenever Jim speaks.

The other section of “Pygmalion” that reminded me of Huck Finn was when the Flower girl makes a comment about Higgins and states, “Let him say what he likes. I don’t want to have no truck with him.” In Huck Finn Jim says to Huck, “You could make a fool uv ole Jim wid a lie. Dat truck dah is trash; en trash is what people is dat puts dirt on de head er ...” The point I am trying to make is that I was really surprised to see the word “truck” used in the same way in “Pygmalion” as I thought using the word in such a way was unique slang to the southern part of the US. I did not realize it was used this way in England during approximately the same time period, give or take 40 years.

[Elpis]

As for me I was reminded Defoe's famost novel. But the author's attitude is just the opposite.

[Virgil]

Finished over the weekend. Act V was a little didactic, preachy. But Shaw brings it all to a proper conclusion and while he is hitting you over the head with his point, I didn't find it too irritating. Possibly because Shaw has done a fine job with the characterization that his preachyness kind of glides through. I enjoyed reading the play this time around more than when I was in college.

I'm not sure how to vote yet.

[Shea]

Hi all. I read Pygmalion shortly before I started teaching and the details of it are mingled with scenes from My Fair Lady in my memory. I've enjoyed your discussion on class, however. I've often wondered if a "modern" Pygmalion could be produced? I had students who would talk incorrectly because they knew it would irritate me (only because their talk was reflected in their "formal" essays"). When I'd start handing out homework or something, one student would always ask, "what that is?" It really irritated me coming from him because he knew better and was so smart, but his insistence on "dumbing himself down" for the sake of being popular was frustrating. He has the ability to go on to college, but without even attempting to speak properly, let alone do his work, I doubt he will get there.

I also wonder if linguists are able to pinpoint as accurately as Higgins seemed to, where people are from anymore. I think television has exposed us to such a variety of accents that maybe ways of speaking have become too mingled? I had another student who grew up in the same small town as his classmates, but talked like a California surfer dude.

I surprised myself once. When my husband and I were staying at a hotel once and at breakfast, I heard accents that sounded just like my uncle. Sure enough, they were from the same region of north Britain as Uncle Jack! They were just happy I didn't think they were from Australia like most Americans assumed.

[Virgil]

Just an update. I've got tickets to see a staged version My Fair lady on Friday. It was a Valentine's Day gift for my wife which had to wait until now. Kelsey Grammer (Frasier) plays Higgins. Should be interesting.

[Schokokeks]

Just an update. I've got tickets to see a staged version My Fair lady on Friday. It was a Valentine's Day gift for my wife which had to wait until now. Kelsey Grammer (Frasier) plays Higgins. Should be interesting.
That's a very nice idea for a gift, Virgil. And you can enjoy it, too ;).
Tell us how you liked it !

[Virgil]

That's a very nice idea for a gift, Virgil. And you can enjoy it, too ;).
Tell us how you liked it !

Yes, I will. And yes I get to enjoy it too. ;)

[Virgil]

I saw a performance of My Fair Lady, the musical version of Pygmalion, over the weekend and it was wonderful. I was surprised that the musical follows the play exactly except for the very end where Eliza comes back to Higgins. But other than that the characterization and plot (the scenes are exactly the same) is exactly the same. Of course the music is added. And what lovely music. I recommend one gets the CD of My Fair Lady. I imagine that the CD is of the origianl production from the 1950s with Julie Andrews as Eliza and Rex Harrison as Higgins.

This performance had Kelsey Grammer, the actor from the TV show Fraser, and he was great. The role was perfect for him and he actually sang well. The Eliza role was played by someone named Keli O'Hara, who I had never heard of before. But she was perfect, handling the accents and the non-accent well, and what a beautiful singing voice she has. here's a write up of the performance I attended:


Center Stage: My Fair Lady
By Robin Tabachnick
02 Mar 2007

As the New York Philharmonic presents four concert performances of the classic Lerner & Loewe musical, March 7-10, our correspondent talks with stars Kelsey Grammer and Marni Nixon.

This month (March 7-10) the New York Philharmonic treats its audiences to four performances of Lerner & Loewe's My Fair Lady.

Since 1985, when it performed Sondheim's Follies, the Orchestra has presented several semi-staged masterpieces of American musical theater to great acclaim. For this year's production, it has procured an impressive cast, including Kelli O'Hara (who will portray Eliza Doolittle), a radiantly versatile Tony Award winner who says she is "honored and thrilled to be singing with this amazing orchestra."

But as the lines between "serious music" and "musical entertainment" become ever more blurred, the opportunity also arises to collaborate with stars from other worlds: the realms of TV, film, and opera. In a cast that includes Ms. O'Hara as well as Broadway veterans Charles Kimbrough (Colonel Pickering) and Brian Dennehy (Alfred P. Doolittle), nothing illustrates this better than Kelsey Grammer (Professor Henry Higgins) and Marni Nixon (Mrs. Higgins, Henry's mother), who come to this production from very different artistic backgrounds, and happily join forces here.

For Mr. Grammer, best known for his 20-year run in the title role of the TV hit series Frasier, this engagement represents the marriage of his love of language and his love of classical music. "I grew up listening to the New York Philharmonic," he says. "I used to go to Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts, so it's a joy to return to the place that awakened my early imagination and fostered my love of classical music."

As for his love of language, he describes himself as "a huge fan of Shaw." Mr. Grammer's knowledge of the playwright's works gives him wonderful insight into Higgins's character, who, he says, is not unlike his old friend Frasier. "Both are high-strung, opinionated intellectuals lacking substance," he declares. "Shaw appreciates the male dilemma; he thinks most of us are children, so Higgins is petulant and egotistical and only when he surrenders to a relationship does he stand a chance.

"It's a coming-of-age performance," Mr. Grammer continues, "where one can be boyish, impish, and full of oneself -- all charming features if done deftly! It's daunting," he adds, "because I'm stepping into Rex Harrison's role, and one will always be in some way derivative, but I'm going to try to get Kelsey in there!"

Marni Nixon describes herself as "the first of the crossover artists." While classical music aficionados might know her for her recordings of music by modern composers, including Stravinsky, who admired her singing, film lovers grew up with her voice in their ears when she dubbed (among several great movies) Audrey Hepburn's singing voice in the 1964 film of My Fair Lady. "There were millions of barriers to break down, because the contemporary-music world looked down on the theater and film aspects of my career," says Ms. Nixon. "We were not yet in an age when musical theater was equated with high art; they felt it wasn't work to be an actress. That's why it's kind of an inside joke for me to be doing Mrs. Higgins. She doesn't have a song, but I'm an actress too, and it's not beneath me. Sometimes you act, sometimes you sing. You use everything at your disposal."

Like Mr. Grammer, Ms. Nixon has associations -- albeit different ones -- with the Philharmonic. Her long-standing relationship with the Orchestra began with her 1960 debut under Leonard Bernstein. "These are superb players -- unmatched anywhere," says Ms. Nixon. "They always had a certain bright, aggressive sound that thrilled me! And I just adored Lenny Bernstein," she recalls fondly. "He was so 'with you' when you sang; he breathed with you and was so a part of you."

For Mr. Grammer, this engagement marks his New York Philharmonic debut. "It's a huge thing," he exclaims, "so flattering and so terrifying -- but what an experience for me to stand on the stage that so delighted me as a boy -- to complete that circle," he says with feeling.


Robin Tabachnick writes frequently about the arts.
http://www.playbillarts.com/features/article/6091.html

[Virgil]

And here's a critic's review of the performance, if you don't trust my opinion. ;)



My Fair Lady
Reviewed By: Michael Portantiere

Kelli O'Hara and Kelsey Grammer in My Fair Lady
(© Chris Lee)
Kelsey Grammer had a huge flop on his hands when he tackled Macbeth on Broadway in 2000; the critics savaged his performance and the public stayed away in droves, apparently having no desire to see the man they loved as TV's Frasier Crane in the role of a morally bankrupt, murderous Scottish king. But no such major disconnect exists with regard to Grammer's appearance as Professor Henry Higgins in the New York Philharmonic's semi-staged concert presentation of the musical theater masterpiece My Fair Lady.
With a score by Frederick Loewe and book and lyrics by Alan Jay Lerner, based on the play Pygmalion by George Bernard Shaw, My Fair Lady presents a central male character who's highly intelligent, witty, egotistical, fussy, and often exasperated. All these traits were shared by Frasier, if not the professor's unabashed misogyny, and Grammer plays them to the hilt. He also sings the part very well in his own style, matching pitches far more often than did Rex Harrison, the original Higgins. Grammer was over-parted when he did Sweeney Todd in L.A. some years ago, but Higgins is a much better fit for him in every way.

That Kelli O'Hara possesses the glorious singing voice, first-class acting talent, and extraordinary physical beauty necessary for the role of Eliza Doolittle is a given. Nonetheless, some of her fans may have wondered if the young woman who triumphed in such shows as The Light in the Piazza, The Pajama Game, and My Life With Albertine would be convincing as the Cockney flower girl whom Higgins teaches to speak with Received Pronunciation and to behave like a lady of the highest breeding. As it turns out, O'Hara is almost vowel, diphtong, and consonant-perfect as both the lower-class guttersnipe and the transformed Eliza -- and her singing is so beautiful as to withstand comparison with Julie Andrews, the role's legendary creator. (O'Hara's soaring rendition of "I Could Have Danced All Night" virtually stops the show.)

Brian Dennehy's cockney elocutions in the role of Eliza's dad, Alfred P. Doolittle, are more indicated than organic; but his characterization is spot-on in every other way, and the audience clearly adores him. Charles Kimbrough is utterly charming as Colonel Hugh Pickering, Higgins' cohort. Philippe Castagner as Freddy Eynsford-Hill sings "On the Street Where You Live" with refulgent tone, though he's rather stiff in the character's spoken dialogue; Joe Grifasi and Michael J. Farina burst with comic energy as Doolittle's cohorts, Harry and Jamie; Tim Jerome is properly oily as Zoltan Karpathy; and Marni Nixon, who dubbed the singing voice of Eliza for Audrey Hepburn in the 1964 film version of My Fair Lady, is regal and delightfully droll as Mrs. Higgins.

Director James Brennan and choreographer Peggy Hickey do exemplary work here. Gail Baldoni's gorgeous costumes are far more elaborate than anything you'll see in the City Center Encores! series, and Ray Klausen supplies more set pieces than you'd expect, all of this adding greatly to the professionalism of the production. David Ives is credited with the concert adaptation of the script, which basically consisted of excising approximately 15-20 minutes of dialogue. Even with all these cuts, the first act runs a full hour and a half! But with a show like this one, the time flies by.

All-star, limited-run concert versions of musicals tend to receive precious little rehearsal, so it's not surprising that the first of My Fair Lady's four scheduled performances was a bit rough in spots. Grammer was late for one entrance, there were flubbed lines and lyrics from various folks, and the singers were sometimes a beat or two ahead of the orchestra; it seemed as if they weren't entirely comfortable with the tempi set by conductor Rob Fisher, or perhaps an excess of opening-night adrenalin caused the rushing.

No such raggedness exists within the orchestra itself; Fisher leads the Philharmonic in a lush and thrilling account of this magnificent score. To hear Robert Russell Bennett and Philip J. Lang's fabulous orchestrations of Loewe's music played live by a world-class symphony is a rare treat. (The equally great dance music arrangements are by Trude Rittman.)

Sadly, the current economics of the theater make it unlikely that a fully satisfying, production of My Fair Lady will ever again be seen on Broadway. With that in mind, you are advised to take this opportunity during the all-too-brief period in which it's being offered.

http://www.theatermania.com/content/...fm/story/10261

[Schokokeks]

That sounds lovely, Virgil. I hope you know how much you benefit from living in New York, where I imagine excellent performances are not a rare event :).

I saw a performance of Julius Caesar in Dublin, which was fabulous as well, very impressive fighting scenes and great decorum :).

[Virgil]

That sounds lovely, Virgil. I hope you know how much you benefit from living in New York, where I imagine excellent performances are not a rare event :).

I saw a performance of Julius Caesar in Dublin, which was fabulous as well, very impressive fighting scenes and great decorum :).

Yes, I know I'm spoiled. I would love to see Julius Ceasar. "Friends, Romans, country, lend me you ears..."

[ES33]

first of all thank you for this nice sub.

second i have read the play and watch it as well and it was very great one

but i wanna littil help here if you can

a research about:

1) Class Distinction.

2) The character of Eliza ( the flower girl ) as a fighter and a feminist.

and who is going to help me thanks now and after.

[white lily]

:) Hello every one
I've just signed up in this website coz i saw this wonderful subject

I've finished reading the play lately as a study course when I came across this website but toooo late to discuss with you

good luck every one

[HerGuardian]

hi all

i've just finished reading it this week.

it's really an interesting play, especially that it's my first reading of the year along with the stupid novel The Alchemist. I enjoyed reading it and exploring its themes which some of them are related to today's world. Its language was rather simple for me- English is a foreign language over here -. I wished it was possible to discuss it with you people but it was your las year's reading.


I wish you all the best of luck.