Instrumental Music: Yes or No?

[brainstrain]

In the church I grew (and am still growing, I suppose. But not spiritually) up in, they think that is goes against God's Will.

I once recieved a notecard which listed the verses that proved this to be true. In all those verses, not once did it say anything prohibiting Instrumental Music.

What I love about conservative churches is that the bible verses they use to prove many conservative believe actually disprove them.

Better holy and ignorant than unholy and wise I suppose...

But what are your thoughts on this mildly controversial issue? I personally Believe it does not matter, but I know from experience many people are very opionated...

edit - You can't tell from this post, but I was searching for answers through this post, not just wanting a good discussion. I found my answers ^_^

[Whifflingpin]

Psalm 150. Laudate Dominum
PRAISE God in his holiness : praise him in the firmament of his power.
2. Praise him in his noble acts : praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3. Praise him in the sound of the trumpet : praise him upon the lute and harp.
4. Praise him in the timbral and dance : praise him upon the strings and pipe.
5. Praise him upon the well-tuned cymbals : praise him upon the loud cymbals.
6. Let every thing that hath breath : praise the Lord.

[Pendragon]

I dislike to say anything downing anothers's way of belief. I can find nothing in the scripture prohibiting music in churches, but I have seen it taken overboard the opposite way as well. Still I read where heaven will be filled with musical insturments of all kinds, used to praise God forever. Will some then fill out of place? I myself feel that I would gladly add my poor guitar skills to the other saints in praise of God. If people dislike my guitar or keyboard playing of a hymn, I don't play it for them but for God. Don't people understand that what you do for God it doesn't matter about you, He is glad to recieve it? David's harp was dear to God before he was annointed as King, and for as long as he could play it. :)

[subterranean]

Yes, absolutely!

[brainstrain]

Psalm 150. Laudate Dominum
PRAISE God in his holiness : praise him in the firmament of his power.
2. Praise him in his noble acts : praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3. Praise him in the sound of the trumpet : praise him upon the lute and harp.
4. Praise him in the timbral and dance : praise him upon the strings and pipe.
5. Praise him upon the well-tuned cymbals : praise him upon the loud cymbals.
6. Let every thing that hath breath : praise the Lord.

Hmm...I don't quite see how this relates to the issue. I'll try to decipher it...
It doesn't matter how you praise God, just praise him? Sounds good to me ^_^

Also, about half those verses have been made into songs that I learned either this year or last year in Choir

"Let everything that hath breath" Is an amazing song, one of my all time favorites

"Praaaise him with the timbrel, Praaaise him with the dance" are the lyrics to a fun gospel song I learned last year...

sorry, a bit off topic.

Pendragon, you said what I think wifflingpin was trying to say. And I agree. My church has taken it too far one way, and many new churches have taken it too far in the other.

Even though all these people serve the same God, the interprations of the bible are so varying its disputable wether they're reading the same book.

Would it have killed the prophets be a bit more straightforward? Probably.

Anyway, this is really one of those topics you can never resolve. Conservatives could never be convinced that their beliefs (they aren't OUR beliefs, they're what the BIBLE told us to do) are misguided. Non-conservatives just think the conservatives are a bit soft in the head (which, after growing up in a conservative-beyond-all-reason church, I would have to agree with.)

In closing, I want to say I don't mean to sterotype either conservatives or non conservatives, I just use those terms becuase it takes a long time to type "People who believe that instrumental music is ungodly" and vice versa. I know not all Conservatives and Non-conservatives hold the same beliefs.

[Whifflingpin]

"Hmm...I don't quite see how this relates to the issue. I'll try to decipher it..."

I thought the question was whether instrumental music should be used in worship.

The psalm (the last one in the book of Psalms of David, in the Old Testament,) encourages you to use trumpets, lutes, harps, timbrels (whatever they are,) stringed and wind instruments and cymbals. So there is biblical approval for the full orchestra - strings, woodwind, brass and percussion - to be used in worship.

Of course, the argument went on in the time of David, king and psalmist, - Those whom you might call conservative were very scathing when David worshipped the Lord by dancing. Some things don't change much in 3000 years.

.

[brainstrain]

Ooh yes sorry. I totally missed that.

Growing up in a conservative church really keeps coming back and biting me in the buttox...rather annoying. I've been reading those verses all my life and never once were they related to this issue.

I think, if our preacher was presented with this arguement, he would say that it is in the Old Testament, so it doesn't mater. I say that the Bible never says not to, and (as you pointed out) actually encourages it.

Thanks for the reassurance everyone! Ya'll made some great points ^_^

I guess the final consensus would be: It doesn't matter, as long as no one thinks they are better than the other for doing it differently.

[grace86]

I believe there is strength in music and that God uses it to touch people-God used all mediums to reach people. My church believes the same. As one of the worship leaders at my church, I can see how the spirit comes down and touches the members of my church, and myself and the others on the team can feel it as well.

Sorry if I am too "religiousy" for some in my explanation, but I do not agree with prohibiting music in certain churches. A person can worship in so many ways.

Psalm 146:2 "I will praise the Lord all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live"

...instrumental and vocal music just create another way to worship, but it is not the only way it could be done.

[mtpspur]

Many of the Psalms contain the heading 'To the chief Musician-- (Psalms 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, etc etc. Stringed instruments are mentioned. Psalm 137:2 mentions the harps being hung on the willows. (During the captivity of the Jews they were taunted to play some of their music for the amusement of their captors.)

I have been encouraged that the Bible says make a joyful NOISE unto the Lord because its all my singing talent is able to do though the long suffering wife is a good alto if she'ld train more but she gave up choir years ago in spite of my protests.

Oddly enough my spiritual hero Spurgeon was very against things like organs in the church because he felt it was showy and not spiritual and I think in the context of his sermons he believed it distracted people from worshiping in their hearts. One of the few times I agree but also disagree with him. Depends on the hearer/worshiper I suppose.

[Whifflingpin]

"I think, if our preacher was presented with this argument, he would say that it is in the Old Testament, so it doesn't matter. I say that the Bible never says not to, and (as you pointed out) actually encourages it."

I think your preacher might fairly argue that anything not advised in the New Testament should not be used in Christian worship. (I would not agree with him, but I think such an argument could be justified.) So the Lord's prayer, remembering the Last Supper and singing, for example, are all required or encouraged in the New Testament. Things not mentioned are not necessary, and may be harmful if they distract from worship rather than enhance it.

More harmful, though, in my opinion, than viols or organs, would be twisting words of scripture to make it appear that such things are forbidden. If Jesus had meant to condemn the use of musical instruments, he would have done so clearly enough.

.

[Pendragon]

I guess the final consensus would be: It doesn't matter, as long as no one thinks they are better than the other for doing it differently.Best statement I have heard yet. Paul when asked about eating of meat says, Rom. 14:3 "Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eath not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him

4. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

It's not about the way you worship, it's that you worship. You want to sing acapella, it can be beautiful. You want to sing with accompanist, it can be beautiful. Twice we are told to sing, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. Just worship your way. :angel:

[brainstrain]

"Best statement I have heard yet."

Aw, shucks. I do have my (very rare) moments :lol:

Lots of people made some interesting (and enlightening)points, thanks so much for posting ^_^.

"Oddly enough my spiritual hero Spurgeon was very against things like organs in the church because he felt it was showy and not spiritual and I think in the context of his sermons he believed it distracted people from worshiping in their hearts. One of the few times I agree but also disagree with him. Depends on the hearer/worshiper I suppose"

Yes, I agree those humongeous organs are often more for show than worship. In the largest worship building in my area, though, the Centrum, you can barely tell it's there. THAT is how music is supposed to function in the church (to an extent, I realize that many people who can't (or won't) sing praise god only though instuments, there is nothing wrong with that.).

Instrumental Music in a church should never drown out or replace the joyful voices of the congregation. I also have a problem with chruch choirs. If you come to church to hear the choir sing, than its nothing more than a concert. EVERYONE, no matter how bad (or good, in my case =P) a voice they have, should sing praise to the lord with all their heart.

Maybe, one day, when I'm older and wiser and exponentially more confident, I'll come back and try to allow my church to see the truth...someday...

For now i'll be content to know that I've found the one small grain of truth in a beach of mysteries ^_^

Again, thank you everyone. LitNet is an amazing place.

[Miss Darcy]

This is almost wholly off topic, but in 16th century Italy instrumental music began to flourish in churches, most famously under the Gabrielis. It was Giovanni Gabrieli who first specified the use of particular instruments in the music (before a part would be played on whatever instrument fitted within its range). St Marks' Cathedral was particularly renowned for its sponsorship of fine musicians.

I suppose one can only draw from this that in 16th century Italy they thought instrumental music (usually combined with vocal) was suitable for sacred purposes...

Departing from Renaissance Italy, however, organ accompaniment is generally frequent in sacred vocal music. Think Mozart's masses and Handel's Messiah, for example. And though not "sacred" in the conventional way, Beethoven's 9th symphony also proves that the combination of voices and instruments can make way for an ineffably moving experience which, to me, is really the closest one can get to the Ultimate in the realm of the senses.

Darcy

[Adudaewen]

I sincerely belive that music is a natural expression of spirituality. It's universal, and I think it is vital to the growth of the churches. Its a lot easier to touch someone's heart with music than with words.

[Whifflingpin]

"Its a lot easier to touch someone's heart with music than with words."

Yes but .... What are you touching?? Are you just getting at emotions rather than something truly more spiritual?? Is the music, therefore, a barrier rather than a path?

Answer, of course, it can, like any other human activity, be either. Done for God's sake, it's a path - done for its own sake, it's a barrier. If you go to church for the feeling aroused by the music, that may be no different from going to a concert. If your worship of God overflows into music, it may be deeper worship.

Anyway, what I am saying is - do not confuse an emotional experience with a spiritual experience.

[Adudaewen]

Very fair observation, I have to say. And of course, you're right. It could be either. And I agree with you, however, dont you agree that emotion and spirituality are tied together?

[Whifflingpin]

"dont you agree that emotion and spirituality are tied together?"

Ummerrrtch umm. I think....

There is a relationship between them, and it is not always easy to discern where one finishes and the other begins. But - But, they are not the same thing.

I can't give a proper distinction, only try an example or two (bad logic, but fair illustration.)

There is little emotional difference between singing rousing hymns in a cathedral and singing the club chant at a football match. In both cases, the emotion comes from the music, the crowd of like-minded people, the belonging. There is nothing wrong, and much good, in that. But in the football game, the human endeavour and fellowship are the end in themselves, whereas, in the cathedral, they ought to be a springboard towards something beyond human, even if we are limited in expression and feeling within our human capabilities.

You may feel angry if someone steps on your toe, without apologising. Jesus was angry when he observed the commercial uses to which the Temple courtyard was being put. Same emotion, but hardly the same spirituality.

There is a difference between doing something because it makes you feel good, and doing the same thing because it is good. [Afterthought: doing the good thing sometimes makes you feel good (sometimes it makes you feel wretched, but that's not relevant) If you do the thing because it is good, then that is an act of piety, and the good feeling is an instant and acceptable reward - if you do it in order to feel good, then that is a sin, and a step on the road of self-indulgence and hypocrisy.]

So, back to the topic, I can feel some sympathy with those who argue that music in worship should be kept simple, because, when you focus on the skill or beauty of the music you are likely to lose sight of the object of the worship. Equally, I sympathise with those who find the pure sound of a chorister's voice an echo of the harmony of the spheres, or who hear God's voice in the thunder of an organ.

Back to Paul (via Pendragon) Rom. 14:3 "Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him"
.

[brainstrain]

A good point Whifflingpin. Many modern churches have massive gymnasiums, pools, recreation centers, all to "draw people to God". And even if those places to cause people to join the church, is it for spirituality or sociality?

Too many churches have amazing music, but neglect the rest of worship. My church, sadly, neglects the music. We sing softly, and usually off-key. All we need is a piano...but they have determined that instrumental music is an unquestionable sin, and can never be used...

Ah well. Thanks for the insightful discussion ^_^

-edit: that came off a bit wrong. God doesn't care if we are on key, or even if we sing loud, but what does worry me is that many don't sing with emotion. They mumble and hum, never really getting into the song. If we had some accompanyment they would at least sing out, and the rest (i believe) would come naturally...

[Whifflingpin]

"God doesn't care if we are on key, or even if we sing loud, but what does worry me is that many don't sing with emotion. They mumble and hum, never really getting into the song. "

Right and right again.

Whether you worship God in speech or song or with trumpets, the important thing is that it should be done with all your heart, not necessarily "well" in human terms, but your best.

No-one could be worshipping God in mumbled hymns, they would simply be going through some dead ritual that they had forgotten the meaning of.

[byquist]

Didn't Saul call on David to play the harp to get him over his headaches?